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eldaran
28-11-2006, 20:05
The Eldar have a webway portal which opens on Terra. If the Imperium is such a problem for the Eldar, why haven't the Eldar thought of using the portal to attack Terra and strike a crushing blow against the Imperium? I don't think it has been sealed.

Alpharius
28-11-2006, 20:15
Not sure how official the whole "Webway Portal on Terra" thing is, but...

I don't think the Eldar want to wipe out Humanity, at least, not yet.

They'd rather use them as a buffer against their enemies and to further their own enigmatic goals.

Or something like that...

Dark Apostle197
28-11-2006, 20:22
If it is open still it would obviously be gaurded... You cannot put every force you have into it at once(I am guessing) so they will show up in wave. Giving more time for more defenders to show up. I don't think it would be worth it, the Eldar are a dying race and attacking Terra wouldn't help that. Plus, if they killed the high commanders, it would probably helps the Imperium :)

VERITAS/AEQUITAS
28-11-2006, 20:33
The Eldar have a webway portal which opens on Terra. If the Imperium is such a problem for the Eldar, why haven't the Eldar thought of using the portal to attack Terra and strike a crushing blow against the Imperium? I don't think it has been sealed.


First of it: It is not an Eldar portal.

Second: It is in fact the only one existing human/Technically built portal.

Third: The Golden Throne is this portal.

Fourth: It is sealed. BY THE EMPEROR PERSONALLY !:D

Fifth: You'll find that fluff-wise in the chapter "Beyond the Golden Throne" in the artbook Horus Heresy IV

Kage2020
28-11-2006, 21:55
And, of course, it is a pile of pants. That doesn't mean it cannot be salvaged, although the whole "Emperor-as-cork" has a drastic limp to it (read: it is lame).

Personally I would not think of the portal as being a Webway portal, Imperial or otherwise. Remembering, of course, that the Eldar were meant to be unique in their surpassing of the Old Ones in the production of the Webway. Rather, the portal is a primitive "warp gate portal", harking back to the earlier experimentations of the Old Ones.

Of course, this presupposes that you don't subscribe to the idea that the Emperor is an Old One. I'm not fond of this, to say the least, feeling that Xenology and that darned tablet has a heck of a lot to answer for in terms of way-out-there speculation. (Though there is a hint, or even huge deal of, hypocrisy in that! :D) If you do subscribe to that idea? Wahey. Jolly good.

With that said, I do believe that there is a Webway (read: Eldar) portal on Terra, though it was likely closed down in prehistory. (That's our prehistory, not the 40k prehistory.) I can accept that the Golden Throne is related to that portal, though I find it begins to begger belief everything that the Golden Throne is supposedly doing. I also do not like the "Emperor-as-cork" approach, feeling that it is a somewhat superficial "out" to the question of the Emperor's supposed overwatch and the reason that... something remains on the Throne.

As always, even some of the more contentious 'fluff' can be integrated into the older material if you're willing to squint a bit. ;) :D

Kage

VERITAS/AEQUITAS
28-11-2006, 23:24
(...)
As always, even some of the more contentious 'fluff' can be integrated into the older material if you're willing to squint a bit. ;) :D

Kage

Err, isn't that what GW does since the begining?? There were years without such a thing called the TAU and whoomp there it was. Necrons?? whoomp here we go....

Eldar warp portal? Maybe..maybe not. Who knows ;)

Commander Ozae
28-11-2006, 23:43
Nobody knows but i think that back in the day the Emperor would have found such a portal and sealed it. i doubt he would like the threat of the eldar showing up in his backyard just when he's creating the Imperium.

VERITAS/AEQUITAS
29-11-2006, 00:54
Ok, this is going to be the ultimate post about this topic.(maybe)

For your understanding I will start my explaination with the question who created the 40k universe?

As Rogue Trader was the first printed source with background and mainly written by Rick Priestly and Jervis Johnson (and some other guys in a smaller scale) I would give this honor to them.

Why did I ask that first? – Well, the Horus Heresy is now at the point everyone starts to get more interested in reading about it, and the Black Library does a good job on it by providng us with sources about this event. Not just the great novels (three so far, fourth on its way) but for a great amount also the stunning artbooks Horus Heresy I – IV which are written by Alan Merrit. And this is my explanaition why I say “these books are fluff-wise a 100% granted”.
Why? – because Alan Merrit writes in the Preface of each of the four books that he likes to thank Rick and Jervis for reading and editing them. So, the creators of 40k said Mr. Merrit that his storyline is exactly true.

Now onto the “Eldar have a webway portal on Terra” topic.

I really would like so much simply quoting the original text of the novels and books but because of copyright laws I cannot do that as you all know.:rolleyes:

But I can give you the exact lines and pages for the answers of your questions. Please, before starting to criticize my post: Those of you owning the Artbooks – PLEASE read the parts I will tell you now. Those who don’t own them, buy it, borrow it, get it from ebay – you will receive a fantastic source of the most interesting part of 40k history!

I say: The Golden Throne is a human built warp gateway constructed by the Emperor himself. Powerd with his will. Defended by his might. And keeping his will alive with the energy of the warp itself since he was placed there because his body was destroyed in the Final battle.

Here you (who can) find the proof:

Horus Heresy IV “Visions of Death”
Page 32, the complete chapter “Beyond the Golden Throne”. (it is a portal)
Page 49, the mid-third of the text on this page, starting right under the big bold printed letters to the left of the picture. (powered by His will and now keeping His powers alive).

Looking forward how you interpret THIS.;)

Vaktathi
29-11-2006, 01:46
I don't think the eldar have the manpower to annihilate Terra, the whole planet is a giant fortress, if the Chaos marines with millions of traitor guard and Titan Legions, the eldar probably don't have the strength either, especially considering that their portal on Terra most likely isnt HUGE and would take alot of time to move troops through.

although they could probably throw an Cyclonic torpedo type weapon though and be done with it, but then where would our game universe be? also the Eldar would have no buffer against the various predations of the universe that are currently not focused on them

Kage2020
29-11-2006, 02:45
Err, isn't that what GW does since the begining??
No, not at all. As your example suggests, while there might be linking material in the earlier 'fluff', ultimately it comes down to GW imposition, or what has become known as "shoe-horning". Integration with the older material takes a tiny bit more finesse, imagination and, perhaps, being divorced from the marketting strategy.


