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Da Reddaneks
05-12-2006, 18:24
With the creation of the new ork codex there is a lot of "wish list" threads being battered for new rules to be associated iwth the orks. However, this is different, and yet, of no less importantance (or lack there of). In the change from second edition to third edition the fluff of the orks changed dramatically. What aspects of the Orkiverse would you like to see addressed or changed with the new codex?

Slaaneshi Slave
05-12-2006, 18:32
Make Ork tech work because its sound again (Orks used to be able to design and make the best teleporter technology in the galaxy - because the designs had been put there by the Slann).

Bring back the fun stuff - Mad Boys, Shtock Attack Gun etc.

Reduce the need for looted kit by releasing rules/models for mini Gargants.

Bring back the clans!

Get rid of the retarded "z" everywhere. I can understand bad spelling, but putting Z in everything annoys me no end, for some reason.

Hobgoblyn
05-12-2006, 19:07
What kind of bugs me about Space Orks is that when you compare them to their fantasy counterparts...
Well, in the Fantasy game you have Trolls, Black Orcs, Savage Orcs, Normal Orcs, Hobgoblins, Night Goblins, Goblins, Gnobblars, Snotlings, Boggarts, Bogglars and dozens of clans of each and every one can be a normal, boss, big boss, warboss, etc.

40K everything is a Nob, Ork or Gretchin and there are only a whole 7 Klans (8 if you count 'pirates'). How is it with all the planets in the entire universe that Orks have so little variation compared to what they have on one world?

Slaaneshi Slave
05-12-2006, 19:10
Because they were programmed by the Old Slann to act in that way? They are not a natural race, as they are in WFB (even though there they are extraterestrial), in 40k they are genetically engineered bio weapons.

Da Reddaneks
05-12-2006, 19:47
More on orks natural aptitudes. Like something that expands on their mastery of forcefield and teleporting technology. and how they are able to take what is unsuable by other races and turn it into whatever they need like the ultimate versions of McGyver.

More on their "genetic disposition" to being the ultimate survivor species. Forinstance, "waaargh da orks" it explains that orks who become infested with tryanid DNA become genestealers initially but the ork DNA reassurtes itself and after four generations becomes dominate again and what you basically have is an ork again. Perhaps more on how even genestealers cannot fully absorb ork dna. A really good tie in to this would be that hive fleet splinter of leviathian that is trying to invade octavius space.

More on the brain boyz / old ones. Something that unifies the ork history from 2nd to third. Forinstance, more on the "krork" and their battle with the nycrontyr.

Diomedes
05-12-2006, 20:45
I'd like to see more on them being the ultimate survivor species too! for a species that if united could over run the entire universe, is 2 metres tall and only gets bigger with age, doesn't really feel pain and heals a lot quicker than a human, I find it annoying that all they play on in the fluff is the humour aspect.

Yes I think Ork humour lifts the general doom and gloom that is the 40k Universe but the fluff should support the fact that they are actually a huge danger to mankind and give us more info.

EVIL INC
05-12-2006, 20:49
I would personally like to see a return to the older fluff where they did not reproduce by spores and thier brain boyz were the snotlings before thier societies collapse.

Kage2020
05-12-2006, 21:02
The obvious ones that springs to mind include:

Get rid of the sporing.
Get rid of the idea that their technology works because they believe it does.
Remove Gork and Mork as the ultimate protection against Chaos such that Chaos is truly a universal corruptor. (There is a difference between natural state and putting into place protections.)

There the most obvious that spring to mind.

Kage

Pacific
05-12-2006, 21:08
1) Some 'orc kustom packs'. Full of different bits and bobs that can be used to customise the army. These can be things like snottlings/gretchins to stick on the side of vehicles, spiky bits, variety of ammo and guns, different parts for vehicles etc.

2)I know its not going to happen, but I would love a return to the 'comedy' looking orcs. The 40k universe is already dark enough, and the orcs with their humerous expressions were a bit of light relief.

3) Bring back the shokk-attack gun and other wacky orc technology.

4) Bring back the rule that let you have as many orcs crammed into a battlewagon as you could physically fit onto the model (but also the rule that if the models fall off they actually count as falling off in the game). I once remember a guy who had painstakingly stacked about 1ft and a half of orcs high, then tripped while he was moving the model ...I want to see this happen again :p

5) More emphasis on freebooters and 'space orc pirates'. Especially, if they released a new orc wearing a pirate hat.

