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Zethal
26-11-2006, 20:57
Chariots, in the new Orc book it does not mention that it costs a special choice to mount a Character on a chariot. Do orc chariots count as a specail choice while being ridden by a character or not?

Wild Squigs, "If the Unit flees, ...."
If the Squigs break from combat and flee, do they explode after then flee or before.
And, Since the unit "flees" is there a persue oppotunity, or do they just blow up on the spot and leave units fighting it where they are.

Festus
26-11-2006, 21:01
Hi

Characters in chariots do not take a special choice as well.

And Squig Herds do not take a flee move. They simply *explode* on the spot.

Festus

edit: I just saw that you talked about breaking: Yes, there is a pursuit/flee roll after the unit is broken.
If the pursures roll higher, the unit is wiped out. If they dont, it *explodes* as soon as it turns around. Ka....bOOOM

kaulem
14-12-2006, 13:35
Festus, I had come to the same conclusion as you, but the new army builder file add's 1 special choice when I choose a chariot for my characters....

Sherlocko
14-12-2006, 14:14
I think he misunderstood. The character donīt count as a special choice but the chariot does. See, you buy the chariot as normal and then just replace a crew member, so it is still a chariot purchased.

Chariot + Hero =special and hero slot.

JonnyTHM
14-12-2006, 14:34
No, the rule saying that he is mounted on a chariot 'chosen as normal' is gone. There is no reason from the rules that it would count as a special slot.

Ganymede
14-12-2006, 14:42
Technically, the rules really give no indication as to whether the character's chariot costs a special slot either way. The lack of any specific wording in this situation creates a vague connundrum in which the only definite answer is through consensus.

Flame
14-12-2006, 14:58
not really.

Imagine you were a player new to Fantasy, and had the new O&G book. Why would you ever think that it took up a special slot?

cookiescrumble
14-12-2006, 15:23
In the book, it doesn't say it uses an extra slot, so i assume it doesn't.

Also the army builder file is incorrect, says Skarsniks prodder is Power level 3 :rolleyes: .

Doc Havoc
14-12-2006, 16:11
I see no indication that a character in a chariot would take up a special slot.

The new Army Builder file, while useful, is still very fulll of bugs. I have had to edit about 10 things in mine thus far. (And that is just out of the units that I have actually used.)

Assume nothing, and check the books if in doubt.

Arnizipal
14-12-2006, 16:49
Also the army builder file is incorrect, says Skarsniks prodder is Power level 3 :rolleyes: .
So go bug Anarchistica about it. :p

DeathlessDraich
14-12-2006, 17:36
On the original question, I agree with everyone else.

Exceptions in other army books are clearly stated:
DE pg 26; Highborn, Noble: "... may be mounted in a CO chariot included as a Special choice, replacing one of the crew"

Slightly less explicit in BOC:
BOC's characters in Tuskgor chariots: " may ride a TC chosen as normal from the Beasts units section in the army list, displacing etc.."

greenskin
14-12-2006, 18:36
So Festus (and others), can I take three Big Bosses mounted on chariots (along with four more chariots for specials) and move my Big Bosses out of their chariots and into infantry units on turn one? That would leave me with seven sweet chariots.

On another note, since the chariot is now simply an upgrade, if the Big Boss is removed from the table does the chariot get removed as well? It isn't a monsterous mount.

How about chariot upgrades. Can the Big Boss' chariots get extra crew? I would think so.

The new O&G book is pitifully written if they intended it to be uncontroversial.

Funny Story -- You've all heard stories about GW staff but this one is really out there. I called a battle bunker last Sunday. I was this, "If the Big Boss is removed as a casualty from missile fire, the chariot continues to go on as normal and any further missile fire will be randomized against the crew." I said, are you sure. He said yes he was. I couldn't rationalize asking any further questions at this point, plus I was on the verge of laughing convulsions so I hung up.

DeathlessDraich
14-12-2006, 18:45
1) A character cannot voluntarily leave its mount. IIRC.