Nobody knows but i think that back in the day the Emperor would have found such a portal and sealed it.
Or the Eldar could have sealed it if it exists. For me, I would work on the principle that not everything revolves around the Imperium and the Emperor, therefore while there was an Eldar Webway portal (or more than one) in terrestrial prehistory it was long since shut off by the Eldar themselves. That they might have been working against the machinations of the Emperor is reasonable, but at the same time I would personally not argue for the "Emperor is everything" approach (aka the "Ctoe"! ;)).


Ok, this is going to be the ultimate post about this topic.
There is absolutely no such thing, more so when it comes from specifically citing canonical material... :D


For your understanding I will start my explaination with the question who created the 40k universe?
We all know that. What is the point?


And this is my explanaition why I say “these books are fluff-wise a 100% granted”.
It's published by GW or one of their subsidiaries. Ergo it is canonical material. There is no need to try and cite authors and who did what first. it's a simple equation. Published by GW = canon. (Truth or Equity withstanding... ;))

Just because GW publishes it, though, doesn't mean that it is going to be universally accepted by the fans irrespective of the authors or their "heritage". In other words, citing that Merret says that Priestly and Jervis were an inspiration, or the fact that there is mutual back-patting going on, doesn't really do anything other than reinforce the fact that this is the most recent interpretation.


Please, before starting to criticize my post: Those of you owning the Artbooks – PLEASE read the parts I will tell you now....
You are allowed to cite small sections of the 'fluff' in such discussions. Otherwise these forums would be nothing more than the act of librarianship, e.g.

Q: "Where can I find some interesting information on the Eldar?"
A: "WD127, 2e Eldar Codex..."

(And as soon as you get into more the one or two sources, you'll more than likely find some form of potential contradiction!)

Kind of doesn't deserve that category "Warhammer 40,000 Discussion" that way, does it? On the other hand, your opinion does warrant that title, although if presented in the polar "I'm right, your wrong" approach...?


Those who don’t own them, buy it, borrow it, get it from ebay – you will receive a fantastic source of the most interesting part of 40k history!
Are they going for less than $10 each?


I say: The Golden Throne is a human built warp gateway constructed by the Emperor himself. Powerd with his will. Defended by his might. And keeping his will alive with the energy of the warp itself since he was placed there because his body was destroyed in the Final battle.
Jolly good. And for those that don't agree with you, regardless of the "proof" that you offer?


Looking forward how you interpret THIS.
LOL!


I don't think the eldar have the manpower to annihilate Terra...
Does it only come to manpower?

Kage

Lothlanathorian
29-11-2006, 06:06
If they don't have the manpower, then do they have the dirty-xeno-scum power? I doubt it, really.

On to the topic, I am going to have to read these...'artbooks'. If anything, it goes to explain the workings of the Throne itself to some degree, I would imagine.

Khaine's Messenger
29-11-2006, 06:21
If the Imperium is such a problem for the Eldar, why haven't the Eldar thought of using the portal to attack Terra and strike a crushing blow against the Imperium?

Because the Imperium isn't "such a problem for the Eldar." In fact, there are several Eldar factions that seem to have a vested interest in the Imperium's survival in one form or another for the forseen future (barring the approaching End of Times).

And on the subject of the so-called "Imperial webway"...it matters little. It wasn't really mentioned in Draco (not that this lack of mention means it doesn't exist or anything) and the Inquisitor background suggests that the reasons for the Emperor's extended enthronement go beyond the Emperor's personal politics and power no matter what the Horus Heresy art books might suggest. So the situation is much, much more complicated than "Emperor-as-cork."

VERITAS/AEQUITAS
29-11-2006, 10:57
@Kage2020:

It is not going into a argument who's right and who is wrong from my side. As you said it shall be a Discussion, sorry no offense was meant against you. :(

Have you read the HH4 sections I told in my post above? Not that you have to agree with them, but honestly did you?

You say there is some "evidence" other than that in older books / WDs...

I am collecting since 13 years so maybe I have them or friends of mine.:angel:

Would you mind to tell me where exactly I can find the source of your ideas on this topic?

Rockerfella
29-11-2006, 11:22
If they don't have the manpower, then do they have the dirty-xeno-scum power? I doubt it, really.

On to the topic, I am going to have to read these...'artbooks'. If anything, it goes to explain the workings of the Throne itself to some degree, I would imagine.

But, the point is maybe they dont need the manpower. The British desert rats were quater the size of the Medina devision of the Iraqi imperial guard they faced in the iraqi desert, they still won.

Manpower is irrelevant when you can teleport a warp/realspace nuclear type device through a warpgate.

However, i tend to agree with Kage, i suspect that the Eldar closed the warpgate off before mankind crawled from the swamps.

;)

Alpharius
29-11-2006, 17:40
Hmmm...

The more I hear about the Horus Heresy Artbook background, the less I like it.

Now, admittedly, I haven't read the latest, and I've only paged through most, but it doesn't sound very good, and it doesn't sound like it meshes with what we already "know" to be true from past works...

So far, the Hours Heresy novels are doing a really good job, without messing (too much) with what we (think) already know, so, there's hope, I guess, as I think most people are going to go with the Horus Heresy Novels over the Artbooks for what they view as being the "official" background...

ryng_sting
29-11-2006, 17:45
The Eldar have a webway portal which opens on Terra. If the Imperium is such a problem for the Eldar, why haven't the Eldar thought of using the portal to attack Terra and strike a crushing blow against the Imperium? I don't think it has been sealed.


That portal will remain sealed as long as the Emperor endures on the Golden Throne. The Emperor didn't build his palace where he did to up Nottingham's property rate; he built it because of its proximity to a webway gate. The small tunnel leading to this gate was built by the Emperor and his scientists, who found the section of the webway beyond it abandoned. If the Eldar ever had any plans to thwart the Emperor's expansion into the webway, they probably abandoned them once the Emperor's section became infested with daemons.

Kage2020
29-11-2006, 22:20
Because the Imperium isn't "such a problem for the Eldar."
Indeed. It seems that the idea is that the Eldar must universally want to create their former Empire and, of course, the Imperium is the only truly serious threat. Same thing comes up with discussions about the Humans during the Dark Age of Technology...


And on the subject of the so-called "Imperial webway"...it matters little.
Once again, indeed. The reason it becomes difficult to cite 'fluff' about it from earlier material is, quite simply, it is a latter addition.


Have you read the HH4 sections I told in my post above?
It's pretty hard to read something when you have a general policy of not buying GW material. Actually that's not quite true, though it has been reinforced most recently by spending far too much money on Xenology. Hence you're going to have to quote the aforementioned sections.

With that said, I would not be surprised if they said what you say they do. That was, however, not the point that I was making. Just because something is published by GW doesn't mean that it has to be universally accepted. After all, they specifically design their material to have contradictions, interpreative loopholes, and so forth.


