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Mephistofeles
28-11-2006, 16:49
Hi all , I have now gathered a lot of bottled up feelings and thoughts regarding magic and its uses, and now I will reveal them here, and hope to get a lot of comments and tips...Here it goes:

First off is the issue of Wizard Lords. I thought about this yesterday, and came to some conclusions:

- A Wizard Lord is level 3 by default. If I upgrade him to level 4, I get
- one more power dice
- The choice to cast spells with 1 more dice

- I have never used more then 4 dice to cast a spell, not that I can recall anyway.

So, the logical conclusion of those two facts, are that I pay 35 points (In the case of Empire) to get an additional power dice. Is that worth it, could those points not be spent in a better place?

Another question which arises here, is the difference between a Wizard Lord, and two level 2 Wizards. Having two level 2 wizards gives me the same amount of both Dispel and Casting Dice, and they can use 3 each, which I feel is most of the time enough. For Empire, the cost for two level 2 wizards is actually 20 points lower then the cost for 1 level 4.

Now, there are pros and cons with this:

1: The Wizard Lord has T4 and 3 wounds. The normal Wizards have T3 and 2 wounds each.

2: To protect the Wizard Lord, I only need to buy one expensive magic item, to protect the other two I need two items. Not that I would ever spend points on such sillyness.

3: They can only cast spells with a maximum of 3 dice every time.

4: The targets for my enemies mage-hunters are now two instead of one, although each one is simpler to take out.

5: Taking two level 2 wizard take up two hero slots, the lord only takes up one. On the other hand, that one is the precious lord-slot.

6: Having two wizards make my magic department a bit less prone to fall flat on its face with just one misscast.

Now, on the subject of scrolls, I for one only use 1 dispel scroll, but if I was to use two, I would feel much safer spreading them out on two wizards.

Now, that's my thoughts, now fire away with comments and your own views upon this matter!

Fhoen
28-11-2006, 17:31
well a lvl 4 can get some more nasty tricksy items with him/her :p
and 2 lvl 2's are a bit harde to take out cus they're (mostly) in 2 different units/corners... so it's the thing what u like urself mostly... go split ur force up or go for one big fat magic making 'ummie...

TheWarSmith
28-11-2006, 17:36
i'm not aware of any mage lords that gain +1T over their hero level counterparts.

You're paying 35 points for a LOT more than 1 power die. You also get an extra spell, which is REALLY good. Some armies have an item that costs 15-25 points for an extra spell.

wizard lords also unlock the power of your higher lvl spells(in most lores) that lvl 2 wizards aren't consistent enough to wield. power 10+ isn't exactly reliable for a lvl 2 to cast.

A downside to the wizard lord is lores w/ lots of remains in play. 2 lvl 2s can bounce around spells and duplicate spells(if they get the same ones)

I only take 1-2 scrolls(usually 1), and i'd agree to spread them unless there's a critical 30+ magic item you want one of them to have.

Bloodknight
28-11-2006, 17:41
@ Warsmith: every human Level 3/4 mage has T4 while the smaller ones are T3.
Also the Ork Great Shaman is T5 insteaf of T4 of the Ork shaman.


edit: except for the Bretonnian Prophetess (I looked that up a moment ago). So it´s actually Empire and Dogs of War wizard lords, who are T4 instead of T3 of the normal L1/2 Wizard.

Mephistofeles
28-11-2006, 20:04
Well, the extra spell is of great use yes, I forgot about that. But that still leaves the problem of why I would ever take one level 4 instead of two level 2wizards? They are cheaper, and have the exact same casting and dispelling potential.

The thing about them being able to use 4-5 dice instead of 3 is a big thing, but as I play Empire, I can get an item which enables me to cast with one more dice for 10 points...

So, why ever would I take the Lord? Thoughts?

Thargrund
28-11-2006, 20:36
Hi all , I have now gathered a lot of bottled up feelings and thoughts regarding magic and its uses, and now I will reveal them here, and hope to get a lot of comments and tips...Here it goes:

First off is the issue of Wizard Lords. I thought about this yesterday, and came to some conclusions:

- A Wizard Lord is level 3 by default. If I upgrade him to level 4, I get
- one more power dice
- The choice to cast spells with 1 more dice

- I have never used more then 4 dice to cast a spell, not that I can recall anyway.

So, the logical conclusion of those two facts, are that I pay 35 points (In the case of Empire) to get an additional power dice. Is that worth it, could those points not be spent in a better place?