Mr Hardehar
14-12-2006, 18:56
excuse me deathlessdraich, the topic is"orc question,chariots and squigs."

but greenskin, bout the chariots,ive got the ne O&G in front of me,ok so some people dont trust,it but im reading into it here, and orc boar chariots are in the "special units "section.and orcs shamans and warbosses can ride in a orc boar chariot for 80 points,dsplacing one crew,and the same with goblins,but with a goblin wolf chariot, and an additional cost of 60 points.Just read the options.they are still in teh characters and lords section,so you still use up that slot.and by paying for the original chariot,you use up a special slot aswell.big boss s chariots dont get extra crew.it says he replaces one member of the crew.the bigboss is put onto the chariot,not it onto him,so i wouldnt call it an upgrade.but the chariot would i assume carry on fighting,only one of its crew has died.with anything,as long as you have some crew,it works.ok, slightly simplified but your chariot would live.

squigs.isnt there a new rule which means they just run riot and kill loads of things with sum good rolls?p 26 of the new army book, in the night goblin squig herds special rules under"wild squigs"
hope that helps

ps.about the army book,its not badly written,you just need to apply the rule book,your own common sense and read into the words a bit.dont rely on just one page.thats why theres a whole supplement.

greenskin
14-12-2006, 19:15
but greenskin, bout the chariots,ive got the ne O&G in front of me,ok so some people dont trust,it but im reading into it here, and orc boar chariots are in the "special units "section.and orcs shamans and warbosses can ride in a orc boar chariot for 80 points,dsplacing one crew,and the same with goblins,but with a goblin wolf chariot, and an additional cost of 60 points.
If you read what you've written, you are saying that you have to pay 80 points for an OBC and another 80 points for the option that allows a Big Boss to ride in it. I doubt that is the case and I don't think that is what you mean. If you direct me to the words that are written that is technically what it says.


Just read the options.they are still in teh characters and lords section,so you still use up that slot.and by paying for the original chariot,you use up a special slot aswell.big boss s chariots dont get extra crew.it says he replaces one member of the crew.the bigboss is put onto the chariot,not it onto him,so i wouldnt call it an upgrade.
If you are saying that the chariot takes up a special slot then it is only fair to also use the description of the chariot that says any chariot may take extra crew for five points.


ps.about the army book,its not badly written,you just need to apply the rule book,your own common sense and read into the words a bit.dont rely on just one page.thats why theres a whole supplement.
That is precisely why it is badly written.

warlord hack'a
14-12-2006, 19:35
I see no problem: If you mount an orc character on a chariot then it does not say anywhere that this choice takes up a special slot. And I would rule that as it is bought as a mount, like a boar or a wyvern, the character can not voluntarily leave it, so he can only leave it when the chariot or wyvern is slain.

So yes you can take 4 boar chariots as special choices and three extra chariots as mounts for three big bosses for a total of 7 chariots, but if you like them that much play tomb kings ;-).

Parka boy
14-12-2006, 23:33
I agree no where that I can see does it indicate a special for a character's chariot lets hope its not yet another mistake. Goblin fanatics being killed by roads and hills was too much for me.

The rule book is very badly written and to add to it how many old pictures are there in it where rules could be?

Ganymede
15-12-2006, 02:29
On the original question, I agree with everyone else.

Exceptions in other army books are clearly stated:
DE pg 26; Highborn, Noble: "... may be mounted in a CO chariot included as a Special choice, replacing one of the crew"

Slightly less explicit in BOC:
BOC's characters in Tuskgor chariots: " may ride a TC chosen as normal from the Beasts units section in the army list, displacing etc.."

So you need to read seeral other armybooks in order to understand that the chariots in the orc book don't require special slots?

how about you do like Flaime said and pretend you are new to warhammer and reread the orc book with a fresh perspective. You'll find that the situation is thoroughly ambiguous, and without a concrete answer.

DeathlessDraich
15-12-2006, 08:49
So you need to read seeral other armybooks in order to understand that the chariots in the orc book don't require special slots?

how about you do like Flaime said and pretend you are new to warhammer and reread the orc book with a fresh perspective. You'll find that the situation is thoroughly ambiguous, and without a concrete answer.

I did say I agree with everyone else which means I agreed with Flame (and you) that a newcomer would find it ambiguous. Then again very little of Warhammer is precise or written precisely and I suppose it will always remain that way.

Tutore
15-12-2006, 09:43
It doesn´t count as a special slot, as it was said by most. There´s no reason to read old edition books to say otherwise.

Asq_Dak
15-12-2006, 10:00
how about you do like Flaime said and pretend you are new to warhammer and reread the orc book with a fresh perspective. You'll find that the situation is thoroughly ambiguous, and without a concrete answer.

Now I'm confused, but what you just said is contradictary to what Flame said:


Imagine you were a player new to Fantasy, and had the new O&G book. Why would you ever think that it took up a special slot?

He says with no knowledge of other army books or previous armybooks there is NO reason to consider the chariot a character rides a special choice.

I am unfamiliar with the rule, so cannot personally comment.

