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PrUpLeHaZe
08-07-2005, 22:31
It says (or hints anyway) that the mechanicus is hiding a c'tan on mars and that it is the real machine god. if the rest of the imperium found out about this wouldnt it just make the entire empire fall apart. It sounds like that is more of a danger than the necrons themselves. Plus the necrons are finally nwaking up too, so how do you think the necros rank against the nids and chaos?

athamas
08-07-2005, 22:49
they were hinting at it for a while.. then it apears as if GW realised what a bad idea that would be to have a c'tan apear on mars!

plus having a c'tan that close to earth would certianly hurt it due to the large amounts of psichic energy around...


there is one c'tan in a dyson sphere, and the other is lost outside in deep space i think...


something different is lurking on mars!
atleast that was the last report i heard!

Lord-Warlock
08-07-2005, 22:57
There's a C'Tan on Mars allright - the Deceiver, posing as Magos Egal and trying to have the Noctis Labirynthus (the place where the Thing On Mars is hiding, be it the Dragon or otherwise) sealed with ferrocrete.

As for the Dragon being the Machine God - most of the Mechanicus worship the Emperor in his aspect as the Omnissiah, but before His coming the Mechanicus worshipped something else - the Dragon, apparently. Some still worship it, knowingly or not, and the Iron Hands are definitely on the brink of going C'Tan-lovers (and then there's the rest of the Tech-Marines, all of whom study on Mars).

Kensai X
08-07-2005, 23:07
Makes me wonder where the Primarchs Vulkan and Ferrus Manus are while this is happening as it's been hinted at they both went to Mars for some reason or another.

Kiro
08-07-2005, 23:12
Eh? Where is it hinted that Vulkan ended up on Mars? :wtf:

Lord-Warlock
08-07-2005, 23:17
Ferrus Manus I can believe, but Vulkan? Granted he was a blacksmith, but still...?

The pestilent 1
08-07-2005, 23:51
they both went to Mars for some reason or another.

went, not ended up.

personally, i reckon that there is a Necron superweapon on mars.
possibly, one that only the dragon itself can use, or that the Deceiver cant/wont for whatever reason.
(to explain why the Deceiver wants it buried)
would also explain why one of the other C'tan (Nightbringer?) sent those ships to mars.

wilting_laughter
09-07-2005, 00:11
There's a C'Tan on Mars allright - the Deceiver, posing as Magos Egal and trying to have the Noctis Labirynthus (the place where the Thing On Mars is hiding, be it the Dragon or otherwise) sealed with ferrocrete.


Where did you get THAT info?

Whats on Mars? Well the overhead images of necron pyramid ruins in the necron codex are clearly based on the pyramids on Mars (the real ones).

I think its the Dragon on Mars.

Ferrus Manus *might* have been taken there after his death and his hands were coated in what was *probably* living metal which came from a "silver wrym" which *might* have been a c'tan (in a weakened state I would think if a primarch could beat it). This living metal *might* be part of a secret AM experiment which, knowingly or unknowingly is building a new physical form for said c'tan (ie the Dragon).

This raises an interesting question; are the remains of Ferrus Manus also tied up in said experiment, and, that being the case; could this tie in nicely with the Iron Hands being c'tan friendly when the Dragon wakes up?

mirakel_jocke
09-07-2005, 00:59
It says (or hints anyway) that the mechanicus is hiding a c'tan on mars and that it is the real machine god. if the rest of the imperium found out about this wouldnt it just make the entire empire fall apart. It sounds like that is more of a danger than the necrons themselves. Plus the necrons are finally nwaking up too, so how do you think the necros rank against the nids and chaos?

Well let me make a summary of what I think will happen:

Imperium: To many enemies, will eventially fall
Eldar: They are dying and will soon perish, so they are not a threat
Dark Eldar: To weak. Will die/flee
Chaos: To few to make any real damage when the Imperium falls
Tau: To far away to do a thing. Will die because they are to far away from help
Tyranids: Will eat everything except Necrons becasue they live on dead worlds Or will be driven off by the Necrons
Necrons: Will go into stasis once more since the 'nids will eat everything or Necrons will drive off the 'nids
Orks: Will never die, they are just to many and they spread themselves to quickly. Although I dont think that they will take over the galaxy, they will merely be a leftover race that never dies and doesn't pose a big threat

Well thats what I think will happen (more or less) !

/Mirakel_Jocke

Eldacar
09-07-2005, 03:17
Eldar: They are dying and will soon perish, so they are not a threat
Actually, they'll flee into the Webway.


Plus the necrons are finally nwaking up too, so how do you think the necros rank against the nids and chaos?
I think the Necrons are ranked up pretty high as a threat. However, the Tyranids are more of a threat to the Necrons, since the 'Nids are eating all of the biomass that the C'Tan want for themselves.


plus having a c'tan that close to earth would certianly hurt it due to the large amounts of psichic energy around...
For the record, I think that it is the Dragon on Mars. But that, athamas, could be a very good reason why it hasn't woken up. All the psychic energy is keeping it dormant.

Instigation
09-07-2005, 03:23
they were hinting at it for a while.. then it apears as if GW realised what a bad idea that would be to have a c'tan apear on mars!

something different is lurking on mars!
atleast that was the last report i heard!


I'm curious what did you mean by this. The last information that i read regarding this seemed to strongly suggest that the dragon is on mars. However, I have always thought of that as a fluff blunder. So if you have read somewhere more recently information that contradicts this could u maybe post it up here or direct me to the source Athamas?

Also to clear something up: The mechanicus worship the "Machine God" and like all things in 40k because there is a large concentration of belief, then it can be argued that this in turn creates this consiouosness in the warp - meaning the machine god might actually be a very real warp sentience. However, some techpriests have discovered the Dragon on mars (if indeed thats what it is), but whatever it is they have began to worship IT as the Machine God - wrongly. As such it is only a very small minority of techpriests that actually worship the dragon as the machine god and if they were to be discovered openly then i believe their would be internecine warfare within the mechanicus.

Khaine's Messenger
09-07-2005, 03:24
if the rest of the imperium found out about this wouldnt it just make the entire empire fall apart.

There are many dark and nasty secrets, the revelation of any one of which would utterly crush the Imperium's will to live another millenium. Thankfully, few people are capable of comprehending, nevermind discovering, a significant number of these secrets, many of which would probably be mind-blasting to even those politicians that consider themselves to be within the Imperiums most inner of inner circles. The central problem with the Dragon being the Machine God is whether or not the Mechanicus as a whole worships it as such...and it seems that any such faction would be within the minority, if not in the cloak-and-dagger realm with tendrils that may or may not extend to the highest authorities.

It probably would make the AdMech schism, though. Again, that is. I'm doubting it would cause the Imperium to collapse into civil war, but the Mechanicus would be having some pretty turbulent times....

Of course, if the Dragon woke up and started running amok, I suppose there are bigger problems than petty ideological concerns, and the AdMech could whistle softly whilst sweeping any political fallout discretely under a convenient ice flow.

PrUpLeHaZe
09-07-2005, 03:51
There was also a little fluff/ sidestory in the necron codex where a callidus assassin tries to kill a planetaary govenor or something and it turns out to be the diceiver, so he might be somewhere other than mars entirly, probably gaining power (eating a sun maybe?) because he was weakened well in stasis.
I also think that the nids will be destroyed because either
A: The c'tan destroy them completely because they are alive but have no souls or
B: The c'tan somehow eats the hivemind or something weird like that.

Could it also be possible that the orks actually make an effort to fight the necrons instead of being spread all over the place? They were actually made to fight them by tyhe old ones and so might have an instinct to fight them or something. any thoughts on that? :confused:

Lord Balor
09-07-2005, 04:36
There was also a little fluff/ sidestory in the necron codex where a callidus assassin tries to kill a planetaary govenor or something and it turns out to be the diceiver, so he might be somewhere other than mars entirly, probably gaining power (eating a sun maybe?) because he was weakened well in stasis.

The Deciever and/or Laughing God have 'both' been very busy with plots and schemes and it would be feasible that multiple key figures within the galaxy over time have been attributed to one of the two in some way or another. By this i mean at one stage it may have been the govenor but now could be posing as just about anyone and be just about anywhere. There's some serious Cypher attributes at work here, such is their nature to confuse and decieve.


I also think that the nids will be destroyed because either
A: The c'tan destroy them completely because they are alive but have no souls or
B: The c'tan somehow eats the hivemind or something weird like that.