Another question which arises here, is the difference between a Wizard Lord, and two level 2 Wizards. Having two level 2 wizards gives me the same amount of both Dispel and Casting Dice, and they can use 3 each, which I feel is most of the time enough. For Empire, the cost for two level 2 wizards is actually 20 points lower then the cost for 1 level 4.

Now, there are pros and cons with this:

1: The Wizard Lord has T4 and 3 wounds. The normal Wizards have T3 and 2 wounds each.

2: To protect the Wizard Lord, I only need to buy one expensive magic item, to protect the other two I need two items. Not that I would ever spend points on such sillyness.

3: They can only cast spells with a maximum of 3 dice every time.

4: The targets for my enemies mage-hunters are now two instead of one, although each one is simpler to take out.

5: Taking two level 2 wizard take up two hero slots, the lord only takes up one. On the other hand, that one is the precious lord-slot.

6: Having two wizards make my magic department a bit less prone to fall flat on its face with just one misscast.

Now, on the subject of scrolls, I for one only use 1 dispel scroll, but if I was to use two, I would feel much safer spreading them out on two wizards.

Now, that's my thoughts, now fire away with comments and your own views upon this matter!

Ok, firstly your arguement seems to be based around empire and i find that the wizard lord slots really depend on the army as one of many factors eg woodelf lords are shockers and the wizard lord is a very nice alternative. Next i would like to mention that a wizard lord can take 4 spells from a single law and hence can take the vast majority of spells from a single law, roling 4 dice is a satisfying feeling. ALso a wizard lord has a phsycological effect a wizard is just a noraml sight but a wizard lord is something bigger and better, im a dwarf player mostly and i get scared every time my HE friend deploys his Archmage.

That is just a sample of the reasons wizardlords rock - but im too tired and lazy to vocalise the rest :D

- bye for now :)

TheWarSmith
28-11-2006, 20:55
That's really a good point on it being dependent on the army you're looking at.

In chaos, I think it's generally unwise to go for wizard lords given how good their combat lords are.

Other armies like empire and elves often want wizard lords because they have very good high point magic items inaccesable to lvl 1-2 wizards, and their spells have high casting values.

Dont' even make me mention the difference between a slaan and a skink priest.

Glorfindel
28-11-2006, 21:10
It just depends on your needs, I tend to use 2 lvl 2 mages and a warrior lord, because I prefer the ld and fighting value to boost my unit(s) and the 2 lvl 2s means i can cover more ground with them, lending support wherever needed which is not that easy with a wizard lord unless he's on a flyer but that does make him a single highly sought target. They also apply more to the don't put all the eggs in one basket.

Steel_Legion
28-11-2006, 21:21
You have alot of good points here, i could save 35 points by getting 2 level 2s instead of my usual level 4, however a lack of spells can be annoying, but overall, i think lots of lower level wizards might actually work out better theoretically, sure they cant get say 100poins of magic items each, but 50points between the 2, so not as much of a problem when killed, good read!

Shaitan
29-11-2006, 08:47
I always like to have a Wizard-lord in my Chaos list.

Some reasons for this are that he can have some magic protection AND some good arcane magic items wich makes him a powerfull wizard.

When facing an army without a lot of shooting he can run over the battlefield without needing the protection of a unit.

When facing an army with a lot of shooting I find it easier to protect only a single wizard (in a Marauder unit) than to protect two wizards.

A side not to all this.... I often play with one lvl 4 wizards and one lvl 2 wizard. So I like to combine both :)

Steel_Legion
29-11-2006, 14:53
that was my set up until i realsed i could get the same ammount of spells and powerdice/dispel dice with x3 level 2s, so that is now what i might try, plus i can lump a few in some M@A units for my bretonnians and they might actually stand thier ground now! who knows, one thing i hate about Bretonnian magic items is there is not nearly enough of them, and alot are not too useful (one is now compeltely useless...)

Arhalien
29-11-2006, 15:02
ALso a wizard lord has a phsycological effect a wizard is just a noraml sight but a wizard lord is something bigger and better, im a dwarf player mostly and i get scared every time my HE friend deploys his Archmage.


