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laughingman
04-12-2006, 06:39
I have read the new empire book about 100 times in the past week, and i came to some conclusions about the new book.

I believe that they are the same empire they have always been. I want to list some of my reasons and get some of your opinions on the matter.

Ok, for one their troops received no boost in stats, and some even got down graded in stats- although some acquired new special rules that were meant to offset the stat lose.
Core troops received the one point reduction but are still just as ordinary as they have ever been. So i still see halberds as attachments only, and swordsmen as the standard, which is fine I guess. Also, with knights staying just as viable as they have been in the last edition, No reason to overlook them now.

There special choices are still just as competitive, with their new outriders so good in my opinion and a champion having a better bs than an engineer, why not take at least one unit. Cannons are the same great thing they were before, mortars still good for meta gaming, and great swords points cut by two and not being limited their still there i guess, i wouldn't run them still. swordsmen serve the same purpose still and are cheaper. But thats my opinion.

The stank is still good, i don't know why people complain about it, it can still hold a flank on its own and with a str. 8 cannon can still dish out punishment from afar. The engineer should in my opinion now be a must in a hell blaster, having to roll to hit now. The only new edition is better left for painting, too unwielding to be reliable, although potentiality powerful as hell.

So after all of this I think its the same empire as before, not different at all, I think its a good thing, no creeping, just character creeping, first grimgor now the damn mettle caster with his plus 2 to cast and knowing all 6 mettle spells, not to mention his 3+ ward save from magic and shooting, crazy.

Anyway Is this what people wanted from gw? I personally like it, they kept it the same while just making it more competitive and not dominating.

Alfginnar Oakenshield
04-12-2006, 07:16
GW has obviously played it safe with the new Empire book - there's nothing in it that heralds big changes for Empire players, and I'm certain that most will just carry on from where 6th ed. left them.

This can be good or bad depending on how you look at it.
Good because, well, it could have been a lot worse. A few tid-bits has been polished and a few scratched. All in all the army is probably more well rounded now and that's good.
It's bad because, IMO, it's always a little boring that there's no significant new things to exploit and play around with. Also, there are things that I think has been missed. Eg. In spite of a small reduction in cost, there's still no reason (apart from background) to take halbardiers above swords- or spearmen (or knights for that matter). Engineers, in spite of new gadgets, still seem more or less useless.
Also, some of the cool ideas that would allow more custumising, "marks" for knights and such, has been left out.

So all in all, I think the new book is quite decent and I'm still going to start an army, but I can't help being slightly disappointed...

AO

gorenut
04-12-2006, 08:05
I think its good as a whole.. but it still feels like they could have done more. Doing things to show how diverse an Empire army can really get depending on general. I would have liked certain things like allowing 1 unit of Greatswords becoming Core if you have a generic Empire General leading your army. That would definitely free up some specials, make the great sword even more appetizing, give more of a reason to choose the Empire general over the Archlector, and change the list up a bit.

Hellblaster change affects me in no way, I don't use em. Anything they do to knights, same thing. Though I do like the fact that they now allow Grandmasters to join infantry squads. Also the point reduction of Laurels of Victory.. I'm seeing a good combo with a Grandmaster leading either swordsmen or Greatswords helping build CR with the Laurels. Yea, you lose his movement for being on horse.. but atleast you aren't suffering from "eggs in 1 basket" syndrome by putting him in a unit of knights.

Master Engineer still sucks unless you take the hellblaster (which agian, doesn't affect me :) )

Harry
04-12-2006, 08:13
GOOD NEWS

1)I like the overall look of the book. The layout, the Artwork, etc
2)I like the Name the change from Elector to General. Better for theming where a province does not have a 'fighting count'.
3)I like Arch Lectors in because they are there in the Background (albiet only two of them)
4)I like the special characters in (although this is not specific to Empire)
5)I love the Warrior priest/flaggellant core thing. Great for themed armies.
6)I like crossbows back as state troops (if only because I have old mini's that look like state troops not militia).
7)I like the outriders back in.
8)I like the Steam Tank back in.

BAD NEWS
1)I am gutted they did not include some of the options for the Middenhiem/Cult of Ulric types.
2)( Wish they had made halberdiers the obvious choice for parent unit somehow.
3)I would have liked a Witch Hunter character.
4)I was a bit disappointed at first that they did not include a system to customise the Knights Order but I understand why they didn't.
5)Not sure the Rocket Launcher brings much to the party.

Belakor
04-12-2006, 09:19
I always got the impression that the 7th edition and the army books following would be more cosmetic in redesign than a full surgery. At least that is what GW has been advocating somewhat both on the web and in WD.

I am all Empire even without radical changes. The cheaper units, better priests, two new units (yes I like the battery), a new character choice(archlector), all characters in one book (mostly), good fluff, and new good looking state troopers, and so on.

One and a half thumb from me (a half less because I wanted all new artwork and new knights).

Tores
04-12-2006, 10:12
My two cents:

Good things I like:
- STank with Warhammer rules
- Cheaper infantry
- Priests that hates everyone

Bad thingsTM:
- Halberdies should have had some improvement (I4 or WS4)
- No rules for knights orders
- Prayers worthless without wizards backup (and so themed armies can't use them)
- Flagellants very downgraded
- Outriders move or fire that must pay to lose the fast cavalry rule if you want to use your old barded models
- White wolves unusable (really, sometimes I don't understand wtf are smoking in Nottingham. Shouldn't be good stuff though)
- Helblaster now nearly worthless (except for people with really good luck)
- Stank seems still too good (it should take away a hero or special slot)
- No "priest only" magic items la Cult of Ulric
- No duelling pistol :(

NakedFisherman
04-12-2006, 13:53
Greatswords are 10 points, Stubborn Ld8, and have great weapons.

