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View Full Version : swimming upstream, aka using a well known force differently



TCUTTER
30-11-2006, 19:39
just reading on the boards, the massive hate towards both of my space marine armies, the ultramarines and iron warriors, except i play properly and by the fluff, no 9 obliterators for me, my iws are a real siege/cityfighting force, and my ultras are proper codex loving ultras, so im interseted to know what odditys you collect, do you have shooty greenskins or blood angels, or close combat guard, anything out of the ordinary?

Overlord Krycis
30-11-2006, 19:46
I have 2000pts of shooty Nids, not a single one of them is CC orientated...its fun to be able to outshoot Marines...lol

Railgunner
30-11-2006, 19:47
I have 4 (maybe 5) guard armies..and i don't own a single basilisk:D

Railgunner

DarthBinky
30-11-2006, 20:08
One of my armies is Blood Angels, but I never use or used the "Rhino Rush" tactic.

One of my other armies is IG, and I too own not a single Basilisk.

I also have CSM's with a Defiler, but I have never and will never upgrade it to have indirect fire. Nor do I ever buy Mutated Hull for any of my vehicles- in fact, the only upgrade I ever buy them is Daemonic Possession (which I always buy).

ultima_eldar
30-11-2006, 20:32
full dark angels balanced list with my tactical squads only using bolters no other weapons

Kahadras
30-11-2006, 20:36
One of my armies is Blood Angels, but I never use or used the "Rhino Rush" tactic.


Same here. My old 1,500 point force had a single Rhino in it and tons of foot slogging Tactical marines. It did have a couple of Baal predators but the model just looked too good for me to ignore. :)

Kahadras

AventineCrusader
30-11-2006, 21:18
One of my armies is Blood Angels, but I never use or used the "Rhino Rush" tactic.

Yes, I think it is silly to CC orient a BA force. IMO the most effective build is as a shooting force. Thus you *almost* just as good at shooting as vanilla marines and you are *alot* better in combat. Throw in Chaplain Lemartes with no jumppack/DC and his re-roll blood rage to pass these tests if you really want to abuse it...

In response to the original question, I play Lost and the Damned, nuff' said...

Crusader

Col. Dash
30-11-2006, 21:24
My blood angels has two squads of scouts, one of which is a sniper squad. Both of my tac squads tote lascannons. I have a dreadnought in the army with a big bullseye on either shoulder begging the enemy to shoot him, no its not a taunt as the techmarines and his fellow marines believe, he really wants someone to shoot him.
Oh and no rhinos or razorbacks either. Only vehicles are a Baal and the dreddie.

guillimansknight
30-11-2006, 21:39
just reading on the boards, the massive hate towards both of my space marine armies, the ultramarines and iron warriors, except i play properly and by the fluff, no 9 obliterators for me, my iws are a real siege/cityfighting force, and my ultras are proper codex loving ultras, so im interseted to know what odditys you collect, do you have shooty greenskins or blood angels, or close combat guard, anything out of the ordinary?

3 words


Death from above!

Sarge
30-11-2006, 21:43
Assault Guard with Preists and Pyskers! Oh my, I know, a heretical idea, to bring back some old favorites of the fluff to battle once again! GOD EMPEROER PERSEVE US!!!

Though my favorite force off all time, are my jungle fighting Tau, god I love those Kroot and Flamer/Burstcannon equiped Crisis suits. Nothing says dinner like the squawk of a hundred avian mutants and their mutant hounds from hell.

guillimansknight
30-11-2006, 21:46
Assault Guard with Preists and Pyskers! Oh my, I know, a heretical idea, to bring back some old favorites of the fluff to battle once again! GOD EMPEROER PERSEVE US!!!

heretical???????:confused: :wtf:


how ?

my marines are zealots(big time):D

i only play an army if its flufy

and marines are zealots so you know

kanluwen
30-11-2006, 21:53
Kind of built up my own fluff for my Cadians to justify using Sabre gun platforms and Tarantula sentry guns, just felt right to me for a force that I've said is a force that has excelled at setting field emplacements, overlapping fields of fire, stuff like that.

Partisan Rimmo
30-11-2006, 21:55
I have a bit of a reputation for these things. I use an no tanks, no heavy weapons guard army. It's actually damn good. Eat melta, scum!!!

Sarge
30-11-2006, 21:55
Because most people see the IG as being a static shooty army, not fit to wipe the boots of the more assault oriented armies, mainly SM.

"WE PROVED THEM WRONG, DIDN'T WE PACO?!"

"Si Senior! We showed the Demon what for!"

"PRAISE THE EMPEROR AND THE HOLY VIRGIN!"

Railgunner
30-11-2006, 21:56
:D
3 words


Death from above!

That reminds me..one of my guard armies is Drop Troops with (shock horror) CARAPACE ARMOUR (apparently one of the worst guard doctrines)..and another is Jungle Fighters in red jackets/vests with blue trousers:D

Railgunner

Sarge
30-11-2006, 22:01
Another army of mine, a work in progress really, the WoB is pure HERESY! We have mutants with the stats of SM, of both sexes! *Gasp* I know, it's horrifying isn't it? That an army could actually create a sustainable population of warriors, both men and women, on a large fleet! *More Gasps* Ontop of which, they don't require Geneseed because... cover your ear's brothers... they aren't sterile!!! *Sees some in the front row faint, while others fall upon their swords.* Pure HERESY! I SAY!

Oh, did I mention about my previous army that I actually use Warrior weapons? I know, crazy idea huh? For 2 points I can give a model a lasgun and a ccw, or two ccws, pure lunacy.

Gensuke626
30-11-2006, 22:03
I have a friend that plays tankless guard that's Light/Drop infantry. I get frightened when he gets 2 infiltrating mortar squads, an Infiltrating Lascannon squad and 2 infiltrating Heavy Bolter Squads. Then the rest of his army deep strikes...

lanrak
30-11-2006, 22:11
To be fair.The massive hate you hear,is NOT directed at all SM players.
Just the 'immature gits' that build the 'maxed out armies of doom' and cry and have a hissy fits when they loose.Or think they are clever if they win without having to think about the game.

And as over half of the armies that are fielded on gaming tables are SM of some variety.The games we actualy play are reverting to MEQ or MEQ killer options only.(Sad but true.)

Lots of SM players ,especialy vets,tend to use self imposed restrictions ,so the games they play are more 'ballanced' fun.(I always field 10 man or 5 man squads,because its the IA way...when I am not using my Orks that is.)

I suppose the real issue is 40k is a 'brew and a pizza' kind of fun game.And not developed for 'must win at all costs' type attitude,that some 'gamers ' adopt.

A competative frame of mind is fine for wargames which are designed for ballanced competative play.40k and WH are not.

Now I dont mind playing against any army.As long as the player using it ,displays a bit of maturity and good natured attitude.

Age is no indicator of maturity in my experiance.

The sign on the wall at my local wargames room puts it soo well.
Physical and psychological trauma are the consequences or real warfare.
We are here to enjoy ourselves!!!

Nuff said.
lanrak.

Midknightwraith
30-11-2006, 22:28
Well, one thing I notice is that with the exception of specialist chapters only a few lists have the ability to go against the grain. Even more noticable is the complete lack of Eldar in this thread. Is this because Eldar, like Marines are quite Elite in that their armies can do pretty much anything they need to.

What would be an against the grain Eldar Army? They can do so many different things, and at the same time even. Would a Guardian Assault army be against the Grain enough to qualify. Something like this perhaps.

HQ
Avatar 155

Troops
20 Guardians, BrightLance, Warlock - Conceal 235
20 Guardians, MissleLauncher, Warlock - Conceal 220
20 Guardians, 2x Fusion Guns, Warlock - Enhance, Spear 223
20 Guardians, 2x Flamers, Warlock - Destructor - 205
5 PathFinders 120

Fast Attack
3x Vyper all 2x Shuriken Cannons 180

Heavy Support
3x WarWalkers all 2x Scatter Lasers and Spirit Stones 195

Elites
5x WraithGuard Warlock Conceal Spear 218

Total 1751

MaxORK
30-11-2006, 22:30
Oh your all sooooo modist! Pat yourselves on the back...Wait you've already done that...

cailus
30-11-2006, 23:01
my marines are zealots

Brother, perhaps you have heard of my own Chapter, the mighty Impalers? Our vision is one with our Gene-father, Rogal Dorn - eradicate all that is impure and all that stands in way of the glory of humanity.