Kage2020
05-12-2006, 21:39
Over the years, the sporing has become less of annoyance, so that could if it must stay. The other stuff is another matter, though. :D

Either that or make them have flowers on their heads as indicating their true origins! :rolleyes:

Kage

Da Reddaneks
05-12-2006, 21:50
i pretty much agree with nurglich on the sporing issue. its makes them more than just green oomies. It adds to their nature as a xenos. I hope they bring the second edition fluff, such asbrain boyz, in line with what they have done in third edition. Orks are, under third editiion, the ultimate survivor species designed by an ancient race far more advanced than anything now in the 40k universe. But they were designed with a true achilies heel. The flaw of being unable to organize unless confronted with an apparent threat.

i look at them, in many ways, as the ultimate spoiler in the galaxy. they will never take over the galaxy themselves but they will ensure that no one else does either because if anyone gets "too big" the orks organize and knock them off their pedestal . I think this probably fits well into the Necroyntry issue and maybe even why the tryanids have never taken over the galaxy when they have been in the galaxy far before leviathan or kraken appeared.

i do hope they will expand some on the nid and necron facets of their origins. there is a lot of potential there.

Kage2020
05-12-2006, 22:00
Although against the argument that suggests that sporing makes them less "green oomies", one might parallel it with the idea that there is uniqueness merely for the sake of it... ;)

Kage

EVIL INC
06-12-2006, 01:23
I say if they keep the being mushrooms then give them mushroom attributes, roots, fronds the works. Otherwise make them as they were originally intended a green life form that has nada in comman with humans except for having similer body parts.

Outlaw289
06-12-2006, 01:37
I'd like for sporing to be eliminated. Seems odd there are no she Orks.

I'd like to see a little more comedy to them. Not so overt, but just their outlook on death and combat and weapony. Think how the Orks are in the Dawn of War cutscenes.

Zedric
06-12-2006, 03:31
You people want to go back to Orks with marsupial pouches? There were never she-Orks.

Sporing for the win, people. :D It's nice to see a race with a fundamentally different biology - their symbiosis with the fungus/algae is both highly interesting and under-utilized.

Despite my devotion to the Ork Bible (Waaargh! The Orks, Freebooterz, 'Ere We Go), the whole sporing thing is one of the best developments Ork fluff has ever had. Orks that go back to feral worlds when they're too old to fight and breed Ork whelps in the skinflap on their stomach just doesn't do it for me. I mean, honestly, 'too old to fight'?

Likewise, the Brain Boyz legend did nothing but reinforce the image of Ork as dumb brutes who had something good going for them, let the chance slip through their fingers, and are forever cursed to stupidity. And since we now know that Orks are no less intelligent than any human (another good development), it just doesn't fit the picture.

That said, I also appreciate the serious savage image the Orks have now, but it certainly couldn't hurt to add back the wacky. Just not the green-skinned clowns of the first two editions. There has to be a happy medium in there.

Hellebore
06-12-2006, 04:28
That's the thing about fungi, they don't use differentiated tissues. All fungal organs are simply different configurations of the same tissue. This means two things: the first is that many organs we commonly associate with fungus are un-necessary for motile fungi, and the second is that we have a very good explanation for the natural toughness of the Ork as Ork tissue would act like rather like stem-cells in that over time a transplant would reconfigure itself to fit where-ever on the Ork it was transplanted to. But it doesn't take it over-board, as a lack of functioning brain organ or heart organ will still ensure the death of the entire organism, so although transplanting other orkoid brains into surplus bodies would be feasible, transplanting a hand from the same Ork into its brain-case would result in the death of that Ork. Bones and similar structures can be simply explained as bones, structures extruded and supported by surrounding tissue.
I think that this could be best accomodated by openly acknowledging the role of perspective in the background material on Orks. From the perspective of their enemies they're vicious bestial thugs, and from their own perspective they have a very dark sense of humour. If that makes them clowns, then it makes them the sort of clowns that get a kick out of the old ultra-violence.

Remember that clowns, back in the day, simply referred to any rustic or unsophisticated schmuck that could be the butt of wit. And I can imagine modern day rednecks are pretty fun to laugh at until they shove the broken end of a bottle in your face and then take you out, beat you unconscious, and leave you tied to a fence until you die. Sure, the accent is hilarious so long as you don't have to live with them.
The symbiosis bit is neither interesting nor under-utilized. If it wasn't used at all it would be utilized properly. The fact is that any such DNA could not work, and that fact is rather integral to the story of how DNA was discovered. It's like one of those old pictures of winged dragons where such an animal doesn't work but the map-maker had to put something there to distract from the uninformativenss of the map. The only thing that information tells us is that whatever Anzion is saying about Orks he's talking total bilge. It's like a great big signpost in the fluff saying: "By the by, science ain't an exact science with Imperial Techno-Magi, take with a 22kg lump of rock salt".