Now, how does that make Swordsmen serve the same purpose?

Mike3791
04-12-2006, 13:55
In spite of a small reduction in cost, there's still no reason (apart from background) to take halbardiers above swords- or spearmen AO

Can someone please explain to me why swordsmen are better then halbardiers? Lots of people favor swordsmen but I dont know how people can resist a S4 unit(halbardiers) for the same cost(with shields) as swordsmen

The Ape
04-12-2006, 14:00
Higher WS and a better save = more survivable than halberdiers. Whilst they can use the hand weapon and shield to get same save, that negates the s4.

A solution may have been to allow halberdiers the same save, but still have S4 - that would have made it a tougher decision between the two.

NakedFisherman
04-12-2006, 14:03
Can someone please explain to me why swordsmen are better then halbardiers? Lots of people favor swordsmen but I dont know how people can resist a S4 unit(halbardiers) for the same cost(with shields) as swordsmen

Swordsmen have an extra point of WS and I. They're good against knight units (the average WS4 ones), but depending on the army's setup, I think Halberdiers are generally a bit better. Overall, they seem pretty balanced.

The main problem with Halberdiers before was that they competed a bit too much with Free Companies. That's not the case now.

The slight 7th Edition changes as well as the new Empire army book seems to have balanced the Empire core choices out pretty well.

Mike3791
04-12-2006, 14:08
when you give halbardiers a shield, they get the same save. Also WS doesnt make a difference. They are hit on 4+ by most troops as well. The thing is, when your fighting lizards, or chaos, dwarves, orcs, that S4 is awesome.

Griefbringer
04-12-2006, 14:15
A solution may have been to allow halberdiers the same save, but still have S4 - that would have made it a tougher decision between the two.

But that would have required decking them out in full plate armour!

jullevi
04-12-2006, 14:47
One possible solution could have been giving halberdiers Heavy armour, but taking away the shield upgrade. Had they been given both, everyone would have used hand weapon & shield for 3+ save, kind of negating the point of having halberds to begin with. However, after seeing goblin armour options become based on wysiwyg, this seemed very unlikely.

To be honest, GW missed up the opportunity to fix weapon balance in 7th edition rulebook. Empire book would have needed some awkward duct tape fixes or free special rules to make halberdiers or spearmen worth taking instead of swordsmen. What they did in NEB was basically reducing the cost of each of the three by one point, but making swordsmen pay one point more for their Ws4 and I4. i don't blame Empire book for not getting state troops balanced. The imbalance comes from the 7th edition rulebook. It's hard to achive balance when the free weapon option is better than those you pay points for.

At this point, the whole army list upgrade (or lack of thereof) sounds like a wasted effort to me. But on the other hand, so did the whole 7th edition according to first rumours. The end result was an overall improvement, but lots of missed opportunities. I expect the empire book to be the same (except for the overall improvement part?).

inq.serge
04-12-2006, 14:58
The empire sounds nice.

If you put an engineer with a hotch in the crew of a rocket battery, or next to one, can he work like a rangefinder/tracer? (a very expensive there of), and is it worth it?

Griefbringer
04-12-2006, 15:11
If you put an engineer with a hotch in the crew of a rocket battery, or next to one, can he work like a rangefinder/tracer? (a very expensive there of), and is it worth it?

That could be rather frowned upon, if it was not relatively uneffective - remember that he shoots the rifle only after the guess tange weapons have been fired.

An old trick is to use a wizard instead (magic phase is before shooting phase), and that is especially frowned upon.

Yade
04-12-2006, 15:12
The new Empire book seems to bbe very good. I have to say that the new army books are all better thought out than the ones in the past. As a seasoned Empire player there are a few things that I would like to say about it.

Steam tank: It is now a newbie item at best. for 300 points it is a total waste. Sure it is more lethal in combat but it still has steam points. At the beginning of the turn you roll the dice and add it to the steam points that you would like to generate (max 5). So lets skip to the downside; one hit from a cannon and your tank would take 6 wounds. You now have 4 wounds and you need to generate steam points; meanin if you want to generate 1 steam point you have to roll a 3 or les on the dice so you can move 3 inches. If you want to shoot your cannon you need to generate 2 steam points and hope to roll a 2!!! or les on the dice. Long story shortened, the tank is going to become virtually useless in about 2 turns to any good opponent and it will most likely still be too far away to even scare the opponent.

Hellblaster: You need to roll to hit with every shot now!! the Master Engineer has BS 4 and the normal guys have BS 3. The misfire 6 now blows the gun up after shooting. It is 10 points cheaper, it is still going to make your opponents mad and it is still going to blow up almost every game. The difference is now it is going to be a lot harder to hit with, even if its str 5 it is stil not worth the rare slot considering the other options.

Rocket Launcher: You guess short like a cannon an then add the artillery dice to that spot. They you reroll the artillery dice, ignoring and misfires, and toss the scatter dice as well. Orky, thats the best description of the weapon. It is going to jack something up, if it ever hits.

