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View Full Version : How tecnological advanced should warhammer be?



dirach.
06-12-2006, 11:45
Every thread about the Empire ends up in discussing how advanced it should be. Why not take the dicussion out from these threads and discuss them here? Is rockets out of place? What about steam? Does it fit a fantasy world?

Voronwe[MQ]
06-12-2006, 11:53
It should be early renessaince-like technology, with at least the same diversity and flavour of experimental weapons etc, since the Empire becomes very interesting this way.

I voted for the second alternative.

UltimateNagash
06-12-2006, 11:55
Good thread idea. I'm actually OK with it, and am using those ideas for my Chaos Dwarf project (shameless plug :D). As long as they keep things in their place, and give things like Elves mutliple barreled rocket launchers, I'm fine.
Chaos Dwarfs: pretty safe crazy technology. The entire point of these guys is technology gone mad.
Skaven: crazy but dangerous stuff. Very cool and odd stuff not found anywhere else.
Empire: crazier than Dwarfs, but not as crazy as Skaven. Not as safe as Dwarfs.
Dwarfs: advanced, but made in a resilient way. Nothing new though, as they don't change easily. Safe

azazel_fallenangel
06-12-2006, 12:33
Skaven and Chaos Dwarves should have the wierdest and most advanced stuff, not empire, it doesn't fit them. That new rocket should definatly go to the Chaos Dwarves, they've had similar rocket type bazookas for years.

Grimmeth
06-12-2006, 12:46
But is a multi barrelled rocket launcher as advanced as a gun that fires lightning?

And while the Empire have managed to build a clockwork Horse Skaven have succesfully (well, sorta) joined 'robotics' and flesh in their Rat Ogres.

Dr Death
06-12-2006, 12:50
For me there is no specific line based on technology alone. For example i love the Steam tank and Gyrocopter but dislike the mechanical horse and rocket launcher. I suppose it's a question of balance for an army rather than applying some set historical line which cannot be crossed.

In the case of steam punk i just see it as a domineering 'kewl' theme that's been creeping in. I do not see it as being a particularly prevailent theme in the previously written background for the empire and even less so in the dwarves where there are still strong traditions of religion and superstition and who still put their faith in flesh and blood rankers. I thought what was done for the dwarves in their first army book was tremendous stuff as it reawoke the cool aspects of the grim combat orientated dwarves and because pro-active combatty dwarves were seen to be cool it encouraged players to choose those armies. The newer dwarves completely reversed that by making the 'in vogue' image of dwarves one of metal and gears and people with uncomfortably tight magnifying equipment and so champion 'gunline' type dwarf armies.

With the empire, the engineering guild certainly a presence but you also have that of the colleges of magic, the various religious cults, the electors and their state troops all of which deserve an equal (if not greater) emphesis placed on them than some gimp arsing about with equipment from the industrial revolution.

So for me, as you can see, it's not a matter of whether this that or the other individual addition is wrong, it's how it changes the way people veiw and see the army and to my eyes none of the armies GW have thus far introduced the image to have been particularly 'steam punk' to start off with.

Dr Death

Voronwe[MQ]
06-12-2006, 12:57
Hellblaster volley guns are ultra-realistic for these reasons:

1.) The 'inter-dependant' firing/crank mechanism and the natural difficulties/dangers of it which would have been seen in reality, too.
2.) The model is perfect. Although I will, if I eventually affords one, add a squareish piece of Green Stuff beneath the hammers to represent flint.
3.) As stated, it is costly and unreliable, which is only logically, and hard to maintain for obvious reasons.

Briohmar
06-12-2006, 13:05
As to technology, I thought a warpstone gatling gun was crossing the line several years ago. Warpfire throwers, poison gas globes and jezzails have been a part of the skaven since their inception as a Warhammer race. Likewise, Dwarves and Empire have had Black powder capability since 3rd or 4th edition (been so long ago, I've forgotten which it was.) The problem has become the infallibility of Black powder weapons. Handguns used to have misfires when they first came out. Cannons also could misfire, I suppose they still can but Empire engineers can stop that from happening, as can dwarven runes, so its highly unlikely in this day and age. The ratling Gun and Hellblaster being autohit, and as deadly as they are began to push the envelope. The warplightning cannon was just a revision from the doomwheel, though it became more specialized. I just think that its all going to far these days. If I wanted to play a game of 40K, I'd break out my speed freaks, but to play Fantasy, I want to maneuver my troops, and fight a battle. I don't want to have to run forward as fast as I can and hope to make it to CC before I get blown to shreds.

Sir_Turalyon
06-12-2006, 13:08
Not enough options! It should be XV-XVI century technology level. Gunpowder is oh, steam power and hellblasters are not.

Things like hellblaster or steam tank require much higher tech level then Empire displays. Let alone clockwork horses. Explanation that "it works because it's fantasy" means "it works because on warp-tainted Warhammer world things work even when they should not". Idea of powers of Chaos creepeing into Imperial society under guise of technology is great, but this influence should be hinted in the fluff.

DeathlessDraich
06-12-2006, 13:11
The 'gameplaying effects' of the Steam Tank and Gyrocopter are perfectly acceptable.
Gyrocopter - Flyer with a breath weapon
Steam Tank - Unbreakable chariot with a cannon etc.

Both 'gameplaying effects' are present in other armies except they have been given names more compatible with Warhammer Fantasy.

Similarly black powder shooting - S4 with a further -1 to armour saves is also more or less present in a different form.

These items should have been given different names to maintain the Fantasy flavour. Maybe there were problems with compatibility and fluff but I'm sure the Gyrocopter could have been a flying beast of some kind - possibly Dwarf Dragon?
Steam tank - could have been 'metal armoured chariot' or 'armoured pump wagon' - I know the names I propose sound lacklustre but something along those lines.

As for the new Rocket battery etc - thats simply an upgraded and modified repeater bolt thrower. Pigeon bomb - similarly should have been given a medieval type name.

Voronwe[MQ]
06-12-2006, 13:28
Not enough options! It should be XV-XVI century technology level. Gunpowder is oh, steam power and hellblasters are not.

Things like hellblaster or steam tank require much higher tech level then Empire displays. Let alone clockwork horses. Explanation that "it works because it's fantasy" means "it works because on warp-tainted Warhammer world things work even when they should not". Idea of powers of Chaos creepeing into Imperial society under guise of technology is great, but this influence should be hinted in the fluff.

You're wrong in this point. It is certainly possible for individuals to advance in a field of technology pretty radically compared to what we had and would see during such a 'period'. Now, of course, history does not follow a set-up line, but changes course subtly like a river, if you get the point.

feeder
06-12-2006, 13:58
I voted for "everything is ok." I hate limits, and just because our human history followed a certain 'tech-path' doesn't mean this fantasy one did.

However, I am against the current look of the newer tech. The clockwork horse looks like it came from ED-109's farm, and the rocket battery is not out of place on a WW2 battlefield. It's the sculpts that have come out of these ideas that have got my back up.

stonefox
06-12-2006, 14:07
I love my steampunk. Now, all they need are some magic-and-steam-powered mechs and we're set. :)

Mr_Bump
06-12-2006, 14:13
I agree with feeder and deathless. I don't have a problem with the technology. I like the clear differences from "history". I think the issue is as Dr Death said "Does it fit in with the army character". I'm not convinced as they were sculpted the new models do very well. But maybe they will grow on me.

