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BrotherErekose
04-12-2006, 04:50
First: Let's try to avoid violating GW's Intellectual Property by not posting points too directly.
:)

Otherwise:

What is the least expensive 'scoring unit' in 40k?

SM Speeder comes close. Let's go from here, and we'll call it the number 'SMS'.
4 Tau Gun Drones come in 2 points less, (SMS -2)
Gretchin + Slaver comes in at SMS -11
A single Ravener with minimum bios comes in at SMS - 8.

The snotlings plus keeper seem to be it, unless....

I have codexes for Orks, bugs, SM, CSM, Eldar and Tau, so if there's something in WH or DE...?

-Brother Erekose

Baneboss
04-12-2006, 05:15
All that comes to my mind is 5 man renmants squad for 30 points.

sephiroth87
04-12-2006, 05:17
I think you can get 3 ratling snipers for 33 points. That's pretty cheap and it's a scoring unit.

Also, one zzap gun with 2 gretchin is 30 points. Same for a gretchin troop squad, I think.

UreeL
04-12-2006, 06:46
elite inquisitor with familiar is something like 26 points

primarch16
04-12-2006, 07:46
Codex Catachans wins. You can have a single heavy bolter team for like 15-20 points. Not too mention the assault teams full of meltaguns and demolition charges. But these are a little more expensive.

John Vaughan
04-12-2006, 14:48
I wonder if the Librarian familiar could count as a scoring unit. I think it does. Its only 10 pts.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
04-12-2006, 15:06
I wonder if the Librarian familiar could count as a scoring unit. I think it does. Its only 10 pts.
the Inquisition's version is cheaper. :p

can anything beat 6 points? :D

~ Tim

Cill
04-12-2006, 15:15
Just the cheapest scoring unit in the game.
Or the cheapest scoring unit that is of any use to you whatsoever?

gitburna
04-12-2006, 15:24
warwalker with 2 shuriken cannons is cheapest for eldar i believe., no sorry, its a shadowweaver platform.

For orks i think something like either a Kan, a lobba, an unarmed Trak, something like that.

Guard would be ratlings or a remnant squad.

Not too sure about anything else.

Rlyehable
04-12-2006, 15:48
I wonder if the Librarian familiar could count as a scoring unit. I think it does. Its only 10 pts.


the Inquisition's version is cheaper. :p

can anything beat 6 points? :D

I think the idea was is the cheapest scoring unit you can purchase.
You can't purchase a familiar without the Librarian or Inquisitor.
So, once you add the cost of the Librarian or Inquisitor, I doubt that they are the cheapest scoring unit.

Bloodknight
04-12-2006, 17:33
Dark Eldar can take 3 Grotesques for 45 points.

BrotherErekose
04-12-2006, 19:30
Since some folks aren't clear:
:)

1. Counts as 'scoring', that is, can hold objectives. Thus, not independent characters.
2. The least expensive in points cost, that will stand by itself, no upgrades

Familiars can't show up without libs and that makes them 100+, AND librarians don't count as scoring.

So far, the Catachan heavy wep team at 16 to 20 points? Has primarch16 nailed it?

And I asked for only a little algebra off of the Speeder's points cost.
:)

-Brother Erekose

Slaaneshi Slave
04-12-2006, 19:33
20 Points for a Witch Hunter, may have to add a 6 point Familiar to make it an actual unit.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
04-12-2006, 20:01
Familiars can't show up without libs and that makes them 100+, AND librarians don't count as scoring.
yeah but IG "Remnants" (for example) cant turn up without 2 Infantry Squads and 2 Command Squads. dont know how C:Catachans works, but in C:IG you cant take anything (barring some Special Chars) without at least taking a Command Squad first.

i think the Familiar counts: it is a Scoring Unit of 1 model in its own right with a cost of 6 points (and it gives away 6 VPs in its own right too) - it doesnt need the Inquisitor in order for it to Score, just in order for it to be bought in the first place (like lots of units, really, as their armies have 1+ choices, or units that must be bought to unlock others, etc).

then again, it is your thread. :p ;)

~ Tim
p.s. and the points thing... as we are talking about whole units here, not individual parts of units/individual costs, we should be able to give points values (at least we could under the GW Forum Rules - and i cant imagine anywhere being stricter than that :rolleyes:)

Onisuzume
04-12-2006, 20:02
A tyranid ripper swarm; 30 points. :P

xibo
04-12-2006, 21:11
10 Chaos Cultists. 30P.

devolutionary
04-12-2006, 21:18
Yeah, Nids are pushing for the win on this one. Between rippers and cheap gaunts they can really push down those costs.