Priests: Bound level 4, and the prayers are cooler. If you want to make your opponents scream and cry take 4 priests and 2 steam tanks. have the priests follow the tank around and heal it!!!. The priest lord on a chariot is going to be a good thing if you use a few other priests or wizards to protect his 3 bound spells. The fact that priests now hate every enemy and they confer that on the unit that they are in makes them very valuable. In the end priests got some real rules viagra, and it was needed.

Outriders, BS 4 and 5. Move or shoot fast cav with 3 shots each. this unit is going to be pesky and I think they are going to be faced off like the giant. Everything your opponent has that can shoot or wly will aim for these guys on every possible turn. tactically I would then use them to simply divert the enemy until my other forces arrive. Should they igore the outriders I will roll up in their rear and start giving them at least 15 str 4 ap reasons to think about me every turn.

Greatswords for 10 pts. They are a great unit being that they are stubborn and the fact that they get the swordsmen save and have str 5 attacks and are stubborn? I don't think you could rationalize playing Empire and not using them. 20 greatswords without command are 200 pts and stubborn str 5, 25 swordsmen with command are also 200 points and the extra 5 guys and a banner are not going to make up for how weak they are, str 3 with fear in their blood. One unit should be feared the other is taken just to fill core slots to appease the composition gods.

Flagellants are core, why not. Lets make the empire army as orky as possible. They are cheaper and worth it if you can make a theme out of them. In the end they are much better than before.

Pigeon bombs: Orky again.

In the end the Empire is better off. The only downside is the fact that GW modelled the new Empire after children with down syndrome. Or, they used the creators of Wallace and Gromit to do it for them. The models are so supid looking that I anticipate people buying my spare empire haeds to replace the new ones. I am amazed that someone at GW looked at those faces and approved the production of that line. I used toa rgue that the Empire were like the French, poofy clothing and always running away from a fight but with the dental work that those new Empire need, they are clearly English.

Baindread
04-12-2006, 16:01
Sure it is more lethal in combat


I have been wondering. It does impact hits now, right? How many? 2D6 or?



one hit from a cannon and your tank would take 6 wounds. You now have 4 wounds and you need to generate steam points; meanin if you want to generate 1 steam point you have to roll a 3 or les on the dice so you can move 3 inches. If you want to shoot your cannon you need to generate 2 steam points and hope to roll a 2!!!


That is correct, but seeing as the Empire player is usually the one with a cannon this might not always be the case. And if you play versus dwarfs, their cannons are "only" D3 wounds.

NakedFisherman
04-12-2006, 16:03
Great Cannons don't cause six wounds, they cause D6 wounds.

EvC
04-12-2006, 16:26
3)I like Arch Lectors in because they are there in the Background (albiet only two of them)

Does that include the Arch Lector slaughtered after Mannfred von Carstein infiltrated the Grand Cathedral in Altdorf? :)

laughingman
04-12-2006, 16:34
yes, d6 is a lot different from 6, d6 can cause 1 Wo. and then the tank is still free to do what it wants.

Falkman
04-12-2006, 16:55
- Prayers worthless without wizards backup (and so themed armies can't use them)
I see no reason why a religious themed army can't use some light wizards, their powers are pretty closely tied in to what Sigmar stands for too, blasting daemons and undead, keeping up the courage of the men and so on.

Borin
04-12-2006, 20:10
I find some things stupid in the new empire book:

Master engineer has to be BS5, BS4 it's simply too low with the poor stats and the cost of the engineer.

The Tank steam rules are done badly, with all the drawbacks that give to it get Tougthnes instead of structures points they could have made it that it's absolutely reliable to get the full steam points with all wounds, becouse it cost 300pts!!!!!.

The hellblaster has been made too much worse of being of any use, if only it don't aply negative ballistics modifiers would be of some use right now don't worth the rare slot.

Never understand why don't give heavy armor option to empire units, it's what they need to be a little better and also why don't greatswords get shield becouse then much more people would use them.

The new missile launcher it's too unreliable for being of some use, if only scatter like a stone trower would be a good warmachines.

They have made the damage tables for the new warmachines too bad for how poor they perform.

GW game designers don't have a clue of how to make things good. Other armies have more overpowered options out there to go and kill all the "over line" empire rare options like the actual hellblaster or the "almost unkillable" steam tank without dealing with these before.

Baindread
04-12-2006, 22:07
Couldn't someone with the new book make a quick yet thorough summary of all the new stuff and rules in the Empire army book and send it to me via PM. I would be ever so grateful! *puppy-eyes*. Pretty please?

NakedFisherman
04-12-2006, 22:40
I particularly like that the Pigeon Bombs can target any enemy model and automatically hit. The only problem is that it actually only 'hits' on a 5 or a 6...

The Steam Tank is able to clear obstacles it moves through. :D

It also does D3 S6 impact hits plus an extra D3 for each steam point used to charge (not D6 or the 2D6 nonsense we've heard!).

It can also fire its 18" range cannon while in combat, even on the turn it charged. When it does this, the unit in contact with it takes damage (D3 S2 hits with no armour save).

Unfortunately, it's particularly susceptile to Mork Wants Ya!, Pit of Shades, and the Brass Orb. It automatically fails all Initiative tests!

The special characters are especially powerful versions of their 'basic' entires, but they seem appropriately priced. Kurt Helborg is very powerful in particular. He makes a unit of Reiksguard Knights Stubborn, Immune to Psychology, and wields a Runefang as well as the Laurels of Victory! He forgot his shield at home, apparently, though. :p

It's possible to field two Steam Tanks in a 2000-point army. :(

Akhenaton
05-12-2006, 05:45
I must say that I find this edition of the Empire to be very uninspiring.

Graham McNeil gives the impression of just wanting to get the job done. Some minor point revamps, tweak one or two magic items and viola a new book full of things that won't be taken for another 6 years.

I mean how hard was it to copy and paste the Cult of Ulric in?
How hard was it to create a Witchhunter character, (something I was really hoping for)?
They have all these Ulrican models that they did for the Storm, surely they want to sell some?

Instead they give us an Engineer on a clockwork horse, which once the novelty has worn off will be as useless as any engineer from 6th.

From what I understand they have increased the cost of the engineers while the stat line has remained the same.

Why were people taking too many of them in 6th? :)

Before anybody points to the ability to join the volley gun, I would just like to say why would you pay additional points and a hero slot to gain the same firepower from a war machine that you had previously with a cheaper cost and no hero required?

Harry
05-12-2006, 07:43
It's possible to field two Steam Tanks in a 2000-point army. :(

And a unit of Flagellants!
Oh, and all your special slots as Inner Circle Knights.
Just 250 Points on core and Bobs you uncle! Cheese on a stick!:D

enyoss
05-12-2006, 17:40
Sorry, but just a quick question. In 6th edition Halberdiers had light armour, right? Looking at the comments here, am I correct in assuming they now have heavy armour? If this is the case then I can see why they'd be worth taking now :).

Cheers,

enyoss

laughingman
05-12-2006, 17:44
cheese on a stick, lol.

I think 2 tanks will be seem pretty frequently, but all inner circle knights might just be seen in themed, I would love to see all inner circle, they never do well against me, that may just be my luck though.

gorenut
05-12-2006, 18:31
Sorry, but just a quick question. In 6th edition Halberdiers had light armour, right? Looking at the comments here, am I correct in assuming they now have heavy armour? If this is the case then I can see why they'd be worth taking now :).

Cheers,

enyoss

thats where the complaints are.. people wish they had heavy armor. They still only have light armor.

Belakor
05-12-2006, 21:38
Unfortunately, it's particularly susceptile to Mork Wants Ya!, Pit of Shades, and the Brass Orb. It automatically fails all Initiative tests!

Odd considering it is not affected by any magic, only those that does damage with a given strength (page 51).

fleshtuxedo
05-12-2006, 22:22
I gotta say, lots of good things in the book thus far. I have read my copy a dozen times now, a little dissapointing the lack of new or refurbished magic items like the orcs got... I will get over it.
I am really plussed on the addition of the outriders... decent tradeoff for frontage to get handgunners with a 4+ armor save (barded) and 3x BS3 shots each. When you think of it, quite survivable to march up to a hill and park with 8 guys raining 24 shots a turn onto anyone dumb enough to hang near your flanks...
Steamtank is now a bit mindless, it just works or it doesnt, I like that... fiddly is fun, but if you are wanting to field one... why not make it easy. (they are awful easy to take out)
I do really like the 0-1 removed from the greatswords. This is really a good thing, parent regiments of greatswords... even if its just 2, makes a really solid core of an army, who else gets 10pt stubborn troops with all the bells and whistles like detachments.
Think of those poor wood elf players taking extra heroes to make thier eternal guard stubborn.
That and the ability to have a unit of flagellants as core makes a nigh, unmovable force... this is probably best suited for the tactics threads, so I apologize...
in a nutshell: Empire, no really big suprises, some great new figs, and a little more stuffing for those cod pieces. IF you like em, then you will paint em.

NakedFisherman
05-12-2006, 22:55
Odd considering it is not affected by any magic, only those that does damage with a given strength (page 51).

Mork Wants Ya! has a given strength, the Brass Orb is not magic, and the rules for Pit of Shades say the model is removed as a casualty 'regardless of any special rules or magical protection it may have'.

Varath- Lord Impaler
06-12-2006, 00:08
Odd considering it is not affected by any magic, only those that does damage with a given strength (page 51).

Wow, does that mean i can use indego fire and turn it into a horror?

Ivan Stupidor
06-12-2006, 01:24
Wow, does that mean i can use indego fire and turn it into a horror?

You can try, but S2 can't wound T6.

txamil
06-12-2006, 05:03
I find some things stupid in the new empire book:

The Tank steam rules are done badly, with all the drawbacks that give to it get Tougthnes instead of structures points they could have made it that it's absolutely reliable to get the full steam points with all wounds, becouse it cost 300pts!!!!!.


Are you drunk? It's still one of the best deals in the whole Warhammer universe.
15% of your points for a third of the table.

Borin
06-12-2006, 13:08
With the rule of Steam points+1D6 it's possible to loss a wound with the tank in perfect shape and of course it can't use the steam points that turn (without the later it could be capable of force itself to do something even if it means damaging itself) but that removes the usefulness of the machine becouse you make 3-4 wounds to it and it becomes almost usseful.

If the thing it's not absulutely overpowered undamaged then don't make it worse when it becomes damaged becouse then it's not useful.

The Ape
06-12-2006, 13:37
With the rule of Steam points+1D6 it's possible to loss a wound with the tank in perfect shape and of course it can't use the steam points that turn (without the later it could be capable of force itself to do something even if it means damaging itself) but that removes the usefulness of the machine becouse you make 3-4 wounds to it and it becomes almost usseful.

If the thing it's not absulutely overpowered undamaged then don't make it worse when it becomes damaged becouse then it's not useful.

Punctuation can help you put your point across a lot better.

NakedFisherman
06-12-2006, 14:04
With the rule of Steam points+1D6 it's possible to loss a wound with the tank in perfect shape and of course it can't use the steam points that turn (without the later it could be capable of force itself to do something even if it means damaging itself) but that removes the usefulness of the machine becouse you make 3-4 wounds to it and it becomes almost usseful.

Who says you need to generate the maximum number of Steam Points every turn?

Belakor
06-12-2006, 16:21
Mork Wants Ya! has a given strength, the Brass Orb is not magic, and the rules for Pit of Shades say the model is removed as a casualty 'regardless of any special rules or magical protection it may have'.

Yeah but usually, and I do make this the case, most AB rules overrides the WH Rules. I still say it has to have a given strength and that's is anyway how we play it (Mork is of course different).

Mephistofeles
06-12-2006, 16:55
I think Belakor is correct here. That rule is specifically designed to make it survive against those things.

The Brass Orb still works though, it's not magic.

cisse
07-12-2006, 01:26
I'm yet undecided about whether or not I like the new Empire book.

The point reduction for the infantry seems fair, the fact that not too much has changed is perhaps understandable since Empire was imho one of the best balannced armies in 6th. Easier rules for the ST, good - I built one with much effort, perhaps I'll now be able without someone complaining. Some new touches, like the pidgeon bombs, I really like too.

But - and it's a big but :p : they missed an opportunity to do something about a lot of the problems in the old book, and created new ones as well. Greatsword and priests have gotten a little boost, which they deserved, but halberdiers and engineers are still unlikely to be used. Especially with the engineer I just can't imagine why they didn't make him actually usefull. He's just not worth a character slot, that's needed for other characters (magic defence, leadership, a BSB...). Why not just make him a n upgrade for war machines, like the dwarves got?

Flagellants are a little odd now, I liked them better with T4 and without silly special rules. And the helblaster - well, I always said I thought it was fine, and still stand by that (and no I don't play only Empire), but the new version is just not worth 115 points. Worth the rare slot? Probably, since the special slots will be filled in every Empire army I think, but the rare choices look less attractive. But I digress. I think they gave in to people's complaints about helblasters and weakened them, but they clearly overdid it.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that change can be a good thing, and not all changes have to be positive. But after the WE book, and the Dwarf book (which was essentially also an upgrade instead of a totally new one), cramped with cool stuff (and auto-hitting organ guns), I expected that the problems in the Empire book would be solved too. That's not the case, and O regret it a lot.

ChrisLS
07-12-2006, 01:39
The Brass Orb still works though, it's not magic.

Where does this idea that the Brass Orb is not a magic item come from? It's very clearly in the Enchanted Items section of the Skaven book. This is something that will need to be FAQed, since the item description specifies that it does "Damage Points" to a Steam Tank, which they no longer have.

JonnyTHM
07-12-2006, 04:00
The brass orb is a magic item, but it's not a magical spell. The rule for the steam tank says that spell effects without a strength value are ignored. The brass orb is not a spell.

EvC
07-12-2006, 07:38
I'll have to remember that in case anyone tries to attack my ethereal units with a magic item based attack.

Baindread
07-12-2006, 07:41
Except Ethereal units are wounded by magic attacks, while the Steam Tank special rules specifically states it is only wounded by spells?

J44
07-12-2006, 07:56
I think GW could have done a lot more with the new range. Its cool and all but it just doesent do it for me or mabey im just to picky. I love the standard bearer though, that is an awsome model, but i think the idear of a mechanical steed seems a tad to futuristic and 40kish and is a tad silly, they could of given it a cooler looking rider aswell. but thats me, the models and are still very nice and all but i just think they could have done a bit more.

Belakor
07-12-2006, 08:07
For me, the Stank is safe against any spell effects even if they come from a magic item or the like. Unless they have a given strength that is...

JonnyTHM
07-12-2006, 15:00
The rule is very clear. It does not state ANY immunity to 'magic' in general, only to 'spell effects'. The explanation is even under the heading "magic phase".

A brass orb is a magic item, used in the shooting phase, it is not in any way stopped by this rule.

The rules for ethereal on the other hand specifically say they are vulnerable to magical weapons, and to all spells.

This really doesn't seem to be something that should generate confusion in my mind.

ChrisLS
07-12-2006, 17:05
OK, didn't realize it was a "spells" thing from the context.

Wow, so if someone hits the Stank with a Brass Orb now, it's just dead? Or would it suffer 3D6 wounds?

silashand
10-12-2006, 07:13
Overall I am disappointed with the new book. The loss of the Ulric theme, no knightly orders, etc. has left me with a feeling that it is just a bit bland now. I know GW want to get away from multiple army lists, but you'd think they could include the option for variants into the list itself if they really wanted to. All in all if this is the direction for all the 7th edition books then I must say I'm underwhelmed. I think for my events I will at least allow the older lists if people wish to play them. Just adds some needed fun to the game IMO...

Cheers, Gary

Zanzibarthefirst
14-12-2006, 14:02
karl Franz on dragon!

Axel
14-12-2006, 21:23
I don`t have the relevant rules handy, but if the Brass Orb really specifically mentions "damage points", then its plain useless - there are no more damage points on Steamtanks - it now has wounds.

Baindread
14-12-2006, 21:46
The brass orb says it does 3D6 hull points vs steam tanks. But it also says that anything it hits and which fails an initiative test is automatically destroyed.

NakedFisherman
15-12-2006, 01:39
The brass orb says it does 3D6 hull points vs steam tanks. But it also says that anything it hits and which fails an initiative test is automatically destroyed.

QFT .

Axel
15-12-2006, 07:39
Without the exact wording its not possible for me to judge on the BOs effects, especially in combination with the wording of the Steamtank rules vs. magical effects.

vorac
16-12-2006, 03:04
They'll be plenty of helblasters and Steam tanks available on Ebay soon, not to mention the Cult of Ulric army.

Revlid
16-12-2006, 09:23
especially in combination with the wording of the Steamtank rules vs. magical effects.

There is no wording of Stank rules vs magical effects. It's versus spells, which the Brass Orb isn't.

speedygogo
29-12-2006, 11:23
The brass orb says it does 3D6 hull points vs steam tanks. But it also says that anything it hits and which fails an initiative test is automatically destroyed.

Go figure that the diry rats are trying to find a way to cheat. Its so skaven.
The idea of a magic item instant killing a war machine is just plain stupid. Its a freaking tank for pete's sake. The logic is like a cannon using killing blow on a mountain fortress. I can accept the idea that damage is being done but virtual instant death makes absolutely no sense. And no I am not an empire player. I play VC, OK, and Orcs.

Falkman
29-12-2006, 12:38
speedygogo, tbh it's not that more dangerous than Mork want's ya! (that spell does S10 damage, so the STank should be a valid target, no?)

speedygogo
29-12-2006, 21:52
A valid target yes but an instant Kill no.

Falkman
30-12-2006, 15:55
No, not an instant kill, but enough damage to really hurt the STank royally.

Zap Branigan!
30-12-2006, 20:59
Why are you lot complaining about the helblaster having to roll to hit,it's much better now because you will fire at full range instead of waiting for it too become strengh five.

Madfool2
31-12-2006, 19:14
It's because you have to roll to hit now, and the misfire table.
Anything to do with good killing that goes down in effectiveness = fodder for complaints.

bluesky322
01-01-2007, 03:17
it sorta is nice thats its always strength five since mine never makes it past turn one it always misfires

Von Wibble
02-01-2007, 10:12
I play empire and elves. Since my high elves and wood elves had nothing to deal with the steam tank before (too fast for the treeman) I am glad it has been weakened. The helblaster - whenever I have taken one it has always had a powerful impact on the game (more far more than 125pts powerful). These thing were both overpowered and have been bought into line.

Halberds- I agree with the post saying the problem is in the rulebook not the empire book. Shields are too good compared to the alternatives. (imio armour is too cheap full stop). Halberds should fight in 2 ranks AND get +1 S, and spears should give the unit the stubborn rule in the first round of any combat involving cavalry. This would make swordsmen less viable I think...

Disappointing that knightly orders don't have some nice individuality, but nothing that can't also be fixed with house rules. Its not like the ones in the WD were unbalanced. Cavalry hammers were not great before (MORE points than lance and shield????) - imo they should have kept their rules and white wolf should have gone down in cost.

Petey
02-01-2007, 21:54
None of the weapons work right, when compared to historical equivalent weaponry.

Hell the basic cheap weapon of choice (also the one thought to be least worth having on elites) was the spear.
The Sword was not only a mark of station, but also a better weapon with shield, and should cost it and represent it. The swordsman should be able to brutally kill their way through spears and pikes.
The halberd, and glaive were universal in all cultures that got to a medieval culture (whether you called it a Naginata, a Gwondao, a Glaive, or anything else) and it's use was for killing cavalry and swordsmen (who typically had more armor than useless spear wielding chumps) but they were of less use against the spearmen, who could often beat the halberdiers.

After those 3 basic weapons for infantry things get odder. German longswords and early scottish claymores were used because they were fast (not in fact the opposite, as GW has made) and broke spears and pikes. Seriously, the rules for cathayan long sword should have been the universal rules for great weapons.

I m not saying i know the best answer to all this, but i do believe that halberds need a fix. And to keep with the established flow and style of the game, the only fix i see is give them armor piercing and leave them the same otherwise (as GW has them costed the same as spears currently) as they just aren't worth the points you pay for them.

vorac
03-01-2007, 01:58
Mordheim used some good rules for weapons, GW should have used some of these, what i would have done.

Spears always stike first when charged, have +1 str versus cavalry or monsters, fight in 2 ranks, 3 if HE

Halberds- require 2 hands, Str+1 armour piercing,

Greatweapons- +2 str, cannot be used mounted

laughingman
03-01-2007, 04:40
has anyone play tested any of this, because it is remaking the game itself, Until proper play testing you should call that version warcrazy.

luck*is*my*friend
03-01-2007, 10:15
i would like to se a unit of Witch Hunter's and T4 on flagellants. maby some elite shooting unit hockland long..... rocket thingy dont fit in to the empire army dont like it. would be cool whit a vampire hunter or Witch Hunter hero/lord.. and outriders shuld not have move or fire!!!!!!!! its soooo stupid!!! why even give them horses? maby some haflings? cant wait to get my hands on the new empire book:)

alien
03-01-2007, 10:40
hmmm
is there any place, where is writen that outriders have rules move or fire ??
Becouse i saw only that , outriders has repeater handgun. In 6th edition repeater handgun have only AP and multishot rules - they havent got move or fire rules....

Deathjester
03-01-2007, 12:15
Yes, under the rule for repeater handgun (which is all respects a handgun with 3 shots) and as everyone knows handguns are move or fire.

However, that a) doesn't mean you can't move and then stand and shoot.
b) they have the same range, better armour, 2 more shots & higher BS than a Handgunner, and cost around 3 times the price.... bargin?

alien
03-01-2007, 13:38
Deathjester: hmmm - tell me why we should interprate repeater handgun rules ?
is there any reason to do that ? ( is any one another place, where we have to do that ?
you said that repeater handgun is multiple handgun - and handgun have move or fire rules...
it sound ok.
but now - if you take outriders - fast cawalery with move or fire rules - that is make any sens !! isn't it ?
but if repeater handgun is without move or fire rules - it make then sensible force! with move or fire rules - outriders are completly useless ! special chose, fast cawalery ,expensive - 20 point!!
With BS 4 , when outriders move, use multishot and are over 12" they will hit only on 6 !! is that so powerfull ?
i think, there is no move or fire rules to them. It make them worth to take instead gratesword, grate canon or inner circle knightly order - in any other situation they aren't.

Deathjester
03-01-2007, 14:37
Deathjester: hmmm - tell me why we should interprate repeater handgun rules ?
is there any reason to do that ? ( is any one another place, where we have to do that ?
you said that repeater handgun is multiple handgun - and handgun have move or fire rules...
it sound ok.
but now - if you take outriders - fast cawalery with move or fire rules - that is make any sens !! isn't it ?
but if repeater handgun is without move or fire rules - it make then sensible force! with move or fire rules - outriders are completly useless ! special chose, fast cawalery ,expensive - 20 point!!
With BS 4 , when outriders move, use multishot and are over 12" they will hit only on 6 !! is that so powerfull ?
i think, there is no move or fire rules to them. It make them worth to take instead gratesword, grate canon or inner circle knightly order - in any other situation they aren't.

I assure you that they are move or fire, simple as that.

Those are the rules as written in the new empire book.

Nothing more nothing less.

samw
03-01-2007, 14:51
Deathjester: hmmm - tell me why we should interprate repeater handgun rules ?
is there any reason to do that ? ( is any one another place, where we have to do that ?
you said that repeater handgun is multiple handgun - and handgun have move or fire rules...
it sound ok.
but now - if you take outriders - fast cawalery with move or fire rules - that is make any sens !! isn't it ?
but if repeater handgun is without move or fire rules - it make then sensible force! with move or fire rules - outriders are completly useless ! special chose, fast cawalery ,expensive - 20 point!!
With BS 4 , when outriders move, use multishot and are over 12" they will hit only on 6 !! is that so powerfull ?
i think, there is no move or fire rules to them. It make them worth to take instead gratesword, grate canon or inner circle knightly order - in any other situation they aren't.

Putting the shooting equivalent of 15 handgunners (300mm frontage) into 5 outriders (125mm frontage) and giving them 360 degree shooting capability, and the ability to run behind enemy forces, and a stand and shoot reaction that will terrify enemy countermeasures like other fast cav and flyers is rather good. Handgunners are never in range if you go first anyway, so use that first turn positioning these guys on a flank and wreak havoc for the rest of the game. You don't use them like fast cav, you use them as a superb firebase that can get out of danger.

Cherrystone
03-01-2007, 16:39
Impressed with the book, especialy with the page count.

But
I think swordsman should of stayed at 7 points, with halberdiers and spears at 5.

and

Im gutted that huntsman no loner have long bows!

Captain Cortez
04-01-2007, 04:11
Impressed with the book, especialy with the page count.

But
I think swordsman should of stayed at 7 points, with halberdiers and spears at 5.

and

Im gutted that huntsman no loner have long bows!

Huntsman don't have Long bows? Dang it!:mad: What a disapointment!

Makarion
04-01-2007, 08:02
OK, didn't realize it was a "spells" thing from the context.

Wow, so if someone hits the Stank with a Brass Orb now, it's just dead? Or would it suffer 3D6 wounds?

There's no significant difference between the two, although it might sit around for a few rounds looking silly while bolt throwers, guns or you-name-it remove the last few hits off the monster. Even at minimal damage (3 on 3d6) the Steam Tank has become a liability as much as an asset.

If it were not for the gruesome cost of the model, I'd like to try it out nonetheless, but I'm currently preferring to spend those $ on a pegasus, gryphon and about a dozen pigeons for laughs. And no mechanical horses, thank you :) .

the_orc
04-01-2007, 09:17
Why does empire cavalry not get more expensive? Everyone knows that cavalry was too cheap in 6th edition. That's why everyone played tons of cavalry if given the choice. With 7th edition rules cavalry gets even better. So orc boar riders got a 25% point boost, but empire knight orders are even getting one point cheaper (I guess thats because the initiative dropped one point).

The war altar is a joke: Chariot, 3 bound spells, unit strength 5 and a 4+ Ward save for 225 Points. - I don't expect to see any other empire general in the future. - It is easy to foresee that this guy will be running around with the speculum.

The steam tank is a all or nothing weapon. If the enemy has S6 or more in large numbers the tank will be gone pretty soon. If not lean back and watch this monster defeating the enemy alone while the entire rest of the army is waiting in its deployment zone.