There is no mercy for those who traffic with witches, who betray the glory of the Emperor and who place their misguided faith in daemons and xenos over the Saviour of Humanity.

And there are the false servants of the Emperor - those who are bear the mark of the witch yet pretend to be a servant of mankind. These traitors are to be impaled alive upon great spikes that line the Imperium roads as a reminder of what happens to those who abandon the path of the righteous.

cailus
30-11-2006, 23:04
Oh and as to oddities.

I use an 8 man Devastator squad in a very flexible role. They have 3 heavy weapons and so are just as likely to be lurching forward and gunning down infantry with heavy bolters as they are using lascannon and missile launchers against tanks.

Skyth
30-11-2006, 23:08
just reading on the boards, the massive hate towards both of my space marine armies, the ultramarines and iron warriors, except i play properly and by the fluff, no 9 obliterators for me,

Sorry, but not having multiple oblit squads doesn't fit the fluff for a proper Iron Warriors army.

cailus
30-11-2006, 23:17
The fluff is that they're a predominatly siege army who might be responsible for the Obliterator techno-virus.

However not having 9 Oblits is fluffy if you emphasise the siege elements of the army e.g. Dreads equipped with siege hammers, units equipped with frag and krak grenades, flamers, meltaguns and ordnance.

Skyth
30-11-2006, 23:43
That's an assault army. Siege army sits back and pounds from long range(IE indirect ordnance, many heavy weapons, etc).

Gensuke626
30-11-2006, 23:48
Skyth...there are two parts to a seige...I don't know technical terms or anything, but I refer to the two parts as bleeding and crushing.

Bleeding is the part where you sit at the gates and prevent supplies from getting in. and soldiers from getting out.

Crushing is where you blast open a hole in the wall and slaughter the weakened foes.

The items that cailus brings up would be good seige gear since the ordnance allows the army to bombard the city, the dreads and guys with meltas crack the gates and form a Forlorn Hope, and the guys with flamers go in after them to mop up. It's thwe whole seige mentality in one package.

Althanan
30-11-2006, 23:57
Oh your all sooooo modist! Pat yourselves on the back...Wait you've already done that...

The word is "modest". If you're going to needlessly insult people, at least use freaking spellcheck...

cailus
01-12-2006, 00:01
Gensuke626 hits the nail on the head.

Other units that might fit into the siege mentality are teleporting Termies who teleport in at critical defensive locations and wipe out enemy units.

Infiltrating units with charges also fit this mentality - you could view them as coming up from a mine or infiltrating at night.

An interesting relatively modern siege was the Siege of Port Arthur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Port_Arthur). I think this is the approach that the Iron Warriors would follow - basically trying to take land in a slow advance supported by heavy artillery and engineering projects.

I don't think that the Iron Warriors would indulge in sieges where the purpose is merely to cut off a vital yet unconquearble installation. In this case they would sit from affair and simply shell the target and blockade supplies. Siege of Sarajevo in the Bosnian War is an example of this. The Serbs had neither the military nor the political power to take over Sarajevo hence they just blocked th city off and shelled it (Bleeding).

I doubt the Iron Warriors would go for such a compromise situation. They are Chaos Marines and would want to thoroughly defeat the enemy.

Maguni
01-12-2006, 00:11
Speaking of assaulty guard, how would a unit of 50 conscripts and a priest and comissar fare?

MaxORK
01-12-2006, 00:26
The word is "modest". If you're going to needlessly insult people, at least use freaking spellcheck...

That's 'the' freaking spellcheck!

Vitautas
01-12-2006, 00:39
Speaking of assaulty guard, how would a unit of 50 conscripts and a priest and comissar fare?

Ya im interested in doing something along these lines. Lets hear some replies!

MaxORK
01-12-2006, 00:47
I don't think they would do very well, low strength low weapon skill and easily killed. most ellite CC squads will rip them a new one! Kill the Commisar and watch them flee!

Guard IMO are a very static army, trying to make them CC is gona be a very hard task?
I am interested as well mind!

Sarge
01-12-2006, 00:49
Ya im interested in doing something along these lines. Lets hear some replies!

Given you can't put advisors in with conscripts, and making a commissar an IC for the purpose of putting him in a conscript unit, just isn't worth it, I'd say think of another way to bolster the ranks of your charge.

@MaxOrk: That's what Powerfists are for, because the truth is, more SM die in CC than die in the charge, especially when the enemy have to charge through cover to reach you.