TKitch
06-12-2006, 14:22
I love my steampunk. Now, all they need are some magic-and-steam-powered mechs and we're set. :)

mordheim: Clan Skyre Rat Ogre

FlameKnight
06-12-2006, 14:42
Gyrocopters are fun, mechanical horses are silly, but I voted the last option.

I do love the tanks and the gyrocopters in the fantasy setting

Stouty
06-12-2006, 17:29
I love steampunk.

It manages to capture my imagination with it's interesting "whacky" concepts and genrally fun machinary. I think GW is almost spot on with their technological levels; it's enough for steamheads like me to get what we want and those who prefer more traditional elements are served just as well.

That said the models have been a real let down for me. I was going to mount all my cavalry on clockwork horses if the model was good enough, now no one will be having one (they look to stable/reliable). The Hellstorm just looks a wee bit top heavy, hopefully if it's a nice kit conversion shall save it from looking like any recoil will topple it.

This is how I would have the hellstromn (sounds better in german I reckon)
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b312/Coffe-Monster/Emp_helstormo_lg.jpg

(just for an example of how steampunk I'm going, I'm fielding a wizard lord with a flying contraption to represent the pegasus and a guild machine gun team for the hellblaster)

Einholt
06-12-2006, 17:40
Well, whos to say that the tech empire runs cant be helped along by magic, I think as long as they keep computer systems and highly efficient projectiles out of their lines, so like not quite ww1 but hinting at it, the techs fine. After all empire is moving towards industrial and technological advancement, its not like they are legions of knights in brettonia. I dislike the mech horse not cuz its too advanced, just cuz I find its ridiculous to make a mechanical horse before a motorcycle type thing, it dint have to be a 40K bike but ca mon a horse? Anyway as far as them moving too fast, I think people are looking into our own history and thats not really gonna work because alot of our scientific advancement was hindered by religion especially the churhc in europe. As far as I know Sigmar's church doesnt oppose tech.

UltimateNagash
06-12-2006, 17:44
I think a horse is a more logical step - it would be far easier to get balanced than something on two wheels.
And they have things like the Steam Tank for wheeled stuff anyway.

TheWarSmith
06-12-2006, 17:47
I think binding a realm to a tech level is very restricting.

I personally love the REALLY broad range of tech and civilization in warhammer.

Slann mage Tokes
06-12-2006, 17:49
I voted the first option, To me fantasy means medieval,
Bows and swords, dragons and catapults,
If you want to play with no tactics and want all crazy tech,
then play 40K and stop mixing them up!
"The new Empire CODEX is coming out soon" hahahaha

darkprincewilson
06-12-2006, 17:59
I do not have a problem with anything we see in this game.

Stouty
06-12-2006, 18:31
I voted the first option, To me fantasy means medieval,
Bows and swords, dragons and catapults,
If you want to play with no tactics and want all crazy tech,
then play 40K and stop mixing them up!
"The new Empire CODEX is coming out soon" hahahaha


fan·ta·sy (făn'tə-sē, -zē) pronunciation
n., pl. -sies.

1. The creative imagination; unrestrained fancy. See synonyms at imagination.
2. Something, such as an invention, that is a creation of the fancy.
3. A capricious or fantastic idea; a conceit.
4. a. Fiction characterized by highly fanciful or supernatural elements.
b. An example of such fiction.
5. An imagined event or sequence of mental images, such as a daydream, usually fulfilling a wish or psychological need.
6. An unrealistic or improbable supposition.
7. Music. See fantasia (sense 1).
8. A coin issued especially by a questionable authority and not intended for use as currency.
9. Obsolete. A hallucination.

I read nothing about technology in there.

The reason 40k has little sympathy for tactics is not that it has guns, it is that everyone has a gun and skirmishes with no long range penalties and few movement penalties. Also skirmishing doesn't decrease your combat potential

What unit in fnatasy has a 24+" range weapon, skirmishes, ignores penalties, a descent armour save (to negate all low strength attacks) and can fight ranked up units head on? None I'll wager, you sure as heck can't cram an army with them.

When that happens it'll be 40k, until then quite yer bitchin:p

xibo
06-12-2006, 19:48
...I consider my ELVES as using more technologies than most of the 40k races...

Misfratz
06-12-2006, 20:10
The point, as far as I am concerned, is that the armies should be different to each other and they shouldn't mess too much with well-established army identities .

Someone already said that they thought Chaos Dwarfs should have had this rocket launcher, which I agree with. The rocket launcher and robo-horse aren't out of place in Warhammer just out of place in The Empire. It would even work for Chaos Dwarfs to have mechanical/golem-like "Dreadnaughts", but it doesn't mean it would be ok for the Lizardmen or Orcs.

In Warhammer all sorts of different technological levels co-exist:
Orcs - Savage Orcs are still using [u]stone axes. I guess that makes them Neolithic?
Brettonia - Medieval/Hundred Years War period.
Empire - Renaissance period.

GW can go as steam-punk as they like, as long as they use it to create an interesting and distinctive identity for the Chaos Dwarfs. They shouldn't be infecting too many other armies with it.

So... I haven't answered the poll, because whilst I'd be happy for steam-punk to be a part of Warhammer, I am vehemently opposed to the braindead "teching-up" that has been inflicted upon the Empire.

Bloodthirster90
06-12-2006, 20:38
it's called Warhammer fantasy for a reason. Because of this I voted the third option. Not because I think theres nothing they cant do for calling it fantasy, but some of the stuff they've got is well within what the army should be like. The dwarf gyrocopter is Ok in my eyes because dwarves are supposed to be mechanical genius'. Rockets are ok too. I mean, they were using fireworks for ages in china, so it's not exactly hard to pack the rockets intended for a fireworok with any kind of explosive you want.
As to stouty's definition and following comment, you say there's nothing about technology. Look at point 2. An invention surely qualifies as technology.

Braad
06-12-2006, 21:19
And you don't have to field those units...

These new units just give the option to do so, however one can theme his army just to how he likes it. To me, it just seems more variation in armies that you might encounter.
Of course, if you have to face a battery of rocket launching devices every time, thats a little less fun...

Anyway, if you ask me, it's not a bad addition. And such "fantasy" is not our history, so comparing it al the time, does not seem very logical. It does not have to follow our course of development. And things like magic can drive technological development in completely different directions than how it went past in reality. We never had anything like that. I think...

gorenut
06-12-2006, 21:22
Well<i was ok with most of it up until now. I think gyrocopters are ok... especially since its dwarfs. Pretty much I think the most "advanced" steampunk stuff should belong to non-human armies, mainly dwarfs. I think I'd rather dwarfs have the steamtank and a mechanical steed.

swordwind
06-12-2006, 22:29
I'm going to give my Empire Cannon crew a Heavy Bolter instead.

What? Its fantasy. Anything goes.

Sure theres always been subtle steampunk style units like the steamtank but they were either useless or rare beyond belief. I notice since the advent of Warmachine that the Empires technology rate has shot up...