Not that you have to agree with them, but honestly did you?
In general I find the majority of the information on an "Imperial Webway" to be a tad... lame. Hence the above possibility that would tie it into the older material without once again pedastalling the Emperor as the be-all-and-end-all of the game background.


You say there is some "evidence" other than that in older books / WDs...
The "evidence" I refer to is merely the evolution of the Webway, as referenced in the older material. Check out WD105.


Would you mind to tell me where exactly I can find the source of your ideas on this topic?
A reading of the 'fluff' and, as mentioned above, personal interpretation. Again, I find the "Imperial Webway" to be a cop-out. Of course, if you could provide appropriately sized quotes of this supposedly superlative 'fluff' and, if it can be sold in a way that makes the universe more interesting, I have a tendency of automatically including it in said interpretation.

If it comes down to me having to buy the books, it's going to have to wait for a long time. I'm automatically suspicious with GW publications.

Makes me sound like a grumpy old codger? Perhaps that's about right! :D


On to the topic, I am going to have to read these...'artbooks'. If anything, it goes to explain the workings of the Throne itself to some degree, I would imagine.
It's a shame that 'ole Portent is down. Many of the ideas that seem to be cropping up in the 'fluff' seem to be very similar to those originally published on that forum back in 2000-2001. Not saying that anything necessarily untoward is going on, though.


However, i tend to agree with Kage, i suspect that the Eldar closed the warpgate off before mankind crawled from the swamps.
Personally I feel that it might make a certain amount of sense when coupled with the fact that analysis of the remains might have led to the Emperor's experimentations on warp tunnels and gates. The fact that it is similar to the Webway doesn't have to make it the same as the Webway.


The more I hear about the Horus Heresy Artbook background, the less I like it.
It seems that they're ranked up there with the HH CCG material.

Kage

elvinltl
05-12-2006, 14:49
1st) Webway Portals are constructed by Eldar with Wraithbone material and can only be activated by psykers or induced physic powers.

2nd) These portals have shrould or cloaking capability and are usually well hidden in dense jungles.

3rd) These portals are probably well guarded and considered classified information. Only high ranking officials have access to study these portals. In addition, it may be quarantin in case any warp daemons or eldar or their dark kins suddenly emerge and strike unexpectedly.

Noserenda
05-12-2006, 16:27
The Imperial Webway wasnt something the Emperor knocked up overnight, ive not read HH4 but im assuming that it was the Top Secret Project the Emperor was working on? The one that put the Imperium into the Hands of Beauracracy and was a source of irritation to certain Legions... Meh.

As for the Eldar invading through that Webway portal, well if nothing else theres a Titan or two inside the Throne room isnt there?

Kage2020
05-12-2006, 17:30
One has to wonder the number of Eldar scientists and philosophers searched for the answers that led to the development of the Webway. Yet one man and some ancilliary staff knock it up in a few millennia... Or even tens of millennia if you believe that the Emperor was working on it from the get-go.

For me, it comes down to what is more interesting, yet again. Is it more interesting to have one of the central premises of the Eldar stood on by the Imperium, more so given the normal separation of 'fluff', the wargame and the army Theme? I would answer that 'no', though see no problem of the Imperium looking into the development of that technology. Hence the above suggestion about the Emperor developing a "primitive" Webway. After all, that itself is the technology of the Old Ones. Surely that's already powerful enough. (Even more so for those that wish to believe that the Emperor is an Old One. Darned Xenology tablet. ;))

Kage

Mr_Rose
05-12-2006, 18:02
One has to wonder the number of Eldar scientists and philosophers searched for the answers that led to the development of the Webway. Yet one man and some ancilliary staff knock it up in a few millennia... Or even tens of millennia if you believe that the Emperor was working on it from the get-go.
The Eldar were taught how to build the webway by the Old Ones, who used it extensively in their war against the necrontyr. In fact, the Eldar are apparently an elaborate bio-weapon for use in that same war, much like the Orks...

Plus, when you say "one man and some ancillary staff" what you actually mean is "~a thousand of the greatest genius' available on both Earth and Mars at the time, led by the single greatest mortal psyker in all of history". And that lot couldn't figure out at least the basic rudiments of a psychic technology?

Kage2020
05-12-2006, 19:29
Why do I do this to myself? ;)


The Eldar were taught how to build the webway by the Old Ones...
That is one interpretation, and seemingly based on fragmentary references and subsequent misinterpretation. Indeed, the primary references that I can remember comes from Codex Necrons:


Their understanding of the slow dance of the universe allowed them to manipulate alternate dimensions and they undertook great works of psychic engineering. Their science allowed them to cross the vast gulfs of space with a step...

And:


The Old Ones' intergalactic network was breached...
Only one specifically refers to the Webway, i.e.


Created by technologies once taught to the Eldar by the ancient races known as the Old Ones...
(Although one can argue that this is "power creep" and "edition drift" operating together.) Not forgetting, of course, a slightly older reference that springs to mind:


One challenge they took up was the complete mastery of warp-gate technology. The Eldar adopted, refined and perfected the ancient Slann knowledge of the warp and its movements. They established a network of wormhole tunnels through warp space, linking gates aboard their craft-worlds, planets and smaller spaceships. It was possible for an Eldar to walk from one planet to another, across hundreds or thousands of light-years of real space. The warp-gates bound the Eldar together as a single civilisation, stretching across space and, it was theorised, backwards and forwards in time. The Eldar fearful of the consequences, never experimented with the temporal aspect of the warp-gates.
And to argue for it once more, there is the 'fluff' from, darned, I forget where:


While the Old Slann taught the Eldar about the dangers of the warp, they also taught them about its many positive aspects. They taught how the mind of a living creature passes upon death into the warp, where it may, if the individual mind has achieved power, remain whole and immortal as a spirit in the warp. The Old Slann believed that the object of life was to perfect the mind, and thereby achieve conscious immortality as a spirit in the warp. Once created an immortal spirit could reincarnate as a living creature, and would always return to the warp as a whole spirit upon death. However, the Old Slann also warned that such an existence was impossible if an individual's own thoughts were too close to those of a Power of Chaos, for when that happened a deceased consciousness would be devoured by the greater Power, losing its identity and melting into it.

So, there is this to-and-froing as to the Eldar-as-slaves/students and the Eldar as a dynamic, living race.

I have, and will continue to argue, the Eldar took up the study of warpgates (that failed) and through their endeavours created the Webway. Then again, I find the premise that one must attribute everything to the Old Ones and that it, and their conflict with the C'tan, defines the entirety of the Eldar.


