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nurglich
08-07-2005, 20:00
Okay iv'e become quite intrested in the Relictors SM chapter, reading a old(ish) white dwarf article it appears they are not shy about aiding the odd radical inquisitor now and again. There is also a small part about them in the EOT conclusion, does anyone have any know background on these, home world, who founded them(they are third founding right?) force organization. I don't want to start a force if it becomes unrealistic to their beliefs ect. Can any one help me out on this??? :D

gunhed
08-07-2005, 20:13
Try goinghere (http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/relictors.html)

Brusilov
08-07-2005, 20:49
From the Index Astartes: Relictors



Founded to guard against the threat of the Traitor Legions attacking, the Relictors were once counted amongst the most stalwart defenders of humanity. But Chaos is insiduous and a sinister secret now lurks at the heart of the Chapter, a secret that almost destroyed it and now threatens
its very existence.
ORIGINS
Originally designated the Fire Claws, it is thought the Relictors were founded during the dark days of the Age of Apostasy, though records of events during that strife-torn period are notoriously ambiguous and difficult to uncover. One transcription of the Mythos Angelica Mortis suggests that the Fire Claws maybe
have been one of the so-called Astartes Praesus Chapters, a founding intended to bolster the defenses around the Eye of Terror be deploying twenty or so newly formed Chapters at strategically vital points in the region. The Fire Claws' fortress-monastery was based on an ancient Ramillies class star fort in geostationary orbit around the world of Torva Minoris, and the Chapter served as part of the Imperium's defences against the forces of Chaos for nigh on five millenia.
The Fire Claws are listed in the annals of Imperial history on many occasions, and have taken part in many glorious victories. Not least amongst these conflicts were the Purging of the Cult of the Inner Eye, the First Seige of Cocalus, and the Ablrecht IV Landings. They were also part of the relief force that made possible the evacuation of the millions-strong crusade army of Warmaster Hendrik during his ill-fated expedition into the Wheel of Fire, far from the Eye of Terror...
In the middle of the ninth century of the 41st Millennium, the Emperor's Tarot revealed the existence of a badly damaged space hulk emerging from the Warp near the forge world of Stygies in the Segmentum Obscurus, and the Fire Claws mobilised to intercept it. The hulk, codified as the Captor of Sin, contained a
renegade warband led by a Tzeentchian Chaos Chamption known as the Excoriator.
The Fire Claws' strike cruisers crippled the vessel as it entered the Stygies system and Terminator Assault Squads led by Librarian Decario and the shadowy figure of Inquisitor De Marche stormed the vessel. Realising they were doomed, the renegades made their stand in the cavern-sized engine room where furious battle was joined and Decario and de marche fought the Excoriator.
The Champion was a mighty warrior and carried a weapon forged in the heart of the Eye of Terror, a terrible Daemon sword with the essence of a Greater Daemon bound within its unearthly steel. The Inquisitor hacked at the Champion with his power axe, but the unnatural armour of the Excoriator was impervious to his blows.
The Chaos Champion retaliated, his Daemon weapon easily cutting through De Marche's armour and greviously wounding him. With another strike, the Excoriator shattered Decario's force sword and laid open his Terminator armour. Decario staggered, but struck back with his power fist, ripping the Chaos Champion's sword arm from its socket in a welter of vlood. Even mortally wounded and unarmed, the Champion fought with hideous ferocity, smashing the Librarian to the ground and slaughtering four Terminators. Decario muttered a prayer to the Emperor, reached for the nearest weapon to hand and struck out at the Champion. The Excoriator's head was chopped from his shoulders and Decario realised he had picked up the Daemon sword, killing the Champion with his own weapon.
Decario was filled with a sense of utter purpose as he weilded the Chaos sword and instinctively felt that this was a weapon that could be turned against the forces of Chaos. The wounded De Marche cautioned the Librarian to put the weapon down, that only he was trained in the use of such artifacts. The Librarian
handed the Inquisitor the weapon and the Space Marines returned to their ship, leaving behind an Adeptus Mechanicus survey teams to search the hulk for any archaeotech.
De Marche explained that he also believed that such weapons could be used to fight Chaos and should not be destroyed out of hand as was current Imperial policy. With the aid of Decario, he was able to convince the Fire Claws' Chapter Master of this and, under De Marche's guidance, the Fire Claws embarked on a
crusade to explore the worlds around the Eye of Terror and uncover more such relics. Over the decades that followed, many such artifacts were discovered and the Fire Claws Chapter became known as the Relictors.
However, it was only a matter of time before others discovered the Relictors' practise of using Chaos weapons in battle. A cell of Inquisitors backed up by the fleets of no less than four Chapters of Space Marines and an Emperor class battleship descended upon the Relictors' fortress-monastery and demanded they hand over De Marche and all recovered Chaos weaponry or be destroyed. Faced with destruction, the Chapter had no option but to obey. As penance for dealing with heretical weaponry, the Chapter was despatched on a century long penitent crusade. De Marche was taken by the Inquisitors and executed as a heretic.
As part of their crusade, the Relictors recently took part in the Third War for Armageddon. However, the Chapter was publicly criticised, as the majority of its warriors concentrated their efforts in the equitorial jungle, particularly in the region surrounding Angron's Monolith, despite repeated requests for assistance else where.
HOMEWORLD
Torva Minoris, the Relictors' homeworld, is situated in an area of the Segmentum Obscurus notorious for the intensity of the Warp storms afflicting it, and it is believed the world was trapped within such a storm throughout the early years of the Chapter's founding. A plague of Warp storms affected the Imperium during the Age of Apostasy, during which invasion and insurrection were rife. The area surrounding the Torva system was so ravaged by the taint of the storms that frequent pogroms are, to this day, carried out to ensure instances of mutation within the population do not rise above tolerable levels.
Torva Minoris is a satellite of the massive, blood red gas giant Torva Prime, and is classified by the Administratum as a Feral world. The population are superstitious savages who worship the Relictors as emissaries of the God-Emperor when the Chapter visits them, once a generation, to carry off the most promising young warriors to its "sky fortress". The tribes are known to revere the artefacts carried by the Space Marines as divine weaponry that can only be weilded by true and worthy servants of the Emperor; an attitude that seems to have been carried forwards into the dogma of the Chapter.
The "sky fortress" is the Relictors' fortress-monastery, a massive Ramilies class star fort that orbits Torva Minoris. Few emissaries are known to have returned from the fortress, but those few that survive speak of a monastery wreathed in perpetual gloom, where acolytes toil within locked cells to transcribe ancient, some say forbidden, texts as part of their training to become a brother of the Chapter. One such report, recounted by the notorious Heretic Archivist of the Gethsemane Reclusium, tells of the existence of a
chamber deep within the fortress, sealed behind stasis fields and protected by the most severe of wards. Exactly what is held within this chamber is unknown, but the account speaks of a miasma of evil that leaks through the metre-thick adamantium blast doors despite the safeguards. The Heretic Archivist's writings
suggest that the original witness was driven insane by what he saw, and died a slow, painful death within the torture chambers of the Ordo Malleus.
After the Inquisiton censured the Relictors for the actions of Inquisitor De Marche, the Chapter lost its feudal rights to Torva Minoris, which meant they could no longer recruit from amongst its feral tribes. The Relictors were forced to gather potential acolytes from amongst the populations they encountered during their penitent crusade. The Inquisiton has ruled that no Aduptus Astartes Chapter may recruit from Torva Minoris, and it is believed the Ordo Malleus keeps a close watch on the world to ensure its ruling is adhered to. The superstitious natives of Torva Minoris now believe the God-Emperor has forsaken them, and every year their ceremonies of abasement grow more extreme in their attempts to atone for whatever fault has caused the emissaries of the Emperor to turn from them.
COMBAT DOCTRINE
The Relictors are known to follow the Codex Astartes as far as overall organisation is concerned, but it has been noted that they have strayed from approved doctrine in a number of other areas. The major difference between the Chapter's combat doctrine and that of any other is in its use of captured enemy weapons. Many Chapters indulge in trophy taking, but the Relictors have in the past gone out of their way to capture, master and utilise weapons taken from the forces of Chaos. Despite the evident consequences of Inquisitorial sanction, they are thought by some to be continuing this practise.
Another notable feature of the Chapter's organisation is the inclusion of more Librarians than is usual, a feature some observers have attributed to the Relictors' proximity to the Eye of Terror. To date, the Inquisition has not acted on this information, though with the Chapter's recent conduct on Armageddon, it will doubtless be led to investigate further.