Stouty
06-12-2006, 23:22
As to stouty's definition and following comment, you say there's nothing about technology. Look at point 2. An invention surely qualifies as technology.

That came out wrong, what I meant was that there was nothing that meant that you couldn't have technology. The post was in response to Slann Mage Tokes.

Makaber
06-12-2006, 23:47
To be honest, I find the whole debate a bit silly. The Empire is the protagonist nation in Warhammer, and its tech level defines the setting. Sure, you can argue wether or not you like it 'till you're blue in the face, but at the end of the day, it's meaningless. If you took the gyrocopter and Helblaster out of the setting, you might like it better, but it wouldn't be Warhammer anymore.

Sir_Turalyon
07-12-2006, 00:45
Well, whos to say that the tech empire runs cant be helped along by magic, I think as long as they keep computer systems and highly efficient projectiles out of their lines, so like not quite ww1 but hinting at it, the techs fine.


Except that balancing a mechanical horse on four legs requires so fast computations that only animal's brain with nervous system and modern computers can do it. You can make clockwork horse that will walk on flat surface, but to not trample when it has to go downstairs or when an Orc kicks it in the side is another story. Simplest way to do a mechanical horse is to give it two wheels, one symmetry axis, and leave balancing part to the rider.


It is certainly possible for individuals to advance in a field of technology pretty radically compared to what we had and would see during such a 'period'. Now, of course, history does not follow a set-up line, but changes course subtly like a river, if you get the point.

Yes, but some steps just can't be skipped, and some inventions are bound to revolutionise all breaches of technology. Means required for some of Empire's inventions, to be precise. Steel pans and bronze swords don't look believable. For instance, homemade steam engine is so fragile that first steam cars needed flat and steady surface to ride on - rails, or shakes killed the engine. Making off-rail steam tank requires metalurgy - and industrial precision - beyond that displayed by the Empire. If they had that metalurgy, they would not use primitive cannons and handguns. Rockets require fuel to propel them inflight. You can use gunpowder, but it won't be cost efective (gunpowder is supposed to still be expansive, and propelling a rocket requires gunpowder that can be used for cannons and hadguns witn better effect). To get rocktes that are not waste of money, you need some cheaper or better fuel - and if you have it, why limit it to rockets if you can us it to upgrade steam engines? Clockwork horse requires some driving system (or it will only realise pre-set set of motions like real clockwork manequins), and something that keeps it in balance - equivalent to gyroscope - that again requires XIX century precision, at very least. Last thing, making such inventions in isolation would require enormous resources - when you have factories, you can make pieces of mechanical horse but if you don't, cost of manufacturing pieces to thaat precision would be enormous. Why bulid a horse that costs several villages , when you can equip a unit of knights for the same money? It's one steed.

Inventions are made when they are needed, and assuming empire engineers will stumble upon something needed just for these inventions is too convinient. Example: when you notice that trees float, you bulid rafts and go fishing. When you need better fishing tool, you experiment with boats. With boats you go futher and futher. When your needs go beyong fishing, to colonization, exploration, trade and naval warfare, when you get experience with open waters, in time you develop the sail. It's unlikely that some radical individual would invent sails in raft-era - there is little need and use for it and experiments with hull shape give much greater effects. As technology of making cloth has not yet been discovered, sails require lot of leatherwork, liekly most of tribes leatherwork, to outfit one raft with sails.

It's like seting game in XX century and giving US army "primitive" power armour. Power armour (40k version) requires ceramics for armour itself, microengines, mobile power source and so on. Now, ambitious game designer might say US goverment rounded up best minds of the country and invented modern-technology equivalents - relatively strong and light space age alloys, very expansive miniature motors, power cells thet can power such armour for a while. We end up with armour that is more cumbersome (heavier plates, weaker motors), breaks often (weak motors) and need to be recharged after - say -three hours. To make things worse, precision and price of materials required means cost of equiping one trooper with such armour is geater then buying eight new tanks. Thing can be invited and described on paper, I don't thing US goverment would bother with even making one prototype. In time, when these ceramics and motors and power cells are invented - by independent people, in independent period, to serve needs of the period - project will be revived and there will be power armour.

feeder
07-12-2006, 02:31
Sir_Turalyon, that was far too sensible and rational an essay on tech development. We need to limit this discussion to "but teh chinese had the the rockets!!"

I think GW really screwed up when they officially divorced the universes. Then the goofy robo-horse could have fallen off a passing Rogue Trader.

Drogmir
07-12-2006, 04:00
personally I love the gunpowder and the steam powered stuff. In fact that's why I chose Empire over those primitive cavemen called Brets.

boardbox
07-12-2006, 04:30
From the point of view of being historical, the Empire has mostly things that were possibilities during the renaissance and that is always the era it seemed to represent to me. Less of the backwards dark ages and more new ideas. Da Vinci had a design for a tank, China had rockets forever. Some of the claims made don't seem to pay any attention to that.

I'm not a huge fan of the mechanical horse or pigeon bombs. Those are bit out there. However, this is GW's fantasy world and it's not nearly playing with the technology that other fantasy worlds play with. Final Fantasy, Eberron and Warcraft spring to mind.

Empire engineers are reputed to be insane maniacs that tinker all day and get blown up. Supposedly they create all sorts of freakish things that are very complicated and hard to reproduce. The horses and pigeons could simply be the extreme example and fluffwise and probably considered rare. Hell, I played a Warhammer roleplay game from a book that had an engineer with a submarine in the basement.

For those claiming the tech isn't realistic, I kindly ask you to reconsider every mage and magic item you've ever taken. They aren't very realistic, are they?

It's a fantasy world. The rules are different. They have naked dwarves with giant axes. They have magic shields that make cannonballs bounce off you. They have slender, good looking, blonde, OLD BEYOND BELIEF men that throw fireballs, call down comets and enjoy archery. They have goats that walk on two legs. Giant lizards ruled by great fat frogs. They have tiny green men. Do you get the idea?

Adept
07-12-2006, 05:30
I voted for the #1 option.

I don't like tanks, helicopters and machine guns in my fantasy settings.

dirach.
07-12-2006, 10:45
To me it is important to know "what is the idea of the world". According to Rick priestly the miniatures was born before the game. GW was making miniatures for historical battlegames and for fantasy systems like D&D. Then the idea came. "Why not make a world where all these miniatures could be used?". They did so, and the warhammer world was born. The world was expanded as new miniatures was made. If someone made vikings, then vikings was included, if someone made riflemen it was included to. So to me, mixing different epocs have always been an essential part of the game. There are vikings, riflemen, rockets and demons in one world. There is no way viking tribes could be a danger in the "real renessance world". But it is ok as it is fantasy. So to me saying "I don't like blackpowder in fantasy" is a way of saying "I have picked the wrong world" The warhammer world is about Blackpowder. Just like star wars is about hyperspace. It doesn't make sence to say "I like star wars but I don't care about hyperspace."

Now. There is also those who present stuff like rockets as a gigantic leap in tecnology. I don't think so. Rockets have been a part of the world atleast for 20 years. The dwarfs have had steamboats and submarines for over 15 years. The warhammer world have fortresses with mechanical gates. The empire was using handheld machineguns in 3rd edition.