The reason I like sporing is that it links Ork aggression to Ork reproduction in an alien fashion to Humanity. A successful Ork population is one in which the amount of violence, and thus reproduction, is maximized. It fits well with their 'natural' state being one of constant warfare - not every minute of every day, but the kind of sub-conscious stimulus that influences their actions. They wouldn't have the same sort of instincts that a sexually reproducing organism like Humanity would have so the kind of tactics that would so mystify Imperial enemies would make perfect sense to an Ork. After all, why not throw every able-bodied Ork you have under your command at the opposing trenches? If they get through, all the better, and if they don't, well, in a couple of months a new generation will be ready for the next big push. They'd probably consider the generals of WWI tactical geniuses since so far as they know, while bullets don't produce themselves, 'umies do. And after all, ain't 'umies just like pink grots? It's a reasonable economic analysis innit?

Lichens, for example, involve a symbiotic relationship between algae and fungi that involves nothing more than two organisms mixing tissue rather than mixing DNA or some other nonsense. Lichens reproduce by landing spores where compatible algal cells are found, or by enlarging the current fungal mass and its associate colonies of algal cells. But if you want Orks to be fungus and reproduce by spores then all that blather about algae is not only superfluous, but akin to representing Orks by painting Men green. A cock and bull story about intermingling plant and animal DNA in a fungal organism is the kind "like on Earth, but alien" kind of thing that Star Trek does.

If you want to read a great take on alien fungus read Piers Anthony's early novel "Omnivore" which is also a great take on ecology and art.

I've always looked at the algal symbiosis and additional DNA as a version of mitochondria, where the DNA is in the cell but seperate to it. In the case of the algal DNA, it is inside the nucleus as opposed to in an organelle in the cytosol.

Hellebore

EVIL INC
06-12-2006, 04:33
Piers Anthony is one of the great minds of the age in the fantasy/sci fi genre and the author I originally associated myself with as a reader.
However, I must still maintain my differing opinion on what the fluff of the roks should be. That matters little as we can both provide "evidence" and valid points of view to support our desires. Again though, we must remember that this is only conjecture as what we desire has no effect on what shall come.

Adlan
06-12-2006, 05:43
Bring back Diggers, and Shoutaz and Brewers ect.

I really liked them, they made it so much more belivable that orks were the ultimate survivors. A purely fighting force can only weild weapons, but Orks. Land orks on a barran desert, and they will make them.

Hellebore
06-12-2006, 05:48
It depends what is meant by symbiotic DNA. Because DNA cannot perform any function that could even be INFERED to be symbiotic. My understanding of the statement was that the DNA was symbiotic with the cell, in that it was independent of the cellular genome, which is what a mitochondria is.

And there is plenty of room in the nucleus for extra strands, the nucleolus takes up very little space. The simplest example is Down's syndrome, the addition of a 3rd 21st chromosome doesn't burst the nucleus.

And there are plenty of plants with hundreds of chromosomes. Of course, they aren't all the same length, but a horse has 64 chromosomes in a mammalian cell, so I can't see how additional 'symbiotic' DNA could possibly affect it.

Hellebore

Hellebore
06-12-2006, 08:01
I agree that a 3 stranded dexoyribose won't work, because the chemical compositon precludes any bonding of that type.

But then the chances of the genome of an alien using the same chemical composition of Terran life is ridiculously small anyway.

However, I was lead to believe by the Anzion 'study' that the algal DNA isn't a whole seperate nucleolus within the nucleus, but simply extra chromosomes.

Using the arguement of impossible or pointless I don't think works, for the previous reasons (you can't get trimeric deoxyribose, nor is there much likelyhood of aliens with identical genomic chemistry), so the absence of such a structure in life has no bearing if orks also possess other things considered impossible.

The picture of the orkoid DNA strand has a 3rd strand wrapping around the others, which doesn't indicate a secondary nucleolus. It certainly produces hydrogen bonding problems, and would prevent histones spooling.

But I'm not exaclty sure what the problem of additional DNA is.


Hellebore

Hellebore
06-12-2006, 10:20
Well, if the diagram is what it's labelled to be then it won't work for Terran DNA even if it just extra chomosomes as it purports to show an "Ork - algae DNA strand". As I suggested there's only so many organic molecules in the universe and there's a reason why deoxyribose is used to store genetic information: it has the peculiar chemical characteristics necessary for storing large amounts of information in a very small space. I don't think there's an analagous polymer known to man. If you're going to have a genetic code then you've going to be using either DNA or an analog. That is, if you're using 'genetic code' to mean genetic code. Hence the chance of an alien's genome using the same chemical composition as Terran life is only as ridiculously small as the probability of that alien existing in the first place.


The problem comes from I think, the overuse of 'DNA' to equal 'genome' which it doesn't. The image certainly doesn't look like any DNA molecule I've ever seen. There are however certain hydrocarbons capable of storing information. Indeed, the meer shape of a protein is enough to code information, or rather cause an effect. So-called 'organic' computers are an example of this, and my supervisors are looking into other 'organic' means for storing information that does not rely on DNA, or RNA. Stability is the key, and there are many stable hydrocarbons.