Brusilov
08-07-2005, 20:52
End of the IA article



In terms of battlefield tactics, many Imperial commanders who have fought beside the Chapter have voiced concerns about its behaviour. It has been noted on many occasions that the Relictors will only embark upon a specific course of action if it meets with some criteria only they are party to and will often only fight
alongside other Imperial forces if that agenda can be furthered. This is most evident in the Chapter's actions at Armageddon, where it answered the general call to defend the world from the Ork invasion, but ignored all specific instructions and requests, despite these orders originating from Commander Dante
of the Blood Angels himself.
ORGANISATION
The Relictors conform, at first appearance, to that of a standard codex Chapter, with ten companies divided into a standard mix of Battle, Assault, Tactical, Devastator and Scout Companies. But it is in the higher echelons of the Chapter that many differences become apparent. The Chapter's command ranks are gathered together in a group known as the Conclave and every decision concerening the Chapter's deployment and operational doctrine is made here. Only those proven in combat and of guaranteed purity are permitted to rise to become members of the Conclave, and privy to the true nature of the Chapter. As a warrior rises through the ranks he is gradually initiated deeper into the Chapter's mysteries and when he is judged worthy to join the Conclave the truth about the powerful weapons weilded by its senior officers is finally revealed. It is these warriors who, after many days praying and shriving their souls of all impure thoughts, are permitted to carry the Chapter's Daemon weapons into combat. The Chapter's Librarians, of which there are a great many more than a Chapter should normally possess, meticulously screen potential
initiates, rejecting all but the strongest willed candidates.
In batlle the Chapter fights with a balanced mixture of forces, appropriate to the given threat, and deviates little from standard battlefield operation. Only when members of the Conclave take to the field do the Relictors become something much more sinister. Senior members of the Chapter employ the weapons of the enemy against them, and individual squads carry unholy artefacts, utilising the power of Chaos against its foul minions.
BELIEFS
Central to the Relictor's belief system is the tenet that Chaos is not inherently evil, that it is merely a power that may be turned against those who weild it for evil. This manifests most commonly in the Chapter's use of captured Daemon weapons, but also extends to their increased reliance on Librarians. As a relatively new Chapter, the Relictors display a confidence of youth that borders on arrogance, as they believe that they have the strength of will and faith to resist the corruption of Chaos. They disdain those who have not the courage to use such artefacts, claiming that the power of Chaos is a weapon like any other and that the evil that threatens to engulf the galaxy merits the use of such weapons.
The Librarians and Chaplains of the Relictors teach that a warrior who is armoured in faith can withstand the temptations of Chaos and it is their belief that they possess this in sufficient amounts to do so. They believe it is their sword duty to hunt down such artefacts and study them that they might better understand the machinations of the enemy. This attitude has often brought the Relictors into confrontation with other Imperial organisations when heir objectives are in direct opposition, but thus far open conflict has been
avoided.
GENESEED
The source of the Relictors' geneseed is largely based on gene stock taken from the laboratorium on Mars and is thought to be composed of that grown from the Ultramarine and Dark Angels. If this is the case, then it would appear that the High Lords of Terra's reluctance to sanction the use of Dark Angel's geneseed in
the creation of new Chapters has relaxed somewhat. There are no recorded instances of unacceptable mutation in the Relictors' geneseed, though given their close working with the powers of the Warp, the Apothecaries and Librarians maintain close watch on the purity of their Battle Brothers for any signs of
aberration. It is rumoured that those zygotes that display mutation are allowed to mature before implantation into a host organism in order that the Apothecaries might better study the workings of Chaos on the flesh and how to defeat it. The source and veracity of these rumours are unclear and, in all
likelihood, they are the product of a fevered imagination.
BATTLECRY
"Strength of will, courage of will!"

Artekus Bardane - Chapter Master of the Relictors
A fierce warrior from the wilds of Torva Minoris, Artekus Bardane was the son of a battle chieftain and learned the way of war as soon as he could hold a sword. On Torva Minoris a child learned to fight quickly or he died, and this resulted in a warrior people, living a precarious existence plundering meighbouring clans for sustenance. His confidence and courage saw him easily best his rivals, and he was chosen by the Librarians of the Relictors to become a Space Marine, quickly adapting to the ways of the Imperium and its weapons of war.
His supreme confidence, some would say overbearing arrogance, saw him rise rapidly through the ranks of the Chapter, accepting each new mystery revealed to him by the Conclave with ease. His skill in mastering the weapons and artefacts of Chaos led to his being given command of a company that penetrated deep into the Eye of Terror on a mission to hunt down and capture Chaos weaponry. On the world of Eidolon, Artekus defeated a mighty Champion of Slaanesh, taking up his accursed weapon, a screaming flail of daemonic faces, and destroying the fiend's warband with the howling Daemon weapon.
The Screaming Flail was placed in stasis at the heart of the Relictors' fortress-monastery, where it is kept until needed. Before weilding the Daemon weapon, its bearer must spend any days in penitent fasting and prayer, purifying his soul and steeling his faith to resist the whispered imprecations of the imprisoned daemon within. Artekus Bardane continued to serve with great distinction, earning yet higher rank, learning more of the Chapter's secrets and unearthing more and more Chaos artefacts. After the destruction of the Cult of the Scarlet Vein, a bloody battle of which Artekus was the only survivor, he was finally elevated to the rank of Chapter Master at the recommendation of his predecessor, who was mortally wounded in the final battle against the cult.
When the call for aid came from Armageddon, the Relictors mobilised their entire Chapter and set off for the system-spanning conflict. Artekus ordered his captains to gether their warriors, and the entire Chapter journeyed to this war-torn world. Artekus led his men deep into the heart of the equatorial jungle, where he believed the greatest potential lay for the study of Chaos, given that the cursed monolith of Angron squatted in its haunted depths. All through the war for Armageddon, the Relictors remained within the depths of the jungle, famously refusing even the personal commands of commander Dante of the
Blood Angels. When the war on Armageddon drew to a close, the Librarians of the Relictors claimed to have had visions of a giant eye, dripping with blood, and Artekus immediately withdrew his Chapter from the warzone.
Following the Conclave's vision, he began to the journey towards the Eye of Terror

Brusilov
08-07-2005, 20:54
A story published in WD, describing the fate of the Relictors