AventineCrusader
04-12-2006, 22:13
I am pretty sure the Inquisitor plus familiar at 26 pts has got it.(Eveyone knows Codex Catachan doesn't count for anything)

Crusader

Lord Malek The Red Knight
04-12-2006, 22:17
I am pretty sure the Inquisitor plus familiar at 26 pts has got it.(Eveyone knows Codex Catachan doesn't count for anything)
but thats 6 pts, right, as the Inq is an IC and therefore (a) non-Scoring and (b) considered separately (p86, units with distinct elements).

its only the Familiar that Scores. ;)

~ Tim

ZigZagMan
04-12-2006, 22:20
Single last chancer in a sub unit 11 pts

Lord Malek The Red Knight
04-12-2006, 22:24
Single last chancer in a sub unit 11 pts
either:
- that is beaten by the Familiar
or
- you would need to include the cost of Kage, Schaeffer and 3 other Last Chancers (just as we would have to include the Inq. cost for the Familiar).

either way, the Last Chancer isnt gonna win. :p

~ Tim

Mordu22
04-12-2006, 22:33
Deathwing 0pts!!

Sekhmet
04-12-2006, 22:35
but thats 6 pts, right, as the Inq is an IC and therefore (a) non-Scoring and (b) considered separately (p86, units with distinct elements).

its only the Familiar that Scores. ;)

~ Tim

The Inq loses IC status when he has a retinue, thus it is scoring and not separate except in close combat.

The cheapest Necrons can pull off is a 41 pt wraith.

Maynard
04-12-2006, 22:55
either:
- that is beaten by the Familiar
or
- you would need to include the cost of Kage, Schaeffer and 3 other Last Chancers (just as we would have to include the Inq. cost for the Familiar).

either way, the Last Chancer isnt gonna win. :p

~ Tim


the last chancer is a sub unit in a specific type of guard army whereas the Inq HAS to purchase something to become scoring.

Also someone mentioned cultists but I think they got the points wrong, they're 6 per model.

I'd say the Last chancer has it folks!

Lord Malek The Red Knight
04-12-2006, 22:57
The Inq loses IC status when he has a retinue, thus it is scoring and not separate except in close combat.
i referenced p86 for a reason, mind. ;)


The cheapest Necrons can pull off is a 41 pt wraith.
whats wrong with 36 pts of Scarabs? EDIT: oh yeah, they cant Score... :o


the last chancer is a sub unit in a specific type of guard army whereas the Inq HAS to purchase something to become scoring.
the Inq doesnt "become Scoring", he's an IC - its the Familiar alone that is the Scoring Unit (p85-86 of the rulebook).


I'd say the Last chancer has it folks!
you have to first spend 143 pts before you can buy that 11 pt Last Chancer - how does that beat a 6 pt Familiar bought after only spending 20 pts on an Inquisitor? :confused:

whichever way you add that up (based on total cost to field the unit, or the value of the Scoring Unit itself) the Familiar beats the Chancer hands down. :confused:

~ Tim

Master Jeridian
04-12-2006, 23:18
Ripper Swarms are non-scoring.

Are Henchmen Retinue's scoring units?

Familiar- scoring unit- that's a bit silly.

Gen_eV
04-12-2006, 23:20
you have to first spend 143 pts before you can buy that 11 pt Last Chancer - how does that beat a 6 pt Familiar bought after only spending 20 pts on an Inquisitor? :confused:

Ah, but the LastChancer acts as a totally autonomous unit whilst within the game, whereas the Familiar is trapped with retinue status.

You can always take 'just one more' sub-unit if you're taking the Last Chancers anyway (provided you haven't already maxed-out on 'em), whereas the Familiar is only available as a 1:1 ratio with Inquisitors. I suppose that could be used as a reason.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
04-12-2006, 23:23
Are Henchmen Retinue's scoring units?

Familiar- scoring unit- that's a bit silly.
a Retinue is a Retinue, whether its a squad of Space Marines or a flaoting skull. :D

actually, i think i may even be able to beat the Familiar (well, depending on how you measure it):

IG Command Squad - the Squad itself (the basic Guardsmen) is a Scoring Unit that is worth/costs ZERO points (the only give away VPs if you buy them stuff, and you only pay for the Officer (IC) in a basic squad). like i said, depends on how you count it though, as although the Scoring part is worth 0 pts, you still have to spend 40pts to get them. :p

~ Tim

Sekhmet
04-12-2006, 23:32
a Retinue is a Retinue, whether its a squad of Space Marines or a flaoting skull. :D

actually, i think i may even be able to beat the Familiar (well, depending on how you measure it):

IG Command Squad - the Squad itself (the basic Guardsmen) is a Scoring Unit that is worth/costs ZERO points (the only give away VPs if you buy them stuff, and you only pay for the Officer (IC) in a basic squad). like i said, depends on how you count it though, as although the Scoring part is worth 0 pts, you still have to spend 40pts to get them. :p

~ Tim

Then again, the 40 pts specifically includes the cost of the squad. Otherwise you could say the same thing about a Blood Angels Death Company... DC is free (actually listed as such, not merely "included"), the chaplain is 200 something pts.