505
01-12-2006, 03:20
I use 3 razerbacks

FraustyTheSnowman
01-12-2006, 03:44
Working on an assault/siege guard army. Hardened Fighters, Chem Inhailers, Cyber Enhancement, Carapace Armor are the doctrins so far, with a possible Mechanized or Grenadiers. Storm bolters and bionics for just about everyone who can get wargear, and lots of shotguns and powerweapons to go arround as well. Going to use the Krieg models. Background is a force who escaped the destruction of their planet (not sure who destroyed it yet, but I'm leaning toward Dark Eldar) and are all broken up physically). Everyone has enough replacement parts to warent the bionics, cyber enhancement and carapace armor. Chem Inhailers represents the fact that they don't have much to live for beyond fighting and killing. Their trained in city fighting the way Catachans are trained to opperate in the jungle, and so are used to very short range and close combat encounters.

I doubt they'll work worth a crap considering how much they are points wise, but I think it'll be fun to play. Never been one to worry about who won the game.

Sarge
01-12-2006, 04:52
Chem inhalers is a nice way to save doctrine space, but nothing else, and is quite difficult to replicate onto the models, so are cybernetics and caraprace armor, all of which raise the cost of the models $ wise, as well as points wise, taking away from the numbers you'll need to be effective.

If you want an elitish assault IG army built around the Death Korps of Kreig, I'd take Grenadiers, Storm Troopers, Mechanized/Conscripts, Chem-inhalers, and Rough Riders, don't waist your points building up individual units that will die in the end, rather take more assault units and give them enough power/assault weapons and frags to make the enemy regret assaulting you, or standing their ground.

As I always say, frags are an Assault Gaurdsmen's best freind. Luckly for you Storm Troopers and Grenadiers already have them, and can be mechanized/deepstrike/infilitrate, depending on your needs and available points.

Sekhmet
01-12-2006, 04:52
I use a Necron army without Rez Orbs, with 20 warriors, and no Monolith.

Vaktathi
01-12-2006, 05:01
Didn't Paco get some...negative attention from the Commissars during a Perils of the Warp attack?

Sarge
01-12-2006, 05:17
Yes... but the Commissar was later executed for having slain a living saint, even in the name of the Emperor. Saint Paco, as he would later be cannonized, was added to the banners that were flown by the proud standard bearers. But that battle was won none the less thanks to his sacrifice, if it had not been for him taking down that demon, I never would have stood a chance, nope, not even with an Eviserator or Power Fist on my side. PRAISE SAINT PACO! THE LIVING WILL OF THE EMPEROR!

Vaktathi
01-12-2006, 05:24
lol :D

I like the mexican themed IG army btw.

RagingHobo
01-12-2006, 11:15
Given you can't put advisors in with conscripts, and making a commissar an IC for the purpose of putting him in a conscript unit, just isn't worth it, I'd say think of another way to bolster the ranks of your charge.


No way!, Independant comissars with a 20-50 wound tarpit are the best thing in the IG army for holding up assault troops. I use mine as the spear tip just ahead of my infantry squads that cover my heavy weapons. Units literally break like a wave against a cliff on them and next turn i bring my squads and command squads forward to assist and the enemy is overwhelmed by a ridiculous amount of attack and can not keep up with the numbers i throw at them.

ashc
01-12-2006, 11:49
Im about to do an inquisitorial force with allied guard; no GKs, no SOBs, and vanilla-flavoured inquisitorial things to represent the ordos xenos.

and a combat inquisitorial retinue; im gonna die but hey its gonna look cool!

Ash

jfrazell
01-12-2006, 12:51
For a bit I played a chaos force with a chaos lord, oblits and demons-lots of demons. he was the only thing starting on the board-kill him in turn 1 and you win the game. If not lots of bad guys started appearing.

Fun for larks but not the most effective.

guillimansknight
01-12-2006, 14:37
Brother, perhaps you have heard of my own Chapter, the mighty Impalers? Our vision is one with our Gene-father, Rogal Dorn - eradicate all that is impure and all that stands in way of the glory of humanity.

There is no mercy for those who traffic with witches, who betray the glory of the Emperor and who place their misguided faith in daemons and xenos over the Saviour of Humanity.