In fact, the Eldar are apparently an elaborate bio-weapon for use in that same war, much like the Orks...
Yes, that is an unfortunate product that is difficult to be too sceptical with, more so with the suspiciously "perfect" Eldar. Of course, with that said there is nothing to say that the eldar haven't monkeyed around with their physiology but, of course, with Codex Necrons it is now laid at the feet of a progenitor race. Again.


Plus, when you say "one man and some ancillary staff" what you actually mean is "~a thousand of the greatest genius' available on both Earth and Mars at the time, led by the single greatest mortal psyker in all of history". And that lot couldn't figure out at least the basic rudiments of a psychic technology?
The Webway is not meant to be rudimentary psychic engineering in any way. I am not underattributing the abilities of the Emperor and his staff, but rather am not knee-jerkingly singing its praises and buying into the "flavour" of the Emperor-as-god and, therefore, omniscient perfection. One thing that I would point out is that the Emperor during this time had some other business to deal with (read: Great Crusade even after he dialled back, formation of a new government and, earlier, the Age of Strife, etc.). How does that, and his extended lifespan, compare against potentially millions of scientists working for millions of years?

Just something to consider, more so since I wouldn't want to tell you what you actually mean! ;)

Kage

Pacific
05-12-2006, 21:32
Of course, this presupposes that you don't subscribe to the idea that the Emperor is an Old One. I'm not fond of this, to say the least, feeling that Xenology and that darned tablet has a heck of a lot to answer for in terms of way-out-there speculation. (Though there is a hint, or even huge deal of, hypocrisy in that! :D) If you do subscribe to that idea? Wahey. Jolly good.
Kage

Kage, please tell me more about this reference in the Xenology book. I admit to only having skim-read it, but saying that the Emporer is an 'old-one' seems like quite a large claim to me! It also adds a massive shadow of doubt over much of the other 40k history in so far as his motives are concerned.



Because the Imperium isn't "such a problem for the Eldar." In fact, there are several Eldar factions that seem to have a vested interest in the Imperium's survival in one form or another for the forseen future (barring the approaching End of Times).

And on the subject of the so-called "Imperial webway"...it matters little. It wasn't really mentioned in Draco (not that this lack of mention means it doesn't exist or anything) and the Inquisitor background suggests that the reasons for the Emperor's extended enthronement go beyond the Emperor's personal politics and power no matter what the Horus Heresy art books might suggest. So the situation is much, much more complicated than "Emperor-as-cork."


I would tend to agree with this. It is well documented concerning the Eldar that no matter how 'enigmatic' their policies are, most of them realise that their time is coming to an end. They also realise that its in their interests to help humanity occupy the void that they will leave behind, and that even though they view human kind as being barbarians, at times they need to be guided by the hand until a stage of enlightenment can be reached.

This is well documented in the Inquisitor War trilogy that the eldar had been helping humans free themselves of the yoke of daemonic possession, and were perhaps even responsible for aiding and abetting the immortal sons of the Emperer around the galaxy.

But in any case I would argue against the Eldar's motives of a direct assault on earth as whos interest would they be serving?

Kage2020
05-12-2006, 21:50
Kage, please tell me more about this reference in the Xenology book. I admit to only having skim-read it, but saying that the Emporer is an 'old-one' seems like quite a large claim to me! It also adds a massive shadow of doubt over much of the other 40k history in so far as his motives are concerned.
Nothing that interesting I'm afraid, Pacific. A part of that book is a picture of a tablet, which people have often interpreted as "proof" that the Emperor is an Old One. If you do a search for threads on the subject, or take a gander at the related threads, you'll probably be able to find a picture of it.

Kage

Commander Ozae
05-12-2006, 22:02
God i hate that tablet. It's so ambiguous it could mean anything. However, it does clearly seem to reference that the Old Ones created the eldar and other races in their war with the Necrons and it seems to hint that some of the Old Ones might have become the basis for the eldar gods.

Kage2020
05-12-2006, 22:05
All of which isn't a problem to integrate into the 'fluff', though even that interpretation is partially based off the interpreting Inquisitor's words. Of course, that has been discussed to death before. I was but answering the question posed by Pacific.

Kage

orangesm
05-12-2006, 23:02
The bigger problem I see with the original post is the idea that the Imperium is the biggest threat to the Eldar Civilization.

I think quiet the contrary is true.

First, the Imperium is an occasional threat to the Eldar, but does not have a policy of seeking out every Eldar and exterminating them.

The Imperium and Eldar relationship that is we will generally leave each other alone unless our interest directly conflict. If are interest our directly in support of each other we may cooperate. There are bigger fish to fry.

Eldar do not seek to 'conquorer' any worlds and bring them into the greater empire of the Eldar, regardless of species (the Tau).

Also if the Eldar have been known to manipulate other races frequently. The 2nd and 3rd Wars of Armaggeddon are the indirect result of the Eldar effecting the future paths. It may have saved a single exodite world a single day of raiding, saving 1000 Eldar, maybe.

The Eldar need the Imperium. The reverse is not nessecarily true, but there is not a direct policy focusing on the Eldar outside of the Anti-Xenos policy.

Hellfury
06-12-2006, 03:00
First of it: It is not an Eldar portal.

Second: It is in fact the only one existing human/Technically built portal.

Third: The Golden Throne is this portal.

Fourth: It is sealed. BY THE EMPEROR PERSONALLY !:D

Fifth: You'll find that fluff-wise in the chapter "Beyond the Golden Throne" in the artbook Horus Heresy IV


Nice the emperors wide ass is blocking the only known portal to and from terra. Someone should tell him to move.

VERITAS/AEQUITAS
06-12-2006, 16:31
Nice the emperors wide ass is blocking the only known portal to and from terra. Someone should tell him to move.


And bringing death and destruction to Terra, killing the Mankind's leader and biggest protector the momentum the portal opens as the Warp itself would enter his realm and demonic creatures attacking the Palace from within? :eek:

Mr_Rose
06-12-2006, 17:48
The Webway is not meant to be rudimentary psychic engineering in any way. I am not underattributing the abilities of the Emperor and his staff, but rather am not knee-jerkingly singing its praises and buying into the "flavour" of the Emperor-as-god and, therefore, omniscient perfection. One thing that I would point out is that the Emperor during this time had some other business to deal with (read: Great Crusade even after he dialled back, formation of a new government and, earlier, the Age of Strife, etc.). How does that, and his extended lifespan, compare against potentially millions of scientists working for millions of years?
Begging your pardon, but I never said that the webway was in any way rudimentary, and I am puzzled as to how you came to that conclusion.
I actually said that it is entirely plausible that an awesomely powerful psyker, with the assistance of a number of very smart people would be able to figure out the underlying operating principles.