When we're discussing impossibilities it helps to distinguish between what has actually proved impossible and what we merely predict to be impossible. So if Orks possess properties or attributes that we previously thought were impossible, it doesn't speak against the fact that those properties are actually impossible to have. It does speaks against our standards of knowledge, except in fictional circumstances (ah fiction, the black holes of semantics...). That's because impossible things can happen in fiction, and should happen depending on the aesthetic work that they do. Therefore an argument that Ork DNA described as 'symbiotic' in any interestingly alien sense from the fact that such DNA is impossible works fine so long as we don't confuse the two senses of impossible and remember that we're talking about fiction.


Well, I've looked in the Anzion article in the ork codex, and it only uses the word 'symbiotic' (which seems to be the term that has caused a majority of your disagreement) thusly:


"Every orkoid is a symbiosis of two biologies within a single structure. As well as a standard gene spiral [see fig 453/b] (the supposed orkoid 'DNA') every orkoid also possesses a spiral of an algal/fungal base. The standard genetic structure of an orkoid remains essentially the same as that of man, in that it dictates the majority of the creature's form and biological processes. however it is the plant-like secondary structure, which gives orks their resilience to damage and is the key to understanding the procreative cycle.

The algal cellular subsystem is comparable in many ways to the human bloodstream. It is bound within their anatomical structure at a molecular level and works alongside the standard genetic and biological processes."

This is almost all of Anzion's article that deals in any way with the 'biology' of the genome and its nature. If one pushes the pseudoscience out of the way it certainly doesn't indicate the algal strand is living 'symbiotically' with the orks own genes, merely that they both exist within the same organism.




So the problems of additional Ork DNA are as follow:

(1) If it works as we understand DNA and analogs to work, and is just extra chromosomes (even in an additional nucleus), then it's no more symbiotic than any two actually co-existing strands of DNA. Some special and highly abnormal use of the term 'symbiosis' is being employed.


As the previous quote from the ork codex shows, this appears to be the most likely answer. And to be fair, it wasn't written in the codex that the genomes are coexisting symbiotically, that is more of a throw away line that fans use.



(2) If it works in a multiple nucleoli configuration, or some other abnormal configuration, then it doesn't actually work and is impossible where the DNA we talk about in the fiction resembles the DNA we encounter in reality.


Doesn't seem likely, the information doesn't say they use multiple nucleoli. Of course it doesn't say they don't, but the article is a 'positive' one in that it is ADDING things to canon, and when you add things you tend to only do so if they exist, thus I would favour that they don't in fact use multiples as the article would actually say they did.




There's two ways out, interestingly the opposite of what we would do in science where we would either need to revise our theory or obtain more information using that theory:

(1) Accept that Ork DNA is impossible. This is so-called "magical explanation": We accept that the meaning or symbolism of that impossibility is sufficiently important (or beautiful or cool or spiritual) that it's an acceptable abuse of terms.

(2) Change the way Ork DNA is talked about so that it better resembles what we mean when we use terms like "DNA" and "genome". Obviously this is where versimilitude helps to add that dash of local colour and the appearance of depth that would improve the Ork background (obviously where we hold detail and depth to be valuable in describing the backgrounds of fictional species).

Incidentally if an alien uses a different sort of chemistry for coding its genome, it seems kind of odd to still call it DNA. Maybe "OGC2", for "ork genetic coding chemical".

I've never liked it when they refer to tyranids consuming DNA, because I don't believe that every alien encountered would have a genome consisting of deoxyriboses or their derivatives. The word 'genome' however, is fine, as it applies only to a set of information coding for an organism, not necessarily that it is made from DNA.

Ork DNA may very well be impossible, but I think it has more to do with the useage of 'symbiosis' and 'DNA' than anything else.

Hellebore

Lockjaw
06-12-2006, 18:55
that's what I don't like about the whole sporing thing, it reduces orks to walking fighting fungi.

Pacific
06-12-2006, 19:05
It makes me think of Toad from Mario kart

Khaine's Messenger
06-12-2006, 19:13
There's nothing really "wrong" with it, in my opinion. It just needs to be explored a bit...the only "problem" I see, such that there is one, is that it is used almost as frequently as the "The Machine God is the Void Dragon, neener-neener-neener!" or other one-liners, and it gets kinda old after a while.

Studd_Beefpile
07-12-2006, 03:50
The obvious ones that springs to mind include:

Get rid of the sporing.
Get rid of the idea that their technology works because they believe it does.
Remove Gork and Mork as the ultimate protection against Chaos such that Chaos is truly a universal corruptor. (There is a difference between natural state and putting into place protections.)

There the most obvious that spring to mind.

