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LostTemplar
07-07-2005, 21:18
I have heard, from a store owner that I know and speak to at times, that the Black Templars and the Ordo Hereticus aren't in their best terms with each other.

Although, it isn't surprising, given that Space marines generally have diferent views on just about everything the Imperium has (Emperor's divinity, command structures, etc), I have yet to find anything pointing towards the fact that both the Ordo Hereticus and the Black Templars don't "get along".

Also, somewhere, I have read that they are under investigatin by the Witch Hunters. Why? Why would the Ordo Hereticus persecute a Space Marine army, which is more devoted (or as much devoted) to the Emperor than the Inquisition itself? Of course, there is the matter of the Codex breaches and all, but if someone could explain it all to me... I'd be thankfull.

Spacejens
07-07-2005, 21:31
Well, the Space Marines as a whole tend to view the Emperor as more of a mortal (if extraordinary) man and less of a god than the rest of the Imperial cult does.

The Faith has changed a lot during the last ten millenia. The Space Marines have, for many reasons, changed their beliefs less than the average citizen. This leaves a gap.

(warning: real world religion stuff to follow)

You might want to compare it to the difference in faiths between the Jews and the modern Christians (of which there are many branches). They both worship the same god, but the faith of the Christians has changed a lot from their roots. The faith of the Jews has probably changed as well (although probably a lot less), but in different directions.

In this parallell, the Space Marines are the Jews, while the Ordo Hereticus are the Spanish Inquisition. In other words, they aren't at the best of terms :evilgrin:

Brusilov
08-07-2005, 14:35
Except Spacejens, Jews are not 8 feet tall with power armour and micro-rocket launchers... :rolleyes: (and incidently one should mention Muslims worship the same god as the Jews and Christians).

Personally I have never seen that the Black Templars would be under investigation by the Ordo Hereticus, but this might have nothing to do with religious belief. After all, the BT use the Codex Astartes as toilet paper... They're legion-sized, they don't have either scout squads nor devastator squads (not to mention Librarians), their squads reject the precepts of the Codex... This is not something the Inquisition would look to kindly upon.

But it could be that the form of their worship of the Emperor follows a way that does not sit well with some Inquisitor (after all Inquisitors seem to be sovereign in their decision to investigate someone).
The Inquisition is generally relatively lenient toward divergence in the worship of the Emperor (within certain limits) because Inquisitors know a single way would be impossible to impose within the Imperium.

But frankly, I'd ask you to show me the piece of fluff that implies or says the BT are under investigation. Personally I've never come across any such reference, so I personally doubt they're even under investigation, which closes the subject altogether.

Spacejens
08-07-2005, 15:46
Except Spacejens, Jews are not 8 feet tall with power armour and micro-rocket launchers... :rolleyes:

:eek: My ignorance is showing ;)

As for Black Templars and Ordo Hereticus relations, I have not seen any fluff references to this in particular. However, the inquisition is probably not on the best of terms with anyone else anyway, Space Marine or otherwise.

EDIT: The reason I used modern day Christians as a parallell to the Imperial cult is that both have many branches and splinters, sometimes at odds with each other.

Talkie Toaster
08-07-2005, 19:15
I'd assume if there was conflict it comes from the strength of belief in both camps. Each side fanatically believes in the Emperor, but in wildy differing ways, and god knows (a-ha!) that we've seen enough conflict coming from that base (Catholics vs Protestants for the main part). After all, the Heathens are simply unenlightened, but those OTHER god-worshippers are doing it wrong intentionally!

Slazton
08-07-2005, 20:04
Maybe the Inquisition does not like the idea that they see themsevles on a continuos Crusade, believing that they are continueing the Emperor's Great Crusade. I can see that not sitting well with some Inquisitors.

But this is the first I have heard of Black Templars and Ordo Hereticus not 'sitting well.'

Now if you brought up Dark Angels, Blood Angels or even Space Wolves, then we would have a good and proper dicussion ;)

Brusilov
08-07-2005, 20:47
Well, as far as crusading goes, the Inquisition would not mind too much IMHO, that'd mean the Chapter would always be split, always fighting (which is good) and not spend too much time thinking or getting involved in politics (contrary to the Ultramarines, or strangely enough the Space Wolves, though that might just be because Logan Grimnar is one of the oldest Chapter Masters alive).

Considering the variety of belief within the Inquisition, the Black Templars belief would have to be really bordering on heretical (and thus mentioned in their fluff) for the Inquisition to reach a consensus.
Personally I could argue that some Inquisitor has taken to a dislike of the BT, entirely possible, but for the whole Ordo Hereticus to do thus... I mean BT are fanatical witch haters to the point they don't have Librarians in their ranks, that's always a good point for the most puritan Inquisitors (say monodominants), the BT defended the Imperial Faith from the corruption of Grog Vandire by besieging the Ecclesiarchical Palace during the Age of Apostasy...

Except maybe for the crusading idea, and then it's open for debate, I don't see any reason for the Inquisition to send an investigation on the BT (and an investigation is rather serious, it means the Inquisition has a big hunch that something is not going as it should and that that they're willing to defy the independence of the Chapter). Unless of course some Inquisitor has compared the BT with the Word Bearers...

absolon
09-07-2005, 04:24
this theory comes from some rather old fluff which concerns the founding of the chapter. If I remember correctly after the HH the EC was made Chapter Master of the new Black Templars chapter which was based on a battle barge. Soon after formation the inquisition boarded the barge and burned a number of the brothers including all the librabrians. Soon after that encounter the inquisitor involved had a unfortanate accident

Brusilov
09-07-2005, 20:49
Are you sure? Never heard of that. Would you care to point out at your source? Not that I don't believe you but I find it odd I never came across such reference. The status of the BT as a crusading Chapters is relatively recent, the Armageddon War in fact. IIRC back in 2nd Ed. they were a Codex Chapter.
I'd be interested in seeing that information confirmed (or denied for that matter).

Emperor's Light
09-07-2005, 21:37
Seems like if there is a Space Marine chapter the Hereticus would get along with, it's the Black Templars. They both share a love for burning witches. The only bone of contention I can see would be the chapter's unusual size, and that it has no self-imposed limit on its size.

Ar-Earandur
09-07-2005, 21:55
Seems like if there is a Space Marine chapter the Hereticus would get along with, it's the Black Templars. They both share a love for burning witches. The only bone of contention I can see would be the chapter's unusual size, and that it has no self-imposed limit on its size.

Perhaps the Ordo Hereticus doesn't like the competition :D

Interesting thread this is.

Brusilov
09-07-2005, 22:37
I don't think the Hereticus would mind the competition, after all thanks to their Inquisitorial powers they're still the top dog and when SoBs are not available, it's handy to have people whose faith can be relied upon never to waver in the face of any threat and who hate psykers just as much as the Hereticus does.