Festus
15-12-2006, 10:27
Hi

Nothing in the book tells you to fill a special slot with a character's chariot. This was repeatedly stated. And it is the case.

A character may not dismount during a battle, so this point is moot.

And it is a monstrous mount, as it is a mount that has more than 1 W on its profile, although it is not a monster, though. Monster is defined differently.

To say that the rules are ambiguous is not true: The rules are rather clear. Only if you infer your knowledge of the old ArmyBook, the rule becomes ambiguous. So the answer is simple: don't!

Taken on its own, the O&G ArmyBook, does not lead you to believe that the character's chariot takes up a special slot.

Whoever says otherwise might as well prove it with the relevant quotes from the ArmyBook.

...and the AB being wrong does prove nothing, as it happens all too often :(

Greetings
Festus

DeathlessDraich
15-12-2006, 14:32
excuse me deathlessdraich, the topic is"orc question,chariots and squigs."
.

Yes, I am well aware of the title of the thread. My reply was to greenskins query of characters leaving a chariot. This cannot be done as it is 1 unit/model which cannot be split asunder.
A chariot is a mount and therefore a character cannot voluntarily dismount off a chariot.

Ganymede
15-12-2006, 22:06
Hi

Nothing in the book tells you to fill a special slot with a character's chariot. This was repeatedly stated. And it is the case.


"Its true because its true," is not an arguement.


Here's a little scenario of a new player constructing an orc army...

"Ahh, an orc warboss! Now I definitely want one of those leading my army." A little boy named kevin exclaimed as he leafed through the 'Lords' section of his orc book. "But what will I equip him with?"

Kevin scratched his chin as he pondered his options, "It says here that I can mount him in an orc chariot and he'll displace one of the crew members. That sounds excellent, now all I need is to research the chariot's rules."

Flipping through the index, he finally stumbles upon the relevent entry. "It says here that a chariot will take up one of my special slots. This chariot is clearly what the orc warboss' rules were referring to after all."


On the other side of the coin, the subtle wording change in the orc book could very well be indicative of a concious decision on the part of the orc armybook author. Though, is it a good precedent to allow subtle shifts of grammar to change rules?

As seen here, the situation is wholly ambiguous, and the best way to come to a solution is to have a talk with your tournament organizer or gaming group, since absolutely nothing official has been said of the issue.

Yellow Commissar
15-12-2006, 23:56
"Its true because its true," is not an arguement.

No, but it is a true statement. And, why are we arguing?

The thing is, is that it wouldn't be an issue, if you didn't make it one. The chariot is a mount option for the character. The wording is completely different from previous AB's where the chariot had to be selected as an army choice. The O&G AB has none of this wording. It is clearly different from other chariot rules that have been written in the past. Just let them take the stupid chariot. Are you really going to try and tell your friend who plays O&G, that he has to use a special slot to mount his warlord on a chariot? I think not.

Ganymede
16-12-2006, 00:11
So you're saying that the only way to understand the relevent rule is to put it in context with the rules in other armybooks? Doesn't that set a dangerous precedent considering that each army book is written by a different author, and that some of these books even span game editions?

Additionally I want you to realise that I am not actually arguing in favor of orc chariots taking special slots. I am simply pointing out facts that people love to ignore when they take a specific position in this debate. overall, I am trying to point out that this situation is nowhere near cut-and-dry.

Yellow Commissar
16-12-2006, 02:44
So you're saying that the only way to understand the relevent rule is to put it in context with the rules in other armybooks? Doesn't that set a dangerous precedent considering that each army book is written by a different author, and that some of these books even span game editions?

Additionally I want you to realise that I am not actually arguing in favor of orc chariots taking special slots. I am simply pointing out facts that people love to ignore when they take a specific position in this debate. overall, I am trying to point out that this situation is nowhere near cut-and-dry.

What!?!

No. I'm not saying that. I'm saying what I'm saying. Which is that an Orc Big Boss riding in a Boar chariot does not fill a Special slot.

I'm saying that one would have to be exceptionally rude to push this sort of restriction on someone. Especially when it is not warranted by the written rule.

I definitely didn't say what you said I said.

And, actually, it is cut and dry.

Call it whatever you will, and play however you like, but you cannot convince me to tell my friends who play O&G that thier characters in chariots take up a special slot when they don't!

JonnyTHM
16-12-2006, 06:56
I wouldn't call the exclusion of the words "selected as normal from the appropriate section" as a 'subtle shift of grammar'.

RAW is the buzzword of the day, and there is nowhere in the rule as written that would indicate it takes an extra slot.

'Little Kevin' just needs to be careful about reading the rules as they're set out.

