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View Full Version : Will 7th ed. make or break WFB?



Gabacho Mk.II
08-07-2005, 08:18
Have been thinking about this for quite a whiles now:

I have been gaming WFB for nearly 12 years or so. Through these many years, I have seen many differing companies other than GW come and go. But now, the trends seem to support (IMO) that the gaming public is well aware of the many changes in tabletop gaming, such as the many new fantasy gaming rules/games now available.

Having said all of this, I believe that the upcoming WFB 7th ed will, in many ways, end up either 'making' or 'breaking' GW's Warhammer Fantasy Battle.

Maybe that is a bit too harsh. A better way to put it is to say that GW's hold on fantasy tabletop gaming will suffer a serious setback (and I might argue - loss of followers) if 7th ed. doesn't quite deliver.


Any thoughts on this matter?

FlameKnight
08-07-2005, 08:42
I don't really agree. GW wouldn't really screw up the game that much. Even if the new edition just compiled all of the revisions, it would still be good enough. Warhammer fantasy is just about the only popular fantasy game, and people wouldn't just get up and leave.

Look at what happened with the new 40k rules; they weren't THAT much of an improvement, but they still drew in more customers.

So, I don't think a new edition will "make or break" the game.

Karhedron
08-07-2005, 08:46
I agree with FlameKnight, 7th edition will be evolutionary but not revolutionary. 7th edition is supposedly like 4th edition 40K in that it is a minor release with all the old army books still usable. I seriously doubt they will change anything that will alienate existing players. Possibly they will release a new starter set to help them hook more kiddies, that is about it.

Personally I just hope they clarify the rulebook slightly and make some modest revisions to the magic system (no more Magehammer please).

Eldacar
08-07-2005, 09:09
Personally I just hope they clarify the rulebook slightly and make some modest revisions to the magic system (no more Magehammer please).
I would just be happy to see those there, plus the clarifications in Chronicles they've handed out over the years. Oh, and I would also like them to tone down the "Cavalryhammer" that seems to be another prevalent theme in this edition.

gobbla
08-07-2005, 13:44
if they do the ravening hoards again it'll hurt...if they keep everything playible as is then warhammer will plug right along

Eldanar
08-07-2005, 14:51
I tend to agree with Gabacho.

There are simply too many quality competitors to GW now, than there have been in the past. Given a decent choice between varying rules sets, miniatures, pricing and game support, if GW doesn't make some radical improvements, they could be in for some trouble.

Morph
08-07-2005, 15:10
I disagree. I don't think any competitors are threatening enough that a 'bad' edition of Warhammer will force players away in large numbers. It's hard to give up on a game, especially when you've invested a lot of money in buying an army (or a few armies).

Plus as 7th seems to be more a rules revision rather than a new game it seems unlikely it will significantly upset a lot of players.

tzeentchgiant
08-07-2005, 15:49
GW is too stable to be affected much by one bad ruleset, not that they will reate that anyway.

By the time of the change over people will be eagerly awaiting the new army books, GW relies on constant renewal, and I think they've pretty much got the formula down for that.

Too many other reasons for the change over being successful to mention, most revolve around the young history of GW, see how well it's done in previous new editions, they won't change their winning formula just for the sake of it.

TG

Eldanar
08-07-2005, 15:49
I do not think the problem is so much people leaving the game, but rather that they have already left. GW has to make some improvements to get people back.

Look at IcedCrow's thread regarding the "state of gaming in your area," or go to the Other GW Discussion board and look at the threads discussing stores dropping GW from their gaming stock.

People who are playing regularly currently will probably not stop playing. But it is the multitude of other people who have moved to other systems which are needed to keep the game, and GW, healthy and vibrant.

tzeentchgiant
08-07-2005, 15:56
Yes people are leaving, but a new edition won't affect that.

It's outpricing that is causing most people to leave, and that was actually the point of IcedCrow's thread, that the local retailers are losing out as people see it as no longer worth it to buy from GW.

But that discussion is for another thread.

TG

Eldanar
08-07-2005, 17:01
I agree with you that pricing is as much, if not more of a deterrant to the game than new rules. However, a new edition working with price increases could negatively impact the game, if it has the typical pendulum shift which GW invariably introduces with each new edition. This would be where units which were once good, and people may have a lot of, now are not so good; and units which were once not so good, become much better. The rules and the pricing would then work together to discourage people from redesigning their army with the newly improved units.