And then we have the. "we could not make this in our world". Mechanical horses could not be made in our world. That is true. But we can not make small helicopters running on steam either. We can not made robotiarms like the skaven, and we can not make flying devices like those used by the birdmen in the DOW army. This is nothing new. Impossible tecnology is a part of the warhammer, and have been so for a long time. (That said, I would like to see a more primitive mechanical horse, but I am still going to try it.)

There is also the "It does not fit the feel of the army". This is used against the empire engineerers. "let the dwarfs do the fancy stuff". I would say that I have missed some weird stuff in the Empire. The background have always said that the Empire is more experimental than the dwarf, and that the skaven base they're tecnology on that of other races. Still both skaven and dwarfs had weirder equipment than the empire. Now the empire is closer to what the background say. But back to the feel. I like it when the army have more than one feel. The greenskins have the Orc and the goblin feel. Wood elves have the spirit and elf feels and chaos have the mortal, demon and beast feel, but most armies have only one. This makes the armies one dimentional and boring in my opinion. The Empire is blessed with a rich background. You have the "core" infantery feel the crusade feel, the religions feel (Brought in because of the warhammer roleplaying game), and the engineerer feel. You could choose to pick one and leave the others behind. This is great, as you could choose whas fits you're image. Options is a great thing.

I think that was all.

Cheers.

Dr Death
07-12-2006, 11:57
Anything goes simply doesnt work, it's the limits that define what something is. Just as when theming your army you leave out certain things and focus on others so with a game world you leave out some things and focus on others. As i said in my previous thread im not going to limit myself so much by picking a particular real world 'age' which all fantasy races must comply to but i think it's vitally important for the identity of the game that it preserves it's own limits now it's got to such a developed form particularly when it's become so large and well known.

People have come to expect a certain feel to their armies and it is because of that feel that they love them so much. When you start meddling with it by adding all these new aspects it becomes harder to love with the same passion.

Steam-punk in it's various forms have never been a large part of warhammer. It's had a presence (though i think that was more inadvertantly than purposefully) but it has never been a significant thematic player next to the parody of the real world and literature, the theme of chaos vrs order and the importance of religion and superstition. Therefore suddenly some bright spark at GW turning around and deciding that they want to add a hefty portion of steam-punk to this that or the other army is ultimately and inevitably going to be met with some completely justified resistance by 'traditionalists' or at least those who appreciated the army in a previous form be it earlier or later.

While in the background an engineer may or may not be tinkering with any number of obscure devices the fact is that only the most reliable would ever make it onto the feild. A mechanical horse, regardless of whether it's even capable within 'warhammer physics' is more likely to be used as a toy for the idle rich (Entymology joke here- Hobby horse ah ha ha ha ha ha) than it is to be used in the imperial armies. Personally i think it's a step too far down focusing too heavily on the engineer guild. The empire i already reknowned for engineer guild 'themed' gunlines without promoting more people drop their halberd and head into the realms of technology. But hey that's just my opinion rather than my point which i have already expressed.

Dr Death

Ursca
07-12-2006, 12:42
Out of interest, is the clockwork horse purely mundane clockwork, or does it have magical assistance?

dirach.
07-12-2006, 13:56
*Anything goes simply doesnt work, it's the limits that define what something is.

*It's vitally important for the identity of the game that it preserves it's own limits now it's got to such a developed form particularly when it's become so large and well known.

*People have come to expect a certain feel to their armies and it is because of that feel that they love them so much. When you start meddling with it by adding all these new aspects it becomes harder to love with the same passion.

I agree.



Steam-punk in it's various forms have never been a large part of warhammer. It's had a presence (though i think that was more inadvertantly than purposefully) but it has never been a significant thematic player next to the parody of the real world and literature, the theme of chaos vrs order and the importance of religion and superstition. Therefore suddenly some bright spark at GW turning around and deciding that they want to add a hefty portion of steam-punk to this that or the other army is ultimately and inevitably going to be met with some completely justified resistance by 'traditionalists' or at least those who appreciated the army in a previous form be it earlier or later.

I don't agree here. Where is the large steampunkification? Yes the engineerers is a stronger theme, but it is building on existing material. The rules also limit this theme. The equipment with most impact is put in the rare slot. So even if you have more choice you still can take only two weird warmachines. This was often done before. One steam tank and one helblaster. You can still take only four engineerers but you have more choice in equipment. So the number of engineerers are the same as before. The only place where there is more "steam" is in the special slot, but the outriders is nothing new to the veteran players.

The religious theme is also stronger than before. And the "traditional infantery" empire is not weaker. So as I see it you got two themes that are stronger, but is in line with older material, and the traditional army is still there as an option. It is possible to expand some elements without spoiling what was before. I think Gw did just that.

I would also say that the steampunk elements was very visible before to. You got the steamtank, helblasters, repeating handguns, gyrocopters, flame throwers, warplightning, steam boats and steam submarines. All these elements are well known in the setting.

Dr Death
07-12-2006, 14:33
Well this is where i have to draw in my differences between 'steam' and 'steam punk'. 'Steam' is what i would count the Helblaster, steam tank and gyrocopter under. Each of them is something of a novelty item in the army list with no particular emphesis given to them. 'Steam punk' is a image, it's a style based on emphesis of steam based technology.

Whereas 'steam' conjures up images of Stephenson's rocket, 'steam punk' can most fitfully be seen in things such as zion from 'the matrix'- I've described it more than once as buff blokes in the industrial workings of hell in torn shirts and stupid hairstyles, that kind of 'power of industry' it's very bolshevik in it's imagery.

It's all very quibbly (arent all debates between geeks:rolleyes:) but it's something i personally feel quite strongly about as regards to the game. I think with too much representation the technological aspects of the Empire and the Dwarves overshadow the other qualities of their background. I certainly dont think torn shirts and stupid hairstyles (not that im throwing any stones;) ) befit the rather proper and old fashioned races of the Empire and Dwarves. The engineering guild i consider more interested in similarly quibbling matters over increased efficiency and rerouted oil supplies rather than making great strides in technical acheivement- If they can make a mechanical horse how come they havnt figured out how to build a steam tank from scratch? Personally i love the pigeon bombs though, they're the kind of mad-cap 'pet project' that an engineer of the guild would be indulging in, convinced of it's success.

Dr Death

ashc
07-12-2006, 15:36
I think most of the engineering stuff really is just shiny gubbinz and practically useless overall, and is really a bit of polish on an empire army that has changed very little indeed.

Ontopic: I think you have to have *some* limitations, you cannot have an 'anything goes' scenario when it comes to background and setting.

Ash

cookiescrumble
07-12-2006, 15:40
I went with the middle option, i don't feel that the Gyrocopter is over the line though.

grimkeeper
07-12-2006, 18:21
hi,ok so the way i see it is that when GW only had the 2 systems, fantasy and 40k there was a strong deviding line between the 2 now that LOTR has come along as the third system GW has had to reasses where it fits in since the films finished and thats Fantasy, therfore Warhammer has also had to shift.I would expect to see alot more changes in the future,but im intreaged as to how things will develop from army to army.i have no inside knowlage it just makes sense to me.Never liked Gyrocopter till now heres looking foward.