All of this would be so much easier if the orcs had a dragon. Then when it said "may ride a dragon for +500 points, which will take up an additional hero slot", there would be a simple contrast against the chariot that doesn't say "which will take up a special slot as normal". But instead that's just an appeal to other army books again at this point... so we return to, RAW.

Festus
16-12-2006, 07:06
Nothing in the book tells you to fill a special slot with a character's chariot. This was repeatedly stated. And it is the case.



"Its true because its true," is not an arguement.


Whoever says otherwise might as well prove it with the relevant quotes from the ArmyBook.

Greetings
a still waiting Festus

DeathlessDraich
16-12-2006, 09:47
I think the point Ganymede is making is how easily a 'beginner' could misinterpret the rules, which is true.
Beginners could easily surmise that units can be placed on top of each other as Gav Thorpe mentioned but no Warhammer player of some experience interprets this as allowable.

Ganymede: The rules are not clear but in this case, I would say (and all the contributors of this thread bar one, agree) it is clear enough.

T10
16-12-2006, 11:32
Slightly less explicit in BOC:
BOC's characters in Tuskgor chariots: " may ride a TC chosen as normal from the Beasts units section in the army list, displacing etc.."

The Tuskgor chariots are either Core or Special, so they would have to be less specific ("as normal") or be extremely specific ("as a Core choice or a Special choice depending on...")

-T10

Ganymede
16-12-2006, 11:43
I think the point Ganymede is making is how easily a 'beginner' could misinterpret the rules, which is true.
Beginners could easily surmise that units can be placed on top of each other as Gav Thorpe mentioned but no Warhammer player of some experience interprets this as allowable.

Ganymede: The rules are not clear but in this case, I would say (and all the contributors of this thread bar one, agree) it is clear enough.


That is close to my point, so I'll refine it a bit. My point is that the rules do not consisely point to either position as the correct solution.

I won't be dragged into trying to find that mystery rule which states definitively that the orc chariots take a special slot, because there is no such rule. Nor is there a rule specifying that we ignore the very regular and normal restrictions on purchased orc chariots in general; that they cost a special slot to purchase.

Bottom line, there is no rule in the orc book that states that a character's chariot doesn't take a special slot, nor is there a rule that states that the character's chariot does take a special slot.

Doc Havoc
16-12-2006, 14:03
Well, per the rules, it actually is quite clear that a character and his mout take up a hero or lord slot. The chariot is his mount. So I will have to disagree with you there.

The idea that the chariot requires an additional special slot is based upon an assumption with, as you say, no rule to back that up.

So before this breaks down any further, it seems that the real idea behind RAW is read the rules as they are written and assume nothing.

I do understand how you could easily think that, however, once again, that is based on an assumption.

EvC
16-12-2006, 15:27
"Its true because its true," is not an arguement.


Here's a little scenario of a new player constructing an orc army...

"Ahh, an orc warboss! Now I definitely want one of those leading my army." A little boy named kevin exclaimed as he leafed through the 'Lords' section of his orc book. "But what will I equip him with?"

Kevin scratched his chin as he pondered his options, "It says here that I can mount him in an orc chariot and he'll displace one of the crew members. That sounds excellent, now all I need is to research the chariot's rules."

Flipping through the index, he finally stumbles upon the relevent entry. "It says here that a chariot will take up one of my special slots. This chariot is clearly what the orc warboss' rules were referring to after all."

Strange, I have never heard of a High Elf player asking if a Hero mounted on a Great Eagle counts as using a Rare Choice. So why should an Orc player think the same regarding Chariots?

2ndCompanyVeterans
16-12-2006, 17:00
I have talk to the UK DS guys and it seems to follow a common trend the Empire book has similar things they also referenced the fact that monster mounts don't occupy extra slotts either. Looks like the new style things not taking multislots. Well see for now though it does not seem like an error.

Ganymede
17-12-2006, 13:56
Strange, I have never heard of a High Elf player asking if a Hero mounted on a Great Eagle counts as using a Rare Choice. So why should an Orc player think the same regarding Chariots?

That's a good point. Unfortunately, needing one armybook in order to understand another is not exactly the healthiest of positions. As I've said before, different armybooks lack consistency; they are written by different authors, at different times, and even span different editions of warhammer.

Ganymede
17-12-2006, 14:00
Well, per the rules, it actually is quite clear that a character and his mout take up a hero or lord slot. The chariot is his mount. So I will have to disagree with you there.

The idea that the chariot requires an additional special slot is based upon an assumption with, as you say, no rule to back that up.