Also, the amount of research put into developing the technology and perfecting it is seldom relevant to the amount that must be put into deciphering an existing technology. If it were, very few people would trouble to spy on each others industrial secrets; it would be cheaper and less risky to develop them independently...

Similarly, wars seldom require the constant and direct input of the supreme commander, and Humans have known how to build governments on an almost instinctual level since the first smart guy declared himself in charge then hired the toughs to enforce it, what, 60,000 years ago? Maybe more...

Finally, I do not see anything in your quotes that refutes my position that the Old Ones first developed warp-tunnel technology, then taught it to the Eldar who used their apparently completely different perspective on the universe to perfect it, creating the Webway.
This leaves us with two layers; the warp-tunnel itself, which is apparently what the Emperor built, and the refined command&control the Eldar developed for it which I'm pretty sure he couldn't replicate... Hence why he needed to personally regulate it once his team's technological solution was proved ineffective...

P.S. I believe that the reason the Eldar don't use the palace gate to destroy Earth is something to do with the fact that if they did, it would leave an open breach into the Webway from the warp, one of the Eldar race's collective worst nightmares...

Rockerfella
06-12-2006, 18:15
I apologise if i misinterpret you here, but are you saying that the Emperor now built the Webway?

Can't we just be a little more accepting of the idea that the Eldar probably built the warpgate 30 million years before the Emperor was even 'born', and as such decided to close that gate on terra long before humanity slurped its way from primordial soup?

Me? I prefer this idea, rather than the usual 'The Emperor can do anything' type offal and detritus we seem to be experiencing lately.

Cheers!

:)

Kage2020
06-12-2006, 21:46
Begging your pardon, but I never said that the webway was in any way rudimentary, and I am puzzled as to how you came to that conclusion.
Indeed, you didn't. All I merely said that it wasn't a rudimentary technology.


I actually said that it is entirely plausible that an awesomely powerful psyker, with the assistance of a number of very smart people would be able to figure out the underlying operating principles.
And I was merely pointing out the flip side of the coin, Mr_Rose. That the Eldar are themselves powerful psykers and have been around for a little bit longer. And, one would presume, that it took them at least a short while to develop it (notwithstanding their likely different perception to task resolution given their enhanced longevity). Furthermore, they also had something to work on (the remnant technologies of the Old Ones), while the Emperor did not seemingly have such advantages. Of course, you could say that he was working off the technology of the portal but (i.e. the obvious retroengineering angle)...

And therein lies the crux. There are a whole skein of assumptions and suppositions which come down to interpretation of the the 'fluff' or, rather (and more importantly), the inter-relationship of 'fluff'. Thus:


Can the sum total operational technology be understood by the study of an operational portal, either psychically or with mundane technology? ['Fluff' suggests that a Webway portal can be studied by mundane technology, though that does not mean that you understand what the data is saying or can replicate the advanced technology that it represents.]
If a psyker is studying the Webway, does their power truly matter? Or is it their understanding. [Common interpretation differentiates between power and skill. While the Emperor had large amounts of the former, and presumably some of the latter, that still does not translate to "study the Webway, recreate the Webway".]
Does study of a thing given understanding of the theories and processes behind that thing? [You might consider this the Terminator 2: Judgement Day argument, i.e. it might put you working along new avenues, but that doesn't mean that you can recreate all the variable 'disciplines' that went into the creation of said technology.]
Is Imperial, or even Golden/Dark Age human technology, of sufficient advancement to be able to understand Eldar technology? [Noting here that, of course, Eldar technology encompasses both mundane and psychic engineering, the latter of which had arguably minimal impact on G/DAoT theories/artefacts. Also, 'fluff' indicates that Eldar technology is far in advance of anything produced by the humans, with one noteable exception: Dark Adeptus. Furthermore, only two pieces of Eldar technology have been either retroengineered or utliises (that spring to mind anyway): shuriken catapults, and the "Soulhelm" used by... bugger, forget what Inquisitor.]
Does Eldar technology really encompass both mundane and psychic engineering, or solely psychic engineering. This would make retroengineering more problematic. [You can find examples and implications of both in the 'fluff'.]


The list goes on. While I believe that the Emperor and his scientists utilise an active Webway portal to be able to build up new theories upon the nature of such constructs, I do not believe that this equates to him being able to skip building up and understanding the theories. Hence the Terminator 2 example, i.e. psychic and mundane study of the Webway portal would allow him to construct advanced theories that would lead them in new directions, but that doesn't mean you can miss out all the middle steps. While you can use this as the standard argument for STC and the "Adeptus Me-can't-icus", when applied to advanced xenotechnology...? Well, it might not be so obviously workeable. Again, though, it depends on how much you're willing to suspend disbelief.

Quick example. While it might be feasible for a late 19th or early 20th century gunsmith to take a modern assault rifle and retrogineer it to provide a functional version, it would be manifestly more difficult for them to do so with a laser gun. Why? Because they don't have the theoretical knowledge to be able to understand the process and, perhaps more importantly, the materials (etc.) technology to produce it.

Of course the above makes use of discprenancy between scientific/technological understanding and, as one might imagine, it then becomes a judgement call as to what the discprenacy is. I would say that it is marked. Indeed, to relate it to the real world, if the Eldar utilised modern technology, the Imperium would be sometime around the later Iron Age, and the GDAoT somewhere around the mid-19th century. Again, that's just for me, though.

Bringing this back to the Webway example, I would once again say that even though one might vaunt the Emperor's psychic prowess and give him "a thousand intelligent scientists" it still doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be able to move from "functional portal" to "complete understanding".

Now, I can hear the obvious counter to that point already. "I'm not saying that it was complete understanding. After all, if it was complete understanding they wouldn't have had to cork it up with the Imperial derriere!" Why do I say obvious? Merely because I agree with it as stated above. That is, the Warp Gate Network may be seen as a "proto-Webway" (cf. WD105). The Emperor and his scientists study the Webway portal and begin to build up fragmentary understanding of the process and create what is, in essence, a stabilised Warp Gate. This may peripherally or directly interact with the Eldar Webway (I would say periperhally), but it is not the Webway itself per se: it is a "primitive portal". Indeed, although this might create a knee-jerk reaction for obvious reasons, one might point out the ultimate fate of the "Imperial portal" and the Warp Gates of the Old Slann on the Warhammer Fantasy world.