Damien 1427
07-12-2006, 18:34
Depends on the race, and even then, I loves my steampunk so I don't think we should drop technology that's more advanced than seen Lord of the Rings. Indeed, the races who've a grasp of technology are my favourites, the Dwarves especially.

I say roll with it as long as it makes sense. For example, I don't see how or why the Bretts would be riding steam-powered horses and wearing in hydraulic armour, powered by a massive great steam-furnace... It goes against what they're established to be, and that's Arthurian knights, not steampunk crusaders. But the Chaos Dwarves should most certainly have an advanced grasp of engineering, be it in the form of steam-powered golems or titanic artillery pieces, advanced firearms and possibly even some form of daemonic/mechanical cavalry. They're Dwarves without morals, or shackled to tradition. They've essentially decided to do whatever the hell they please, which creates technological horrors.

Of course, I'm biased. I'd love to see a more steampunk setting released by GW, despite the whines that they'd be ripping off Warmachine. So give me clockwork knights, hydraulic armour and steam-powered mecha. :D

Stouty
07-12-2006, 18:46
Steampunk/Steam elements to the Empire army
Hero Choices
Engineer (highly unpopular choice)
Bombing pidgeon (option for engineer)
Mechanical horse (option for engineer)

Core

Special
Pistoliers (old part of the empire, not particularly steampunked)
Outirders (been here since 5th edition at least, quite possibly fourth)
Rare
Hellblaster (been here since 5th edition at least, quite possibly fourth)
Hellstorm (ZOMG! NEW! but is is innaccurate rare choice in competition with hellblaster, STank and flaggies)

General Gadgets
Repeater handguns/pistols (been here since 5th edition at least, quite possibly fourth)

Now lets look at


Religious elements of the Empire
Lords
Archlector (new addition, been in backround for a long time)
War alter (new addition, been in backround for a long time)

Heroes
Warrior priest (made better, nice balance between magic defense and combat offence)

Core
Arguably militia
Knights

Special
Inner circle
Ulric foot knights (now great swordy types, but a valid option still)

Rare
Flaggies (updated with more rules)

To me most of the empire's choices still seem to be proffessional military.

MattKienbaum
07-12-2006, 19:13
It is a matter of perspective. I perfer to think of "Fantasy" as sword slinging and spell casting. However I picked and empire army for it's flexabalty. I can have a sword slinging spell shooting army if I like or a blackpowder army if I like. To me the problem is how it fits with my suspenchion of disbelief. I want to be able to belive in my army not just look at ie and think "Goofy" I don't see a problem with some of the new teck, but would like GW to be carfull about breaking the perverable line.

swordwind
07-12-2006, 19:16
Magic removes the need for technology. Why go to the trouble of inventing a bomb when you can bring in a wizard who does the same job instantly?

Also I dont care if the Chinese had rockets before the dawn of time, they were'nt arround medieval/renaissance Europe were they?

Damien 1427
07-12-2006, 19:31
Magic removes the need for technology. Why go to the trouble of inventing a bomb when you can bring in a wizard who does the same job instantly?

Because anyone can use a bomb, given quick training and a bit of common sense. Bombs can be mass-produced, modified, and issued to troops. Training a wizard is a lot longer, more costly, and there's still greater margins for error. Same with firearms. They're cheaper, more plentiful and much more reliable. Also, technology isn't subject to the mad whims of the Winds of Magic. A firearms that explodes in your hands is an error that can be improved upon in the next design... Having your brain sucked out of a tiny black hole inside your skull is part and parcel of magic.

Technology is magic of the masses. Which is why typically magical races (Like Elves) and those whose power is based around magic (Wizards, etcetera) would rather clamp down on it. Who needs wizards when engineers can do the same things?

Darkhorse
07-12-2006, 19:55
Steampower without an industrial revolution?
Gunpowder is OK, (historically Europe was a bit backward introducing it) though historically it's introduction led to abandonment of castles as defensive structures circa C17 which leads to the anachronistic point. Why do they have black powder AND castles? The 2 should be mutually exclusive.
The point is shown with armour piercing for handguns which historically led to abandonment of armoured knights, though there was more overlap in time periods.

Stouty
07-12-2006, 20:08
Why do they have black powder AND castles?.

Because chaos and orcs don't get blackpowder?

Also in terms of the magic versus technology thing: relatively speaking magic is a new advancement for the empire, and they sure as hell don't like trusting the buggers who use it.

Reason no. 21 to use technology: Misfires don't cause the user to be possessed by a demon.

Anyway; it's only 3 factions out of 15. It's not like every faction has a zepplin mounted lasercannon.

Adept
07-12-2006, 20:11
So to me saying "I don't like blackpowder in fantasy" is a way of saying "I have picked the wrong world" The warhammer world is about Blackpowder. Just like star wars is about hyperspace. It doesn't make sence to say "I like star wars but I don't care about hyperspace."

Pretty much.

Just because it's integral to the setting doesn't mean I like it that way. I'd prefer it to not be that way. I would prefer to send the gyrocopter, steamtank, all references to steamships, zeppelins, repeater handguns, volley-guns, ratling guns, warplightning cannons, and all those other techy type things (including most of the Chaos Dwarves), send them all wherever the Fimir and Zoats went.

Or have them eaten by Tyranids.

Either way, I would prefer to see Warhammer without the steam, and without as much blackpowder.

Drogmir
07-12-2006, 23:10
But the thing is that humans have already been split in terms of tech vs magic.

You want the old fashioned Knights on crusades and magical thingys? That's what Brettonians are for.

YOu want Technology with Renaissance updated technology? That's what Empire's for

Voltaire
07-12-2006, 23:13
Humourously, people do not take a blink of notice that the rules make the Helstromm one of the most tempromental things in the Empire army. I would sooner use a Steam Tank.

Fideru
08-12-2006, 00:54
I find the gyrocopter is okay, but the mechanical horse...that's a different story, thats wayyyyy too advanced.

boardbox
08-12-2006, 01:33
On the idea that only the most trusted devices make it to the battlefield, that's for dwarves.

I would never expect safety or reliability to be a concern of an empire engineer, they simply aren't sane enough.

Sir Charles
08-12-2006, 01:58
I think the steam influence in empire could stand to be pulled back a bit, if only so the roll can be used for CD with a mix of Demonic and steam tech.

Darkhorse
08-12-2006, 10:03
Except that it isn't late renaissance, it's at least late age of enlightenment/ early industrial revolution with random elements from WW1!

dirach.
08-12-2006, 11:02
It seem like most have accepted the gyrocopter, and I guess this is an example on that we will accept everything that we get used to.

The gyrocopter is just as advanced as the mechanical horse. I will am certain if you make such a small flying helicopter with a flamethrower that is useful in combat, you would have the Nobel price in tecnology or something.

Sir Charles
08-12-2006, 13:53
Yes, but the gyrocopter is built by the Dwarfs while th emechanicla horse is done by the Empire, which seems to be what most people ubject to, after all no complaines about Jugernaugts of Khorn.