For god's sake, please get out of the "trying to win the arguement" mentality. I know damn well that the idea that a characters chariot requires an assumption and a leap of logic. That's been my point from the beginning. But please try to address the other side of my point, that just as much of a leap of assumption is required in order to say that a character's chariot doesn't require a special slot.

There are no rules in the orc book that say anything either way. If I missed one then feel free to post it here, but I don't think I did.

2ndCompanyVeterans
17-12-2006, 14:28
Just like I said above it's a change just take it as it stands books are changing. Not a single Orc character occupies multiple slots. Also another trend is no 0-1 unit you can take 4 black orc units as your special if you like. This all looks very deliberate. allowing people to play with everything they've got I get to use my nice special characters without permission or worries. I like this new angle. The only draw back for now is that obviously the old armybook books forces are at a slight disadvantage till the new book are done. It's worth noting wood elves follow the same ideal mean this will be 3 books that follow this trend, the only multislot creature is the Treeman Ancient (he equates to a GD anyway in my book) Chacters don't have any extra cost for dragons ETC and no 0-1 units either.

Doc Havoc
17-12-2006, 17:30
[/B]
For god's sake, please get out of the "trying to win the arguement" mentality. I know damn well that the idea that a characters chariot requires an assumption and a leap of logic. That's been my point from the beginning. But please try to address the other side of my point, that just as much of a leap of assumption is required in order to say that a character's chariot doesn't require a special slot.

There are no rules in the orc book that say anything either way. If I missed one then feel free to post it here, but I don't think I did.


Well, I was trying to be polite and tell you to read your codex and you would see where you are wrong. It isn't a "trying to win the argument" issue. There is no argument. Yoiu are just wrong and you are pissed about it.

Here is the rule you so desperastely seek:

O&G Book p.47


Options. Many entries list different weapon, armor and equipment options, along with any additional points cost for giving them to the unit. This includes magic items and other upgrades for characters. It may also include the option to upgrade a unit member to a champion, standard bearer, etc. Orc and Goblin champions are referred to as a Boss.

Now if you refer to the O&G book on p. 49 you will see that the ability for any of the O&G characters to ride in a chariot is listed under OPTIONS

There is no rule in existence in the 7th edition rulebook or O&G book that indicates that you must take an extra slot for a chariot option for a character.

The only rules for slots taken by characters is on p.47 under CHOOSING CHARACTERS.

Even in the rulebook on p.72 the rules for characters describes how a character in a chariot moves, but mentions nothing about taking an additional slot.

I don't need to prove something that doesn't exist. That was your argument, not mine.

EvC
18-12-2006, 12:52
That's a good point. Unfortunately, needing one armybook in order to understand another is not exactly the healthiest of positions. As I've said before, different armybooks lack consistency; they are written by different authors, at different times, and even span different editions of warhammer.

Well you see, I think this is where you are fundamentally wrong (Or misguided, at least). The only reason anyone might think that the Chariot takes up a Special choice is because it did in the previous army book. Thus it is not that you need another army book to know it, it's that you need an objective perspective in order to -not- read something into the rules that isn't there. Or else, as I indicate, High Elf players (who are in the exact same situation) would also think that a Hero on a Great Eagle takes up a Rare choice- none do, and it's not because they're simply smarter or read more army books!

Just look at one of the posts earlier in this thread, where someone went off on how he'd take three Big Bosses on Chariots and move them off their chariots so he could have seven of them in his army- if someone can get such a basic tenet of the rules wrong (That you can't dismount voluntarily) when it's really very clear in the rules, then maybe, just maybe it's not GW's fault this time that people are supposing something wrong.

Now if you want a genuine complaint about inconsistency in army lists we can talk about Dogs of War, but you'll have to wait a week or two before the next one is due to be posted ;)

Ganymede
18-12-2006, 14:07
Well you see, I think this is where you are fundamentally wrong (Or misguided, at least). The only reason anyone might think that the Chariot takes up a Special choice is because it did in the previous army book.

I'm going to stress again that I am not arguing that bosses' chariots should take up a special slot. What I am trying to say is that the rules are much more vague than people let on, and that it takes just as much of a leap of logic to arrive at either onclusion (either they take up a slot or they don't).

Additionally, Didn't you read my earlier post which featured a new orc player named kevin? I believe that post presented a very realistic scenario in which a player unfamiliar with the original orc rulebook could rationally infer that the character's chariot would take up a special slot.

EvC
18-12-2006, 14:17
Well, you don't seem to be grasping my point. Here, let me spell it out for you:

Here's a little scenario of a new player constructing a High Elf army...

