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Tate
27-11-2006, 21:04
If you cant tell, I'm looking to start an empire army when the new book comes out so I'm starting a few threads to help with army selection.

Basically with the new rules flagellants and greatswords are the same pts cost (10) and fulfull similar roles of being powerful tie-up units that can also pack a serious punch.

Flagellants:
Pros: flails, unbreakable, frenzy, potentially hatred/reroll wounds/+1CR.
Cons: WS2, no armor, frenzy, no command, must sacrifice models for benefits.

Analysis: Essentially these guys are great on the charge but thats about it. They charge in with 11 (champ) rerollable 4s to hit 2s/3s to wound with -2 save. In subsequent rounds if the enemy holds they will kill off several flaggies each turn due to their poor WS and lack of armor. At least the remaining models wont run away. I see these guys as a somewhat unpredictable (due to frenzy) hammer unit that can tie up elite units for a few rounds with enough numbers. I would love to take units of 25 to try and get full ranks but units of 15/20 are cheaper and would fulfull a support role just fine without being totally neutralized by a cheap unit of fastcav baiting them the whole game. Although 25 with a champion is still only 260 pts, its not _that_ bad.

Greatswords:
Pros: WS4, S5, 4+ armor, command group, stubborn 8, detachment rules.
Cons: Strike last except on charge.

Analysis: These guys are the best state troops you can have with their 6 attacks hitting on 3s/4s and wounding on 2s/3s. While not nearly as powerful on the charge as some martyring flaggies, these troops retain their power in subsequent rounds and have 4+ armor to actually allow them to get some attacks back. Stubborn 8 is nearly unbreakable (except against fear) within range of a BSB anyway. Best unit size would probably be 20 with two detachments (either 2x 10 free company, 10 FC and 10 halberds, or 10 FC and some handgunners) and in range of a BSB. This makes the unit reliable with some built in sacrificial units to redirect enemies or distract/deter them. This setup comes in at about 430 pts and uses up a special and a hero slot, but the detachments and bsb can help other nearby units as well.


Basically, on paper it seems that greatswords are much better because they are reliable and actually have a chance of winning in a prolonged combat. Detachments are also a great help if you are charged, whereas flaggies would just die and sit there for the rest of the game as they were slowly whittled down without any flails hitting back in round one. However, taking even one warrior priest makes one unit of flagellants core so you can take more rares if thats your style. I'm starting to think that flagellants are best in small units as support roles and greatswords are large mainstay formations. I dont really like small units of greatswords (even though they are possible) because they lack enough punch to give them a shot of winning. Whereas flagellants hit hard enough that they could win with only 1 rank bonus behind them if they get the charge. Besides, fluff wise I just think flagellants are so much cooler, who doesnt love a horde of screaming, disease ridden, fanatics?

NakedFisherman
27-11-2006, 21:12
These would be better in Fantasy Tactics. This is the News and Rumours forum, not the 'talk about upcoming stuff' forum. :p

Tate
27-11-2006, 23:27
Reposted in tactics.

Iron Buddha
28-11-2006, 02:43
please close the thread as well, so that the mods dont need to waste their time.

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
28-11-2006, 18:02
Well, regardless of what the Enlightened One may think, I move to keep the thread open. Mostly because I have wondered this often myself.

I'd say your best bet would be a bit of a compromise. I would stick a Warrior Priest in with a big ranked unit of GreatSwords. The hatred really will make your strength 5 attacks, due to the re-roll to hit in the first round. I assume that the hatred will also apply to any detatchments? If so, that makes a detatchment or two of halberdiers on your flanks very worthwhile indeed. 5 WS 4 S5 attacks from the Greatswords, plus 2 WS 4 S5 attacks from a Warrior priest, combined with 5 WS 3 S4 attacks from your halberdiers, all re-rolling to hit, plus the static CR gained from a standard, 3 ranks of Greatswords (potentially 6 with the Griffon Standard, if you throw a BSB into the mix, plus the additional 3 WS5 S4 attacks), 1 rank of Halberdiers (assuming detatchments benefit from rank bonuses), and +1 bonus for a flank charge from the Halberdiers will make this unit one tough nut to crack. Expensive (comparatively), but this is an anvil unit that can take most anything thrown at them, and whack back withenough high strength attacks to send the enemy packing. Plus, you will more than likely hold if you roll poorly enough to lose the combat, due to stubborn LD 8 with a re-roll, or modifiable LD 9 with a re-roll. Take into account the 4+ save on the Greatswords and the Captain, plus the fact that you have both a champion and a warrior priest to accept challenges to keep your BSB alive, and you've got a tough nut to crack.
It will certainly hold long enough against a tough enemy to get a unit of Knights into their flank.

Just my two cents.
Cheers.