Dr Death
08-12-2006, 14:11
Well Juggernaughts arent really comparable- they're demons with pistons not wholey mechanical constructs. Like i say the Gyrocopter is a novelty peice, it's quirky and so people accept it just so long as it doesnt spawn a whole generation of new similarly advanced do-hickies.

Dr Death

intellectawe
08-12-2006, 15:05
In a game where you have dragons and ratmen and demons and angels, people actually care if the game has a rocket, tank or gun?

So a dragon and beastmen are historically correct, but a blunderbuss isn't?

Who cares what "level" of technology this game is based on. If my opponent is going to use blood thirsty near unstopable chaotic demon men riding steeds of evil who will tear through my lines, I am going to use a gun if I want.

Ursca
08-12-2006, 15:14
Things have to adhere to certain laws.

We could assume Archaon's army couldn't just fly over the walls of Middenheim without magic, because it doesn't happen.

Same thing with technology.

Using magic is fair enough, it's the explanation for most fantasy things in warhammer, but the laws of physics apply to Warhammer as much as real life.
A clockwork horse is almost impossible to make in real life, so it should be in Warhammer, unless magic is involved.

What people are saying is Fantasy, isn't. It's Surrealism.
LoTR (pretty much the standard for Fantasy) obeys these laws too, as does almost any other Fantasy book or setting.
Even something like Warmachine does, because it explains the inconsistencies with magic.

Dr Death
08-12-2006, 15:28
Yes, i beleive Tolkien called it the 'inner consistancy of reality'. Pure fantasy doesnt work, you have to justify what you create within the world and what with our world being the only example that we can compare the warhammer world to (and the warhammer world being 'suspiciously' similar to our own 500 years ago, it only makes sense that where we can apply comparison we do so.

Dr Death

dirach.
08-12-2006, 17:06
Yes, but the gyrocopter is built by the Dwarfs while th emechanicla horse is done by the Empire, which seems to be what most people ubject to, after all no complaines about Jugernaugts of Khorn.

Those who knows the empire background knows that the empire employ the most experimental dwarfs. These are said to make wilder tecnology opposed to the reliable dwarf tecnology in the dwarven realms. But still the flame cannon and gyrocopter was wilder than anything the Empire could bring to the battle field. Until now. The pigeon bombs are realy cool. With the mechanical horse they make the background fit the game again. :angel:

Revlid
08-12-2006, 17:16
While I merrily endorse Gyrocopters, Steam Tanks and any Daemonic Contruct (Juggernox, Ironback Boar) I don't like the mechanical horse, thanks to a crappy model.

dirach.
08-12-2006, 17:19
Like i say the Gyrocopter is a novelty peice

I don't get you're concept of novelty. The mechanical horse, helstorm and steam tank is both rare so could be seen as novelties.

And it is strange that you see tecnology as a novelty with an army that have tanks, helblasters, exploding shells (The mortar) and "machine guns" as upgrade in core units.

Stormtrooper Clark
08-12-2006, 17:33
Black Powder is fine in my opinion it's just when we come to the Mechanical horses that their pushing it in my opinion.

Dr Death
08-12-2006, 17:59
I don't get you're concept of novelty. The mechanical horse, helstorm and steam tank is both rare so could be seen as novelties.

And it is strange that you see tecnology as a novelty with an army that have tanks, helblasters, exploding shells (The mortar) and "machine guns" as upgrade in core units.

Mortars are a perfectly legitimate artillery peice that have been around since the 16th century. The steam tank is a novelty because only 12 were ever made according to the background and only 8 of those are still working. Advanced technology is a novelty in the empire, because as a rule they're all cannons, handguns and crossbows, rennaisance period technology. Only the works of Von Meinkoph and the tank (which is really more of a steam engine with guns rather than what you would traditionally term a 'tank') are particularly 'out there' into the realms of stretching what the empire is already capable of.

A mechanical horse is advanced even for us today- you've seen the vid on Youtube that's popped up in these debates, if that shuffling box on sticks is the best the 21st century can come up with then something that actually closely resembles a horse in a setting where most races have yet to discover blackpowder it's treading the boards of farsical improbability.

The Helstrom i'm more sympathetic to than the horse but again it's stretching the theme of the 'crazy inventions of the engineer guild' that was already perfectly well represented and besides- do empire really need another artillery peice? Isnt that just inviting people to go for gunlines?

It's all about balance and as it stands i think the empire has enough wacky choices of various shades without trying to make them orcs with pink skin.

Dr Death

Snib
08-12-2006, 18:18
Black Powder is fine in my opinion it's just when we come to the Mechanical horses that their pushing it in my opinion.

I have to fully agree with you, it just doesnt look/feel right. If a nation had the technology to create a mechanical horse (which was reliable enough to use on battlefields) why would they not create tracked tanks (just one example) which would be an awfull lot easier to produce than a mechanical horse.

I have no problems with the rocket launcher, it is a believable piece of equipment, and i actually quite like the sculpt - it doesnt feel out of place.

Items are created out of need, why would a mechanical horse be produced when a living, breathing horse can do the job just as well or better? it doesnt strike me as something which would be created for military use. As someone mentioned, maybe as a luxury for a prince etc, but not on a battlefield.

I know this is fantasy, but items would still only be created out of necessity in a military domain... why would empire engineers spend all those hours, essentially, remaking the wheel?

Colonel_Kreitz
08-12-2006, 19:26
I cannot deny that I'm highly amused by the debates of historical correctness in a Fantasy setting. Yes, it's quite true, mechanical horses dno't exist today because they are enormously difficult to build and require incredible amounts of technology to work and balance properly. What's hilarious is that people say that clock-work horses are totally unrealistic, then go back to painting their gyro-copters, demons, and wizards.

As I said, I am perfectly willing to accept that, in the Renaissance, a clock-work horse would have basically been impossible to construct in our world. Our world, however, also lacked Steam Tanks and fire-breathing dragons. My point is that it's a bit silly to flip out over a mechanical horse (which isn't even a substantial part of the game) when the whole thing is predicated on fantasy (ie is having black-powder really less "realistic" than having an army of skeleton warriors, raised by the dark hand of a Necromancer?)

I really think that the rockets are actually even more in tune with the Empire's level of technology. The Chinese actually used rockets militarily in the 10th to 12th centuries. While, in our world, it took a while for that technology to be adopted by Western nations, who says the Empire can't have them? It is Fantasy, afterall, and, even by real-world standards, basic rockets as such aren't enormously complex and advanced pieces of technology.

Oh, and in terms of people saying there shouldn't be gunpowder or technology at all, I must reiterate the argument that this may be the wrong fantasy universe to play in then. WFB has had firearms for qutie a long time and technology is an integral part of the way the game works (I've always rather thought that the technology vs. magic aspect was one of the game's most compelling points). Saying that you like Warhammer, but wish they'd do away with technology and guns is analogous to saying you like the Lord of the Rings, but think the whole concept of Magic Rings is silly; much of the universe is predicated on that point and, if you don't like it, then perhaps you've chosen to wrong game to play (note that's not an accusation. I'm not saying you're an idiot or something if you don't like guns mixed with Fantasy. I'm just saying if that's the case, then there are games other than WFB that align with your wants. Or, if nothing else, you can play Bettonians...).