Warrior priests: Unit now hates every enemy, not only chaos and undead. Nice, just what I needed to compensate for inner circle now being special.


I think the point reduction for infantry is pretty much worthless, since no one will play infantry. The typical empire army will look like this:
1 big warrior priest on war altar.
2 units knight orders with warrior priests
2 units handgunners (as always)
2 cannons
2 units outriders
1 unit of core flaggellants
volley gun
steam tank
wizard with 2 dispel rolls

If there are points left, take whatever you want. - And believe it or not: I even have more bound spells than khemri: 7 to be exact, including both rings.


the_orc

Baindread
04-01-2007, 11:28
Why does empire cavalry not get more expensive? Everyone knows that cavalry was too cheap in 6th edition. That's why everyone played tons of cavalry if given the choice.

"Normal" cavalry wasn't too good in 6th ed. It was the megacavalry which was too easy to get and too good, not too cheap. Chosen Chaos Knights, Grail Knights, Inner Circle Knights. But they have started to change the knights now by making IC become special...expect to see the same thing in the new Chaos book.

the_orc
04-01-2007, 13:29
"Normal" cavalry wasn't too good in 6th ed.

I don't agree. All-cavalry high elf, dark elf, vampire and empire armies were doing quite well on tournaments. At least compaired to the infantry options of those armies. - And those mega cavalry armies were regularly seen as winners on tournaments (espacially bretonia, that currently is absolutely over the top)


With 7th edition cavalry is getting even better. Many infantry units have less rank bonus which does not really affect cavalry, since they are usually fielded in units that don't have ranks (exception bretonia, but they have their own rules anyway). But cavalry benefits from it since it makes it easier for them to win a combat. Also being able to fight two hth combats in one round somehow happens more often to cavalry since they pursue or overrun further than infantry (asuming that the war altar has charged the unit your cavalry intents to overrun into before combat starts).

Also the new rules for skirmishers help cavalry. Not only that skirmishers can't escape anymore once cavalry is within 8". Also the new FAQ clearly allows tactical charges on skirmishers which means: If you get to charge skirmishers you definitely overrun in a direction of your choice. - This helps all units against skirmishers, but cavalry and chariots have the range to make proper use of it.

Swarms don't help against cavalry either.

I wonder how you are going to stop an all-cavalry empire army if you don't have stubborn or unbreakable infantry. - Ah, yes. With cavalry, of course.


CU - the_orc

Petey
04-01-2007, 16:44
Cav really comes in many varieties, it's hard to generalize. But if we only focus on the 3 main types; Heavy, Fast, and Flying we do see that all cavalry has gotten stronger.
With the advent of destruction if fleeing through units with a strength of 5 or more (which with cav. is 3 models) Fast cav and flying cav become much more important and tactical.
Heavy Cavalry, or Knights, in this game haven't gotten Much stronger with the new rules, but they don't need to be. In fact, in some ways they need more toning down. The great speed, amazing armor and intense hitting power of these units makes them easily make their points in most games, and sadly the standard rock paper scissors of the day doesn't work on them.
Cavalry > Archery > Infantry > Cavalry
or at least this is the theory of ancient and medieval warfare. Archers should no be able to kill many infantry, and infantry (if it holds when hit with a charge) will grind Cavalry into the ground. Classically, cavalry is fast enough and armored enough to kill archers, skirmishers and other horsemen. The hope they have against infantry comes from heavy kills on a charge (see Frankish Knights circa first crusade) or excellent use of flank charging (see Alexander the Great battle of gagamella)
The BASIC rules of warhammer seem to do this ~well enough, but the problem is when you add characters you add a LOT of killing power to an already hard hitting unit. Couple this with the fact that infantry is basically just waiting for cavalry to fail a roll, and not meaningfully inflicting harm on the cavalry unit then we have a problem.
My point in case, last weekend i was playing dark elves against empire. My opponent had a unit of 8 knight panther that i charged on the front with dark elf corsairs (it was either that or be charged in the following turn). My side had an assassin, his had a warrior priest. my unit cost with assassin was about 450 his was 420 meaning, all things equal my charging should ensure victory (if only based on points) looking at the math however tells another story. The knight had str 4 and a 1+ save, that made them mostly impervious to my attacks from the unit, and the assassin statistically should kill one or two enemies (lets say he kills 2). The knights retaliate with 5 attacks (includes priest) of which, since they have hatred 4 hit, and 3 wound, and i m not likely to make anysaves and i don't, then the horses attack 4 hits turns into 2 more wounds, lets say i even make one, they've done four wounds in total, so now he out numbers me and has caused 4 wounds to my two. When you do all the math, he has tied me and next round will be my defeat, and I was the one who charged, imagine that.
The bonus from rank is not enough. Outnumber is good but can't be counted on. If i have a standard, it's more likely a knight unit will have a magic standard.
This may have all been due to an inherant weakness in the DE list as a whole, but i feel this is in all regards a fair assessment of how Cavalry works, and somehow, that needs to be toned down a bit, or infantry needs to get stronger to make it viable, if that in deed is their goal. If it isn't, we all need to get used to the fact that we need knights in our armies.

Arhalien
04-01-2007, 17:40
I just hoep that anyone I will be playing against will be playing a balanced army ahead of playing to win. It's what I'm trying to do, by deliberately not playing a cav-magic heavy elf army, and by not tooling my Eldar against Marines.