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User Name
03-04-2005, 22:03
I find that when critiquing chaos lists that allot of people find that even with the inclusion of knights and some sort of fast cav that armies are not fast enough if they contain multiple units of warriors (one obviously chosen). Is it that warriors are just too many points for only one attack?

Why is it that people think that most of a chaos army has to have an above average movement of 4? Warriors can be quite a good unit to hold the centre of a battle line, it takes quite a bit of power to take a unit like that down while the fewer faster units roll one flank and meet the warriors in the middle.

My experience is mostly with a faster army with knights and minotaurs as shock units to roll the flanks but I recently got quite a good deal on another unit of warriors and am going to include both of them in my new 1500 point list.

Do people think that the mark of a unit of warriors is a big deal, is it only worth taking the mark of khorne to balance out there expensive costs by giving them an extra attack and better save potential?

I know that warriors are more vulnerable to shooting and magic but thatís what small beastherd and doggy screens?

So there is the topic, discuss please

Akuma
03-04-2005, 22:12
Is it that warriors are just too many points for only one attack?

Basicly - yes - But used properetly in right numbers with character support and hopefully one small flanking fast unit thay can still do wanders - the thing is that now you just can't build army with only them - you have to mix fast stuff in.

Selsaral
04-04-2005, 16:11
IMHO the slow infantry blocks are certainly a viable tactic, you just have to play them a certain way, and people who are accustomed to faster troops and always getting their charge might dislike playing that style or have trouble coping with the advantages/drawbacks of it.

Some of the techniques I have used to compensate for having the bulk of my army as slow infantry include a spell-heavy army. Since it takes longer than normal for the big melee to occur, you have plenty of time to blast away with spells as you cross the field. I also lean on all the magic charge spells, like the Braystaff of Darkoth, and the shadow and beast spells.

I also almost always use the helm of many eyes on a nice character in the infantry block. That way when you get charged (and it's usually tough to avoid cause you are so slow), you can brutalize the enemy before they can damage you. There's the Slannesh always-strikes-first weapon also that can be used in the same manner.

I'm also always tempted to use the Banner of the Gods in this situation. This can allow cheapo troops like marauders to defend your flank indefinitely.

Also I am always a big fan of marks on chaos warriors. Even if I don't get chosen, I almost always get a mark. The mark of slannesh is cheap on them, and has a very useful effect. But moreso getting a dispel die out of the mark of khorne, or a power die out of the mark of tzeentch, can be a critical component of having a strong enough magic power to be able to do damage by turn 3 or so (when the enemy's dispell scrolls are running low).

And yes as you pointed out, I always go VERY heavy on beast herds to screen infantry blocks. They are fantastic at it.

Akuma
04-04-2005, 20:01
And what size of heards do you preffer for screening role ???
I used 12 x 12 then 12 x 8 and finaly 6x6 - but non proven worthy :/

Selsaral
04-04-2005, 20:51
Yeah actually I love herds for more than just screening. With lots of big infantry blocks you are begging to get out-manuevered. Since the hordes of chaos book has essentially no skirmishers, it's wise to buy some large-ish, well-equipped (with command) herds to be effective skirmishing fighters (with the 360 degree charge angle etc) who can handle enemies who attempt to run/fly around behind your blocks, and then also have some smaller, less-equipped (maybe only a musician) to be fodder against shooters.

In fact, I got thrashed so many times by enemies who cleverly kept manuevering outside of my charge angle that I place a really heavy emphasis on skirmishers now. My last 5 battles or so have been beasts of chaos mainly for this reason, with absurd quantities of cheap and effective beast herds. If/when I try a chaos warrior army again, I will definitely buy the max number of beast herds (as specials).

In a 2000 point chaos warrior army, i'd probably have 2 units of 6 gor/7 ungor with full command, 2 units of 5 gor/5 ungor with musician, and even more if I can fit them in.

In a beasts army, I often field a 12 gor/15 ungor unit as a main block to escort a powerful character, then the rest as smaller units.

My final trick with these guys is painful, but it has been worth it. Get a wargor as your army standard and get him the Gore Banner (25 points, reroll all panic tests). Have him lead the big beast herd. Annoying to waste your army standard on something as low-brow as this, and it's not even saving you from all psychology tests, just panic. But it's saved my ass several times. This is the only way (outside of spells) to get any psychology protection of any kind on beast herds.

Akuma
04-04-2005, 21:46
I see you'r point but i'm not convinced to the idea of putting standars on such small units - thay are easy target for fast units as flyers or cav and are worth lods of points just for standars thay carry in addition arent thay use to support main combat regs witch have standars already ???

User Name
05-04-2005, 02:58
On herds of 20+ its a good idea to take a command. They are actually quite good at taking out t3 units.

Most flyers and fast cav wont be able to beat a beastherd considering they wont get a flak or rear charge and will take multupul attacks form the herd since it always gets max modles If he charges them with havcy cav then you can position them so that the knights overrun into a bad pposition and not rely be nearly as effective as they could considering it will most likley toak the knights 2 turns to get back into the game and by thn something should be able to turn around and deal with them, maby even charge. i use that trick all the time

Selsaral
05-04-2005, 16:32
I see you'r point but i'm not convinced to the idea of putting standars on such small units - thay are easy target for fast units as flyers or cav and are worth lods of points just for standars thay carry in addition arent thay use to support main combat regs witch have standars already ???

Yeah you definitely have a point. If you use your herds only to support your infantry blocks then the banners become less useful. I find my herds whooping all sorts of ass on their own so I don't mind getting them a standard. I've had my 13-man beast herd with full command charged by large units of silver helms many times and I don't think i've ever lost the fight. Two ranks + standard + unit strength (maybe) and you can defeat a lot of really solid units straight-up. Depends on how you use them.