Sandlemad
08-12-2006, 21:19
I thought what was done for the dwarves in their first army book was tremendous stuff as it reawoke the cool aspects of the grim combat orientated dwarves and because pro-active combatty dwarves were seen to be cool it encouraged players to choose those armies. The newer dwarves completely reversed that by making the 'in vogue' image of dwarves one of metal and gears and people with uncomfortably tight magnifying equipment and so champion 'gunline' type dwarf armies.

Yes. Yes, yes, yes. I had never been able to put my finger on why I disliked the new style of dwarves until now. Much more grim, much more viking, thats what was in the 6th ed. dwarves. Gunlines were outside the norm fluffwise, which is as it should be.
Too many straight lines, gears and goggles, too industrial, that's the problem with 7th ed. dwarves. They are almost victorian level steampunk. The steam-ships are grand, just give them lots of runes and hide the gears.

Look at the flame cannon. Wood, runes and pipes but it isn't industrial. The moulded head shows the amount of craftsmanship that went into it. Instead, the new dwarf machines are all metal panels and thick gears.
Thank you for helping me realise this.
"And next on Dr. Death, we have a man who hasn't spoken to his wife in 3 years because of his little pewter men...":D

Back on topic.
As far as I'm concerned, the Mechanical Horse would have been perfectly alright as a skeletal brass affair, very little armour, lots of visible intricasies turning. It would look imperfect and experimental, rather than the terminator style thing we have now, which looks too sleek and mass-produced.
And this is what I see as being key to the empire's style when it comes to their mechanical marvels. They ought to look as though they are one-offs, the product of an engineer's fevered mind, more like Da Vinci's sketches.

Take the gyrocopter. Yes, it's a dwarf device but it fits in well. No chimneys or funnels, no overabundance of victorian style iron and pistons, plenty of canvas and wood. It should set the benchmark for the experimental devices used by the empire.
None of these would be mass produced, except perhaps the Helblaster, which even then would be on such a small scale basis that it would still be fairly unique.

So, to my mind, lots of big gears and chimneys (like the current dwarves): Bad.
Plenty of wooden pieces, more experimental look and tiny clockwork gears (like the empire minus robohorse): Good.
Hope you can make some sense of that.

GranFarfar
08-12-2006, 21:31
Oh, and in terms of people saying there shouldn't be gunpowder or technology at all, I must reiterate the argument that this may be the wrong fantasy universe to play in then. WFB has had firearms for qutie a long time and technology is an integral part of the way the game works (I've always rather thought that the technology vs. magic aspect was one of the game's most compelling points). Saying that you like Warhammer, but wish they'd do away with technology and guns is analogous to saying you like the Lord of the Rings, but think the whole concept of Magic Rings is silly; much of the universe is predicated on that point and, if you don't like it, then perhaps you've chosen to wrong game to play (note that's not an accusation. I'm not saying you're an idiot or something if you don't like guns mixed with Fantasy. I'm just saying if that's the case, then there are games other than WFB that align with your wants. Or, if nothing else, you can play Bettonians...).

Not that I have any problems with gunpowder in this game, but I find it totally understandable that some people would rather be without it. Not liking one part dosn't mean you can't like the rest of the world. If we consider fluff gunpowder takes a very small role. Of course, since most races does not have it - thus I do not see it impossible to exclude that out of your view of the warhammer world.

Onwards. I like the idea with the clockwork horse. And I like the model, it is cool. But it do not belong in fantasy if you ask me. Looks like something a necron lord would ride. To debate if it fits or not is not easy, since we all have our limits on what is acceptable. I guess most of us would have trouble accepting jet-fighters. For some the limit is reached before the clockwork horse, for others not.

And indeed I agree, since this is fantasy where a man can call down lightning from the sky, arguing logic is... hard.

yeancientone
08-12-2006, 22:14
Warhammer has always trodden a strange technological line, simultaneously drawing heavily on real history and geography. This means that while some of the more fantastical stuff seems odd, the reliance on tenuous links to reality keeps it from going off the rails.
Oh, and I actually have a clockwork horse. It's a pain to wind up in the morning, but it sure stops the traffic.

dirach.
08-12-2006, 22:32
Mortars are a perfectly legitimate artillery peice that have been around since the 16th century. I'm no expert on tecnology and weapons, But I guess exploding shells was out of reach in 16th the century. But I'm aware of the mortar as a weapon.


The steam tank is a novelty because only 12 were ever made according to the background and only 8 of those are still working. Advanced technology is a novelty in the empire, because as a rule they're all cannons, handguns and crossbows, rennaisance period technology. Helblasters and repeating handguns are far beyond the 16th century. And wouldn't it be strange if the only thing the engineerer school in Altdorf came up with was the helblaster, steam tank, longrifle and repeating handguns? Would not this school come up with hundreds of devices and weapons that we have not seen in play yet? You don't become famous for making four pieces of equipment.



A mechanical horse is advanced even for us today- you've seen the vid on Youtube that's popped up in these debates, if that shuffling box on sticks is the best the 21st century can come up with then something that actually closely resembles a horse in a setting where most races have yet to discover blackpowder it's treading the boards of farsical improbability. I could agree on this if not for the fact that people seem to accept other things we never could make in the 21 century like gyrocopters, robot arms, wings that make people fly....



and besides- do empire really need another artillery peice? Isnt that just inviting people to go for gunlines?


No. As you still can only have two rare choices in a 2000 point game. So if a player that used a steamtank and a helblaster (not uncommon), he will have to take one of those away to give space for the helstorm. The number of fancy weapons are the same. The only difference is that you have more choices on what weapons to use. Options are a good thing as I see it.

adreal
08-12-2006, 22:45
I personally don't care about how far warhammer is advancing, GW have said in40K the ytimeline wont advance any more, I'm going to assume that is the warhammer stance as well, but all the books have to made to reflect the history after the storm.

Empire may have needed rocket batteries to shoot chaos dragon out of the sky, I don't know but I can imagine a need. Now the "clockwork" horse may look mas produced, but maybe it's just a few guys at the guild wanted it to look like a real horse. I don't know the rules to it, and I probs never will (I mean it's an engineer mount for goodness sakes), but for the sake of inclussion, it is on a small scale, yes if they can build this, why not improve on the STank, or make bikes and cars and what not. But how many people would want to sit on (or in) something that crazy engineers built, more likly to blow up and burn our pantellons then get to where we want it to go.

So in summery, yeah it's there now, who cares, really, it look schemk but in the end it's an ideolistic dream from the egineers guild, not something that in two editions every knight in the emipre will ride.

Gaebriel
09-12-2006, 07:19
I don't think you can throw the believe on things magical into a pot with the disbelieve on things technical.

Both are concepts that follow certain well-known roads, technical from our own world, magical from a well-established knowledge of generic fantasy. So I can have problems with the 'realism' of clock-work horses and their like, while at the same time accepting magic lightning and dragons.

So on topic - in my eyes they are overdoing it with the technological advances. They should have stopped before steamtanks, mechanical horses, Gyrocopters, repeating guns/cannons. I would have no problems with muskets, pistols, cannons and mortars that are on par with european 1500-something. I would have no problem with Dwarfs having a couple of more complex guns. In general, I think the introduction of black powder gives an interesting kick to the Empire (better if they had lost maximilian armour already, but meh).