Extremis Diabolus
The Relictors Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes were once amongst the staunchest of Humanity's defenders. Now, however, the insidious, corrupting tendrils of Chaos have tainted the very heart of this once-proud chapter. Graham McNeill recounts recent events and the threat to the Relictors' existence...
The dream memory always begin in the same way. Katanen would see the face of the man he had just killed, begging him through bloodied lips not to open the vault as his lifeblood flooded from a fist-sized crater in his chest. Katanen and his battle-brothers of the Relictors Chapter had ignored the dying guardian of the vault and pressed on towards their goal - the Diamedes Archive. Great monolithic doors, weathered and dusty with age, swung wide on squealing cogs that had not turned in millenia and Katanen felt a great vindication as Captain Pediese entered the vault.
But then his dream no longer mimicked his memories as a bright light shone from the depths of the vault, searing and unbearable in its intensity. It burned through him. darkening to become a sickly yellow glow that reeked of corruption and evil. A laughing from the vault, its features cruel and hungry. It turned its gaze upon him, burning eyes stripping the armour and flesh from his body even before he had breath to scream.
Katanen awoke, instantly alert, his senses razor sharp. For the briefest instant, he believed he could still smell the stench of scorched flesh, but dismissed the notion as ludicrous. A Space Marine did not dream. He did not know what these things he was experiencing were, but they could not be dreams. The hour was early, he still had some time before morning devotions and prayer, so he rose and donned his exercise garments, padding silently from the dormitory and into the attached gymnasia. Katanen eased into his morning ritual of devotional callisthenics, stretching and working his muscles in time to catechisms of ritual obeisance. Though he knew it was impossible for a Space Marine to dream, the images of the mission to Fremas kept intruding on his rest period.
The Diamedes Archive had been constructed, as near as the Techmarines could deduce, almost four thousand years ago, though how it had come to exist buried in the heart of a mountain top, with no obvious way in or out, was a mystery they had no answer to. An earthquake some five centuries ago had cracked open one of the deep tunnels that led within and soon after its contents had been sealed by order of the Ordo Malleus. No one, save the highest adepts on Terra, truly knew the contents of the Archive. No one, that is, until the Relictors had captured a newly-created daemon blade from a warband of Word Bearers on Subiaco Diablo. The Librarians of the Chapter had coerced the bound entity to translate ancient texts known to have been penned by its servants thousands of years ago. The text had spoken of the Diamedes Archive and the ecret held in its hidden vault; a secret that had been sealed away for all time.
Time had made its guardians complacent and it was a simple matter for the six Space Marines to overwhelm the company of Guardsmen stationed within the fastness and open the vault. Inside was a treasure of the Ruinous Powers, a treasure that groaned with the weight of ages and dark knowledge. Reverently placed within a stasis chest before being transported in great secrecy to the Chapter's fortress-monastery, it now sat in the warp-sealed Reliquarius, studied by the most powerful and pure Librarians of the Chapter. The secrets of the Immaterium it could unlock would make the deaths it had taken to retrieve it worthwhile and, though there would be those who would persecute them for their chosen path, the Relictors were careful to leave none alive who could speak of what they did.
* * *
Inquisitor Cyarro watched the burning wreck impassively from the bridge of the battle barge, Hammer of the Unrighteous, his breath wheezing from the gurgling machinery attached to his back. Thick pipes coiled from the machine, sutured to his flesh and piercing his ribcage with puffs of steam venting from the artificial pumps that now breathed for him. His own lungs had been destroyed by the strike of a daemon weapon on Subiaco Diablo and only the swift attention of an Ordo Malleus Medicae team had saved his life. That and his own determination to hunt down those who had killed his men and left hirn to die in the blasted ruins of the defiled cathedral. The Relictors Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes.
The ship burning in space before him was one of their vessels; a rapid strike cruiser ambushed and destroyed while refuelling at an outer-rim waystation. The Hammer's Astropath had detected no outgoing messages from the stricken vessel, and Cyarro was confident the element of surprise had been maintained. Another three days travel would see his fleet detachment reach the core systems where his spies had informed him the Relictors' fortress-monastery was anchored, badlv damaged after the fighting in and around the Eye of Terror during Abaddon's devastating invasion. The Relictors` fleet was depleted, their cursed base weakened; there would never be a better time to enact retribution on these traitors. Following the Relictors' treachery on Subiaco Diablo. Cyarro had woken upon the medicae slab in Nemesis Tessera, the finest Chirurgeons of Inquisitor Lord Coteaz having rebuilt his shattered body with prosthetics, bionics and vat-grown plasflesh. Upon his recovery, Cyarro had convened a gathering of the most senior Inquisitors who had survived the relentless assaults of the Ruinous Powers on the Inquisition fortress, and petitioned the Secret Masters of his Ordo to have the Reliciors declared Extremis Diabolus and their lives forfeit. The decision was swift and unanimous. The Relictors had turned from the Emperor's Light and were to be hunted down and destroyed; their gene-seed wiped from the galaxy and all record of their deeds expunged from Imperial history.
The thought made Cyarro smile.
***

Katanen felt a shiver of premonition as he lifted his bolter from the racking and slid a magazine of shells home. He whispered the Prayer of Armaments and completed the seven Rites of Ordnance before kneeling and offering his strength-at-arms to the Emperor's shrine that sat at the end of the armoury. He and his fellow battle-brothers were hardened veterans, who had fought with courage and determination during the titanic conflict that had raged around the Eye of Terror, but they had lost a greal many of their number and their beloved monastery had been badly damaged during the recapture of Finreht. It had taken all the skill of the Chapter's Master of the Fleet to secretly move them to anchor in the Taeloth systems, where they could recover their strength and make use of the knowledge they had gleaned from the dark treasure within the Diamedes Archive.
* * *

"Will they be aware of us?" asked Cyarro, his voice rasping and cold.
"No." said the Hammer's Master of Surveyors, confidently. "I have brought us in on the far side of the planet to which the Ramilies is anchored. They will not know we are here."
"What of their Astropaths?"
"We dropped out of Warp space much further out than normal. If they have felt our arrival at all, it is likely that they will believe it to be navy ship passing through to Chinchare or Jubal."
Cyarro nodded, sure that the silver armoured Master of Surveyors was correct, but needing to hear the words spoken aloud. He had suffered too much and the Relictors had committed too many atrocities for him to fail now. His fresh skin, pink and raw from surgery was now stippled with dark inks, tattooed with the names of those men who had been murdered by the Relictors while under his command on Subiaco Diablo: Chouan, Kaotsu and many more. His heart burned with hatred for these traitors who had betrayed their oaths of loyalty to the Emperor. Cyarro himself bad once crossed the line into what many amongst his Ordo termed Radicalism, but he had suffered for that mistake wilh the blood of innocents and had paid his penance. He had returned to the path of righteousness and though the temptation of his former path still gnawed at him daily, he would persecute those who had fallen with the fiery passion of a zealot.
"All ships report that they are in position and ready to commence the attack." said the Master of Surveyors.
Cyarro turned to the captain's pulpit, where an armoured giant in blue-steel armour nodded solemnly.
"Commence the attack." Cyarro said simply.