I love doing that to you Thargrund. :evilgrin:

I have a list with both 2 lvl2s and a prince and one with an archmage and a couple of commander including a bsb. I tend not to max out on heroes (never seem to ahve enough points), but if you want to have magic madness you could have a mage lord and a lvl2 mage as well as 2 combat heroes, which Is what I do to scare Thargrund's dwarves (still hasnt' wokred thoughl he just has too many scrolls). In addition, the ability to use 4 dice for a spell is very useful, as it does give access to the nasty spells.As an elf my archmage is a lvl4 with silver wand, giving him 5 spels and room for 4 dispel scrolls. my lvl 2s, for similar effect need to have seer at 30pts for each of them, leaving them little room for other stuff.

T10
29-11-2006, 15:44
From a purely magical standpoint you will want more cheap wizards in preference to one expensive lord.

Magical tactics have two schools: width or penetration. Either you try to overwhelm your opponent with multiple spells or you try to break through his magic defense with brute force.

"Widht" means casting multiple spells with the potential of getting more out of your magic. The effect of the spell isn't dependent on the number of dice expended to cast it. Either the spell takes effect or it fails. Casting many spells means using fewer dice per casting, perhaps just one die! This has two immediate down-sides.

You'll be failing to match the casting level on more spells. This again means that your opponent will conserve more dispel dice.
The spells you do get off will have a low casting value, so your opponent will have less difficulty dispelling them.

"Penetration" means casting a few spells, using as many dice as possible to cast one or two spells at full force. The objective is to take advantage of the fact that one usually has more power dice than the opponent has dispel dice. Also, an opponent may be unwilling to risk using dispel dice to counter a high-casting-value spell and therefor use a Dispel Scroll instead, effectively wasting the benefit of having Dispel dice.

Obviously, having your only spell that turn countered by a dispel scroll is to the immediate advantage of your opponent.
Miscasts.


For width I'd recommend multiple low-level wizards. For penetration I'd recommend a single wizard, either a high-level one or a low-level wizard with the ability to cast spells using more Power dice than his level permits.

-T10

MarcoPollo
29-11-2006, 17:16
That's a very interesting analysis of the the two types of spell casters.
I also like the multiple low level wizards.

It is also important to think of the what you could be missing if you take a Mage-lord. You miss out on ld bonus and combat prowess from a Warior General.

I find that it is easy to shut down a high level magic "penetration" magic phase, because there is really only one or two major spells that can have dire effects on the game. If the opponent knows the spells and the effects that it can have, he will wait to use his dispel dice or scroll for the major spell.

The opponent can measure his magic defense to counter the most important spells.

If you plan your magic phase properly, you can sneak in some low level spells while your opponent waits for the major stuff to come out.

Meanwhile, if you are using two low level mages, you will still get stuff dispelled, but will not feel that you need to get off those big nasty spells to break through the magic defenses. You can whittle away at the opponent with smaller spells and making his dispel scrolls less effective by making him use them to counter smaller stuff.

Thus you can get the usage of a warior lord with a ld bonus over the mage lord.

I find that if people take a mage lord, they are also tending to take a BSB to counter the ld weaknesses too. Thus your hero slots are Mage lord, BSB, open, open. With two level two, you get, Warior lord, lv 2 mage, lv 2 mage, open.

Mephistofeles
29-11-2006, 17:16
You are of course correct in that it depends very much on the army I'm taking. Empire (which is my base of speculation here) has quite lousy fighty characters, even if you count the Templar Grand Master and Arch Lector. They are ok, but not that rock-hard as some other armies, so for Empire perhaps the lord-slot is viable for the Wizard Lord.

Now, I still can't really see any reason why I would take a Wizard Lord over 2 smaller Wizards, other then:

1: He can cast with 4-5 dice, while the others can only use 3.
2: He can be kitted out with some tremendous items.

I mean, with two smaller ones, I get the same number of spells, the ability to have multiple of the same spell, and to have several remains in play spells in play at the same time, and casting more.

Then, I take it that the general concensus here is that if you take a Wizard Lord, you should kit him out with a lot of nastyness on the magical department? Any tips for equipment for an Empire Wizardlord then? He'll only have one scroll, I refuse to take more.

Also, should I use a level 2 wizard in adition to the wizard lord, or will it seem a bit boring (read: Cheazy) to go so all out on magic with the Empire, since they already have a fair bit of shooting (I have 20 handgunners and 2 cannons...)?

Another question as well: I was thinking of using a warrior priest in conjunction with the level 4 wizard, do you think it will work? I was thinking that my opponents magical defense will be a bit drained by the wizard lord, and so will let some of the prayers slip through...