Finally, I do not see anything in your quotes that refutes my position that the Old Ones first developed warp-tunnel technology...
Congratulations! You will note, however, because they incorporate both quotes for and against. Further, note also that I have from the get-go been distinguishing between the Warp Gate Network (of the Old Slann/Ones) and the Webway of the Eldar. Hence my original and continued suggestion with the Imperial portal, i.e. that it is the former rather than the latter. (Thereby creating arguably the most consistent interpretation.)

As to the Eldar "learning" from the Old Ones? I have no problem with that and, indeed, it is one of the stapes of sci-fi, sci-fantasy and (for 40k, future) fantasy literature. Whether it is ancient tech, rediscovered magic, or ancient grimoires, it's all broadly the same. No problem with that whatsoever. I would, however, propose that there is a difference between the flavour of this archaeological study of ancient technologies, and the Eldar being bounced on the froggy/whatever legs of benign teachers.

Please note that the comments are not directly specified at you, Mr_Rose, nor do they accurately portray the specifics of your comments. They are to address the comments, but sometimes goes beyond (or within or completely parallel) in the attempt to be relatively complete.


I believe that the reason the Eldar don't use the palace gate to destroy Earth is something to do with the fact that if they did, it would leave an open breach into the Webway from the warp, one of the Eldar race's collective worst nightmares...
Webway portals can seemingly be sealed and, further, can arguably be removed or destroyed without necessarily leaving a breach.

Kage

Vandur Last
07-12-2006, 04:56
Nice posting Kage.
I agree with you that the Warp Gates (such as the one that doomed the WHFB world) form the basis of the more advanced Eldar Webway.

IMHO the thing the Emperor built would have been just a primitive attempt to create or replicate a Warp Gate. To make a real world comparison...

If the Webway is a 2006 Toyota Camry then the Warp Gates were a model T-Ford whilst the Emperors construct was a functioning combustion engine that could, theoretically, be attached to some wheels.

It goes from proving the theory of the technology to being able to use an unstable version of it right up to the fully fledged marketable product.

BTW those posts about the Eldar and the Slaan were very interesting. Do you mind informing us where they came from when you get a chance? (assuming you can remeber or dig it up)

Mr_Rose
07-12-2006, 14:59
Again, I never said that the Emperor created anything even close to the "true webway" of the Eldar. In all likelihood, he found a broken warp-gate left by the Old Ones, which are described as technological in a way that the webway is not, and either reactivated it or retrofitted a bunch of warp drive parts to produce the same effect.
I am saying one extra thing though; either by accident or design, he managed to flub the connection protocols and establish a semi-permanent link to the actual Webway. creating a whole bunch of extra problems. According to the artbook version of history, he had no real idea what he stumbled into and was sending in teams of praetorian guard to explore these mysterious tunnels when the first daemons attacked his little bit of warp-tunnel.

On the final point, yes, Webway portals can be sealed, permanently if necessary, however warp-tunnels were never meant to be active for more than a few hours at a time, so the easiest way to shut them down permanently was to break the mechanism. What I think happened is an unfortunate interaction of two separate but related technologies that were never meant to operate together in the manner described producing an unintended effect.

Kage2020
07-12-2006, 15:29
Again, I never said that the Emperor created anything even close to the "true webway" of the Eldar.
Never said you did. I was reiterating my point to indicate that you need not take umbrage. It seems that we broadly agree on many things, though I would personally limit the "power" associated to specific items in the background, such as the ability of the Emperor to represent super-advanced technologies because he is the Emperor, etc. (Again, you say that you're not saying this, and I'm merely pointing out that this is something that I personally prefer to do!)


In all likelihood, he found a broken warp-gate left by the Old Ones...
Still prefer the portal of the Eldar Webway so as not to, once again, engage in C'toeism (or the association of the origins of practically everything to the C'tan or the Old Ones). It's a preference gig.


...which are described as technological in a way that the webway is not...
Haven't encountered that bit before, though based upon the sheer description of the Webway portals that I have encountered, are both technological and psychic (i.e. technomantic for want of a better 40k term).


I am saying one extra thing though; either by accident or design, he managed to flub the connection protocols and establish a semi-permanent link to the actual Webway. creating a whole bunch of extra problems.
That's reasonable, though I would strongly doubt that the "daemons" are pouring into the Eldar Webway now. ;)


What I think happened is an unfortunate interaction of two separate but related technologies that were never meant to operate together in the manner described producing an unintended effect.
I would personally argue that the technologies are related, but there we go.

Kage

Rockerfella
07-12-2006, 18:31
If the Webway is a 2006 Toyota Camry then the Warp Gates were a model T-Ford whilst the Emperors construct was a functioning combustion engine that could, theoretically, be attached to some wheels.



Excellent exapmple! Love it! :)

Makes you wonder just how advance the slippery Eldar technology actually is.. fascinating!

eldaran
06-02-2007, 18:25
Just wanted to ask, if the eldar had closed the webway portal before humans evolved, wouldn't this have been due to divination, and if thy could have diinated this, couldn't they have forseen the Fall and therefore taken steps to prevent this???

gitburna
06-02-2007, 19:30
RE the Webway.

I was under the impression that the webway wasnt so much created by the eldar as inherited. That the old ones had created the framework and the eldar merely built and expanded on it, and refined it according to their own whims. The reason its generally known as the "Eldar webway" is because... they "own" it now. As far as the eldar having a portal on earth, as others have said i cant say ive read a single piece of background written from about 1991 to the present saying "The eldar built a portal and its here" . There might be some really old stuff thats been printed from a time when the eldar dont have warp spiders [or indeed any aspect warriors at all,] no tau no hrud no commissar yarrick etc etc. And fair play, if between them the people in charge of the GW background have decided that an eldar webway portal was a stupid idea lets change it a bit but still keep it mostly the same" then so be it. I didnt hear anyone moaning when they got rid of chaos worshipping genestealer broodbrothers, harlequin landraiders, zoats, in fact chaos worshipping *everythings* etc etc.

Fact is the GW universe and backstory is ever expanding and as with many things, you can sometimes look back on something that has been done in the past and decide.."that was actually a bit crap"

We do it ourselves with our armies all the time. Which of us builds an army and rigidly uses it exactly the same year in year out forever more without changing one single thing? I personally like the way that the necron and old one/slann backstory has been bought into 40k, and after wondering exactly what in the hell the emperor was doing all that time in his palace [a palace the size of a country and chocked full of research labs] its great to have an interesting answer. I remember a great quote originally attributed to Rick Priestly [and spoken by Andy Chambers] who said something like "It never pays to be too tidy with a background because there are always things you want to come back to"

Kage2020
06-02-2007, 20:58
Fact is the GW universe and backstory is ever expanding and as with many things, you can sometimes look back on something that has been done in the past and decide.."that was actually a bit crap"
And at the same time look to the stuff that is being produced in the modern material and say the same thing.

Kage

ryng_sting
07-02-2007, 16:28
A reminder: the Emperor and his scientists only built a tiny conduit leading to a section of the webway that had been long abandoned by the Eldar. This is, naturally, no lean effort - as the maintenance of that small tunnel stretched even his powers to their limits. But it was still only a small backdoor into someone else's unimaginably greater construction. I've always seen the Emperor as supremely well informed, but still fallible.

Bottom line: it was a failed experiment. One thing puzzles me. Had the Emperor succeeded in cleansing the tunnel and fixing the damage, however, how would he have accessed the other warp portals in order to travel across the Imperium? would he have had to lead every army in person? Set himself up permanently us a human 'traffic light' in the webway?

Rockerfella
07-02-2007, 16:42
And, not to mention, how would the wandering Halrequins, the Pheonix Lords, migrating masses of rangers and possibly the laughing god himself react to the Emperor and his cronies wandering aimlessly through 'their' webway?

How would they go undetected? I know the webway is VAST.. but stilll.....

Emperor's Grace
08-02-2007, 21:11
May be moot by this point, but:

What if he didn't have to build the Camry, only find the keys?

Say he finds a way to reopen the portal that the eldar shut....

Luthien
08-02-2007, 21:35
no human can do that the only one who stood a possible chance is now little more than a rotting corpse

Vandur Last
09-02-2007, 10:40
What if he didn't have to build the Camry, only find the keys?


I dunno. If we stick to the analogy of the portal being a car we could say that the Webway and its paths equate to the highway. Finding the highway is all well and good but you cant use it if you havent got the car.

Sekhmet
10-02-2007, 07:44
Err, isn't that what GW does since the begining?? There were years without such a thing called the TAU and whoomp there it was. Necrons?? whoomp here we go....

Eldar warp portal? Maybe..maybe not. Who knows ;)

To be fair, the Necrons were around half way through 2nd edition, way before the Dark Eldar and any Black Libary book.

And the Tau, on the galactic scale, mean nothing. They have like.. what.. 12 planets in their "Empire"? Even if they were around in 2nd, or even 1st edition, in terms of fluff, 99.99% of Humans would not know what Tau are nor would they care. They pose such a small threat in the grand scheme of things they're not worth noting.



If the Webway is a 2006 Toyota Camry then the Warp Gates were a model T-Ford whilst the Emperors construct was a functioning combustion engine that could, theoretically, be attached to some wheels.

That's true, but look at it this way. If the Emperor built a model-T, he's on the way to making a '06 Camry. It took us thousands of years to make an internal combustion engine, but once it worked it quickly advanced and spread throughout our culture.

Rockerfella
10-02-2007, 10:04
in terms of fluff, 99.99% of Humans would not know what Tau are nor would they care. They pose such a small threat in the grand scheme of things they're not worth noting.

Well, i'm not so sure about this.

99.9% of humans live in utter ignorance in the 40k universe anyway. Humans are, well.. ignorant. I think its fair to say that said 99.9% of humans have probably never heard of the Eldar. Although the Eldar certainly don't come into a 'not a big enough threat to worth noting' bracket.



That's true, but look at it this way. If the Emperor built a model-T, he's on the way to making a '06 Camry. It took us thousands of years to make an internal combustion engine, but once it worked it quickly advanced and spread throughout our culture.

Pure supposition here weilded like the wailing doom itself.

I prefer to look at it like this. The emperor couldn't at the height of his power or technological 'mastery' fully comprehend the workings and intricacies of the webway. He didn't build a model t ford. He made something akin to Fred Flinstones foot runner mobile to be fair. Not then or now have the imperium been able to replicate eldar technology, even something as simple as a shuriken pistol.

In my view (of course i could be way off the mark) he's sat on an old Eldar warpgate long forgotten or closed by the ancient Eldar. I'm guessing this web/warpgate was built on a planet seeded by either the Eldar or the old ones millions of years before humanity even existed.

Just a thought.

Kage2020
10-02-2007, 13:55
The emperor couldn't at the height of his power or technological 'mastery' fully comprehend the workings and intricacies of the webway.
Amusingly the Eldar in the original 'fluff' supposedly transcended the knowledge of the Old Slann in the creation of the Webway, moving beyond their simpler "Warp Gate Network". Of course, balancing that with the newer 'fluff' takes a bit more effort, but there we go.


Not then or now have the imperium been able to replicate eldar technology, even something as simple as a shuriken pistol.
Technically incorrect. The factories of Mars used to produce limited quantities of shuriken weaponry. It was limited in numbers, I believe, and was considered vastly inferior to the Eldar version, but it was essentially the same weapon.

...Not that surprising all things considered.

Then again, personally I'm rather keen on ensuring that the tech discrepancy between the Imperium and the Eldar - and all the other races - is visible. Or, at least, I try and keep it that way in the RPG side of things. :D

Kage

Sekhmet
10-02-2007, 18:49
I prefer to look at it like this. The emperor couldn't at the height of his power or technological 'mastery' fully comprehend the workings and intricacies of the webway. He didn't build a model t ford. He made something akin to Fred Flinstones foot runner mobile to be fair. Not then or now have the imperium been able to replicate eldar technology, even something as simple as a shuriken pistol.

Pure opinion here wielded like the spear of twilight itself.

You don't have to point out when people use supposition so often, especially when you use it in the next paragraph. I mean, it's like every other post I read by you you're saying their posts are simply opinion or supposition, and you say it in a condescending manner.

It's a forum discussing a fictional universe where lies and deceit are part of every single piece of "canonical" fluff. EVERYTHING is an assumption or opinion, you don't have to state the obvious.

eleveninches
10-02-2007, 20:27
IIRC, the portal is being blocked by the emperor, and thats why he is on his golden throne, as almost all of his psychic might is dedicated to keeping it closed to prevent daemons from coming through, so the eldar would not be able to use it

Kage2020
10-02-2007, 21:10
EVERYTHING is an assumption or opinion, you don't have to state the obvious.
There are, however, trends in the 'fluff'. One of those is, for example,to associate with the Emperor all manner of things including basic carte blanche to be able to do anything.

Trend versus interpretation. Where does one go?

Kage

Sekhmet
10-02-2007, 21:19
Trend versus interpretation. Where does one go?


Home, to cry. :cries:

GodofWarTx
10-02-2007, 21:36
Eldar do not seek to 'conquorer' any worlds and bring them into the greater empire of the Eldar, regardless of species (the Tau).



Except those who follow the dogma of the Swordwind on Beil Tan, who DO seek to somehow reconquer and reforge a new eldar empire, but for the most part, yes, eldar dont seek to rebuild their empire.

Rockerfella
11-02-2007, 23:06
Pure opinion here wielded like the spear of twilight itself.

You don't have to point out when people use supposition so often, especially when you use it in the next paragraph. I mean, it's like every other post I read by you you're saying their posts are simply opinion or supposition, and you say it in a condescending manner.

It's a forum discussing a fictional universe where lies and deceit are part of every single piece of "canonical" fluff. EVERYTHING is an assumption or opinion, you don't have to state the obvious.

Firstly, it may be suppostition, but at least I prefix my 'supposition' with the likes of 'In my opinion' or 'i like to think of it like this' or 'i may be wrong but...'. and not just say it like its a given or a fact.

You're as guilty as the next man Sekhmet. I think you see what you want to see. I've replied to messages from you politely and using manners the likes of which have never been seen before on this board. Privately too i might add.

Secondly, i rarely if ever have commented on someone's personality or posting traits/manner on this board. Think on that the next time you accuse me of being 'condescending'.

[/QUOTE] Technically incorrect. The factories of Mars used to produce limited quantities of shuriken weaponry. It was limited in numbers, I believe, and was considered vastly inferior to the Eldar version, but it was essentially the same weapon. [/QUOTE]

This is interesting, as it clearly says in the new codex that no other race has replicated Eldar technology (page 13) But i know you're right, because in the books (i think maybe it was the novel Harlequin) there were humans running round with shuriken pistols in the hive cities. Literally thousands of them. :)

[/QUOTE] ...Not that surprising all things considered. [/QUOTE]

Absolutely....

[/QUOTE] Then again, personally I'm rather keen on ensuring that the tech discrepancy between the Imperium and the Eldar - and all the other races - is visible. Or, at least, I try and keep it that way in the RPG side of things. [/QUOTE]

Again, i follw this view. I like to see that the technological difference is obvious in the manner in which it is alledgedly meant to be. If that makes sense? :wtf:

I will however be leaving this thread now and viewing and observing the posts only.

Next time you have something to say to me about my posting manner Sekhmet, i'll be more than happy to speak to you about it privately.

Thanks in advance.

Kage2020
11-02-2007, 23:20
This is interesting, as it clearly says in the new codex that no other race has replicated Eldar technology (page 13)...
Thanks for the reference. It seems, however, that we must balance all the available information rather than just taking the approach of Revisionism, i.e. new is true. At least based upon what GW seems to be working with in terms of their definition of "canon". Indeed, it's somewhat akin to Dogma's differentiation between 'believing' and 'having an idea'. :D


But i know you're right, because in the books (i think maybe it was the novel Harlequin) there were humans running round with shuriken pistols in the hive cities. Literally thousands of them. :)
I don't quite remember all those shuriken pistols, to be fair. Just because it can be produced doesn't mean that it is done so in huge quantities. Thus other alternatives might need to be explored... ;)


I like to see that the technological difference is obvious in the manner in which it is alledgedly meant to be. If that makes sense?
If a race is more advanced they should be more advanced, at a guess.

Kage

grimsnagga
12-02-2007, 00:09
Why? – because Alan Merrit writes in the Preface of each of the four books that he likes to thank Rick and Jervis for reading and editing them. So, the creators of 40k said Mr. Merrit that his storyline is exactly true.

I hate to say this, but I have actually written licensed fiction for a sci-fi setting, which was reviewed and approved by the creators of that setting. I can tell you in all honesty that I believe this arguement carries very little weight.

Rockerfella
12-02-2007, 12:58
Thanks for the reference.

No worries. If i've learned one thing on this forum its to make sure you have some evidence... :angel:


It seems, however, that we must balance all the available information rather than just taking the approach of Revisionism, i.e. new is true. At least based upon what GW seems to be working with in terms of their definition of "canon". Indeed, it's somewhat akin to Dogma's differentiation between 'believing' and 'having an idea'. :D

Yeah, couldn't agree more. There is some wonderful older Eldar fluff. And again, I guess ones own interpretation leads and lends itself to how one prefers to observe the 40k universe.



I don't quite remember all those shuriken pistols, to be fair. Just because it can be produced doesn't mean that it is done so in huge quantities. Thus other alternatives might need to be explored...

Well, its the part where Jaq and co are running on some Hive world full of Slaaneshi cultists. The cultists are either all armed with shuriken weaponry or simple bolt pistols (or equivalent of)



If a race is more advanced they should be more advanced, at a guess.

Indeed. But, isn't it amazing how the quite large technological gap is so easily overcome by good ole fashioned human determination most of the time. :eyebrows: ;)

Kage[/QUOTE]

avengerx71
12-02-2007, 20:16
In Fluff doesn't it say that the Eldar are a dieing breed. Having some awful battle long ago and ended up creating the 4th chaos god Slaanesh. Now there worlds aren't really words anymore but more or less Colonies made of wraithbone. So the Eldar pretty much can't muster the numbers that would be needed to invade holy Terra.

Not only that but the Eldar are in need someone to help fight off the hordes of chaos.

eleveninches
13-02-2007, 07:59
The portal is sealed from daemons by the emperor. i doubt he would let eldar in either.

Alessander
13-02-2007, 12:04
The Golden Throne webway project was supposed to be a success, because it had an artificial daemon-proof sheath that kept out daemons that lurked outside the webway. Unlike the eldar webway, this sheath didn't regenerate by iteself, and needed the Emperor to use his psyker abilities to keep it regenerating. It was an easy task, and the Emperor could do it without much thought.

Magnus' piercing message shattered the wards across the human webway and allowed tons of daemons to invade both terra and the webway. The Emperor had to permanantly attach himself to the throne to-machine to keep the daemons out. Someone else took over for him while he combated Horus, but the strain killed the fill-in after just a few hours.

I think that's why the Eldar don't invade. Beyond the fact that there is an entire titan legion in the manmade webway area (it's very well defended), any attack on the Golden Throne would collapse the psychic sheath and expose the webway to an infinite number of daemons.

Kage2020
13-02-2007, 21:25
So once again the Emperor is the axis around which the entire galaxy must turn? Remember that the Eldar can seal off portions of the Webway. Thus it's not quite the problem that the above seems to suggest.

Perhaps? ;)

Kage