But the point is you have to buy the entire unit at a time. So while inq + familiar is probably the cheapest, it's 26 pts, not 6.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
04-12-2006, 23:34
You can always take 'just one more' sub-unit if you're taking the Last Chancers anyway (provided you haven't already maxed-out on 'em), whereas the Familiar is only available as a 1:1 ratio with Inquisitors. I suppose that could be used as a reason.
OK, for the sake of argument, lets look at it like that:

you get a max of 5 x 11 pt single Chancer Scoring Units after first spending 110 pts on the ICs that make up the rest of the squad.
or, you could say that works out at 33 pts per Scoring Unit.

the Inquisition can only field 3 Familiars as individual Scoring units (as HQ Inqs have a min of 3 models in their Retinue, leaving this task up to the Elite Inqs). that said, they get 3 x 6 pt single Familiar Scoring units after spending only 60 pts on the Inquisitors, which is only 26 pts per Scoring Unit. :D

they may be losing out on quantity, but that isnt what this game is about - they are still winning on points cost (both individully and cost to field). so :p

;)

~ Tim
EDIT:
1. Counts as 'scoring', that is, can hold objectives. Thus, not independent characters.
2. The least expensive in points cost, that will stand by itself, no upgrades

Familiars can't show up without libs and that makes them 100+, AND librarians don't count as scoring.
i think we need further clarification from the OP as to exactly what qualifies and how we count the cost.
- is the Familiar out because its fielded along with an IC, so doesnt "stand by itself"? or does the fact that it continues to fight after the death of the IC make it valid for this purpose?
- how about the lone Chancer or "Remnants" Squad - they both stand alone as individual Scoring Units that arent joined to anything else, but are bought as part of a bigger package, so how do we count the cost (same goes for the Familiar, if it qualifies)?
- and what about armies with +1 choices (IG Command Squads etc) - should they be included when working out the cost of the Scoring unit, even if they do not directly "unlock" that unit (and are instead a minimum requirment of fielding any unit from that army)?
- does the army that the unit come from need to be legal (not sure if this would make a difference, but worth checking), and if so, should we assume Standard FOC?

aslong as the Familiar qualifies, it weights in at either 26 points (total cost to field) or 6 pts (total VP value/cost of the Scoring Unit). IG (HQ) Command Squads are either 40 pts (total cost to field) or 0 pts (total VP value/cost of the Scoring Unit) - but again, they are joined to a non-Scoring IC (included in the cost to field), so do they qualify...?

Gen_eV
05-12-2006, 00:03
They may be losing out on quantity, but that isnt what this game is about - they are still winning on points cost (both individully and cost to field). so :p

Yeah, I spotted that as I was typing. But still, I stand by the factthat they're the cheapest autonomous scoring units - you can send those 11pts off to secure a table quarter all on their lonesome, but you can't do that with a familiar, who has to drag an Inquisitor along. ;)

Morgrad
05-12-2006, 00:07
The lowest 'nids can go is 38 points for a scoring unit, so they're out.

Of course, they can bring 9 scoring units for 354 points, which is pretty stinkin' low for the volume.

Within one FoC, Tyranids can do 17 scoring units for 906 points.

I'm sure, as with anything that comes down to sheer number of units, that guard can blow them away in that regard.

Gen_eV
05-12-2006, 00:43
Within one foc?
Sixty-six scoring units for the guard, which as you rightly say, blows everything else out of the watr. I think the closest rival is a fully-raidered Deathwing force, with thirty-four scoring units from one FoC.

Sekhmet
05-12-2006, 01:30
I think the closest rival is a fully-raidered Deathwing force, with thirty-four scoring units from one FoC.

how is that possible?

Warlord Kyle
05-12-2006, 01:36
1 squad of spinegaunts 45pts
1 squad rippers 15pts less
NIDS FOR THE WIN:D

BrotherErekose
05-12-2006, 02:06
1 squad of spinegaunts 45pts
1 squad rippers 15pts less
NIDS FOR THE WIN:D

No. Didja do the math?

Speeders (which can hold objectives) are the same cost as rhinos (which cannot hold objectives).

10 gretchin plus Slaver (minimum size) is 11 points less than that.

Rippers can't hold objectives.

Oy. This is has totally run away from my original Q. Ah, well.

:p

-Brother Erekose

BrotherErekose
05-12-2006, 02:12
how is that possible?

I dunno how the thread got here, but, each and every Termie squad can have a transport, that is a Land Raider. There are 17 possible units in the FoC.

2 HQs
3 each of Elite, FA, & HS.
6 Troops

That's 17. Then give each one a LR.

If each of the Termie crews has a LR with them, then you've doubled the number of scoring units, i.e. 34.

That's over 8k worth in points though.

-Brother Erekose

MarksmanCypher
05-12-2006, 02:14
On the other hand...

20 x Chosen, mark of Tzeentch, Terminator Armour, Aspiring Champion, Pair of Lightning Claws, bolt of Change, Familiar, Mass Mutation, Warp Focus, 75 pts of daemonic gifts/wargear... 4620 points. As a side note, I don't think this can be beaten since the infinite warlocks are now no longer available...

So I can give you the most EXPENSIVE. Cheapest? I would agree that it's the familiar retinue.

ZigZagMan
05-12-2006, 02:26
Blood angels death company,0pts, sort of.
Back to the last chancer though he is a Unit by himself reguardless of what you have to buy to get him ( technically you have to buy a HQ and 2 troops to buy ANY unit that isn't one of the above) and that is what was asked for.
If a squad includes a model that costs points then, of course, that models pts go towards the total. A Familiar MUST have an Inquisitor IN HIS SQUAD, so the Inquisitor costs toward the total. The officer MUST be in the squad with his command squad so HE COUNTS.
Unless I totally misread what the guy who asked the question said, the single cheapest independant scoring unit is a single last chancer AFAIK.

A Familiar CAN be a scoring unit all by himself, but the inquisitor that came with him has to have been killed off for it to happen, meaning you had to field the inquisitor and the familiar TOGETHER, in one squad. I.e one scoring unit.

Sincity
05-12-2006, 06:15
No , a familiar can never be a scoring unit by itself .... the inquisitor (as you noted ) will be dead thereby reducing the unit to under 1/2 strength.

Now TWO familiars , thats a whole other story.

Sincity

SON OF LION
05-12-2006, 06:27
Actually a two model unit reduced to one model is at half strenght, not below and is therefore still a scoring unit. I know, because I run around with 2 wraiths and you have to kill both to get any victory points.

Maybe this thread would be more interesting seeing what is the cheapest scoring unit from each army. And considering the title, there are quite a few people who don't read it and keep shouting ripper swarm or some such non-scoring unit. Still, this ain't my thread.

Sincity
05-12-2006, 06:34
No , pg 85 of the rules states that you count wounds to see if a unit is below 50%.

Its the little details that get you every time.

Sincity

Shockwave
05-12-2006, 06:45
No , pg 85 of the rules states that you count wounds to see if a unit is below 50%.

Its the little details that get you every time.

Sincity

Ah, thee old "Models for Morale, Wounds for VP's"


Anyway back on topic.
Not that it's going to take the title, but the cheapest Tau scoring unit is 34pts not 48 as mentioned.

Onisuzume
05-12-2006, 08:01
A tyranid ripper swarm; 30 points. :P


Yeah, Nids are pushing for the win on this one. Between rippers and cheap gaunts they can really push down those costs.

Darn, forgot to check and now I did; Rippers don't count as scoring units. (Mindless >_>)
That makes me having to say Raveners, 1 model for 38 points.

Master Jeridian
05-12-2006, 08:07
On the Familiar/ Inquisitor unit.

For VP's- Independent Characters and their Retinues are treated separately.
So that one Familiar is a a scoring unit.

Kirth
05-12-2006, 09:08
Familiar doesn't work as when the Inquisitor is dead, the familiar is removed along with him. Page 14 Deamonhunters Rulebook.

newpaintbrush
05-12-2006, 10:17
1. I don't think you have to have a slaver with your grots. I could be wrong.

2. Last chancer wins.

3. Familiars can't hold objectives and stuff by themselves. Items taken as wargear are essentially inseparable from the inquisitor or librarian they're with.

Master Jeridian
05-12-2006, 11:03
True that the Librarian Familiar is taken as Wargear.

However, the Inquisitor Henchmen are taken as a Retinue, are not in the Wargear section, are mentioned in a Retinue box under the Inquisitor Lord choice (which can be used by Inquisitors) along with transport options.

Under those circumstances, if an Inquisitor Retinue is not a scoring unit, then neither is a SM Command Squad, etc as they have the exact same wording.

So, at 28pts for an Inquisitor with Bolt pistol, chainsword with a Retinue of 1 Familiar- that is a cheap scoring unit.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
05-12-2006, 11:59
Familiar doesn't work as when the Inquisitor is dead, the familiar is removed along with him. Page 14 Deamonhunters Rulebook.
dang, i missed that (p16 C:WH, FYI) - cheers for pointing it out! :)

even if that does disqualify the Familiar (does it?) there are other Henchmen that dont have that rule and cost less than the lone Last Chancer (a single Penitent would be a Scoring Unit that costs 7 pts/gives away 7 VPs, doesnt rely on the Inq to survive or to Score). its total cost to field is far cheaper than the Chancer (27 vs 143), even when you allow the IG player to buy multiples and divide the cost (27 vs 33). :p

oh and can everyone (not mentioning names) make sure they have read p86? the VP rules dont stop on p85... :rolleyes:

~ Tim
@ Brother Erekose: how about those questions i posted? :)

Feor
05-12-2006, 15:05
Single Chaos Chosen only costs 17 pts, and is not considered an Independant Character, I believe. Hmm, wonder if he'd have to make last man standing tests every turn if deployed by himself...

whoops, nevermind, I missed the 5-20 limit buried in the rules for them.

primarch16
05-12-2006, 19:01
Codex Catachans wins. You can have a single heavy bolter team for like 15-20 points. Not too mention the assault teams full of meltaguns and demolition charges. But these are a little more expensive.

This is the cheapest scoring unit in the game. End the thread. I win :D.

Fear is the mind killer
05-12-2006, 22:22
Arbites cost 8pts each and can come in squads of 5, and as long as they're at least at half strength they count as a scoring unit, so they're a strong contender costing 24pts.

onnotangu
05-12-2006, 22:37
biovore is pretty cheap.

MarksmanCypher
05-12-2006, 22:40
biovore is pretty cheap.

Biovore is also living artillery and thus not scoring.

BrotherErekose
06-12-2006, 02:29
This is the cheapest scoring unit in the game. End the thread. I win :D.

I do believe you're right, primarch16. The Catachan heavy bolter team at 16 or so, yes? I don't have that codex.

I'd lke to take Son of Lion's advice and list them for every army. Just for fun.
--------------------------------------
Thus,

1. The Space Marines army has the basic Speeder.

2. An incredibly lame Monat can be taken for Tau at 32 points, Drone Controler, Blacksun Filter and flamer. A more feasible suit could come in at 37 with a BC, Flamer & Drone Cntlr.

Orks: A two grot Zzap gun crew clocks in at 30, thanks sephiroth87.

Bugs: Ravener at Speeder minus 12, again, not the Ripper swarm which cannot hold an objective.
:)

Chaos: Tie between an oblit and a min sized Chaos SM troop, yes? Although, poster 'xibo' entered this: 10 Chaos Cultists. 30P. Izzat in the Eye of Terror?

Necrons: Sekhmet gives us is a 41 pt wraith.

Poster "Fear is the mind killer" what is an arbite?


DE. Bloodnight says "take 3 Grotesques for 45 points" - sound good?

SoB?
WH?

Eldar: 'gitburna' you mentioned a 'shadow weaver' platform, but that's a couple points over a minimum squad of Guardians, 40 points.


Did I miss any race/army? And let's leave the familiars out!
;)

-Brother Erekose

MarksmanCypher
06-12-2006, 02:45
1. The Space Marines army has the basic Speeder.

Sounds about right.


2. An incredibly lame Monat can be taken for Tau at 32 points, Drone Controler, Blacksun Filter and flamer. A more feasible suit could come in at 37 with a BC, Flamer & Drone Cntlr.

All Tau are incredibly lame :D


Orks: A two grot Zzap gun crew clocks in at 30, thanks sephiroth87.

That too sounds about right.


Bugs: Ravener at Speeder minus 12, again, not the Ripper swarm which cannot hold an objective.
:)

Yep, just had a look, and that's right.


Chaos: Tie between an oblit and a min sized Chaos SM troop, yes? Although, poster 'xibo' entered this: 10 Chaos Cultists. 30P. Izzat in the Eye of Terror?

Yes, Cultists are in the Lost and the Damned army list. Outside the lost and the damned army list, though... Well, you might want to look at Alpha Legion cultists - you can get 10 of them for 60 points, making them the cheapest scoring unit. Worth noting is the cheapest Daemon unit that's scoring, which is 5 Daemonettes totalling 75 points, and is possibly the most effective of the cheap units when it comes to close combat and destroying Wraithlords :D


Necrons: Sekhmet gives us is a 41 pt wraith.

Again, sounds OK.


DE. Bloodnight says "take 3 Grotesques for 45 points" - sound good?

I thought grotesques couldn't claim table quarters or objectives? If that's the case, wouldn't it just be your basic Warriors?


SoB?
WH?

I'd say storm troopers... but I could be wrong. 80 points for 10 of them... is the Immolator less points than that?


Eldar: 'gitburna' you mentioned a 'shadow weaver' platform, but that's a couple points over a minimum squad of Guardians, 40 points.

Actually, the Shadow Weaver is right. 10 Guardians is the minimum size, making them minimum 80 points, PLUS platform. The Shadow weaver is only 30 points.

Sekhmet
06-12-2006, 03:30
I'd say storm troopers... but I could be wrong. 80 points for 10 of them... is the Immolator less points tha

50 pts for 5

Shockwave
06-12-2006, 05:23
2. An incredibly lame Monat can be taken for Tau at 32 points, Drone Controler, Blacksun Filter and flamer. A more feasible suit could come in at 37 with a BC, Flamer & Drone Cntlr.
-Brother Erekose

Neither of which are legal as you can't have a drone controller without also paying for some drones.

