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pestario
07-07-2005, 12:58
As I started collecting a Daemon Hunter army I naturally started to look at Witchhunters as well.

As I was playing around with Army lists on Army Builder it occured to me Witchhunters seem to have more access to Heavy weapons in there regular squads as well as more options for Elite, troops, Etc. They are also cheaper pointwise while having close to the same stats as Daemon hunters. Plus there main troops can take Rhino or other transports while Grey Knights can only take expensive Land Raiders.

Could anyone with more experince in the two armies list pros and cons of both armies in comparisoon to one another.


Also are allies legal in Rouge traders and GTs?

Inquis. Jaeger
07-07-2005, 13:33
Daemonhunters have harder 'regular' troops, especially in close combat. They do, however, tend to be smaller due to the cost of Grey Knights. Witch Hunters have to rely on a few small elite, and somewhat unreliable, units (Penitent Engines etc) to do well in close combat, but I would say more resilient overall, due to the relatively small cost of Sisters. They also have more 'on-field' mobility (as opposed to deep strike etc) in the form of Rhinos/Chimeras/Immolators.

Both armies can be very powerful, but are certainly not beginner armies. Both play very differently and with a 'combined arms' approach, which is required due to the specialised nature of their units.

EDIT: I don't actually know the rules on allies in Inquisition armies. I think. as part of the regular list, allies between Inquisition armies/Marines/Guard are legal provided one uses one of the Inquisition lists as the 'parent' list

greendan
07-07-2005, 19:20
ahoy
i also started by collecting daemonhunters awhile back
and when the witch hunters arrived i was sucked in aswell

having large forces of both ive now virtually stopped using my daemonhunters
sisters are just more versatile and fun to use in my opinion

daemonhunters are very tricky to use against certain armies
especially power armoured opponents with alot of AV
plus i never really found them that versatile so they became kinda boring quickly


battle sisters are very very durable
able to inflict horrendous amounts of damage
and have some very good units

the exorcist being one of the best point for point vehicles in the game
retributors with heavy bolters are scary
the cannoness is amazing
arco flagellants are also fantastic, theyll get shot to bits mind you but if they get there WOOT!!
and seraphim with flamers are toasty goodness in fact seraphim are just good all round

and dont forget faith points!!
tehy make the army a real intimidating pain in the ass for whoever youre playing

they both have access to virtually all the same inquisitorial stuff
which can be useful like assassins etc

and a force with grey knights and sisters can work very well
so any existing grey knights you have you can incorporate to fill out places for bigger games
though to be honest you dont need them

but from my experience a force based mainly around sisters will take some beating
plus cmon its chicks with guns ;)

witch hunters all the way for me
just my two cents
meow

pestario
07-07-2005, 19:25
In playing around with lists I hardly take any GK stuff as is, they are just so expensive. My list ends up being an Inquistor, 2 units of IST then all IG stuff. Seems like the GK figs I have may go to waste.

The Ocasional list will use a GK Termi master with ret. but they suck up so many points I end up not getting all the toys I want.

Debating if I even want to paint up my remaning Grey Knight stuff or ebay it, at least the figs still tend to sell well on ebay :)

Azrael
07-07-2005, 21:59
I personally love witch hunters, there sweet inquisitors, big power armoured squads, and best of all, the emperor personally steps in and takes part through faith points. YA!!

sigur
07-07-2005, 22:09
Is it just me or are people starting to "play around with army builder" more than looking at codices? Time-efficient min-maxing across the codices?

Demon Hunters (I guess we're talking about GK in this situation) are very different to Witch Hunters; 2 seperate armies. While GK have only few, rock hard troops, SoB are more in numbers, but basically guardsmen in power armour with improved shooting ability. GK are often a bit ...displaced fluffwise as it seems to me while WH fighting almost any army always make sense in a way.

I felt a bit intrigued to start DH when the sweet codex and the GK minis were released, but WH are so much more interesting to me. Miniatures-wise, fluffwise, ruleswise.

Xander-K
07-07-2005, 22:15
aye daemonhunters are a tough cookie to get right, GK terminators are bloody evil units when they get up close though, even normal grey knights have str 6 :O which is nothing to be frowned upon.

I'd say you'd be best to use Daemonhunters as a couple of power armoured grey knights with plenty of fire support from inquisitorial stormtroopers and co.

Witchunters are pretty shooty orientated since you will need lots of basic sisters to make your list any good, although arco flagellents and seraphim squads do make your game very comical to say the least.

Eversor
07-07-2005, 22:28
I<snip> and best of all, the emperor personally steps in and takes part through faith points. YA!!
:chrome: It's not so much the Emperor/Starchild stepping in as it is the Sisters' own fanaticism manifesting as psychic activity. Much like Orks praying to Gork and Mork :D

But to stay more on topic, yes, the Sororitas are more interesting than the Grey Knights. More tactically flexible, and better models.

As for the Inquisitors themselves, I prefer Malleus over Hereticus. There's nothing like a shadowy agent who's job it is to scrutinize his peers, ready to put a bullet in anyone who falters. The Hereticus have just been corrupted by the very institution they're set to control... Which is kinda cool in its own way ;)

jazzdude78
07-07-2005, 22:40
Personally strength wise Hereticus wins hands down

I prefer the GK fluffwise though
the sisters minis are overall great though some of the new stuff isnt quite as good as the old

Minister
07-07-2005, 23:08
:chrome: It's not so much the Emperor/Starchild stepping in as it is the Sisters' own fanaticism manifesting as psychic activity. Much like Orks praying to Gork and Mork :D
The same cannot be said, however, of Kramazov'sability to survive Broadside salvo after salvo. The Emperor likes him (and me). =]:skull:[=

Warlord Gnashgrod
08-07-2005, 05:47
Yes, Grey Knights are very expensive. But you shouldn't have an army made purely out of Grey Knights anyway. You supplement the army with IG Conscripts or have allied codex marines instead.

A Grey Knight costs much more than he's worth at 25 points apiece. Grey Knights are the most expensive basic army trooper for any army. And I don't really see why, as they're not very good against most other armies. They're soley for Daemon armies.

Ouroboros
08-07-2005, 05:52
I've got to say I've never seen a DH vs WH game where the DH won. It seems as if the DH style of walk up/deepstrike in just plays directy to all the advantages Battle sisters have over them. Namely their already small squads get lit up by grotesque amounts of guided RF and templates/exorcists/meltaguns before they ever get to do anything more useful than unload storm bolters into 3+ save troops.

That said though the DH do have better Inquisitors both in the sense of henchmen and wargear they can take. Hereticus Inquisitors in general are pretty pants in both categories but the canoness makes up for it rather nicely.

pestario
08-07-2005, 12:57
Thats just the thing, it's hard to get excited about an Army when I just don't see any Advantages that DH have over WH. Yes Grey Knights are awesome but not 25 points awesome, you can get 2 sisters for 1 Grey Knight and still have 4 points left. You can mount sisters in Rhinos or other Vechiles that dont cost 250 points(Land Raiders) Plus there are options for Fast Attack, heavy Etc.

On top of this they still can get the Same inducted Guard units, IST, Etc. I'm still learning the game and rules and maybe it's my inexperince but I just don't see the advantage of DH, other than the figs are really cool, but so are the With Hunters.

zealousheretic
08-07-2005, 19:44
I personally love witch hunters, there sweet inquisitors, big power armoured squads, and best of all, the emperor personally steps in and takes part through faith points. YA!!

I dunno, I'd hesitate to play an army that relies on multiple acts of god for victory :D

Frecus
08-07-2005, 20:17
Excuse my newbness, but I'm still not sure what the DH codex has as units. My guess is:
-HQ: GK grand master, inq lord
-Elites: Inq, Daemonhost?, GK termies
-Troops: GK, storm troopers?
-No fast attack
-Heavy support: GK dread

If this is it, it is a dissapointing codex indeed in versatality... Surely, there should be more things for a deamon huner to use? I think GW should redesign this codex after the last 'special' space marine codex, mostly making it more versatile, with some fast attack & heavy support choices (maybe some mini-dreads? Or rhino borne asssault GK?).

Frecus
The glade wanderer
Madwarrior

zealousheretic
08-07-2005, 20:22
Darmonhunters have access to a variety of inducted or allied units from other imperial armies.

A slight nitpick, but you left out a couple of elites choices. I'm virtually certain DH can take assassins.

pestario
08-07-2005, 20:38
Yes DH can take assasians. And you can field a quite versitle army with inducted guard or marines(But using marines rules out GRey Knights so whats the point. Anyway the thing that gets me is the sisters have a ton of there own units which are much more reasonably priced. Plus they have access to the very same inducted units DH does

Negafex
08-07-2005, 21:01
id say that it would be a good idea to use gk as your specialized cc units and rely on sisters of battle for numbers and heavy weapons. for an hq though a grand master gk termi with a retinue of gk termis, a couple special weapons and a brother captain, may be expensive but it can take anything down from both range and cc and has unheard of survivability for an hq with the exception of the nids

Ouroboros
08-07-2005, 21:50
See the thing is though that with the acts of faith and a decently kitted squad leader it's entirely feasable for sisters to outperform or at least keep pace with a grey knight troop unit point for point in CC.

I've played against GK with my sisters before and the regular marines never worried me at all. Sure they wound me on 2s but that's only 1 better than the 3s that other marines do it on and it was never high toughness that was keeping me alive anyway, it was my armour and I still get that here.

I also get to worry about there being less marines cause they cost more and I don't have to doubt that they'll come close to me either, thus allowing me to hose them with rapid fire and meltaguns.

So basically my normal troops can beat their's at range point for point, can utterly destroy them at firefight range, point for point and can keep up with them in close combat using acts of faith and numbers point for point.

pestario
08-07-2005, 21:54
hose them with rapid fire and meltaguns.

So basically my normal troops can beat their's at range point for point, can utterly destroy them at firefight range, point for point and can keep up with them in close combat using acts of faith and numbers point for point.


Anyone wanna buy some grey knights? lol

Azrael
08-07-2005, 23:06
Frecus grey knights can take land raiders, crusaders, orbital bombardment, and purgation (devestator like) squads, plus their fast attack is deep striking grey knights, which isnt always great, but is takeable.

Eversore, it says on page 18 of the WH codex that the acts of faith are manifestations of the emperors purpose, small miracles. I find it amazing that these girls have that much power on there own, without a little :rolleyes: ...Help...Just a thought

Eversor
08-07-2005, 23:30
Eversore, it says on page 18 of the WH codex that the acts of faith are manifestations of the emperors purpose, small miracles. I find it amazing that these girls have that much power on there own, without a little :rolleyes: ...Help...Just a thought
:chrome: Which is a piece of 3:rd edition background I chose to treat as complete rubbish and revisionism ;) Besides the whole issue of the Emperor being oblivious to what his worshippers are doing (Starchild floating around mindlessly and all that. Food for another thread), having the sisters believing so hard that their faith manifests more or less physically is just so much cooler than a "god" actually stepping in :evilgrin:

I like the Emperor being helpless and locked away, and his subjects being manipulated by shadowy masters acting in His name, instead of Him actually intervening on the battlefield. That just seems tacky and too much like D&D.

Azrael
10-07-2005, 18:58
its plausable that they could fight faster or not die, but acts of faith shouldnt work on bolters