And there are the false servants of the Emperor - those who are bear the mark of the witch yet pretend to be a servant of mankind. These traitors are to be impaled alive upon great spikes that line the Imperium roads as a reminder of what happens to those who abandon the path of the righteous.


Thought For The Day
Zeal Is Its Own Excuse

May the Emperor and Dorn bless you brother

Maquisapa
01-12-2006, 15:09
My Ulthwe army (from the last edition... My wife is expecting our first child any day now, so I can't yet afford the new Eldar codex or any of the tasty new models to upgrade/update my army) was a bit radical from most Eldar armies for the store I used to play at in New York. The tournament version of my army included no elites at all. Instead, I kept a moderate seer council, many guardians (of both types), and loaded up on unusual (for my store anyway) heavy choices, like a falcon, D-cannons, and war-walkers.

My typical 2000 point SoB army also includes no elites (though I have painted three squads of them, just to use someday when the mood strikes me), either.

Not as radical as others that have posted on this board, but you guys have inspired me to do something slightly different in my next army? Perhaps a Deathwing army with no terminators? (joking).

orangesm
01-12-2006, 16:30
My DH army is unplayable at a Tourney - two Valkyries does that.

The army is 2 Stormtrooper squads w/ Valkyries escorting an Inquistor and a Grey Knight strike force with a Grand Master w/ Bodyguard and two Strike Teams.

Nothing starts on the table.

Should build a campaign centered around using the army.. could be alot of fun.

Rhinos for Devastator squads? every unit in my Ultramarines that can be mounted is mounted.

luchog
01-12-2006, 21:26
Even more noticable is the complete lack of Eldar in this thread. Is this because Eldar, like Marines are quite Elite in that their armies can do pretty much anything they need to.

What would be an against the grain Eldar Army? They can do so many different things, and at the same time even. Would a Guardian Assault army be against the Grain enough to qualify. Something like this perhaps.

Unlike Marines, which tend toward minor variations of a single type for most players -- min/max asscannon of doom -- there really isn't a "grain" for Eldar. Even the 3rd ed. Overpowered Tournament Army(tm) had multiple variations in either shooting- or cc-oriented -- Wraithlord/Wraithguard from hell (combo shooty/assaulty), Starcannon Army of Doom (shooty), and Seer Council of Doom (assaulty). Non-tourney Eldar tend to be even more varied. The old Craftworld-specific lists encourged a great deal of variation that Marines and Guard typically didn't have, thoug the latter more than the former.

The Eldar are probably the most flexible and customizable force in the game. Marines and Guard come close, but Marines especially are fairly limited by being composed almost exclusively of generic all-'rounders with amost no true specialists. The biggest variation in SM is pretty much ground-pounders (walking/transport) vs. flying (landspeeder-heavy) vs. massive deep striking (lots of drop pods). Imperial Guard variation is typically in their vehicles and heavy support. It's interesting to see people go beyond the common types and do something unique, or at least uncommon, with SM and IG.



Would a Guardian Assault army be against the Grain enough to qualify. Something like this perhaps.

Eldar don't really do well as a horde army, Guardians are too fragile. Anything that throws lots of pie plates is going to stomp all over them, and drop-pod SM, particularly Termies, will chew them up with barely a scratch. One turn of rapid fire by a 10-man vanilla marine squad will kill nearly half the unit, on average, while being well outside the range for shuricats.

Kirth
02-12-2006, 00:12
I have a guard army that doesn't have a single heavy weapon.

Nebėhr Gudahtt
02-12-2006, 00:20
I play footslogging Eldar. Great against some armies, horribly lacking against others.

Light of the Emperor
02-12-2006, 03:26
My Daemonhunters army has no grey knights and no allies. 6 squads of 10 stormtroopers...all mounted in vehicles and 4 inquisitors. Fluff wise, its an Inquisitor Cell with backup from a reknowned inquisitorial stormtrooper regiment. My opponents never expect this type of force. They always wait for grey knights to show up.
Of course, playing this force handicaps me a bit and I tend to lose a lot of games (no heavy weapons whatsoever for poor stormtroopers). But, I always have a good game and my opponent enjoys it as well. Why? Because its an army he probably hasn't played against before. It makes the game more fun and unpredictable.

Easy E
02-12-2006, 11:08
A Feral Ork army based on shooting...No Madboyz or Boarboyz.