The cheapest, granted it is still lame (or is it? ;) ), is the one i mentioned earlier at 34 points

Twin Flamer plus a Blacksun filter.

Ouroboros
06-12-2006, 05:58
Does a Cyclops demo vehicle count as a scoring unit? It is a vehicle so it might have slipped through the cracks in 4th ed. It's 20 points.

AventineCrusader
06-12-2006, 06:22
SoB?
WH?

Did I miss any race/army? And let's leave the familiars out!
;)

-Brother Erekose

You can leave the familiars out, but a single Elite Inquisitor with one retinue member, lets say a warrior, is still the cheapest WH/DH scoring unit at 30 points.

Crusader

Fear is the mind killer
06-12-2006, 14:13
Arbites are the adeptus arbites who had a 3rd ed. codex in the citadel journal. It's debatable whether or not the list is still legal as the ork codex is still from the 3rd ed. print run and that's okay but the arbites codex never got past the original way of equipping characters that was used in the back of the 3rd ed. rulebook.

BrotherErekose
06-12-2006, 18:55
Neither of which are legal as you can't have a drone controller without also paying for some drones.

The cheapest, granted it is still lame (or is it? ;) ), is the one i mentioned earlier at 34 points

Twin Flamer plus a Blacksun filter.

Ah, legalities.
:)

-Brother Erekose

ZigZagMan
07-12-2006, 02:24
Why doesn't the last chancer count?
He can be fielded in a seperate squad regardless of what is required to buy him.

fwacho
07-12-2006, 07:30
IG... Sentinal with heavy flamer... 30 or 35 I think

The cheapest troop choice eldar can get is 5 dire avengers or they can get a walker for 10 points less.

Fear is the mind killer
07-12-2006, 13:02
Why doesn't the last chancer count?
He can be fielded in a seperate squad regardless of what is required to buy him.
The man's got a point ya know. Looks like we have a winner with one lonely last chancer equipped with nothing fancy coming in at a scoring unit costing 11pts!

Lord Malek The Red Knight
07-12-2006, 13:43
The man's got a point ya know. Looks like we have a winner with one lonely last chancer equipped with nothing fancy coming in at a scoring unit costing 11pts!
but if we are going to ignore the (relatively huge) cost of fielding him, and all the other required models, why cant we ignore the Inquisitor needed (much less total cost, lower cost per scoring unit, less total # of models needed) to field a Penitent (who's only 7 pts)?

he's a Scoring Unit in his own right, and can even stay on the board after the Inq. if dead (he only needs to Inq in order to be bought - just like the Chancer needs Scaeffer,Kage, etc - he doesnt need him in order to Score: the Scoring Unit is only worth 7 pts).

:confused:

~ Tim

Fear is the mind killer
07-12-2006, 13:46
Hmmm... Didn't think of that.

ZigZagMan
07-12-2006, 14:12
Sigh.... because the Famialer MUST be fielded in the SAME scoring unit as the inquisitor! Making them ONE scoring unit who's points are pretty high. Coulda sworn I've already said that. Shaffer does NOT have to be in the same unit as the last chancer, making him his own seperate scoring unit, regaurdless of what was bought to get him on the field. When you can start placing familiars seperately from inquistors we'll talk, till then give it up.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
07-12-2006, 14:16
Sigh.... because the Famialer MUST be fielded in the SAME scoring unit as the inquisitor!

the Inquisitor is not a scoring unit - the Penitent is a Scoring Unit of 1 model in its own right. please actually read the words on p85-86 of the rulebook. :eyebrows:


When you can start placing familiars seperately from inquistors we'll talk, till then give it up.
coming from someone who doesnt know the rules, thats quite funny. :p

~ Tim
p.s. you should also pay more attention: since it was pointed out that the Familiar is removed if the Inquisitor dies, ive moved on to the next cheapest Scoring Unit - the Penitent. :rolleyes:

swamp_slug
07-12-2006, 14:38
You can leave the familiars out, but a single Elite Inquisitor with one retinue member, lets say a warrior, is still the cheapest WH/DH scoring unit at 30 points.

Crusader

actually WH is an Elite Inquisitor + penitent @ 27pts
DH is cheaper at an Elite Inquisitor + Mystic @ 26pts

Baneboss
07-12-2006, 15:18
the Penitent is a Scoring Unit of 1 model in its own right

In his own right yes but he cant start alone on the board without Inquisitor in the same unit. To field Last Chancer you need to pay for Scheaffer (i dont know the exact rules but i assume) however on the board he is a single unit and Scheaffer is also separate.

If we had to be so restrictive to add Scheaffer cost to single Last Chancer we would also have to add cost of cheapest Tau Commander to Battlesuit because he is 1+ option in the codex. Dont let me start on minimum 2 choices of troops.

Also why Death Company shouldnt be the winner here if we wouldnt have to add Chaplain cost to the unit?

ZigZagMan
07-12-2006, 15:29
the Inquisitor is not a scoring unit - the Penitent is a Scoring Unit of 1 model in its own right. please actually read the words on p85-86 of the rulebook. :eyebrows:
Fine, I went I read it, and I can see what your saying, BUT that doesn't make the inquisitor and the pentient, famailiar or whoever (it doesn't matter, whoever you wanna bring its all the same) able to be fielded seperatly.
The way the rules are written I can see why you are arguing so ferverently. It is the pentient PART of the squad that makes it scoring, and YES he is technically a seperate squad for VPs, but that does not making him able to deploy in his own squad, so hence the inqusitor is part of the squad.



coming from someone who doesnt know the rules, thats quite funny. :p

~ Tim
p.s. you should also pay more attention: since it was pointed out that the Familiar is removed if the Inquisitor dies, ive moved on to the next cheapest Scoring Unit - the Penitent. :rolleyes:
Thats quite a statement from someone who makes thier own interpretations themselves.
But enough, I'd like to ask the creator of the thread which he thinks is the most appropriate, but i'm not argueing anymore with someone who will start throwing personal attacks.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
07-12-2006, 19:54
BUT that doesn't make the inquisitor and the pentient, famailiar or whoever (it doesn't matter, whoever you wanna bring its all the same) able to be fielded seperatly.
lets look at the Chancer: he can run around on his own (so can the Penitent once the Inquisitor is dead) and he can Score in his own right (as can the Penitent), but he cant be fielded by himself: he has to be bought as part of a bigger package (like the Penitent - the differnce is that the Penitent is cheaper, but cannot start as a separate unit).

if the contest is to find the cheapest Scoring Unit, then why shouldnt the Penitent beat the Chancer? he's worth less VPs, he costs less points, he costs less to field overall, and he's still a Scoring Unit in his own right. so he has to tow an Inquisitor around - what difference does that make? the Inq has no bearing on his Scoring Status, or the cost of the Scoring Unit.

the Chancer could choose to be lead by an IC, the Penitent just doesnt have a choice. i dont see what difference that makes, as he is still a separate unit for Scoring purposes.

if we are going to include the cost of the Inquisitor (despite him not being part of the Scoring Unit being entered) then why arent we counting the cost of Schaeffer/Kage and the other Chancers?


Fine, I went I read it, and I can see what your saying,...
The way the rules are written I can see why you are arguing so ferverently. It is the pentient PART of the squad that makes it scoring, and YES he is technically a seperate squad for VPs...
so i was right: you didnt know the rules. you do now, and thats great.


Thats quite a statement from someone who makes thier own interpretations themselves.
eh? of course i make my own interpretations, what else would i do when i read something? ask someone else to tell me what it means? :confused:


i'm not argueing anymore with someone who will start throwing personal attacks.
i didnt make a personal attack - i pointed out that depsite trying to tell me how the rules worked, you didnt understand them (where as i did). you have admitted that and now corrected it, so i dont see the problem: i was right - you didnt know the rules, and it was rather funny to see you telling me i was getting it wrong when i wasnt (especially after i had posted the relevant page numbers earlier in the thread).

not only were you getting the rules wrong while trying to lecture me, you were being sarastic (its best to check you are actually right before turning to sarcasm) and you were missing the fact that i had switched from Familar to Penitent. while it probably wasnt enough to report you, i think you deserved some good natured ribbing (i didnt swear or call you names, and i used several smilies to show it wasnt too serious).

sorry if you took offence, that really wasnt my intention. lets try and keep this fun topic light hearted, yeah? :)

now, back to the Penitent:
is he a Scoring Unit in his own right: yes
how much does this Scoring Unit cost: 7 pts
how much does he cost to field: 27 points total

and the lone Chancer:
is he a Scoring Unit in his own right: yes
how much does this Scoring Unit cost: 11 pts
how much does he cost to field: 154 points total

in my book, that means the Penitent beats the Chancer.

~ Tim
EDIT: looks like the WH Penitent is beaten by the Daemon Hunters:

DH is cheaper at an Elite Inquisitor + Mystic @ 26pts :D

Rhamag
07-12-2006, 22:45
Not gonna win "cheapest" I admit, but could the Ork winner (zzap gun & crew) be tied with a single Wartrukk without a gun? It says "may" buy a weapon, not "must". Does it count as a scoring unit?

BrotherErekose
08-12-2006, 01:42
But enough, I'd like to ask the creator of the thread which he thinks is the most appropriate, but i'm not argueing anymore with someone who will start throwing personal attacks.

I have not seen the codex for the last chancer nor penitent, nor inquisitor.