But all in all, it's too much for my liking.

tenpole
09-12-2006, 09:07
I could not read through all the post but a from what I did read many posters think that rockets are a new invention. I think you may find that rockets were used in ancient china before canons were deployed in battle.

Dr Death
09-12-2006, 12:00
I'm no expert on tecnology and weapons, But I guess exploding shells was out of reach in 16th the century. But I'm aware of the mortar as a weapon

If you know how to use gunpowder you know how to make an exploding shell since that's basically what gunpowder works- Light it out in the open and you dont get very much except a fast burning powder but contain it in something such as the pan in a gun and it produces huge amounts of energy forcing outwards- that's the basic principle behind any gun. Now contain it in a large 'bomb' of some sort, shove it in a mortar and when the flame hits the gun powder you have an explosion. That is the basic principle of the mortar.


What's hilarious is that people say that clock-work horses are totally unrealistic, then go back to painting their gyro-copters, demons, and wizards.


Well in the case of magic and other fantastical creatures you're really arguing apples and oranges. Magic, so far as we know has no real world equivilent and so therefore one writing a peice of fiction can put whatever boundries one wishes on it, there is no reality by which to judge it. Science and technology however does have a real world counterpart to judge it by and so therefore we have some level of understanding of what is 'realistic' in regards to it. In the case of fantastical creatures, you can apply the rules of natural selection to decide what is realistic and how an 'inner consistancy of reality' can be applied to the creatures presented. Thus it is perfectly capable to be at ease with the concept of magic while still objecting to implausible technology (enless some other factor in said technology: Such as magic, is applied)


And wouldn't it be strange if the only thing the engineerer school in Altdorf came up with was the helblaster, steam tank, longrifle and repeating handguns?

Correction- they are not the only things invented by the engineer guild they're simply the only things in general usage that were invented by the engineer guild. No doubt there are infinate ineffective 'pet projects' that go unmentioned in the armylist but none the less exist in the background. A mechanical horse (of a less sophisticated design) may indeed be one of these as indeed could be any number of crazy inventions that the engineers hope will be the 'next big thing'. But like items featured in any 'innovations catalogue', the number of products that make it to become 'household names' are miniscule. Likewise the number of items created by the nutters of the engineer guild that are taken up as a serious military venture are a tiny fraction of those created.

To give you terms on which i would be satisfied with the concept of a mechanical horse, it would have to be a special character, of a hugely less sophisticated design (wheels, gears showing and generally 'over engineered') and utterly ineffective.

Dr Death

intellectawe
09-12-2006, 15:13
I'm no expert on tecnology and weapons, But I guess exploding shells was out of reach in 16th the century.

Leopnardo di Vinci "invented" ammo that exploded on impact and ammo that fragmented into smaller bits during flights. This was in the 1500's.

He also came up with the idea of the Tank, the wheel lock pistol, the machine gun, airplanes, an actual organ gun (just like the dwarves have), helicopters and even a robot!

Some people say that his flying machines would have worked if he had access to lighter materials.

his Robot was supposed to be a mechanical suit of armor. Of course this was never achieved.

But the very FACT that a man in a "warhammer" like setting such as 1500's Europe could come up with these ideas, like that tank, 400 years before one was ever built, a la the tank, means that the mindset for these things, like the mechanical horse, is a real possibility.

Now, if you couple in magic, demons and walking talking ratmen, then the possibility of a mechanical horse isn't actually that far fetched.

Many people base the "realism" of technology in Warhammer based on real life, but if some of you would do research on actual historical events/people from Europe during older times, you will clearly see that the mindset for such inventions existed.

Dr Death
09-12-2006, 15:45
Many people base the "realism" of technology in Warhammer based on real life, but if some of you would do research on actual historical events/people from Europe during older times, you will clearly see that the mindset for such inventions existed...then the possibility of a mechanical horse isn't actually that far fetched.

How did you come up with that conclusion? Just because someone does a few fevered scribbles on a page doesnt mean it'll work. There is a mile of difference between theory and practice. Now Leonardo da Vinci was a special case because he was as near as one can get to such, a genius or at least exceptionally imaginative and gifted. The simple fact is that regardless of whatever there may or may not have been the mindset to do doesnt mean it was acheivable- I have a mind to sprout wings and fly today but it isnt likely to be a practical reality is it?


Now, if you couple in magic, demons and walking talking ratmen, then the possibility of a mechanical horse isn't actually that far fetched

Again i fail to see how the fantastical in an imaginary world has any bearing on the factual. How do you link the existance of ratmen to the creation of exceptional (by even our modern standards) feats of engineering by a human race half of whom dont even beleive said ratmen do exist? This whole 'well there are some unrelated fantastical concepts in the world so obviously the technology can be equally implausible' really has no serious bearing on the argument. Just because i see a ghost does that mean the laws of structural engineering are suddenly smashed since my preconceptions have been changed on the matter of spectres?

Dr Death

Drogmir
09-12-2006, 18:23
This time of age in Warhammer is an experimental stage. Why is everyone trying to compare our technology to this FANTASY world? Did we have tanks that ran off steam ever? So Lighten up on the horse thing, maybe the guy who made it was the equivalent to our world Leonardo.

tenpole
09-12-2006, 19:48
The clockwork models from France during the seventeenth century were intricate and marvellously skilled pieces. So I would not say that a clockwork horse is a far fetched concept, besides it is fantasy you luddites.

gorenut
09-12-2006, 20:00
I'm sure if the Mechanical steed was painted differently, it'd remind us a lot less of Necrons.

I'd love to see it painted to look like a combination of some kind of stone and metal.

Warwolt the skaven
09-12-2006, 20:32
But Juggernaughts are animted, huh? Its just a scrap-metal pile with a deamon in it... or, a very armored deamon :P

IMHO, if GW want steampunk then bloody damn make a Warhammer Steampunk

Adept
09-12-2006, 20:46
A mechanical horse is advanced even for us today- you've seen the vid on Youtube that's popped up in these debates, if that shuffling box on sticks is the best the 21st century can come up with then something that actually closely resembles a horse in a setting where most races have yet to discover blackpowder it's treading the boards of farsical improbability.

Of all the technological doo-hickies in WHFB, the clockwork horse bothers me the least. I assume it is simply a metal body animated by magic.

Damien 1427
09-12-2006, 20:55
IMHO, if GW want steampunk then bloody damn make a Warhammer Steampunk

They did. It's called Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

Again, I consider the key problem of the Clockwork Horse is the model.

Rowenstin
10-12-2006, 13:21
Again i fail to see how the fantastical in an imaginary world has any bearing on the factual

Because the laws of physics don't have to be the same in the old world than our own, allowing things there to exist and work that wouldn't in our own. People can wield swords so large that they would break my spine if I tried to pick them up, huge dragons can fly, and wild mechanical devices can work.

John Wayne II
10-12-2006, 13:25
Of all the technological doo-hickies in WHFB, the clockwork horse bothers me the least. I assume it is simply a metal body animated by magic.

Indeed. Isn't it supposed to be made by one of the colleges of magic?