Brusilov
08-07-2005, 20:55
End of the story



The first lance strikes from the two Retributor battleships smashed through the outer hull of the Relictor`s fortress monastery, blowing whole decks into space and venting crystallizing oxygen like glittering blood. A flurry of torpedoes, launched from half a dozen smaller vessels roared from their launch bays and ponderously gained speed is they slashed towards their target. Ruby red explosions rippled across the surface of the fortress-monastery and it shuddered like a wounded beast. Though weakened and damaged, a Ramilies starfort is a terrifying enemy to fight and once its defenders overcame their surprise, a deadly tracery of fire erupted from its guns. One of the attacking vessels was crippled almost immediately, its shields overloaded and its engines blasted from the hull. The attacking fleet scattered, the larger ships concentrating their fire upon the damaged sections and manoeuvring to take advantage of the dead zones in the starfort's coverage. Space between the attacking ships and the starfort was criss-crossed by torpedo trails and streaks of bittery fire, a lethal web of explosions that lit up the stars around Taeloth with dazzling explosions. The Hammer of Righteousness surged forwards to a sagging, firelit wound in the side of the starfort, her prow launch bays rumbling open and disgorging a host of Thunderhawk gun ships that flocked towards the fortress-monastery like hunting birds of prey.
* * *
Katanen stumbled as the fortress monastery shook under another barrage of explosions. Klaxons blared and warning bells chimed, sounding for all the world like his sacred home was screaming in pain. An explosion ripped through the basalt corridor before him, knocking him to the ground and filling the air with fire and smoke. Crackling vox contacts in his helmel told him that their fortress-monastery was dying, breaches were being blasted all across its structure and boarding parties were penetrating deep into its sacred depths. Shadowy figures moved through the haze, firelight gleaming from long bladed polearms. He picked himself up, shouting. "Up, brothers, up! The enemy is upon us!" before firing a hail of shells into the fiery maelstrom before him.
Sparks flew from the impacts of his shots, but none of the figures fell. Internal recyc-umts fought to clear the air and Katanen could see the attackers clearly for the first time. Armoured in burnished suits of Terminator armour that gleamed with a blue-steel sheen, the warriors were figures of awe and terror. Covered in embossed scriptwork and with a multitude of purily seals fixed to their armour, the warriors were the very image of the Emperor's fiery retribution. Katanen was transfixed as he recognised the attackers for what they were; Grey Knights; scourge of daemon kind and the corrupt. The lead Terminator, a magnificent warrior with a crimson, fur-edged cloak swirling about him raised his bulky gauntlet and spat. "Trafficker with daemons, prepare to die."
Katanen dived to the side as a storm of gunfire and flame filled the corridor, hearing the cries of wounded men behind him. He rolled to his feet and deflected a blow from a crackling blade that would surely have decapitated him, but succeeded only in tearing his helmet free of his gorget. The blade bit into the wall, flaring sparks leaping from its energy-wreathed edge. Katanen dragged free his own sword and hacked through the polearm's shaft as a gauntlet hammered into his chest and sent him sprawling. He reached for his weapon, hearing the sounds of desperate battle behind him, the dish of steel and the roaring of boilers filling his senses, but an armoured boot slammed down on his arm and pinned it in place. He tried to pull himself free, but a hissing blade touched his neck and he froze, feeling the hot from the power sword scorch his skin.
He looked up into the face of the man who held the blade, a hairless, scarred individual wreathed in voluminous red robes stitched with gold Inquisitorial rosettes. He bore hissing machinery upon his back and was surrounded by faceless, hooded adepts and servitors. A trio of Grey Knights kept their storm bolters trained on him and a flitting skull with a burning red eye buzzed around the Inquisitor. The man`s skin was covered with swirling text that Katanen realised were names, scores upon scores of names. It was the face of a fanatic. Worse, it was a fanatic he recognised.
"I know you." he said "You were on Subiaco Diablo."
The tattooed man's eyes narrowed, "I was, yes." he said slowly "You murdered my men.
"We had no choice," said Katanen. "They had seen the daemon blade."
"You are a murderer and a trafficker in blasphemous magicks. I will see you and your kind wiped out for your crimes against the Imperium!"
"Crimes?" snapped Katanen, the skin of his chin blistering and raw from the heat of the Inquisitor's sword. "You dare accuse me of crimes? We seek to preserve the Imperium by whatever means necessary. If that means shedding blood then I am not afraid to see it spilled."
"You consort with daemons and slay the true warriors of the Emperor." snapped Cyarro, forcing the blade lower. "You are a traitor with no right to live and I will not bandy words with a trator any more."
Katanen closed his eyes and said, "Do what you will, you merely doom yourself to an earlier extinction without the knowledge we have gained."
The inquisitor's sword sliced downwards.
* * *
Cyarro witched as the fleet he had assembled at Belis Corona hammered the dying remains of the Relictors fortress-monastery with concentrated fire from their gun batteries. A Ramilies starfort was a missive edifice and took time to fully destroy, but they would love only when no stone was left upon another and every trace of the Relictors was reduced to dust. He felt a grim satisfaction as he watched mother powerful explosion rip through the remains of the starfort, his fingers drumming upon a carved wooden box, locked tight with silver chains and inscribed with powerful pentagrammic wards. He heard armoured footfalls behind him and turned, drawing a black cloth over the box to hide it from view.
"What news, Captain Pelega?" asked Cyarro.
Some of their ships managed to fight their way past our picket line." said the Grey Knight Captain.
"The starfort is no more. Inquisitor, we must give chase to those who escaped its destruction before we lose them in the Eye."
"Yes..." said Cyarro at last, resting his hand atop the cloth covered box.
"It is almost certain that whatever the Relictors stole from the Diamedes Archive is aboard one of those ships. We cannot afford to let them get away."
"Very well." said Cyarro. "Weigh anchor and give pursuit. Indeed you are correct, Captain Pelega, the prize must be with one of the traitors who fled like cowards"
The Grey Knight Captain bowed and retreated from the Inquisitor's chambers.
Cyarro ran his hands across the black cloth covering the sigil-carved box.
And smiled.

Grand_Marshal_Kazan
08-07-2005, 21:10
Okay iv'e become quite intrested in the Relictors SM chapter, reading a old(ish) white dwarf article it appears they are not shy about aiding the odd radical inquisitor now and again. There is also a small part about them in the EOT conclusion, does anyone have any know background on these, home world, who founded them(they are third founding right?) force organization. I don't want to start a force if it becomes unrealistic to their beliefs ect. Can any one help me out on this??? :D

I'm slowly working in a Relictors force too. I've found www.relictors.com a good site for help.

nurglich
09-07-2005, 17:14
Wow that's all helped a lot, thanks so i take it their on the run so to speak now. How long you giving it until they turn to worship the ruinous powers they weild?

Bmaxwell
09-07-2005, 20:25
I doubt That will Worship Chaos powers it is possiable that a few might but on a whole know. not all people that use chaos to hurt chaos have to worship chaos. i mean come on look at psykers and astropaths one could aruge taht they are useing chaos but they don't worship chaos.

Brusilov
09-07-2005, 22:36
Yes, the survivors of the Relictors are now on the run as Renegades. And although all that use Chaos are not necessarily worshippers, there is a strong tendency toward slow corruption over time (just see Inquisitor Quixos as an excellent example).

Bmaxwell
09-07-2005, 23:50
true. but the diffreance that makes me belive that the relictors won't go rendage is that there are constaly being screened by the chaplins and librains. one person yes but that many exspecially when there wacthing out for it. I have a feeling though that they'll have a corrupt chapter master at some point

Xisor
10-07-2005, 02:44
What happens when it's the Chaplains and Librarians that are the corrupt ones? :p

Yup, Relictors are following the Thousand Sons down the path of being kicked in the face by the universe when one tries to Master Chaos!

They're definately going 'rendage'

Xisor

Alpharius
10-07-2005, 02:51
You had me until...

"Rendage"

(Actually, you didn't, but, you know...)

Wha...?!?

Brusilov
10-07-2005, 09:14
Indeed, it would be most likely that in fact the Librarians would be the first ones to be corrupted. When the study of Chaos and sorcery is not enough to counter Chaos, people turn to using and in the end they lose themselves just like the Thousand Sons did.
On that matter, I am of the opinion that the TS deserved to be attacked and crushed, they had turned to Chaos already, if not consciously, their lust for knowledge would have led to their downfall and the Emperor could not allow his Imperium to have a snake that could bite it in its midst.

nurglich
10-07-2005, 13:20
But they are now renegade, theyv'e been declared ex-communicate right? I can't see them staying in the light of the emperor while there dweling in the eye of terror. I think at some point they may become mere renegade chapters like the astral claws/ red corsairs, which would be a shame imho

MrAnderson
10-07-2005, 13:22
I don't think that they have officially been declared excommunicatus yet. The Inquisitor who destroyed their Fortress Monastery was not doing it through official Imperial means. He simply bore a grudge.

I'm a Relictor player by the way.

Bmaxwell
10-07-2005, 13:34
If i played SM i would be too there fluff is some really interesting stuff.

good point about the chaplins and liberians being courrpt. It's proply gonna happen but I just wish that a radical idea in 40k would be right for once

then what do I know I made up renagade Grey Knights :)

nurglich
10-07-2005, 13:34
Bbut the fluff clearly staes they fled into the eye of terror, and that usually means2 things imo
1) they are now a renegade chapter
2) they are becoming a 13th company type deal

nurglich
10-07-2005, 13:40
What about Malal? he seems to be surfacing a lot lately pure speculation here but who better for worshiping the chaos destroyer who uses chaos to destroy it.... Relictors??? :eyebrows:

Jal'knock
10-07-2005, 13:44
The thing about the Relictors is that it may emerge that the Inquisitor that attacked them was hiding an artifact after they captured it (whatever it was) from everyone, including the Grey Knights he brought along. Perhaps their transgressions will be overlooked but probably not. Just a possiblity. I like the idea of a chapter that is seeking to help that which has declared it damned. They think they know better, just like the TS but have fallen into the same trap. Their future will probably be one of hitting and running against both sides.

nurglich
10-07-2005, 14:11
I hope GW builds on the ideas of people because i'm sick and tired of the SM chapters been all about the ultras and the angels of death, i thought the legion of the damned was going to get a major release but then they dispersed somewhat.... i don't think FW taking the project would be a bad idea as there seems to be a number of Relictor players out there, release some shoulder pads a dred, rhino doors, why not? ;)

Brusilov
10-07-2005, 14:22
Personally I'm just generally tired of Space Marines and would enjoy seeing less of them in the fluff altogether.
And Bmaxwell, there are no Grey Knight renegades, there has never been a single one in the entire history of the Chapter.

nurglich
10-07-2005, 14:27
Personally I'm just generally tired of Space Marines and would enjoy seeing less of them in the fluff altogether.
I'm tired of the 'light shining from one's ass' type chapters personally, bring on a 'the means justifies the end' type instead, the not anoyying type imo :eyebrows:

Brusilov
10-07-2005, 15:35
For me the Space Marines fatigue is more general, I don't care for them and they're taking an unhealthy amount of fluff space and release time. Every other army to be released for the next few years is going to be Space Marines :wtf:
At least Fantasy is more balanced when it comes to spotlighting different armies...

Brimstone
10-07-2005, 15:45
What about Malal? he seems to be surfacing a lot lately pure speculation here but who better for worshiping the chaos destroyer who uses chaos to destroy it.... Relictors??? :eyebrows:

Malal does not officially exist in the GW 40K universe.

However you do get nods towards him i.e. the Sons of Malice.

Jal'knock
10-07-2005, 15:51
Thats the unfortunate reality that applies to GW and their policy on fluff, the best sellers get the most. The most players are space marine players so it kinda makes sense but the absolute lack of fluff for some armies is sick. We need more fluff for the larger forces like Orks etc.

Vaya
10-07-2005, 15:56
Regarding the fluff, there's something that usually bothers me. Maybe it's logical, maybe it's not, but I'd like to hear you guys comment on it.

Thing is, most of the fluff is written from the 'human' point of view. With forces like Nids or Necrons, it's no option letting them tell the story, but why does most of the Ork fluff come from the encounters the Empire has with Orks, rather than from the Orks themselves?

Brusilov
10-07-2005, 15:57
But this only applies to 40k it would seem, I don't know what's the largest seller in WH, but I don't think it's getting such a larger chunk of fluff spotlight than the other races...

Jal'knock
10-07-2005, 16:44
That'd be Chaos in Fantasy. The arguement will almost definately always come back to the fact that GW is a listed co and the shareholders could care less that the collectors want such and such a thing, its what sells that counts.

Brusilov
10-07-2005, 21:28
Yes, this is only too true, especially considering that too many gamers fluff is just that, a justification for a good game, while to others it is the very core of the hobby (and this is very much the case for me).
The only hope I have left is that Black Industries will release a 40k RPG one day, then we may get more information on alien races, or even on the Imperium, apart from Space Marines...

Kiro
10-07-2005, 22:56
Brusilov, don't you think you're being a little unfair in condemning the Thousand Sons? For one thing, they never stooped to murdering other Imperials, like the Relictors have done. Their studies also garnered results, with Magnus having the ability to potentially change the course of history by trying to warn the Emperor of Horus' treachery.

MrAnderson
10-07-2005, 23:04
Brusilov, don't you think you're being a little unfair in condemning the Thousand Sons? For one thing, they never stooped to murdering other Imperials, like the Relictors have done. Their studies also garnered results, with Magnus having the ability to potentially change the course of history by trying to warn the Emperor of Horus' treachery.
The Relictors will only kill fellow Imperials if a) they are the aggressor and need to defend themselves or b) the Relictors feel that they are standing in the way of something that they feel will benefit in the long run.

Personally (obviously it's a biased opinion) I think its no worse than Commissars killing cowards...

nurglich
10-07-2005, 23:21
Well ive been in the hobby a few years now and have been more intrested in WFB than 40k until recently. Ive always read the articles and even bought mini's for 40k, but it was the 40k fluff that intrested me the most. My point being about producing new chapters is that the 'older' gamers have already seen releases for SM chapters of the popular types and i'm bored of seeing the same ones. I started the hobby just after the release of the angels of death codex (vividly), i then saw a updated release (in seprate codex :mad: )with 3rd edition, and now were seeing it all again. I understand the hobby is very 'newbie' oriented now, but just some different chapters at least should be presented for the older gamers sake.
Am i making sense??? :confused:

Brusilov
10-07-2005, 23:27
Am I being unfair with the Thousand Sons? Maybe I am, but then they did betray the Emperor's orders, they did break their oaths not to study sorcery. Magnus managed to warn the Emperor, let's imagine the Emperor took action on this matter and congratulated Magnus. Wouldn't he be breaking his own decisions from the Conclave of Nikea on the matter of psykers. That would be opening that can of worms all over again. That would also mean he'd sanction the TS use of sorcery. Down the road it could lead to the betrayal of the TS as they slowly become corrupted by the power they're trying to master. This would lead to another civil war within the Imperium as the Thousand Sons fight their brothers.
I would also point out that, if I were the Emperor, I would have a hard time believing any information uncovered thanks to sorcery.

My condamnation of the TS has nothing to do with their slaughtering Imperial citizens or not. I don't care either way, there are plenty of organisations working for the good of the Imperium that kill innocent people, Inquisitors being an obvious example.
My condamnation is based on the arrogance of the TS, just as I condemn the arrogance of the Relictors. They believe one can master the essence of Chaos, that it can be bottled up, ready to do your bidding when you wish it. But in the end, it is you who do the bidding of the Dark Powers.
Chaos cannot be mastered, you can either surrender to it as the servants of the Ruinous Powers or try to master Chaos within yourself.
Chaos cannot be controled, nor can it be destroyed. It can only be accepted, either by surrendering to it or by trying to bring it into balance. Trying to establish your dominion over it is like trying to bend nature to your will, it will find a way to slap you back in the face when you expect it the least.

-EDIT-
You're making sense nurglich and I can agree with you. The problem is that 40k is a game first and foremost and thus you get new editions regularly and a new edition means redoing all the Codices and army books (and minitature ranges) to keep people buying stuff.
Personally both in 40k and WH I would love to see new armies and races, new concepts. Ogre Kingdoms and Tau were steps in the good direction (although I don't like the Ogre concept...), but we need more of that, as well as streamlined and definitive versions of the existing background available in separate books that would not go out of print (give that job to BL).

Kiro
11-07-2005, 01:38
I don't know Brusilov, I don't think it's very fair to say that the corruption of the Thousand Sons was an inevitability, or that they were arrogant. Compared to the Relictors, the Thousand Sons appear to be in it solely to master Sorcery, whereas the Relictors are attempting to control Chaos, as you have said.

The Thousand Sons may have shirked their responsibility as warriors (to what degree, we don't entirely know) but only to spend more time studying and pursuing lore. The Relictors went AWOL during the Armageddon war, and the latest Black Crusade, creating their own mission objectives and pursuing their own goals, regardless of what others said.

I believe the Thousand Sons aren't criminals, or heretics, and their latest incarnation highlights this. In 2nd ed. the Emperor was portrayed as the ultimate goody-goody, who wouldn't approve of all the shady stuff going on in the Imperium (the ends justify the means etc.) and would unite the Imperium and the Eldar together in one happy alliance. The Thousand Sons IA article was brilliant because it dispels this, it shows that the Emperor wasn't some do-gooder, and that he was capable of the same arrogance and bigotry his Imperium dealt so well in.

The Thousand Sons, like the Wordbearers, are a tragedy of the Horus Heresy. Yet, unlike the Worbearers, the Thousand Sons did not become embittered, nor turn to chaos, because of a simple rebuke. The Wordbearers turned almost immediately after the Emperors chastisement, the Thousand Sons turned after the Emperor refused to see the benefits of their study, after the Emperor sicced the Space Wolves on them, after their homeworld was bombed to oblivion. Magnus was stunned by the Emperor's betrayal.

This argument in itself is, I suppose, one big can of worms since the utilisation of Chaos doesn't always necessarily lead to corruption (Quixos notwithstanding :rolleyes: ).

Alpharius
11-07-2005, 03:17
Bbut the fluff clearly staes they fled into the eye of terror, and that usually means2 things imo
1) they are now a renegade chapter
2) they are becoming a 13th company type deal

Wha...?!?

As far as I've seen and read, there is nothing that "clearly" states that they've fled into the Eye of Terror!

The GK's (and the Inquisitor?) are only *assuming* that's where they'll go, as they have "Drunk the Koolaid" as it were, and truely believe the Relictors have gone over to Chaos.

They haven't, of course, but they might!

The remaining surviving Relictors have either scattered after the destruction of the star fort OR have stayed out on their own if they were on a mission at the time...

Unless I missed a large piece of background somewhere (Entirely possible!) I don't think the Relictors have gone to the Eye. In fact, I don't think any of them would move there permenantly. At least not yet!

As for Librarians being the first to (potentially) turn: absolutely.

BUT, I get the impression that they are watch very, very closely, especially by the Chapter's Chaplains. So, at the first sign, they probably receive a Crozius to the brain pan...

Nazguire
11-07-2005, 04:07
Wha...?!?

As far as I've seen and read, there is nothing that "clearly" states that they've fled into the Eye of Terror!

The GK's (and the Inquisitor?) are only *assuming* that's where they'll go, as they have "Drunk the Koolaid" as it were, and truely believe the Relictors have gone over to Chaos.

They haven't, of course, but they might!

The remaining surviving Relictors have either scattered after the destruction of the star fort OR have stayed out on their own if they were on a mission at the time...

Unless I missed a large piece of background somewhere (Entirely possible!) I don't think the Relictors have gone to the Eye. In fact, I don't think any of them would move there permenantly. At least not yet!

As for Librarians being the first to (potentially) turn: absolutely.

BUT, I get the impression that they are watch very, very closely, especially by the Chapter's Chaplains. So, at the first sign, they probably receive a Crozius to the brain pan...


Well it makes sense that they will go to the Eye of Terror. It seems likely that they will go to Chaos, willingly or not. For example their Chapter Master wields a daemon possessed flail and they attack Imperial Installations to get Chaos relics.

Delicious Soy
11-07-2005, 04:34
I think the main problem with the SM's is that the get used to portray just about every single character archetype, mainly because SM's have far less anonymity in terms of characters compared to the IG. However, introducing things like the IG High Commander, if it were played up more, could help bring about a change, Having a Lord General or even a Warmaster gives a whole lot more character rather than a Colonel or Major.

I think the fluff in 40k is always going to be Imperium centric but I think things are slowly getting more spread out, the introduction of the Inqusition lists for example are bringing different aspects of the Imperium to light, of course I wonder if it hadn't been for the Inquisitior game if these things would have ever seen the light of day.

Brusilov
11-07-2005, 06:38
Kiro, and what's the difference between mastering sorcery and trying to control Chaos? To me sorcery is the study of Chaos, as a difference from psychic powers. This derives from the conclusion of the Conclave of Nikea.

I definitely agree the Emperor was not some do-gooder, but he had an objective in mind: protecting mankind from the predations of Chaos. And the TS were a threat to this with their experiments on Sorcery.
As to the benefits of their experiments, they are somewhat dubious. Like I said, it could have been good in the short term, but eventually sorcery would have overwhelmed the TS and caused another civil war in the Imperium. I would say that on the contrary that the study of Chaos always leads to corruption under one form or another.

Nazguire
11-07-2005, 07:21
The Thousand Sons may have shirked their responsibility as warriors (to what degree, we don't entirely know) but only to spend more time studying and pursuing lore. The Relictors went AWOL during the Armageddon war, and the latest Black Crusade, creating their own mission objectives and pursuing their own goals, regardless of what others said.

I believe the Thousand Sons aren't criminals, or heretics, and their latest incarnation highlights this. In 2nd ed. the Emperor was portrayed as the ultimate goody-goody, who wouldn't approve of all the shady stuff going on in the Imperium (the ends justify the means etc.) and would unite the Imperium and the Eldar together in one happy alliance. The Thousand Sons IA article was brilliant because it dispels this, it shows that the Emperor wasn't some do-gooder, and that he was capable of the same arrogance and bigotry his Imperium dealt so well in.

The Thousand Sons, like the Wordbearers, are a tragedy of the Horus Heresy. Yet, unlike the Worbearers, the Thousand Sons did not become embittered, nor turn to chaos, because of a simple rebuke. The Wordbearers turned almost immediately after the Emperors chastisement, the Thousand Sons turned after the Emperor refused to see the benefits of their study, after the Emperor sicced the Space Wolves on them, after their homeworld was bombed to oblivion. Magnus was stunned by the Emperor's betrayal.



The Thousand Sons were quite clearly into the study of sorcery more than they were fighting for the Imperium. The IA states they became scholars and forgot their warrior heritage. As such it is safe to assume they became almost hermit like, ignoring Imperial pleas for assistance even if they were in their way. It is also safe to assume that the TS were doing exactly what the Relictors are doing, raiding for more knowledge, not for safekeeping Humanity.

The Word Bearers quite possibly could have been saved, but not likely. A hearty discussion between father and son wouldn't have gone down any better than that "Look to Guiliman, he is an example you should follow" that the Emperor said to Lorgar.

The Thousand Sons didn't become bitter as you said. They simply became more reclusive, and then all of a sudden unleashed a spell from Prospero to Terra that shattered psychic wards on the Palace. That would be more than enough to irritate the Emperor. The Thousand Sons weren't going to be 'cured' so to speak. They had dug into Sorcery way too much than what they should have.

The Emperor certainly wasn't a do-gooder. But as Brusilov said, he had a goal to unite Humanity. He was definately more open-minded than the current Inquisition but he had absolutely NO tolerance of Chaos, being as what destroyed the Eldar, opened up the Eye, stopped reincarnation and forms daemons.

In my opinion, the latest IA depicts that Thousand Sons as heretic and criminals, but in a different light. Moreover, as warriors that lost their purpose and guided by a Primarch that was being manipulated at every turn by Tzeentch. They were Fallen Angels in every sense of the world, but they aren't repentent, they continue to fight and destroy and raid because they know they are right, as they always thought they were.

sulla
11-07-2005, 08:58
Kiro, and what's the difference between mastering sorcery and trying to control Chaos? To me sorcery is the study of Chaos, as a difference from psychic powers. This derives from the conclusion of the Conclave of Nikea.

Hmm, psychic powers use the abilities of an extraordinary mind to influence the outside world, sorcery used spells and incantations to change reality so, in laymans terms, and while both manipulate the warp, psychic powers come from within the individual and sorcery comes from without (i.e. from another being, most likely a daemonic patron).


I definitely agree the Emperor was not some do-gooder, but he had an objective in mind: protecting mankind from the predations of Chaos. And the TS were a threat to this with their experiments on Sorcery.
As to the benefits of their experiments, they are somewhat dubious. Like I said, it could have been good in the short term, but eventually sorcery would have overwhelmed the TS and caused another civil war in the Imperium. I would say that on the contrary that the study of Chaos always leads to corruption under one form or another.

At least, that is what imperial propaganda says. Neither the Imperium, nor Chaos would be likely to publicise the successful use of Chaos to defeat Chaos... :evilgrin:

Kiro
11-07-2005, 10:43
Kiro, and what's the difference between mastering sorcery and trying to control Chaos? To me sorcery is the study of Chaos, as a difference from psychic powers. This derives from the conclusion of the Conclave of Nikea

You know, to tell you the truth, I'm not entirely sure. I assumed it was as someone else has already said - psychic powers come from within, sorcery only partly so.


I definitely agree the Emperor was not some do-gooder, but he had an objective in mind: protecting mankind from the predations of Chaos. And the TS were a threat to this with their experiments on Sorcery.
As to the benefits of their experiments, they are somewhat dubious. Like I said, it could have been good in the short term, but eventually sorcery would have overwhelmed the TS and caused another civil war in the Imperium. I would say that on the contrary that the study of Chaos always leads to corruption under one form or another.

But my point is that we don't know that (again, I'll say "Quixos notwithstanding"). Not every radical Inquisitor is consumed by the powers he seeks to use, nor would the Thousand Sons have been.


The Thousand Sons were quite clearly into the study of sorcery more than they were fighting for the Imperium. The IA states they became scholars and forgot their warrior heritage.

To what degree, I said, we don't know.


As such it is safe to assume they became almost hermit like, ignoring Imperial pleas for assistance even if they were in their way. It is also safe to assume that the TS were doing exactly what the Relictors are doing, raiding for more knowledge, not for safekeeping Humanity.

Well you know what they say about assumption... :rolleyes:

Please, getting creative with the fluff is one thing, but I think you're interpreting the fluff a little too narrowly. There isn't even an implication (at least as far as I know) that the Thousand Sons went on these treasure hunts that Relictors are so fond of, let alone concrete evidence.


The Word Bearers quite possibly could have been saved, but not likely. A hearty discussion between father and son wouldn't have gone down any better than that "Look to Guiliman, he is an example you should follow" that the Emperor said to Lorgar

Well I have to say I think they could have been saved. The Thousand Sons and Wordbearers' IA articles are attempting to show that the Emperor wasn't as perfect as the Imperium believed him to be. He practically gave Horus the Wordbearers and Thousand Sons with his blundering.


They were Fallen Angels in every sense of the world, but they aren't repentent...

Actually, if you re-read the IA article, and others, it sounds as though of all the traitor primarchs, Magnus is the most bitter of them all, and is...to put it crudely...hung up over the Emperor's betrayal.


they fight and destroy and raid because they know they are right, as they always thought they were.

Erm, that would be more down to Ahriman's faction...

Nazguire
11-07-2005, 10:59
You know, to tell you the truth, I'm not entirely sure. I assumed it was as someone else has already said - psychic powers come from within, sorcery only partly so.



But my point is that we don't know that (again, I'll say "Quixos notwithstanding"). Not every radical Inquisitor is consumed by the powers he seeks to use, nor would the Thousand Sons have been.



To what degree, I said, we don't know.



Well you know what they say about assumption... :rolleyes:

Please, getting creative with the fluff is one thing, but I think you're interpreting the fluff a little too narrowly. There isn't even an implication (at least as far as I know) that the Thousand Sons went on these treasure hunts that Relictors are so fond of, let alone concrete evidence.



Well I have to say I think they could have been saved. The Thousand Sons and Wordbearers' IA articles are attempting to show that the Emperor wasn't as perfect as the Imperium believed him to be. He practically gave Horus the Wordbearers and Thousand Sons with his blundering.



Actually, if you re-read the IA article, and others, it sounds as though of all the traitor primarchs, Magnus is the most bitter of them all, and is...to put it crudely...hung up over the Emperor's betrayal.



Erm, that would be more down to Ahriman's faction...



Ahriman's Faction only raids for knowledge because they know they were right? So the rest of the Thousand Sons just don't do anything that has any relation to the reasons they were exiled and attacked? :eyebrows:

If I re-read the IA article, Magnus is bitter at not just the Emperor's betrayal but the betrayal from Tzeentch and the Galaxy as a whole. He didn't willingly join Tzeentch coz he likes pretty colours, he did it so save his butt.

So I'm being creative with the background yet being too narrow? :eyebrows: The entire point of 40k background is that you can speculate and that not everything is plainly stated. So it is perfectly fine to make assumptions. When it says that the Thousand Sons became scholars, then it doesn't mean they just went to bed at night with the Book of Magnus for bed-time reading.

Not every radical is consumed by Chaos? You're right, only the majority do. Chaos worship is more insidious and deceptive than the classic "Blood for the Blood God". A lot of Radical Inquisitors that go bad were worshipping it years before they fully acknowledge it. A lot of the time its your own denial of worship that pull you into the worship of Chaos, ala Magnus the Red and Ahriman.

nurglich
11-07-2005, 13:54
I thought it was common practise for renegade chapters to leg it to the EOT, the imperium don't dare enter do they?

Kiro
11-07-2005, 22:32
Ahriman's Faction only raids for knowledge because they know they were right? So the rest of the Thousand Sons just don't do anything that has any relation to the reasons they were exiled and attacked?

No, I meant Ahriman's faction could certainly be accused of self-righteousness. The Rubric of Ahriman also means other Thousand Sons don't really do much on their own j/k :p


If I re-read the IA article, Magnus is bitter at not just the Emperor's betrayal but the betrayal from Tzeentch and the Galaxy as a whole.

Personally, I can't see what you mean by his feelings of betrayal by Tzeentch and the Galaxy :confused:
I meant, curiously, the Emperor is still referred to as his "father" even after the death of Horus, and how Magnus was stung by betrayal, rather than seeing the Emperor as a complete imbecile.


The entire point of 40k background is that you can speculate and that not everything is plainly stated

Slightly true. While there are some loopholes in the metaplot, or missing info, White Wolf this ain't. There's only so much a subject can be debated before it goes back to GW's wonderful black and white approach to fluff.


When it says that the Thousand Sons became scholars, then it doesn't mean they just went to bed at night with the Book of Magnus for bed-time reading
Nor does it mean they abandoned all their compulsory duties, to read books instead.


Not every radical is consumed by Chaos? You're right, only the majority do.
May I ask where you got this idea from? Please, before you say it, I will state it again: Quixos notwithstanding.


A lot of the time its your own denial of worship that pull you into the worship of Chaos, ala Magnus the Red and Ahriman

Now that's one big assumption. Look at the other traitor legions and how they fell, they had one temptation, to turn their back on the Emperor and serve Chaos, and they took it. The temptation for the Luna Wolves came in the form of the turning of Horus. Should they serve the Emperor, or should they serve Horus?
The Wordbearers? Worship an Emperor who had no idea on how to run the Imperium, and who was ungrateful of their worship, or turn to deities who craved, and demanded worship?
The Thousand Sons? Well, practically since their inception they had access to great sorcerous power. Did they turn those powers on the Imperium? No, they served their master, the Emperor, faithfully, and were cast out for their loyalty. Temptation was there for the Thousand Sons right from the beginning, but they did not stray until the very end.

Brusilov
11-07-2005, 23:15
Then you can counter-argue that the IA are not objective portrayals of the history of the Legions, just take the most obvious example: the description of the Iron Cage between the IW and the IF, there's a huge difference.

And I may put little faith in the TS, but I think you're putting too much faith in them. After all, it seems Tzeentch had his eyes on them from the very beginning, either because of their potential or because he instilled that potential in both the Primarch and his Legion Not everyone turns from the light of the Emperor when they start to study Chaos, but then we don't have that many example do we? And you have to take into account the fact that falling from grace is a very progressive occurence, you don't suddenly wake up one morning saying "today I turn to Chaos."
This is the whole point of the Eisenhorn books, to show how easy it is to fall, one small step at a time. One day you use sorcery to break through all the psychic defences of the palace and the next you're summoning daemons and binding them to your will and in the end you've lost sight of the original objective, to protect the Imperium.

And as to the successful use of Chaos against Chaos, it does not come from trying to bottle it up, but from mastering the Chaos within oneself. If you want a good example of successful use of Chaos against Chaos, just look at the Exorcists, but amusingly enough they're not radicals, quite the contrary, they're the closest thing GW has come to confirming the continuous existence of such people as the Illuminati...

Kiro
12-07-2005, 00:00
Not everyone turns from the light of the Emperor when they start to study Chaos, but then we don't have that many example do we? And you have to take into account the fact that falling from grace is a very progressive occurence, you don't suddenly wake up one morning saying "today I turn to Chaos."

Yes, yes I know, I believe what you just said was best exemplified in the old Deathwing anthology, with the fall to chaos occuring in steps, as opposed to leaps and bounds. However, some of the traitor legions ironically appear to have "leapt" right into Chaos worship.

Nazguire
12-07-2005, 00:12
Yes, yes I know, I believe what you just said was best exemplified in the old Deathwing anthology, with the fall to chaos occuring in steps, as opposed to leaps and bounds. However, some of the traitor legions ironically appear to have "leapt" right into Chaos worship.


The Legions that I can see that leapt into Chaos worship were the Word Bearers, Emperor's Children, Death Guard and Black Legion. The rest I see a steady decline, one bit at a time. The World Eaters for example had their blood rituals slowly twisted by Horus for example into Khornate worship. This didn't occur in one giant step. It couldn't otherwise you can be fairly certain that such an independent and aggressive Primarch such as Angron wouldn't adhere to it. The Death Guard were pushed into it through no fault of their own. They really had no choice. They weren't allowed to die as their bodies just wouldn't die and they were to be stuck in the Warp for eternity if they didn't worship Nurgle. Emperor's Children were once again manipulated by Horus, since they worship their commanders as perfection embodied, once the commanders fell the rest would just follow like sheep.

Alpharius
12-07-2005, 15:38
Well it makes sense that they will go to the Eye of Terror. It seems likely that they will go to Chaos, willingly or not. For example their Chapter Master wields a daemon possessed flail and they attack Imperial Installations to get Chaos relics.

I don't agree with this interpretation at all!

Wishful thinking?

Maybe!

I certainly hope that GW continues the Relictors' story though... But I'm not holding my breath!

Brusilov
12-07-2005, 18:20
Not all Renegade Chapters go into the Eye of Terror, that's a sure fire way to cause the complete breaking down of your Chapter because of the random mutations that will occur that will wreak your progenoid glands and leave you either to prey on loyalist Marines for gene-seed or ask Fabius Bile.

Alpharius
12-07-2005, 19:48
Good point Brusilov.

And really, they *might* end up there eventually, but as of "right now" anyway, they are still firmly on the side of battling Chaos by Using Chaos, and not turning towards Chaos.