Since this appears to be my call ("Delusions of granduer, you have, padwan Erekose," the little Jedi Master mumbles):
;)

I was ignorant of units that existed that could be 'scoring' on their own after other parts of their retinue were totally out. Yeah, yeah, Land Raiders, SM Command Squads. That's standard stuff, not wacky fanatic/codexes looking for heresy.
:p
--------------------------
When I started this, my original thought was the 'scoring unit' would have to come on its own, without having to be purchased with other units.

Especially when the Last Chancer (if I've followed all this closely, accurately) comes in with 150 or more points in his 'pork barrel'. That's quite a lot.

Whereas the Penitent+buddies is in the "2 grots and Zzap gun" range.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

What got my brain on this was "Maximizing one's 'scroing units' as inexpensively as possible, but still have a viable army." A few posters have mentioned some stats on exactly that, so I need to re-read this thread...and maybe start another.

ZZM? Tim?

Peace, right guys?
:angel:

-Brother Erekose

Lord Malek The Red Knight
08-12-2006, 02:15
What got my brain on this was "Maximizing one's 'scroing units' as inexpensively as possible, but still have a viable army." A few posters have mentioned some stats on exactly that, so I need to re-read this thread...and maybe start another.
i thought this was just a quiz... :p

i find that taking a few high cost units and then bulking up with cheaper ones gets me plenty of Scoring Units:

1000 pt Eldar (new codex) gets me 6 Scoring Units (pts costs: 50, 100, 100, 198, 196 & 227 pts, with 128 pts non-Scoring). my cheapest Scoring Units are Artillery and a min-sized Guardian Squad. my only non-Scoring Unit is a Farseer (IC).

1500 pt IG gets me 11 Scoring Units (pts costs: 35, 51, 88, 101, 101, 105, 120, 120, 125, 160 & 190 pts, with 304 pts non-Scoring). my cheapest Scoring Units are Command Squads, Armoured Fist Squad and then my Infantry. my non-Scoring Units are my 2 Officers (ICs) and my Chimera (Transport for the Armoured Fist).


ZZM? Tim?

Peace, right guys?
certainly. if you told me it wasnt a quiz i wouldnt have been so concerned with winning. ;) :angel:

as it happens, both the Chancer and the Penitent/Familiar etc would be good for bulking up on cheap Scoring Units, at around 30 pts each (total cost to field).

Ratling Snipers are another good one (33 pts for a min sized squad, with Sniper Rifles and cool rules, but... sucky (IMO) models - and ive got 10 of them).
there are also part strength Infanty Squads ("Remnants") that come in at 30pts min.
Sentinels at 40-45 pts basic (and you can take 4 units of 1 if you want).
40 pts for Rough Riders min (although if you are taking them, you are probably best spending a little more and Lancing the crud outta stuff).

in fact, the more i look at the Codex, the better the Guard look at this:
they can field stupid amounts of Scoring Units in the FOC, and, if they dont take upgrades/big units, they can do this at quite few points per Scoring Unit.

i think that fulling up on cheapy units alone would spell disaster (as they wouldnt pack much punch or have much individual staying power), but using chaff to bulk up the force seems like a good idea. (pick the right FOC slots for your small units and it can help when deploying, too, as you can put dow relatively few points and get to see the bulk of your opponent's army).

cheers mate :)

~ Tim

Baneboss
08-12-2006, 05:35
Lord Malek you completely ignored my post which is bad because if you really want your explanation to be the only right here, then Death Company wins because as a scoring unit they cost 0 points.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
08-12-2006, 13:19
Lord Malek you completely ignored my post which is bad because if you really want your explanation to be the only right here, then Death Company wins because as a scoring unit they cost 0 points.
i had already suggested IG Command Squads, which are also free (for the Scoring Unit part - you only pay for the IC and any upgrades).

the reason i didnt persue this as a "winning" answer was that i wasnt sure which was the most important, cost of the Scoring Unit itself or total cost to field. as things like the Penitent (and lone Chancer) have both, they can be compared however we look at it. the cost to field the Death Co. (or even a basic IC Command Squad) is more than the total cost to field a Penitent/Familiar/Mystic (i dont have C:BA, but im assuming a Death Co Chaplain costs over 100 pts - much more than the ~30 pts for the Inquisition options).

but yes, you are right: if we are going solely on the cost/value of the Scoring Unit (and ignoring things like cost to field), then free ones like Death Co and IG Command Squads would all be tied for the "prize". but wouldnt it suck if the answer to "what is the cheapest Scoring Unit?" was "all the free ones"? ;)

cheers :)

~ Tim

BrotherErekose
09-12-2006, 18:44
Lord Malek you completely ignored my post which is bad because if you really want your explanation to be the only right here, then Death Company wins because as a scoring unit they cost 0 points.

Sorry, Bane, I meant for no 'prize' or special quiz on all of this. Just an angle on composing an army, with more scoring units in mind.

Tim did just that in the post he wrote before the one I quoted from you. The exploring where he detailed his Eldar and IG scoring units.

I'm gona start a new, but similar thread on this.

-Brother Erekose