"Ahh, a High Elf Commander! Now I definitely want one of those in my army." A little boy named kevin exclaimed as he leafed through the 'Heroes' section of his High Elf book. "But what will I equip him with?"

Kevin scratched his chin as he pondered his options, "It says here that I can mount him on a Great Eagle. That sounds excellent, now all I need is to research the Great Eagle's rules."

Flipping through the index, he finally stumbles upon the relevent entry. "It says here that a Great Eagle will take up one of my Rare slots. This Great Eagle is clearly what the High Elf Commander's rules were referring to after all."

Yet we have had NOT ONE person on these forums ever come up and ask if taking the Great Eagle as a mount will mean using up a Rare slot. And that situation is -directly comparable- to the situation you describe, so, no, in fact there is no rational reason why an Orc player would ever ask your question. In fact your context is not accurate, as it is not the brand new player who is likely to wonder if mounting a character on a chariot would mean using a special slot, it is, in fact someone who has used the old rulebook and now wonders if the same condition applies in the new rulebook where it is not clearly stated.

Now before you reply saying it's confusing, I'll accept that maybe it is, but ONLY to someone who knows the old rules and expects then to have been carried over, and NOT a brand new player. Unless they would also believe that mounting a High Elf Hero on a Great Eagle would also use up an additional troop slot- yet none have.

Just out of interest - and I ask this because I genuinely do not know - does it say anywhere in the new book that mounting a Lord on a Wyvern counts as an additional choice for anything?

Captain Brown
18-12-2006, 14:44
Gentlemen,

Calm the debate down a little, no going after other posters personally; keep it to a discussion of the rules. You are allowed to have differing opinions and some members will never change theirs one way or another. If you met for a friendly game you would just have to not play a game with each other if it was that important. For a tournament, ask the organizer.

Captain Brown
WarSeer Inquisition

Doc Havoc
18-12-2006, 14:46
No it does not, a Wyvern is simply a character option. The same as a boar, a wolf or weapons. Nor do Black orc Warbosses use an additional slot (or anything else for that matter).

Also Orc Great Shamans may now take a Wyvern as their mount as well.

Da GoBBo
18-12-2006, 15:07
Bottom line, there is no rule in the orc book that states that a character's chariot doesn't take a special slot, nor is there a rule that states that the character's chariot does take a special slot.

And therefor it doesn't. If ye can't find it in the rulebook, it can't be done, it's as simple as that.

...

jeh, I hear ye ask. What do ye mean, it ain't in the rulebook? Under options it says it costs 80 points, note that special slots arn't mentioned, that's how it's not in the rulebook.


Additionally, Didn't you read my earlier post which featured a new orc player named kevin? I believe that post presented a very realistic scenario in which a player unfamiliar with the original orc rulebook could rationally infer that the character's chariot would take up a special slot.

:rolleyes: I yet have to meet a starting player who doesn't ask al sorts of "weird" questions during game. Of course they do! The Big Red Book contains over a 120 pages of rules, and these are just the basic rules. Then you have 14 armybooks, a couple of compendiums, all sorts of stuff on the internet and you let your mind boggle over the fact that a noob might not comprehend this?!? Dude, even the most experienced players don't always agree, that's why we have a rulesforum.
Asking questions like this hasn't got anything to do with badly written rules, or different author's, it's just that warhammer is one of the most complex games in existence. Nice of you to draw a sketch of yer little scene, it is indeed a very likely scenario, but it doesn't contribute anything to the "discussion".



I just saw that you talked about breaking: Yes, there is a pursuit/flee roll after the unit is broken.
If the pursures roll higher, the unit is wiped out. If they dont, it *explodes* as soon as it turns around. Ka....bOOOM

It's been a while, but I find this much more interesting. I can't seem to find any indication that this holds truth. To me, the wild squigs rule doesn't seem to say that you will get any pursuit/flee rolls etc. If the herd flees, the squigs cause damage and the unit is removed. That means ye don't get any flee and pursuit moves.

Ganymede
18-12-2006, 15:39
Just out of interest - and I ask this because I genuinely do not know - does it say anywhere in the new book that mounting a Lord on a Wyvern counts as an additional choice for anything?


The situations here are slightly different in the fact that wyvers do not have their own armylist entry with their own defined slot designator. Chariots do.

Ganymede
18-12-2006, 15:45
And therefor it doesn't. If ye can't find it in the rulebook, it can't be done, it's as simple as that.