They are a young and arrogant Chapter (not Marines Malevolent Arrogant, but close!) and think they know best...

Brusilov
12-07-2005, 22:05
Their being arrogant makes them all the more likely to fall to Chaos however. As I said before Chaos is not something to be taken lightly, even if you're not fighting a god or a daemon prince, Chaos itself seems alive and able to twist people to its own ends.
Yes, this is reminiscent of the Dark Side of the Force but it works in the same kind of way. No matter what your intentions might have been when you start using either Chaos or the Dark Side, after a while you lose sight of the objective and use power for its own sake and forego entirely the noble cause you were defending.

Kiro
12-07-2005, 22:20
Hmm, funny you should bring that up Brusilov, because there are characters in the Star Wars universe, just like in 40k, who can master the Dark Side and still stay true to the light.

Alpharius
13-07-2005, 13:13
Kiro, you beat me to it!

Brusilov
13-07-2005, 19:35
And who would that be? Doesn't it defeat the very purpose of the Dark Side that people could master it without falling prey to it. I don't mean using it (I know enough of the Star Wars universe to have heard of the Grey Jedi, can't remember their names).
But after all the Illuminati did also master Chaos...

Alpharius
14-07-2005, 13:30
There you go Brusilov!

Of course, the Illuminati have been retconned out of existence though... (Didn't they make a brief reappearance as a Tzeentch cult, or some such nonsense?)

Point being, I guess, that it might be possible to master Chaos (on a limited scale) to use in the battle against Chaos... But, the point is moot, as the rest of the Imperium (or parts of it) will certainly not let the Relictors rest easy in this approach.

But, the galaxy is large, and most people won't know what's really going on with the Reilctors until they've completed their mission and have left...

That's the plan, anyway...

nurglich
14-07-2005, 13:39
Illuminati???? GW being brave arn't they....

MrAnderson
14-07-2005, 13:40
The Illuminati aren't anything to do with the alleged real life Illuminati.

nurglich
14-07-2005, 14:37
The Illuminati aren't anything to do with the alleged real life Illuminati.
Well GW turned my head for a second at least :p

Kiro
14-07-2005, 14:37
Doesn't it defeat the very purpose of the Dark Side that people could master it without falling prey to it. I don't mean using it


Ah, but that's the interesting thing, because it doesn't. Before I continue with this, I'd like to know Brusilov, how do you think the Imperium could ever defeat Chaos?

Brusilov
14-07-2005, 15:36
If the Imperium keeps up as it is doing, it's certainly not going to defeat Chaos. A war against Chaos cannot be won on the battlefield.

As you know, I'm a big fan of the Star Child fluff and for me this is the solution. The SC is the polar opposite of Chaos, he is an agent of Law. When it is born it will go on to battle Chaos.
In order for mortals to survive in the material universe, there must be balance between Law and Chaos. That balance can either be obtained through confrontation, as is the case today, the endless war of the Imperium and Chaos, or it can be brought about through the cooperation/fusion of these polar opposites.
Thus the Star Child will not try to destroy the Chaos Gods, but to absorb them into himself, thus becoming something entirely different, an entity of both Law and Chaos that will pacify the imbalance of the warp and allow the emergence of Mankind as a full psychic race.

Kiro
14-07-2005, 15:48
And that's what I'm talking about!
It's been stated that trying to destroy chaos is like trying to destroy your own shadow. Conquering the darkness within yourself, and seeking balance, that's the way to do it. These characters in the SW universe basically practice the same thing, it's all about enlightenment and balance, and that is why I say not everyone who goes radical turns to chaos. It is true that in the SW universe there are those who've tried to find balance but turn to the Dark Side. Just as there are those who try to master Chaos in 40k, but instead let it master them. But equally true, there are those who've succeeded in trying to conquer the darkness.

Brusilov
14-07-2005, 15:59
Oh, definitely, but it takes a really special breed of people to survive the predations of Chaos. To become an Illuminati one undergoes probably the most horrifying experience of the 40k universe, sharing your mind with a daemon. It's an insidious disease that attacks you at your weakest, it's like your own subconscious mind advising you, pointing out different ways to do things, easier ways to whatever you may desire. It is a slow process to the point where one might not realise there's someone else in their mind until the daemon can come in full force.
And that would instantly drive most people mad and the daemon would subsequently devour their soul. If you can resist the initial onslaught, you'd have to find a way to drive it out of your mind, without frying your brains on top of that.

It's much easier to stand on either extreme, than to walk the fine line between the two, balancing these poles, each trying to attract you.
In SW, most Force users stand on these polar ends, but that's because SW is very different from 40k. SW is about a struggle between good and evil (as embodied with the two Sides of the Force), it is not a struggle to maintain a careful balance between two things that are necessary to a meaningful life, although I've come to reconsider this position of late on SW. After all, Darth Vader in annihilating the Jedi Order and subsequently putting an end to the current Sith line has allowed the balance to move freely again.

Kiro
14-07-2005, 16:02
SW is about a struggle between good and evil (as embodied with the two Sides of the Force), it is not a struggle to maintain a careful balance between two things that are necessary to a meaningful life

Erm, that's why I brought Star Wars into this, because it's exactly about balance, and I ain't talking about the prequel trilogy :p


although I've come to reconsider this position of late on SW. After all, Darth Vader in annihilating the Jedi Order and subsequently putting an end to the current Sith line has allowed the balance to move freely again.

I don't mean to hijack this thread with a Star Wars debate, but I have to point out (as a die-hard Star Wars fanboy) that wiping out the Jedi had nothing to do with restoring balance to the force, it was only a by-product of his destiny...

Brusilov
14-07-2005, 19:25
I disagree, SW is not about balance IMHO. It has the western view that the good guys must win in the end, that evil has been thwarted. Moorcock truly spoke of balance, balance could mean destroying everything to re-establish the balance, defeating the Chaos gods to prevent them from taking over a world, but also fighting against the agents of Law. The Eternal Champion is the perfect example of a warrior of balance, fighting indiscrimentally for either side of this cosmic conflict in order to keep the fragile equilibrium that allow mortals to live meaningful and generally peaceful lives.
And this is not the case in SW, at least not in my opinion. SW has a clear cut good/evil dichotomy, the lines are blurred when it comes to Chaos and Law because both have as great a potential for evil.

Kiro
14-07-2005, 19:29
I'm not talking about the films when I mean "balance", since we obviously see no force-users who attempt to find balance (aside from Dooku). I'm referring to the New Jedi Order series of books, when I talk about balance, since it's pretty much what we're talking about.

Who's the Eternal Champion? :confused:

Brusilov
14-07-2005, 19:42
I stopped reading Star Wars novels when it got to the Jedi New Order. I could not take it anymore. Incidently, after a nice cure of Michael Moorcock, I returned to the 40k universe after over five years of pause (basically the whole 2nd Ed.).

Here is some info on the Eternal Champion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_Champion) . I would strongly advise reading a few Moorcock novels since, with Frank Herbert, he gave a lot of inspiration to the early 40k universe and their influence can still be strongly felt to this day.

Kiro
14-07-2005, 21:54
I stopped reading Star Wars novels when it got to the Jedi New Order. I could not take it anymore.

Well, it's one of those love/hate things, but unlike most of the other Star Wars EU, the NJO has the stamp of canon from Lucas.


Here is some info on the Eternal Champion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_Champion) . I would strongly advise reading a few Moorcock novels since, with Frank Herbert, he gave a lot of inspiration to the early 40k universe and their influence can still be strongly felt to this day.

Sounds interesting, yet strangely not. I don't know, I like the sound of the concept, but the names of the characters sounded an alarm in my head :p

stormtrooper154
15-07-2005, 20:01
Wow!!! this is my first post on here too by the way.

i was thinking of doing a chaos army (iron warriors, nurgle or fallen angels) but reading these posts has pointed me tothe relictors. thanks!!! :evilgrin:

Brusilov
15-07-2005, 20:09
Welcome aboard stormtrooper ;) And glad we could inspire you to make a Renegade Space Marine army...

What's wrong with the names of the different incarnations of the Eternal Champion?

Kiro
15-07-2005, 21:07
What's wrong with the names of the different incarnations of the Eternal Champion?

I don't know, they just sound so...generic, so pop. It just makes the story sound cheesy. I'm not saying I'm basing the entirety of the book, I just feel a little warded away...