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ultima_eldar
07-12-2006, 23:23
I have been doing some reading up on the spartans as I found them very interesting this year in history class and ive found alot of ties to the high elf culture and background these are the things i have seen:

-sparta had 2 kings, ulthuan has the pheonix king and the everqueen
-sparta had a gerousia also called council of elders, ulthuan has a council something along the same lines
-spartans highly trained in the phalanx, considered the best army in greece and the highelves have some of the best disciplined troops ie. fight in 3 ranks
-spartans believed themselves to be superior to all other greeks, high elves think the same way
-both are highly conservative eventually leads to spartas down fall
-both are highly elite, you couldn't gain spartan citizenship you just were a spartan
-leonidas holds the pass of thermopylae though being vastly outnumbered so that the rest of greece could rally, Aenarion holds off chaos long enough so Caledor can suck the worst of it away.

so what do you guys think? Personally i feel the main inspiration of the highelves was Sparta, what do you guys feel influenced the high elven theme?

NakedFisherman
07-12-2006, 23:45
They're more ancient Athenian. A Spartan influence is a bit too warlike for the High Elves.

505
08-12-2006, 00:06
i have no life

welcome to the club with my armies and my son what else do I have hehe

Move Fast Hit Low
08-12-2006, 00:19
if you present it that way then yeah it can seem like that, but it can also be swayed to the Romans for example most of the time rome was ruled by the two consuls

ultima_eldar
08-12-2006, 02:33
ah thats true but it seems that the everqueen and the pheonix king have alittle more control than a consul. And the whole part Athenian fits in too because the high elves are known for their navy and their fine art so more of an amalgamation of Greece. I still find it strangely close to be more than coincidence especially the aenarion/leonidas connection, this also raises questions at will the next armybook for high elves take them back to their roots because i heard in previous editions high elves weren't made to be the goody two shoes and had alittle more grit and considering the entire background has gotten darker maybe this is the path that the not so nice high elves will be going down...

NakedFisherman
08-12-2006, 02:54
welcome to the club with my armies and my son what else do I have hehe

Apparently a co-worker decided to have fun on my account. :eek:

Negativemoney
08-12-2006, 04:24
I think that the Roman theme would fit the High Elves better than a spartan theme. Just the way that the High Elf army is structured makes more sense to do it with a Roman theme. For starters you have intregue at court which is more in line of Roman Philosophy than Greek. Second the structure of the High Elf war host has more similarites to Roman style military combat than Spartan.

Just some food for thought.

Gorbad Ironclaw
08-12-2006, 08:16
Spartans doesn't seem to really fit High Elves. There is nothing like the master/slaves problem that also was a feature of Spartan society. Or the martial code, or the harsh training from childhood or anything of that sort. So while it might have a few similarities, and might have borrowed some ideas from there, I don't think it's really heavily influenced by them, or based on them at all.

zodgrim
08-12-2006, 08:57
For those that aren't history buffs, the High Elf realm is right out of old Anglo-saxon England. This would be before Alfred the Great unified the seperate kingdoms into modern day England.

At on time, what is now England was divided into seven Anglo-Saxon kingdoms called the Heptarchy. A High King was elected from the seven seperate kings. (Just as the High Elves do.) The Anglo-Saxons also had a militia system called the fyrd. (Just as the High Elves do.) And the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms were on an island. (Just as Ulthuan is)

If you read into the Anglo-Saxons, you will see the similarities. This was just off the top of my head.;)

Oh and don't forget the Silmarilion too.

505
08-12-2006, 10:15
and their wearing kilts too..albiet metal ones

Fhoen
08-12-2006, 10:23
For those that aren't history buffs, the High Elf realm is right out of old Anglo-saxon England. This would be before Alfred the Great unified the seperate kingdoms into modern day England.

At on time, what is now England was divided into seven Anglo-Saxon kingdoms called the Heptarchy. A High King was elected from the seven seperate kings. (Just as the High Elves do.) The Anglo-Saxons also had a militia system called the fyrd. (Just as the High Elves do.) And the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms were on an island. (Just as Ulthuan is)

If you read into the Anglo-Saxons, you will see the similarities. This was just off the top of my head.;)

Oh and don't forget the Silmarilion too.

Word!
i like this more then roman empire or greek empire don't ask me why , i just do

Arhalien
08-12-2006, 12:16
Maybe ancient Greek in general, but definately not Spartan. The Spartans enslaved all their neighbours, killed off all those considered too weak, and geared their entire society towards war. Spartan soldier were full time professionals, Elves are part-time militia. Other Greek states are far more similar, with their part time troops made up of all those abel to fight, and the defensive role that they played in the Greek military (which consisted of little else than their hoplites).

However, it isn;t really wise to try and draw too many comparisions, as this is a FANTASY game, and the designers probably usued many sources to create the race. The Anglo Saxon one sounds interesting, this could be very interesting to watch.

Sleazy
08-12-2006, 12:28
the games designers have admitted that each race has a real world parallel. In some WD or other they actually stated that greenskins are Scottish!

The Blue Knight
08-12-2006, 13:36
I have to agree with Gorbad and Arhalien.

The Spartans were an extremely paranoid bunch of full-time soldiers (even that word is a little weak in their case) always on high alert, and subjecting themselves and thier neighbors to a strict and rigid lifestyle of denial (they did not even like the idea of money). I can't imagine the high-elves sending their sons to the aggoge academy (sp?)at age 6 or 7and practicing a lifestyle of 'Spartan' denial of pleasures. It is just too un-Elven.

Additionally, the Spartans disliked the 'unmanly' distance weapons of battle, such as bows for which elves place a hoigh regard. The Spartans left this if at all to the non-citizens.

Besides I can't imagine what the average Spartan would think of a woman fighting next to him in the battle line. :eek:

The Blue Knight

Arhalien
08-12-2006, 16:31
Do women fight next to men in the High Elf battle line? Anyway, women were held in high regard in Sparta, only not as warriors. THey had a high degree of freedom relative to the period, and could own property. They were primarily mothers, and as such were highly important in Spartan society, being necessary for the creation of more perfect warriors.

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
08-12-2006, 17:34
Hellenistic Greeks under and after Alexander is more likely. Note the high elven emphasis upon 'Hight' culture; that is, art, poetry, music, etc. Plus their world-wide trading fleet and masses of wealth. Spartans used iron bars for currency, and discouraged artisans (even armor and weapons were made to a very utilitarian standard). Hellenistic Greeks used the phalanx, as well as heavy cavalry (which the spartans completely ignored). Also, note the fact that while Sparta had two Kings, and the Elves have a King and a Queen, the Queen only represents the spiritual side of the Elves. The Phoenix King is the sole 'ruler' of Ulthuan. Also, the Hellenistic Greeks recognized the limited sovereignity of the city states, much in the same way that Ulthuan recognizes the limited autonomy of the Kingdoms, and allows them to have princes, rulers and governors. The Spartans ruled their empire from Sparta. Everyone else was a slave, primarily. Spartan warriors were full time soldiers and slave holders; Elven levies are made up of citizen soldiers drawn upon in times of war, not unlike the Hoplite levies of the Greeks. Not to mention the High Elven emphasis on stoic philosophy, championed by the Hellenistic-era Greeks. So, no, the High Elves are not really based upon Sparta at all.
Cheers.

PS- The Tolkienic influence is also very important. After all, he developed the initial idea of High Elves. Before him (and even in some of his writings) elves represented faeries, which were like nature spirits or gnomes (without beards). Tolkien was greatly influenced by the Anglo-Saxon tradition. In fact, that's why he wrote his works; to create a definitively Anglo-Saxon mythology (See 'The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien' for more on this).

Einholt
08-12-2006, 21:48
HE = Magic Wielding Panzy's

Spartans = THE OWNAGE.

Theres no correlation.

ultima_eldar
09-12-2006, 03:50
thank you for the info on the anglo-saxons Zodgrim I myself am very interested in history and jumped to conclusions based upon very narrow minded thoughts. The only thing i find interesting is i was under the impression from the fiction that i have read that the Everqueen had as much influence in Elven society and politics as the pheonix king acting kind of as two weights balancing out a scale.

If any of you would know what the main themes of the armies are or can correct me i would be very much appreciative, I find the background to armies and their basis in the real world highly interesting.

Empire-holy Roman Empire/Renaissance Italy
Brettonia-France and Britain middle ages, possibly pre war of the roses?
beasts of chaos-Hannibal behind Roman lines?
hordes of chaos- vikings/barbarians(mongols, khans, etc.)
Lizardmen- Aztecs
orcs and goblins- scottish
Skaven- persia?(numberless hordes, political intigue and back stabbings in gov.)
Tomb Kings- Egypt
Vampire Counts- eaterns europe, run of the mill vampires
dwarfs- norse mythology
high elves- anglo-saxon/roman/hellenistic greece
wood elves- Britons/celts/gaels
dark elves- not too sure could this represent roman empire where high elves represent roman republic? would make their ties and polarities even more interesting...

thank you all for the help as ive said i find this type of thing very interesting and i myself want to become a history teacher so any real world historical knowledge is just as welcome on this thread :)

-ultima_eldar

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
11-12-2006, 02:16
Tilea is more so Renaissance Italy than the Empire is. You're correct in your H.R.E. assumption, however. Bretonnia is *Distinctly* pre-War of the Roses. It's more so the French during the Hundred Years War. And, the Norse are the Vikings, not the Hordes of Chaos (who are not really very Mongol or Khanate in light of the fact that they don't employ any horse archers- The Hobgoblins more effectively fill this role *see Oglah Khan's WolfBoys*) Dwarfs have indeed taken on a Norse connotation in the more recent additions, though they also have a distinctly scottish flair as well. Von Carsteins are a blend of Vampiric myths and Eastern European society-types. Your ideas are good, but they necessitate a bit of refinement. Plus, this type of thread has been done to death.
Cheers.

zodgrim
11-12-2006, 15:02
thank you for the info on the anglo-saxons Zodgrim I myself am very interested in history and jumped to conclusions based upon very narrow minded thoughts. The only thing i find interesting is i was under the impression from the fiction that i have read that the Everqueen had as much influence in Elven society and politics as the pheonix king acting kind of as two weights balancing out a scale.


The importance of the Everqueen, I believe, is based on Galadriel from the Lord of the Rings. In Lorien, Celeborn and Galadriel rule together. But Galadriel has the elven ring and thus magical might.;)

Griefbringer
11-12-2006, 15:29
In some WD or other they actually stated that greenskins are Scottish!

I guess you are thinking about the infamous and usually mis-interpreted Beasts of Chaos designer's notes from Gav Thorpe.

I would not really take it too literally - what it essentially said is that the orcs are like the Scots in that they descend from their highland homes to raid more civilised folks.

Or it migh just be about Gav having a strange view of the Scots - or perhaps I am misinformed, and real Scots actually paint themselves green, run around shouting Waargh and make haggis out of anything smaller than themselves! :evilgrin: