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Yade
05-12-2006, 16:32
I have 2 item combos that I need to get some rulings on.

Lizardmen

1. If I take the Blade of Realities (Ignores ward saves and does double wounds vs demons) and the Bane Head (Doubles all wounds caused to a nominated enemy character), how many wounds would I do if I scored 2 hits on an enemy character that is a demon?

would it be 6 wounds because each effect doubles the original or would it be 8 wounds because the effects are not simultaneous and the wording allows the Bane head to stack with the weapon?

Wood Elves

2. If my character has taken An Annoyance of Nettings (In a challenge the opponent only hits on 6s) and the same character takes the Fimbulwinter Shard (all enemies are -1 to hit the bearer in close combat), what would my opponent need to hit me in close combat?

Would the second item be useless or would my opponent actually need 7s to hit, essentially negating poison and killing blows?

Thanks so much for helping me with these brain teasers.

NakedFisherman
05-12-2006, 16:39
1. If I take the Blade of Realities (Ignores ward saves and does double wounds vs demons) and the Bane Head (Doubles all wounds caused to a nominated enemy character), how many wounds would I do if I scored 2 hits on an enemy character that is a demon?

None. You'd need to roll to wound first. :p

It'd be eight wounds, though: 2x2x2 = 8.


2. If my character has taken An Annoyance of Nettings (In a challenge the opponent only hits on 6s) and the same character takes the Fimbulwinter Shard (all enemies are -1 to hit the bearer in close combat), what would my opponent need to hit me in close combat?

A roll of 6 to hit always hits. There is no 7s and such with hitting in close combat.

Ophidian
05-12-2006, 16:49
2x2x4 = 8.

So that's why they failed me in maths...

NakedFisherman
05-12-2006, 16:53
So that's why they failed me in maths...

The 4 was a relic from what I originally typed. :eyebrows:

TheWarSmith
05-12-2006, 17:52
It'd be 6 in my opinion

You can't double count the first 2 wounds. You get 2 additional wounds from each item, then the base 2 wounds. You don't get to double the double.

I don't think the 2 would double off of each other. They'd BOTH double the base wounds and add together.

Agreed on the 6 to hit.

DeathlessDraich
05-12-2006, 18:15
I agree with Warsmith
Both magic items use the phrase "unsaved wounds are doubled". Therefore if 2 wounds are unsaved each item would double it to give 6 wounds in total.
It would be 8 wounds, if the phrase used is "unsaved and magically inflicted wounds are doubled"OR "any wounds are doubled "

NakedFisherman
05-12-2006, 18:41
This question comes up often:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34689
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54215

The Blade of Realities does double wounds against Daemons. The Bane Head causes any wound caused on a nominated character to becomes two wounds (I wish I had my Lizardmen army book with me at the moment for the quotes).

The first wound is multiplied into two by the Blade of Realities. Now each of those wounds is then again doubled due to the Bane Head.


Both magic items use the phrase "unsaved wounds are doubled". Therefore if 2 wounds are unsaved each item would double it to give 6 wounds in total.
It would be 8 wounds, if the phrase used is "unsaved and magically inflicted wounds are doubled"OR "any wounds are doubled "

What's the difference? A wound that isn't saved is unsaved. The Daemon has no chance to make a save. The wound is most certainly unsaved, since he took the wound. The rules make no distinction between any wounds or magically-inflicted wounds because they don't need to: a wound that is not saved is simply a wound. You won't find any entries for any wounds or magically-inflicted wounds in the rulebook anywhere for that reason.

DeathlessDraich
05-12-2006, 18:51
It's the implication - an "unsaved wound" occurs immediately after saves have been taken. A "wound" could be wounds after saves or wounds that have been 'multiplied' magically.
Both The LM magic items above, state "unsaved wound" implying that they act simultaneously when the wound is inflicted and not one after another. This is also consistent with the use of magic items during the combat phase - e.g. dwarf weapon runes act simultaneously unless otherwise stated.