Steel Rabbit
08-07-2005, 17:39
First of all, like what was already mentioned, the new edition will be a revised one, meaning that all the models and Armies Books will be able to be used. It would be *#@!ing stupid if they redid the codexes seeing as the Wood Elf one isn't out yet, and I doubt 7th edition will come out in 2009 :rolleyes:

Second of all, GW isn't threatened by other Wargames, if it was it would have died out a long time ago in the '90s when Target Games were big, or it'd be on its knees now with Warmachine and Confrontation. But its not, it's Games, *******', Workshop. I don't know what the fanbase is like in other countries or cities, but in BC, Canada not a single person that I can think of has left Warhammer for another game, they play in addition to Warhammer, or they JUST play Warhammer. Warhammer 6th edition is so good that that's the reason why it's been in place for 5 years and the seventh edition shows no sign of rearing its head. Though I agree that no game is perfect, Warhammer 7th edition wont change the ebb and flow of 6th edition too much.

Just a redshirt's $0.02 CDN

Bingo the Fun Monkey
08-07-2005, 18:39
It won't be a bad system...but the rising prices, to me, seem completely illogical and irrational. It is obvious on many local levels that no one is getting into the game, a lot are leaving or refusing to buy first hand due to the prices. These price hikes (adjustments as they call them) have caused my local RT store to lose a lot of business...even from me (a very loyal customer). I was gone for a couple months and I return to find that they had to sell the half of the store that had the gaming room where my club played. Is it really such a novelty to lower prices to increase sales?

Taliesynkp
08-07-2005, 18:53
I think it really depends on what country you are talking about.

In the US they are on the ropes. As of now they really don't have any serious competition in there market niche, it's just that the niche is shrinking rapidly. GW's heavy-handed attempts to manipulate the market may be a small part of the problem but mostly it's competition from other sources of entertainment. Yesterday, the staff at my FLGS said most casual players (like me) have dropped the game entirely but the 5-6 fanatics are still coming in and buying arm loads of stuff - while complaining vociferously about the prices. The problem is that no new players have started the game in years. As old players drop out there are no new players coming into the hobby.

Interestingly enough, my dad said the same thing about stamp collecting recently. He said stamp collecting is almost dead, there simply aren't any new people getting into the hobby.

WunderBullub
09-07-2005, 00:46
I think it more depends on the area of the country even.
I just moved out of the Seattle area and the GW stores were doing stupidly well in spite of the ridiculous prices.
And while a lot of us old timers have started to buy minis from other companies or are sculpting our own, the store was never lacking in customers. Many of them were quite young and obviously new to the hobby.
So at least from what I have seen GW is in no way "on the ropes".
In fact I would hazard to say that they are doing too well;
I am now noticing many other lines of miniatures are adopting a similar pricing level to GW such that now GW isn't that much more expensive than what used to be their cheap alternatives.

Slappy
09-07-2005, 02:18
Canada not a single person that I can think of has left Warhammer for another game, they play in addition to Warhammer, or they JUST play Warhammer

Well here in Houston, dozens of people have left GW for Warmachine and Flames of War. I am one of them. I am currently selling/throwing away all my GW stuff. It can all go to hell. It's sad because I always knew GW and their "game systems" were a joke, which is why I switched to playing Warzone (a real game system) in the 90's. But eventually, those players left the gaming scene when the local store we all played at went out of business. Eventually I got back into gaming a few years later when a new shop opened up here but it was chocked full of GW peeps. So, since that was the only gaming system to play with people (aside from the dumb card games), I got back into it. But now, most of those players play Warmachine and Flames of War, and Warhammer seems to only be played by those people who have spent much time and much money on their armies. They have put too much into GW to back out now, and I feel sorry for them.

Both games just keep getting bigger too with no sign of problems.

GW will eventually lose it's status to Privateer Press. I practically guarentee it. There is a sad ending to this though. PP will keep raising it's prices, it's customer service will eventually become crap, and it will turn into the monster that GW is today. Sad but I think it's inevitable. The signs are already starting to show.