Kage

Sporing eliminates a lot of nastiness that would have to ensue when we considered battle crazed orcs treatment of prisoners, to say nothing of the fluff problem that female orcs create. It also fits with the notion that they were created as a warrior race by the Old Ones. What better way to get warriors than by creating a race that literally grows into them from nothing.

As for removing gork and mork and faith powered technology, both of those ideas are consistent with the greater metaphysics of the galaxy. I'd be interested to see what you would replace them with. All that Gork and Mork belief must be something (The big reason I'm on the same boat with you on the Illuminati/Sensi is it cleverly deals with all of that Emperor belief) doing something to the warp, and if its doing something to the warp, it must have some effect on the real world.

Khaine's Messenger
07-12-2006, 08:54
Sporing eliminates a lot of nastiness that ould have to ensue when we considered battle crazed orcs treatment of prisoners

In the sense that it neatly avoids the issue of sexual humor, maybe. The first time I got a dose of that with regards to Orcs was the novel Grunts, and it quickly became almost unbearable, so I can see where you're going with this....


What better way to get warriors than by creating a race that literally grows into them from nothing.

It also emphasizes the notion that they were a stopgap, as suggested by the Necron codex, to prevent the C'tan and the Necrons from winning while they were developing the Eldar to greater heights of power. Which is amusing, considering the previous editions and the Brainboyz background (Orks themselves destroy the Brainboyz, iirc) in conjunction with the supposed reasons that even the Necrontyr looked upon the Old Ones with disgust in the first place.


As for removing gork and mork and faith powered technology, both of those ideas are consistent with the greater metaphysics of the galaxy. I'd be interested to see what you would replace them with.

I see no real reason Ork technology needs this "psychic lube" business to force it to work. There's been plenty of instances sprinkled around the place where Ork tech works reasonably well (albeit ham-fistedly because it was built with all the lack of frailties the Ork physiology possesses in mind) without Orks around. If you want genetic memory or madcap inventors I'll give you both, but the idea that the Waagh! or some other ambient psychic field turns their guns from nonfunctional or not-quite-functional lumps of metal into threatening firearms is just lame. I'd personally prefer Ork technology that works because mekboyz and other oddboyz with related specialties were designed to figure that sort of thing out; taking things apart and putting them back together again with reasonable functional fidelity regardless of materials, almost like human STC (and better still).

Because industry (especially others, ie slaves, doing it) isn't something that is beyond their cultural understanding (after all, da boys is da biggest business 'dere is). Because they were manufactured with war in mind and should have more than a vague idea about that sort of "devil's arithmetic" from the moment they're spat out of their alien womb or pass through the Ork equivalent of puberty. I like Orks to represent the monstrous and inhuman side of industry, and plugging "it must be magic" into the simplest of devices (as opposed to warp engines or teleporters) just feels wrong.

So "psychic lube" and "it works because they believe it does" are just non-starters for me, because I see no need for it.


All that Gork and Mork belief must be something

That's what the Waaagh! and all the powers that it grants is all about. The abililty to guide whole masses of Orks together in a tide of green, not just on the battlefield but in deep space. When people say that it's a miracle that the Orks haven't all united in a Waaagh to purge all space of other races, it's the Waaagh they hear of and know fear. That horrible phenomenon that does link Orks together when the stars are right....

Zedric
07-12-2006, 15:11
I just love that the in-depth discussion scared off the inane comments that I fully expected to read here.

Here's a little excerpt of fluff from the earliest days. From "Ork Physiology"...


The green complexion of Ork kind is due to the symbiotic green algae contained in their skin cells. This relationship has been in existence since the dawn of orkoid evolution. Even the Brainboyz of old owed their green coloration to this phenomenon, and purposely bred it into the Orks and Gretchin. It is simply another aspect of the symbiotic relationship enjoyed between the Ork races and fungus, which takes many forms.

The epidermal algae endows the surface of the Orks' skin with a natural polymer (plastic). This gives the skin a strong, waxy texture similar to the rubbery leaves on some tropical plants, and endows it with great properties of strength and resilience. As the Ork grows older, the algae grows thicker and rougher, giving older Orks their characteristic scabby and gnarled appearance.

Just some food for thought in the thoroughly fascinating discussion. :D

Zapata
07-12-2006, 21:35
Just one really, take away that d*mn fungus crap:confused: The stupidest thing ever created by GW, well one of the stupidest things atleast ;)

Tehkonrad
01-07-2007, 10:18
i love that fungus crap it was GWs best idea ever (after the orks themselves) come on they are an ALIEN RACE that sporing thing characterises them
other than that, more emphasis on the smaller greenskins, bring back the shokk gun :D

Tanith Ghost
01-07-2007, 13:13
Get a big ol choopa and bash any 'umie who brings up real science in a fictional setting. I don't care 'how it works in real life'. I want zappy laser that fry holes in planets by sheer orkyness. I want hilarious squig weaponz. I want a list of clans as long as my arm. I want looted tanks of every description. I want my WAAAAGH! Bad moons with mega 'eavy armor, blood axes with stolen eldar tech, snakebits with boarboyz, even stormboyz taking Schola progenum classes to learn marching and disipline because they're defying their elder orks.

Iracundus
01-07-2007, 13:57
The potential fallibility of the Ork race as a whole. No race in 40K should be assured of victory or vice versa be doomed beyond glimmer of hope. The Eldar got Ynnead in the last edition so that there is something they are working towards. Likewise, the Necrons have the Great Work they are aiming towards but which others can thwart (and which they did thwart on Medusa V). The Orks may have been crafted to be survivors and they have certainly succeeded in doing so despite their constant infighting, but I'd like there to be some hint that just maybe their survival isn't 100% guaranteed (particularly in light of the recent awakening Necrons and the new Tyranid threat).

Getifa Ubazza
01-07-2007, 13:58
I would like the orks in general to go back to there 2nd ed. stat-line, although i do like the way the current fluff is going.

Templar Ben
01-07-2007, 14:58
I would like to see them more Mad Max. Well actually more like the gang in Mad Max 2 (The Road Warrior in the States). They have this ability to pick up discarded junk and get those things to work together to make something much more dangerous.

TheSonOfAbbadon
01-07-2007, 15:23
First, change the spelling back to Orc, or perhaps refer to them as the Orkin [Ork kin] or Krorks.

Then, make them more sensible. Less of this 'comic relief' crap, at the moment they have very little organisation, they're all gibbering idiots, and they can't spell.

Make them kind of like Feudal Japan, give them a Samurai feel, a feeling of honour. Design their own language for them, including suitable confusing glyphs. Make them more religious, including blood rituals and, perhaps, slave sacrifices.

And make new plastic vehicle models! The Orks on the vehicles are teeny tiny! Make it look more uniform, more like the Orks know what they're doing.

chris.seraphim
01-07-2007, 17:11
I'm not sure whats happened to Orks in the eight years or so since I last paid any attention to them but I always saw them like this.

Ultimate survivor race, they can exist on no food, and eat almost anything anyway. Bigger, stronger and faster than a man and they don't feel pain.
Orks LOVE to fight - but this urge has differing symptoms across the species.
Orks are almost like a human id - the inner child, and they like nothing better than smashing things up, making loud noises etc.
Orks get bigger, tougher and smarter as they get older - so the ones that live longgest become Warbosses like Ghasghkull or Nazdreg.
Orks have a pack like hierarchy, obeying, without question, a bigger tougher smarter Ork.

Gretchin/Grots are a semi-symbiotic race designed to be subservient to the Orks, and do their bidding.
They also feel no pain, but are habitually scared of everythung - thyre usually just a lot MORE scared of the Orks!

However, even though Orks seem completely unorganised and childlike, there are a few things, programmed in by the Brain Boys (Old Ones) that make them a valid, intergalactic threat and that is the below...
Mekboys - Orks who have an innate urge to tinker with machinery & stuff, and have an inbuilt affinity with it. These guys make things like teleporters, guns etc. because they can, and because they want to - Mekboys would be bullied by most Orks, cause they tend to be smaller (geeks if you will) but Warbosses protect them, as they are smart enough to see the value in what they do. Mekboys also have retinues of Grots/Gretchin who assist them, as their quicker minds (than the average Ork boy) and smaller starure is better for tech tasks. Gretchin like being apprenticed to a Mek as they treat them better than most Orks, feeding them well and kicking them less. etc.
Wyrdboys - Orks who are natural psykers and draw on the Waaagh! energy created by an Ork Warband, and can direct it as attacks, etc. They are a bit mental, and would usually be bullied (by a dumb Ork, willing to risk being fried to a cinder by a psybolt!) but are also protected by the Warbosses.
Drillboys (or a new name) - Orks with a genetic predisposition to be well organised and not abuse their equiptment. They tend to band together as a defense against all the other Orks, although they too recieve protection from the Warbosses. BUt less protection, as Warbosses tend to find them annoying. Their gear tends to be in better condition than other Orks etc.
Stormboys - Orks who are nuts enough to try anything the Meks will give them - they get kitted out with jump packs, Shokk Attack Guns, all the nutsest gear that most Orks shy away from, cause it's onje thing to die, it's another to spend your time covered in Squigs!

Orks start off as normal Boys, but as they survive and gain experience, they get bigger, stronger and darker and become Nobs, Nobs that survive for years become Warbosses (once they supplant the old Warboss through 'battlefield promotion' or by caving his head in.

Some Orks like to fight by making big bangs - these Orks carry heavy weapons.
Some Orks like to fight at high speed - these Orks get on motorbikes, trikes etc.
Some Orks like to get into the fight hand to hand etc.
These tendencies are extremely prevalent in each clan, for example a Goff army will be based on close combat Boys, but not restricted to it, a Evil Suns clan will tend towards bikes etc. and a Deathskulls army will tend towards heavy weapons.

These tendencies could be pushed in the Codex like this.
Goffs - 3 compulsory troop choices
Evil Suns - 2 compulsory fast attack choices
Deathskulls - 2 compulsory heavy weapons choices
Bad Moons (rich) - cheaper wargear - higher points cost for troops (less guys, better kitted up...)
Snakebites (feral) - wargear more expensive or not available, Boys cheaper (lots of boys, less gear)
You get the idea.
basically, you can run a straight Ork army as your personal made up Clan or use the tendencies in the list to run a Suns, Goff force or whatever.

Make the Orks less silly, but just as fun, and just as deadly as other armies.
A pint should be made that if th Orks ever got their stuff together they could go toe to toe with the Imperium, and major Waaaghs, and persistent Ork Empires are a serious threat, just as much as any Black Crusade or Tyranid Hive Fleet.

I may have more. What do y'all think?

Tanith Ghost
01-07-2007, 17:21
In a word- YES! Bring on da orkses! This is the primary reason I love orks.
The kick ass in a serious no-nonsense way and stil manage to cram in tones of fun, nonsense and other squig based foolery.

TheSonOfAbbadon
01-07-2007, 18:12
The kick ass in a serious no-nonsense way

In your opinion, I find them fething silly. They should be made more serious, less stupid.

Tanith Ghost
01-07-2007, 18:15
Go play chaos or bugs if you want serious. 'Serious' can kiss my ass concerning orks. Orkses is orkses, and thankfully, GW got it right. They are a threat, no doubt, but as an army on the table, they ought to be great fun to play. Right now they do that. Anything else is for the birds.

VanHel
01-07-2007, 19:15
Bring back Ork Kulture! I want all the crazy stuff from previous editions back as well as all kinds of crazed contraptions that are hella killy, but might blow and destroy a chunk of your army. Make it random and fun and as lethal to the enemy as it is to the orks.

MadDogMike
01-07-2007, 19:22
Personally I love the sporing thing, not only as a touch of "they're aliens!" but what it means for them as ultimate survivors. By sporing to reproduce they not only easily pump out huge hordes of orks (something that becomes damn hard to explain with normal breeding, but if fighting INCREASES your breeding rate...) but they also become an insidious infection. You can't just shoot every greenskin running around to clear them out, sooner or later more will sprout and pick right back up where they left off. Requiring pretty much scorched earth tactics to remove orks from a world once they've been there long enough is a great idea.

As for the psychic thing, while I think it would be better to say their tech doesn't REQUIRE psychic powers to work (though it might be good fluff to say some of their more amazing/"How the hell did they do that?" tech does and I still think it's the best explanation for "red ones go faster!"), I certainly wouldn't change much otherwise. I always read the Krorks as being released late in the war as a tool against CHAOS more than just the Necrons, back when all the nastiness in the Warp the other Old One creations stirred up came out and attacked both sides. Having their own unified group conciousness makes sense as something to protect them from such things and keep the race as a whole moving in a unified direction even when everything else about them should make them fractured and weak. Besides, if they're as vulnerable to Chaos as any other race you have to come up with some excuse why they all aren't Khorne worshippers (or Nurgle going by orks as infection/survivors).

History-wise, it might be worth specifically stating the Brain Boyz were killed out by the Necrons/Enslavers/whatever as an attempt to cripple the orks, only to fail as the Brain Boyz put all their tech knowledge into the ork race as a whole. Better than some random fate taking out the Brain Boyz, and it would explain why the orks survived the war if the enemy assumed that by killing the Brain Boyz the orks would disintegrate.

Humor-wise, I think it's worth stepping up the humor value a bit, but very carefully. Orks should be funny as hell if watched in isolation but not funny if they're attacking YOU. So a detached observer could laugh at how they do things, but someone with a frenzied snotling suddenly ported inside their vehicle or being hurled miles away by a droppa lifta most likely is NOT laughing. They should be funny, but never a "safe" funny. But don't dump the humor overall; 40K becomes a parody of itself if everything is grim and serious, and if you're going to inject humor into the setting it's hard to beat using the guys whose reaction to "In the Grim Darkness of the Future There is Only War" is "All RIGHT!!" as the source :D.