Yade
05-12-2006, 19:17
It's the implication - an "unsaved wound" occurs immediately after saves have been taken. A "wound" could be wounds after saves or wounds that have been 'multiplied' magically.
Both The LM magic items above, state "unsaved wound" implying that they act simultaneously when the wound is inflicted and not one after another. This is also consistent with the use of magic items during the combat phase - e.g. dwarf weapon runes act simultaneously unless otherwise stated.


I don't agree with your final statement only because the Blade of Realities does not double the wounds caused against demons. The book clearly states that it does 2 for 1. then the Bane head doubles all wounds caused.

In a pinch I would take the 6 route to prevent my opponent from going nuts as I gank his demon lord, but in truth I think the former poster is right and that it should do 8.

DeathlessDraich
05-12-2006, 20:11
The book clearly states that it(the Blade) does 2 for 1. then the Bane head doubles all wounds caused.


The 2 magic items are listed separately and the rules definitely do not state that Bane follows the Blade.
However combat attacks by a model are simultaneous.

TheWarSmith
05-12-2006, 20:20
exactly.

I think multiplying already multiplied numbers will lead to problems.

I would always multiply the base for each item, and treat them independently.

In this case it's easy because both are 2x multipliers, but imagine if one was at 3x and another was 2x, then you'd have a whole argument of "which do i take first"

Honestly, you just caused 6 wounds to a daemon. Unless you're facing a GuO one, it's gonna be dead anyway.

NakedFisherman
05-12-2006, 20:22
*Sigh*

It's not very difficult -- all wounds are doubled. These are then doubled again according to the rules for the Bane Head. It would be silly to presume that the Bane Head works 'first' since it implies otherwise, the rules make no mention of applying it 'first', and it is necessary for functionality that all wounds caused are doubled after they're already caused and not before they're caused.

Please stop making up rules.

TheWarSmith
06-12-2006, 01:07
the point is that you're doubling already multiplied wounds, which really isn't the spirit of it. You take the base wounds, apply each item exclusively, then add the wounds together.

I'm not "making up rules". I'm interpreting them to be the most fair possible.

NakedFisherman
06-12-2006, 02:49
the point is that you're doubling already multiplied wounds, which really isn't the spirit of it.

What do you mean it's not 'the spirit of it'?

Of course you're doubling already doubled wounds -- the Bane Head's rules say to!

Sashu
07-12-2006, 03:55
Looking to how this is handeled on hte 4ok side of things, where this issue comes up rather often, doubling something tiwce, triples it, so you would only score 3 wounds for each actually inflicted.

T10
07-12-2006, 07:44
And in Inquisitor you use straight-forward multiplication: 1 x2 x2 = 4

-T10

DeathlessDraich
07-12-2006, 08:01
Of course you're doubling already doubled wounds -- the Bane Head's rules say to!

Bane's Head rules do not state "double already doubled wounds".
It states "unsaved wounds are doubled".

What this means exactly and how it relates to this question is not stated in the rules. An interpretation is required. My approach is always to base the interpretation on all the relevant rules:

1) Your interpretation presupposes a sequence but Warsmith and I feel there is no sequence in a model's combat attacks. They are simultaneous.
2) A further indication is the word 'unsaved' and the phrase 'after armour save are taken'. The 2 are identical and indicates that the doubling for each item occurs immediately after failed saves.

kyussinchains
07-12-2006, 09:42
both items take effect at the same time, doubling the wounds, therefore they both start with 1 wound, each doubles that inflicting 1 extra wound each per wound, giving a net gain of 4 extra wounds.

you cannot multiply multiple wounds as they do not exist yet,

for example, you score 2 wounds on a daemon with your combination, the 2 items simultaneously kick in, each doing an extra wound per wound caused, giving a net total of 6 wounds.

usually, these kinds of items are worded 'each unsaved wound becomes two wounds' implying that it does an extra wound, per wound caused.