EvilIncarnate
09-07-2005, 03:26
Warmachine and Confrontation are not big massed units fighting each other. They are not going after GW market share (not yet anyways) because they are two different types of games. Just because some people drop out others ones come in it is the same with any hobby.


PP will keep raising it's prices, it's customer service will eventually become crap, and it will turn into the monster that GW is today. Sad but I think it's inevitable. The signs are already starting to show.

Oh really now? What signs?

Archaon
09-07-2005, 04:05
Hm..i regard 6th edition as a huge advancement when you consider 4th/5th edition where everything hung on these 1 or 2 powercharacters. You lost them you lost the game.

Herohammer was really the reason i could have left GW if i were not so young back then and 6th edition was introduced.

6th edition put the emphasis more on troops which was simply more fun (apart from having to buy more minis :rolleyes: ) but inevitably it was not perfect. Magehammer and "Cavalryhammer" have reared its head coupled together with minor/major nitpicks which were dealt with in multiple supplements. If they manage to clear that up with 7th i will be one happy gamer since i believe WH is a very fine system and far superior to 40K.

Let's wait and see but i believe GW will improve it since it is one of the two pillars GW is based on and they have to be very careful with that. Even GW can't allow itself to f... this one up because even more people would leave the game if the rules are mostly crap.

Gabacho Mk.II
09-07-2005, 09:22
Well here in Houston, dozens of people have left GW for Warmachine and Flames of War. I am one of them. I am currently selling/throwing away all my GW stuff. It can all go to hell. It's sad because I always knew GW and their "game systems" were a joke, which is why I switched to playing Warzone (a real game system) in the 90's. But eventually, those players left the gaming scene when the local store we all played at went out of business. Eventually I got back into gaming a few years later when a new shop opened up here but it was chocked full of GW peeps. So, since that was the only gaming system to play with people (aside from the dumb card games), I got back into it. But now, most of those players play Warmachine and Flames of War, and Warhammer seems to only be played by those people who have spent much time and much money on their armies. They have put too much into GW to back out now, and I feel sorry for them.




Well said and I must agree with your take on this.

It is funny that less than 2 years ago, I used to game at an indie store nearly 40 miles away from where I live. At this store, the majority of gamers were (are) at least 25-years-old and very much into gaming WFB. However, right after the introduction of WarMachine and FOW, this group of 20 players decided to give both of these systems a shot and began to purchase minis and associated rulebooks. Very soon after, our whole group began to slowly shift away from WFB. Nowadays, you couldnt find a single player willing (or interested) in gaming WFB, even after years of 'dedicated allegiance' to GW and its WFB rules/minis.

At another indie store that I frequent at (no more than 4 miles away), the main group of gamers were brought up on and continue to game with 40K and WFB. The majority of these players are in their early 20's, and were introduced to gaming by GW games/rules. Out of the 15 players, only a third play anything other than GW's main two games (40K - WFB). Come 10 years from now, this same group will continue to game GW's games, barring the closing of the main indie-store in which we meet at or something more catastrophic than that.



I do have a strong feeling that come 7th ed, if most of the above mentioned problems to WFB rules (cavalryHammer, movement rules, charging etc) are not dealt with and "corrected," an evident shift of players will most certainly move to more "traditional" games (Ancients, Napoleanics, Modern Armor, etc).

I will venture to guess that GW will lose more than 25% of its followers (WFB gamers) if 7th ed doesnt "meet expectations."

Most of my rationale is due to the common trends and gamers' feelings that I have come across and identified with those that I game with in my locale (Los Angeles, Ca.)

-Ed
09-07-2005, 09:56
GW's biggest threat wouldn't come from older players leaving, it would come from new players not starting. GW's biggest threat isn't PP, Battlefront, Rackham or itself, it's (imo) computer games.

Kids for the most part just seem more contented playing computer/video games than getting into a hands on hobby. GW haven't really made any big moves to cut down on competitors (don't give me **** about all GW models at tournies, that's business sense), but they did start diversify into the electronic entertainment market through the foundation of GWI, Games Workshop Interactive.

This won't be something that will kill GW, but it is definetely a factor in what will soon be a plateau of GW's profits, after a strong 10 year rise.

Sir_Turalyon
09-07-2005, 10:36
I would not say so; reasons for which people get into Warhammer and computer games are rather different. Games are quick and challenging but schematic time-killer, while hobby gives personal expression possibilities (creating and collecting your individual army) and un-repetitive challenges.

BoosterX
09-07-2005, 15:01
I think there tends to be alot of exaggeration of the "yeah and lots of people are leaving GW where I play"...

It's usually a good way to make yourself feel more secure when you pretend there are alot of people who stand behind you.

I've seen people quit WFB, but they usually couldn't even paint or understand how to remove mold lines. On the odd occasion a WFB player will quit, but he will be replaced with 5 new gamers.

I'd be the first person to pick up any other fantasy game. I'd love to play Ragnarok (I own the rule book) but the rules are clunky and I dread fielding an all metal army..

WFB has no competition in the fantasy segment.

Warmachine is just a clever CCP. Some of their figs make GW's bad releases look good.

Gabacho Mk.II
10-07-2005, 10:57
I think there tends to be alot of exaggeration of the "yeah and lots of people are leaving GW where I play"...



Well, this might be true. I grant that.

However, I have gamed exclusively GW's WFB for more than a decade now. During this time, many cycles of gaming have come and gone. Most players can easily identify a 'slump' or resurgence of interest when the trends are so evident.

With that in mind, I can recal that in the past, some of us have always shifted to other games but quickly came back when interest was lost. WFB was the main and sometimes only fantasy game around.

This is not true now. There are several companies that are taking away players from GW. I have experienced this, to my amazement, at no less than 3 stores near where I live.

Add to this that more and more players are quite willing to give their monies to other companies other than GW, and you can probably understand the gist of my argument.

Jabba_TheHunt
10-07-2005, 22:25
I think GW should put a lot more effort into proof-reading the beautiful hardback rulebook that we will be forking out 50+ quid on. I dont want to be buying an annual with amendments for typo's, wrong diagrams and cut out sections for rules that were explained incorrectly.

If they just tweak the current version so that people can have themed armies without being overpowered that would stop a lot of moaning (overdosing on magic being the most common cause of complaint that I hear).

They could manage this easily if they redirect resources from the well-flogged horse that is Lord of The Rings.

McHaggis
11-07-2005, 01:19
As a few people have stated, I honestly think GW will definitely 'clean up and clarify' the book to a more precise and less contradicting standard :D

As a lot of us know, the current edition is indeed not clarity in all regards. Though its without a doubt that GW has come to terms in correcting the issue with the repeated QAs and annuals, chronicles etc that has been released over the years. I feel that when 7th comes around that it will be much less a rulebook of 'snakes and ladders' and really be a major improvement over the current one.

As of it being the possibility of making or breaking; i highly doubt it will break the game. I doubt that anything drastic will be brought in that can really deal such a blow. As I stated, i really think that the usual responsiblity of balancing, tweaking, and clarifying will only come with the edition. Nothing too big or radical changes will though. But hey, we'll find out either way.

Etienne de Beaugard
11-07-2005, 04:17
The upcoming edition would have to be really atrocious to effect GW's market share. I rather expect a modest improvement in the next edition.

As others have said, changing trends in the hobby market combined with backlash against current GW business policiesm are a greater threat to WFB than the upcoming rules change.

I expect we'll see a downturn in WFB, even with the new edition. The five years of fantasy-fever produced by Peter Jackson's movies is dying away. Current youth culture seems increasingly geared towards superheroes and gritty SciFi. Within a few years, 40k will be GW's cash cow to an even greater extent than now.

Gorbad Ironclaw
11-07-2005, 10:24
I don't see any real problems here. The local store seems to be pretty good at getting kids to buy stuff, and there always seem to be new people who are certainly not part of the old, long established club we have. From my perspective, GW doesn't have any problems here in Denmark.

And I don't really see a new edition changing anything either way. It's not going to radically alter the game, just refine it a bit.

I don't see any real competitors for the fantasy marked share either. Only competing game system I have ever seen played here would be LotR, and thats just another GW game.

I have never seen, or even heard about people playing any of the other fantasy games out there. And I don't think there are any warmachine models around here either, at least I never seen any. We are a couple that plays FoW, and some other games. But it's certainly not people leaving GW in droves or even putting up a real competition for the miniature game marked. If anything, it's computer games and CCGs thats drawing people away. Not other fantasy games. I don't see any real competition at all.