Born Again
03-07-2007, 06:26
I hope sporing stays around. Ok, so in "real world science" it's not the most perfect theory, but they're ALIENS! Everything we know about genetic science is based on terrestrial lifeforms, not genetically engineered uber-warriors. As said, it makes sense, when the old ones were designing the orks, they wouln't want them wasting time making babies when they could be killing Necrontyr.
Funny orks? What, exactly, is funny about a race bred to spend it's every waking moment being the ultimate killing machine? Sure, I like the idea of unstable technology and seeing a Mek's kustom gun blowing up in his face. But I don't want to see the orks treated like comic relief. I believe the games motto is "in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war", not "there is only war and sitcoms", although the latter might be slightly more terrifying.
Ork Technology: I do kinda like the idea of psychically driven technology, TO A POINT. At the end of the day, a gun will not fire if it has no bullets in it. However, remembering that the average ork is a lot more psychically charged than the average member of other races, I can believe his red-painted buggy goes faster because he believes it. Would be good to see the Mek's responsible for more... I'm sure they could take on the best the Adeptus Mechanicus has to offer... but still having a bit of ork mindedness in the tech.

heretics bane
03-07-2007, 16:50
Get rid of the spore re-production fluff its really stupid there not potato people

kikkoman
03-07-2007, 20:29
return them to Rogue Trader in fluff. Just read it, and it is goddamn amazing.


Orks in top hats, yes
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1393/707912441_7490ed00d7_o.jpg

Temmy
03-07-2007, 20:38
The potential fallibility of the Ork race as a whole. No race in 40K should be assured of victory or vice versa be doomed beyond glimmer of hope.

Their fallibility is that they will never be more than what they are. If Humans survive their transformation into a psychic species, they will have transcended their limits and become something far greater. But Orks will always be the beer swilling choppa swinging greenskinned psychopaths we all know and love. They will never become something other than what they were designed to be..a vast tide of green meatshields.

Born Again
04-07-2007, 09:28
Get rid of the spore re-production fluff its really stupid there not potato people

I don't want to start any arguements or anything, but just try and consider how sensible are female orks?

pookie
04-07-2007, 10:07
I don't want to start any arguements or anything, but just try and consider how sensible are female orks?

i always thought they were Asexual, and didnt have male/female members of the species? although i dont know lots about Ork fluff.

Brother Siccarius
04-07-2007, 10:10
Keep sporing, it makes them unique in their own way and still maintains the idea that they are the ultimate weapon. It also explains the presence of the fungus which has constantly popped up in their background. It was a very interesting idea to have them spore instead of be born in the usual way. Being born in the usual way means two things:
A) Somewhere out there there's a female/birth-giving version of Orks that will most likely have to stop fighting when the little Orks are being born (And that just ain't orky to stop fighting).
b) There are little orks somewhere, and Ork society is too cut-throat to have anything fairly defenseless like little orks running around.
Instead it fits them better to have them pop right up out of the ground and "come back fer annuver go!" right as they come out.

Ork speaking is perfectly fine, Orks have massive underbites, tusks, and thick, muscular skulls and jaws. I certainly wouldn't expect their speaking to be perfectly understandable or our idea of normal. Simplicity in speaking doesn't mean anything about intelligence or coolness (some of the coolest villians or heroes almost never say a word).

Keep them essentially as they are, but expand on the Ork race(s) and bring some of the old society members back.

I'd like to see the current list merged with the feral ork list and speed freak list to give some interesting options and combinations. But I'd also like to see Squiggoths come into the fluff a bit more, and more on the current advances of the orkoid race in both Armageddon and around the Eye of Terror. We've proven that we can fight, now let's hear about what happened with it. Tau got an entire sphere of expansion from their efforts, I'd like to see the Green Kroosade get us some benefits, like the guns we were promised by Abbadon to get us in the war.

Adra
04-07-2007, 10:20
Seems odd there are no she Orks.


Well...there are no he-Orks either are there. Orks reproduce a-sexualy so they have one gender and its not male or female.

I love the spoor idea, it fits perfectly. Like a virus they swamp planets with there massive numbers and all the time they are sowing their seed. They make planet fall, and start to create reinforcments the moment they land. Its the perfect form of reproduction for war as orks fight it. I love the vision of the waaah marching with a dark cloud of spores surrounding the horde for miles and miles in all directions. A steaming, smoking wave of horror boiling across the land in a pure river of orkness.

I actually love the current ork. The fluff is pretty cool and i like how they are treated in the books. Often they are controled and manipulated by others, but its tugging a tigers tail for at any moment they can turn. Nice and random, as orks should be. A massive power in the galexy that does not really know what its doing....

I would like to see more tech return but i would like to keep the idea of ignorance the orks have for how they make it. I dont want to see really clever orks or orks that are not mad as hell.

For me i always referance a line from a book (cant remember which now) that for me typifies how orks should work. An ork roc that has tractor beam towers on it that rip massive chunks of the rock off and throw them at the enemy....more of that please.