...

jeh, I hear ye ask. What do ye mean, it ain't in the rulebook? Under options it says it costs 80 points, note that special slots arn't mentioned, that's how it's not in the rulebook.



:rolleyes: I yet have to meet a starting player who doesn't ask al sorts of "weird" questions during game. Of course they do! The Big Red Book contains over a 120 pages of rules, and these are just the basic rules. Then you have 14 armybooks, a couple of compendiums, all sorts of stuff on the internet and you let your mind boggle over the fact that a noob might not comprehend this?!? Dude, even the most experienced players don't always agree, that's why we have a rulesforum.
Asking questions like this hasn't got anything to do with badly written rules, or different author's, it's just that warhammer is one of the most complex games in existence. Nice of you to draw a sketch of yer little scene, it is indeed a very likely scenario, but it doesn't contribute anything to the "discussion".

Of course this line of discussion has somehting to add to the debate. The entire first page of the debate was dominated by (ridiculously) proposing that the only people who would believe that orc chariots take up a special slot are those who's viewpoint was tainted by rules in the previous book.

I'm going to stress my point one more time though. The relevent rules in the orc book can be read in two, equally valid ways. That either the character's chariot takes up a special slot, or the character's chariot doesn't take up a special slot. The only thing we can do in this situation is to come to an agreeable solution with our opponent or tournament organizer?

How can such an innocuous, middle-ground solution generate so much bilous anger and spite on this message board?

Festus
18-12-2006, 17:10
Hi

I'm going to stress my point one more time though. The relevent rules in the orc book can be read in two, equally valid ways. That either the character's chariot takes up a special slot, or the character's chariot doesn't take up a special slot...
Do not feed the Trolls!

Nothing (new) to see here ... go on ... go on ... and there is still nothing new to see here ...

Festus

EvC
18-12-2006, 17:19
The situations here are slightly different in the fact that wyvers do not have their own armylist entry with their own defined slot designator. Chariots do.

Thanks (Also to Doc Havoc); I wasn't asking about Wyverns for that reason so much, but more my own curiosity and to see if it could be used for a clear solution.

Do you also contend that there are two, equally valid ways of interpreting the Wood Elf and High Elf army books, that say a Hero on a Great Eagle also takes up a Rare choice or does not?

You have the choice of being consistent and suggesting something that no-one has ever considered before, which is rejected by every Wood and High Elf player upon a quick look at the army books, or just picking and choosing which interpretations are available (I'm not saying that you would ever try and suggest an Orc Hero Chariot does really take up an extra troop choice). It's not really a tenable position, to me...

Da GoBBo
18-12-2006, 18:43
...That the character's chariot takes up a special slot...


Based on what if I may ask? You refer to the chariot rules. According to you those rules would state that a chariot is a special slot right? My chariot rules can be found on page 19 of the O&G armybook. The only rules mentioned are the basic rules for chariots (which can be found on page 62-63 in the small BRB) and tuskercharge (page 19 of the O&G armybook). Neither of these rules/rulessections mention anything about a chariot costing a special slot. You are right of course that they can be found in the special choice section.

The only conclusion you can draw from all that is that a chariot can be taken as a mount for certain characters (as stated in the character section on page 49-51), in which case it costs either 80 or 60 points and replaces on crewmember, or as a unit, in which case it takes a special slot.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't say you can't read it your way, but you say your way is right too, and that is not the case (page 54-55).

Doc Havoc
18-12-2006, 19:26
Additionally, Didn't you read my earlier post which featured a new orc player named kevin? I believe that post presented a very realistic scenario in which a player unfamiliar with the original orc rulebook could rationally infer that the character's chariot would take up a special slot.

I am going to side with Ganymede here. <GASP!>

A player who does not know the rules and is unfamilliar with the game could actually play this rule wrong! :wtf:

There, is that what you were looking for? Hopefully this will suffice as this is truly a dead topic.

As to the squig herd. I cannot find any support for the idea of a flee move for squig herds. If they fail their test then they explode (or go wild but I like to think that without herder control they just explode with WAAAGH! energy! Same rules, just a different mental picture!). No fleeing or pursuit neccessary.

Flame
19-12-2006, 23:30
hehe, according to the new O&G FAQ, chariots do not take up a special slot.

Hands up all who were wrong ;)

Dakka Dan 42
19-12-2006, 23:37
I'm just personally astounded that it took three pages of bickering to accomplish nothing.

As literal as GW has been getting in their books as of late, it never even occured to me that this might be an issue.

Ganymede
20-12-2006, 16:07
Do you also contend that there are two, equally valid ways of interpreting the Wood Elf and High Elf army books, that say a Hero on a Great Eagle also takes up a Rare choice or does not?

Nah, a faq cleared up that situation ages ago. Luckily we have a new Orc FAQ that clears up the ambiguous situation we were in with Orc chariots.

Ganymede
20-12-2006, 16:10
I'm just personally astounded that it took three pages of bickering to accomplish nothing.

As literal as GW has been getting in their books as of late, it never even occured to me that this might be an issue.


What can I say. With the amount of passion and vitrol that people were infusing into their debate, you think I would have been convinced. Unfortunately, nobody was all that convincing. Its all a moot point now.

Now we get to bitch about the unanticipated side effects of the FAQ that removes a character's bonus chariot armor save in combat, as well as his ability to upgrade the chariot he is on with extra crew, spears, and mounts.

EvC
20-12-2006, 17:40
To be fair, I might've posted a lot in this thread and used Ganymede's own analogy against him, but I don't think any less of anyone, and I hope no-one else thinks that it was all ANGRY ANGRY GRRRRRRRRRR! You were clearly just arguing in favour of the new players, which is not a bad thing, certainly. Good point about the side-effects of the FAQ, too. Grom'll be the only goblin Warboss allowed more than two wolves pullin his chariot, then!

damiengore
20-12-2006, 18:26
Makes sense it doesn't take up a slot, it's not like you can deploy the chariot seperately or the boss for that matter.

Doc Havoc
20-12-2006, 18:41
For god's sake, please get out of the "trying to win the arguement" mentality. I know damn well that the idea that a characters chariot requires an assumption and a leap of logic. That's been my point from the beginning. But please try to address the other side of my point, that just as much of a leap of assumption is required in order to say that a character's chariot doesn't require a special slot.

There are no rules in the orc book that say anything either way. If I missed one then feel free to post it here, but I don't think I did.

Passion, vitrol, unwarranted personal attacks because people quote the rules and they don't match someone's opinion...

All it takes is a single spark. And there are a lot of flint flickers about.

So as long as we are discussing the rules and not peoples "mentality" no one should be offended. Right?:confused:

Ganymede
20-12-2006, 23:23
Passion, vitrol, unwarranted personal attacks because people quote the rules and they don't match someone's opinion...

All it takes is a single spark. And there are a lot of flint flickers about.

So as long as we are discussing the rules and not peoples "mentality" no one should be offended. Right?:confused:

Find where I attacked you or insulted you and I will give you a cookie.

Ganymede
20-12-2006, 23:29
To be fair, I might've posted a lot in this thread and used Ganymede's own analogy against him, but I don't think any less of anyone, and I hope no-one else thinks that it was all ANGRY ANGRY GRRRRRRRRRR! You were clearly just arguing in favour of the new players, which is not a bad thing, certainly.


I want to stress that my "kevin" analogy was not my arguement at all. It was simply a rebuttal to a stance that so many people make, that the only players who would think that the chariots take up a special slot are those players who were tainted with previous editions of the orc book. Kevin is not a new player in the least, nor is he experienced. He simply took a literal read through of the book and came to the conclusion that the chariots took up a special slot after a perusal of the chariot's armylist entry.

With the release of the new FAQ, I feel vindicated. My point along has been that the situation is very ambiguous and can be read either way, and that, aside from the intervention from Gav or a FAQ, we will have to decide amongst ourselves how to play it. GW obviously agrees with me that the rule here is patently vague, and required an online suppliment to publically clarify the issue. If the rules were so clear about the special slot status of orc chariots, then no FAQ qould have been necessary.

EvC
20-12-2006, 23:36
Ahh, but there are two overlapping positions here; (one) that a "new" player might easily make the mistake of thinking that a hero on a chariot counts as a special, and (two) that existing players whose previous experience clouds the issue makes them wonder if the chariot thing was an oversight. I think we were all agreeing that (two) was definitely possible, but I think only you were saying (one) was likely. The FAQ is clearly aimed at sorting it out once and for all, but I am not convinced that a new, uncorrupted player would be likely to get it wrong, as you suggest.

I guess we'll just have to wait a while, and see how often the query is asked (And since we often get questions that can be answered with a cursory glance at the main rulebook, this should be a frequent wonder from someone who was never aware of previous/ other armies' charactiot rules).

;)

Ganymede
20-12-2006, 23:40
It only seemed like I was saying that one position was likely because there were already plenty of people saying how the other position was likely. All that was left to support on my side was the converse position. I don't need to bring up great eagle mounts when someone else does it for me.