Tate
29-11-2006, 17:57
The biggest weakness of the empire is leadership. By taking a LD8 general as opposed to LD9 you are playing into your weakness. My way of dealing with that is to take an arch lector with his LD9, two prayers, mediocre fighting ability, and survivability due to armor. This allows me to have 3 hero slots for whatever other magic/fighting I want. Although the wizard lord is tempting, he lacks the leadership boost that I think empire really needs (unless you went nearly all greatswords. . .now theres and idea. . . ).

Mephistofeles
29-11-2006, 18:23
I for my part play with a Wizard Lord and a BSB as my only heroes, but are planning to flesh out with a Warrior Priest.

I counter the low LD with having a BSB with the Imperial Banner. That makes my whole army (most of the time) roll all break-tests and psych-tests on LD 8, with a re-roll...that works tremendously well. But of course, it would work even better with LD9 I guess, but then I would have to take a Fighty General, and two level 2 wizards to outweight the loss of the Wizard Lord...I could always take an Arch Lector, two level 2 wizards and the BSB...then I would get all I want!

A tad bit expensive though...this is damn hard.

Steel_Legion
29-11-2006, 20:20
you see i have no such luxuarys, i really want a magic army, and my 2 current armies (bretonnians with a whole 2 lores!) and dwarves (nuff said) dont really satify my taste, may start the empire as they seem to get alot of fun things

TKitch
29-11-2006, 22:05
You seem set on believing that 2x L2's is better than a L4. Yes they are, but at the same time, no they're not.

Advantages to a L4:

1) 100 points of magic items. This unlocks a few key items for certain races. (Book of Hoeth, Staff of Change, etc.)

2) ONE wizard gets to use all 6 dice generated. With 2 L2's, you only get 3 each, or something similar.

3) Throwing a bucket of dice at your opponent can easily scare the snot out of him.

Pro's of 2x L2s: You've named.

Bloodknight
29-11-2006, 22:40
Well, I play a Wizard Lord and 2 level 2 wizards with 4 dispel scrolls and 4 power stones in my DoW army. The merc general isn´t a really good fighter, as he lacks good magic items, most of the units are LD8 anyway and a BSB in form of the paymaster is mandatory.

slasher
29-11-2006, 23:04
Any way if you want good magic and a good fighting General just play Tzeentch!!:p

Mike3791
30-11-2006, 15:53
You are of course correct in that it depends very much on the army I'm taking. Empire (which is my base of speculation here) has quite lousy fighty characters, even if you count the Templar Grand Master and Arch Lector. They are ok, but not that rock-hard as some other armies, so for Empire perhaps the lord-slot is viable for the Wizard

Empire also has pretty lousy casters compared to other armies. Even with that said, I think their fighters are more viable than there casters. Take wizards against a slann/priest/priest army and watch your wizards do nothing. The thing about casters is that they are always fighting each other weather its directly(throwing fire and lighting bolts) or indirectly (casting and dispel dice). Even though my templar master may or may not beat a chaos lord in CC, at the same time, he doesnt have to fight him. He can attack warriors or maruaders, give him some magic weapons and he can take down a fair amount of mosters too.

With that said, will the templar master be returning in the new empire book, or is it just gonna be the wizard lord, general, and arch lector for lord choices?

Tate
30-11-2006, 17:44
templar master is in the new book along with 2 special characters and the three you mentioned

Mephistofeles
30-11-2006, 17:50
I haven't really "decided" that 2 lv 2 is better then 1 lv 4, I just listed the pors and cons I could come up with and wanted to know if I was missing something.

The thing most people then seem to think is the main advantage of the Wizard Lord, is that he can get really powerful items? So that means that if I whould use him, I shuld kit him out with some really nasty things?

Lord Kaiaphas
30-11-2006, 20:39
ok, after months and months of lurking warseer, here is my first post (finally :cool: )

I think the main advantage of taking a wizard lord is not the 100 points of magical allowance, but the amount of spells he has, ie 4. With 2 lvl 2 casters you can easily get stuck with 2 or 3 spells that you didn't want to get or that are plain useless and D6 str 4 hits will only get you so far. A lvl 4 caster has always the more out of your lore + the ability to cast it.

But since this is about 1 lvl 4 vs 2 lvl 2, i'd still go for the 2 lvl 2. A wizard lord needs a hero wizard to get any decent effect.

btw i play High Elves, Tomb Kings and Dwarfs... so this isn't really bothering me :angel: