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LORD_HONSOU
08-07-2005, 17:40
almost everything can be replaced by bionics,legs ,arms, torso,chest head. eyes prolly ears. so what cant be?

malika
08-07-2005, 17:49
I guess a brain, I dunno...

ArtificerArmour
08-07-2005, 18:09
i reckon parts of the brain can, creating a being that basically is a robot, hence servitors.

but how much can you replace before you begin losing the soul?

Brusilov
08-07-2005, 18:30
Brains can be replaced or they can be upgraded. The former applies to the Servitors since they are basically lobotomised and reduced to vegetables, the cybernetic brains serves to carry out orders (the biological brains only remains because it is necessary for the servitor to live). The latter applies to the techpriest who want to improve their whole body, including their brain in order to come closer to the Machine God.

Otherwise everything else can be replaced.

TenTailedCat
08-07-2005, 18:35
True, according to the Inquisitor rulebook pretty much anything can be replaced, though not always with something as efficient as the original. However I don't think anyone outside of the Tech-Priesthood, the Astartes and other high ranking military and secular organisations would have anything even close to advanced Bionics.
Most lower class citizens would probably have little or no access to bionics at all, and according to some of Abnetts books the Ecclesiarchy are slow on the uptake when it comes to tech, I can't eally imagining them using that sort of tech either.

gunhed
08-07-2005, 18:52
So when would a bionically enhanced human stop being human?

A completely replaced body with a bionic/artificial brain would surely be a robot for want of a better word wouldn't it?

TenTailedCat
08-07-2005, 18:57
Not really, since the human memories and knowledge are transfered over to the bionic brain, rather than with a robot where someone would have to try and program these things from scratch. I'd imagine programming a lifetimes' worth of experiences, knowledge, emotions and basic personality traits would be nigh on impossible.

gunhed
08-07-2005, 19:13
I see what you're saying, and I agree. I was just wondering how a paticularly zelous priest or =][= would view a fully augmented (including the brain)human.

It could be the "hammer" argument: "I've had this hammer for three years; I've only changed the handle three times and the head twice". Which of course begs the question "is it still the same hammer"? It would be the same for a human as well I'd imagine.

I suppose the iron Fists and AM wouldn't have a problem, but the priesthood seem to have a down on anything that drags the human template away from the accepted norm (despite priests themselves having bionics in some cases ;) ).

El_Machinae
08-07-2005, 20:03
It could be the "hammer" argument: "I've had this hammer for three years; I've only changed the handle three times and the head twice". Which of course begs the question "is it still the same hammer"? It would be the same for a human as well I'd imagine.


We have that debate whenever we replace our cells. I certainly don't have the same skin cells as a did as a kid, but I still consider my skin to be mine.

I'd imagine that as long as the new brain is brought 'on-line' without losing a stream of consciousness (ie. bring in new brain bits a bit at a time), then the person should be the same person. And they'd still be just as corruptible from warp powers (if a machine can be possessed), so the question about the soul can be looked at from that angle.

On one hand, though, it might make a person a little more uncorruptible. Having an artificial brain would make it a bit easier to program-out chaotic traits.

Finally, a person likely wouldn't be programmed, but would allow their consciousness to spread into the new machine. Much like skills and memories can flow into new brain cells in humans.

gunhed
08-07-2005, 20:20
I'd imagine that as long as the new brain is brought 'on-line' without losing a stream of consciousness (ie. bring in new brain bits a bit at a time), then the person should be the same person.

Fair enough, and I don't suppose that people are queing up to tell the Fabricator General that he's heading the right way to lose his humanity, even though he'd take that as a compliment.

Brusilov
08-07-2005, 21:00
Well, I don't think the Mechanicus knows the technology to digitalise memories and personalities. Even the highest ranks of the priesthood of Mars retain their biological brains, which explains the quirks they develop over time, as despite the rejuvenation process they would regularly undergo, they'd be slowly losing contact with reality.
In other terms the oldest Magos are probably loonies :rolleyes: something that is described in some details in the novel Storm of Iron.

TenTailedCat
08-07-2005, 21:17
Well actually in inquisitor one of the Magi has a device which saves his personality, knowledge and memories when his brain explodes after psychic attack from a Daemonhost. He's a bit slow and generally not quite the same (as you would expect) but generally he's all there to some extent or another.

Brusilov
08-07-2005, 21:59
Hmm, I would not take this at face value. I would find bizarre that a simple Magos would have it while the Arch-Magi don't. IMO it's just a way to keep him during a campaign.

athamas
08-07-2005, 22:53
there are many artifacts that are capable of copying someone's persoanlity in the 40k univers, pontifax {sp?} for example!

Lord-Warlock
08-07-2005, 23:20
Was just going to mention him, yeah. Pontius Glaw's personality was preserved after death - he was a high-level psyker, though. I'm pretty sure Aemos described the tech as "human" - not necessarily Mechanicus, though.

Of course, this was an Abnett novel.

TenTailedCat
08-07-2005, 23:22
I've read lots of mentions of memory engrams too, which fulfill a similar purpose i'd imagine.

Bmaxwell
08-07-2005, 23:31
well you have to rember taht what his mind was stored in was a warp crystal. So anythign really possiable with that.

but it made a very interesting charcter.

khedyarl
09-07-2005, 00:57
i reckon parts of the brain can, creating a being that basically is a robot, hence servitors.

but how much can you replace before you begin losing the soul?


This question is different than in most other genre/settings, as the 'soul' or warp reflection, or whatever you want to call it, is not effectively held inside of the body. It is tethered to the life of the being in question, I suppose the real question is: How many bionic implants does it take to 'kill' a man?

-Conan

nazdreg5
09-07-2005, 01:38
so basically everything can be replaced? so you can technically be all mecha and no organic?

Eldacar
09-07-2005, 03:22
Pretty much anything can be replaced. But you might start suffering from side-effects if you start tampering with the brain. But yes, you can be all-mechanical without organic components.

El_Machinae
09-07-2005, 04:39
Are there any useful tests to determine if a person's soul is still available? Would the presence of a pariah be noticed by one of these post-humans? Or would the soul (still functioning) be away from the body.

I find the whole idea of cybernetic upgrade to be rather cool. The cybertechnology in 40k is rather crude and unappealing (in aesthetics), I wonder if the improved functionality would be worth it?

Delicious Soy
09-07-2005, 04:54
In the case of the pontius, It would appear that some kind of warp magic was used to intstill his essence into the device, more than just his memory was put into that thing, he could still utilise his psychic abilities for example, though Abnett seems to have trouble drawing the line between psykers and sorcerers on numerous occassions in the Eisenhorn series, so it is possible that Pontius was using sorcery, but i'd say he need his soul to do that anyway.

The way I see it, the brain can't be replaced, but its functions can be augmented, through the use of things like secondary cogitators which can give a magos to ability to remeber things for much longer and in greater detail. The main problem is that 40k has a grey area between technology and religion, something that I like about it. The brain in humans is the crossover point between the warp and reality, making it hard to judge exactly where one begins and another ends.

Brusilov
09-07-2005, 22:41
El_Machinae, you're asking a rather interesting question. What is required to have a soul? Personally I would argue that a person that is entirely a machine, with digitalised brain and all no longer has a soul, not to say that he is a Pariah or anything, but to me a soul seems unseparable from being alive in the biological sense of the term.

In the case of Pontius Glaw, since warpcraft was involved the soul could easily have been trapped in a spirit stone like device, allowing Pontius to keep his soul.

nazdreg5
11-07-2005, 21:41
can an arm be replace by something else like a scredriver or sumthing for the techpriests

TenTailedCat
11-07-2005, 21:43
Of course it can, have you not seen Magos Dimitrii's 'Implannt Breacher' which replaces his arm?

A surgeon in the Xenos book of Eisenhorn has her fingers replaced with surgical insturments on oe hand.