The Nids are simply one entity with each hive fleet and critter acting as a cell might in our own bodies. Currently the necrons lack the manpower to destroy the Nids and it has often been the matter of debates on which of the two will likely survive. The Necrons are waking up and are highly advanced, but the Nids are numberless and adapt, evolve to overcome any enemy they face. This match up is 'the' battle of the titans as the two greatest forces in the galaxy will at some stage clash over the Biomass offered by the Universe. As for Option B, that is the most unlikey situation as the hive mind is not a physical Brain Bug but the whole Consciousness of the Tyranid 'race'. It can be argued that The Hive Mind is currently the most powerful psychic entity around as it has the ability to block out even the light of the Emperor and make standard Warp travel all but impossible. As such i doubt that a Ctan would suffer to be near it.


Could it also be possible that the orks actually make an effort to fight the necrons instead of being spread all over the place? They were actually made to fight them by tyhe old ones and so might have an instinct to fight them or something. any thoughts on that? :confused:

If the Orks were to Consider the Necrons aa greater threat or more likely a greater fight than that posed by Armageddon, then yes, they would swarm to Necron worlds. What you have to remember is that the Eldar were designed to be the successors of the Old Ones and thus fight the Necrons while the Orks seem to be a bandaid solution to buy time. The Eldar failed, but the Orks have grown to be possibly an unstoppable horde were they to ever untie. So far the greatest uniting factor of the Orks is the Waaagh! which led them to armageddon. However this was not on a galatic scale, but if the Necron threat was on a galatic scale....

Kensai X
09-07-2005, 05:04
Well isn't there fluff on how th Tyranids avoid the Dyson Sphere and stay clear of it.

Also where is the Hive Mind exactly is it one giant floating bug in space? The Warp? The collective consious of an entire race? I get confused easily...

Xisor
09-07-2005, 05:27
Well isn't there fluff on how th Tyranids avoid the Dyson Sphere and stay clear of it.

Also where is the Hive Mind exactly is it one giant floating bug in space? The Warp? The collective consious of an entire race? I get confused easily...

1- No. No fluff on it, just that they do.

2- No-one knows. It is supposed that it is the entire concsciousness,GW *could* go dont the easy path of making it a special character at some point( :eyebrows: ), but everyth8in so far points to 'entire con. of Tyranid race'.

Lastly, and IMO most importantly

Where did this Vulkan and Mars connection come from? As a long term Salamanders player, and 'would like to consider myself a veteran', I can't say I've seen anything on it. Don't be daft yhooo dnam n00b w311 pwnage ur A55!111!11one!11eleven!!!! Sorry. Carried away.

Xisor

Lord Balor
09-07-2005, 05:30
Well isn't there fluff on how th Tyranids avoid the Dyson Sphere and stay clear of it.

The Tyranids do avoid the Dyson shpere and also Necron Tomb Worlds. Whether this is because of the complete lack of Bio-mass or they somehow sense whats inside is anyone guess. I don't believe there's ever been a major confrontation between the Nids and the 'crons to date. If there has, i would love to get a hold of it, but it is only a matter of time before hide and seek leads to push and shove.


Also where is the Hive Mind exactly is it one giant floating bug in space? The Warp? The collective consious of an entire race? I get confused easily...

The Hive Mind is not a physical bug and hense cannot truely be destroyed in the materialistic sense. It is indeed the collective consious of the entire race but not in the sense of the Chaos Gods. It is more of an overwhelming intellect that *is* the Tyranid Race. A man is one person with one mind, but his cells are numberless and spread out to form his body and all act acordingly to his will. So it is with the Tyranids, Each creature, Each fleet can be seen as the different cells that make up the one being that is the Tyranid Race. The intergalactic will that guides them, that commands them and Binds them is what has become known as the Hive Mind. Hope that clears it up, although i could be wrong.

*Rushes out to check 3 Tyranid Codexes*

Edit: Ferrus Manus has been speculated to reside on Mars (Or whatever's left of him :p ), but i don't believe theres been any offical hints about Vulkan. If you ask me, its one of those GW "we'll never tell" situations which makes the Primarchs such a good read. If everything was a definite, then it would loose the whole mystery and mythology that has grown 10,000 years after the actual events.

Bmaxwell
09-07-2005, 06:02
Thats one of the best explanations i have ever heard for the hive mind.

aslo do we know what the dragon will look like? will it be a "dragon" or something else.

something With intellacanie is defnatily on mars but what. and if its a c'tan why hasn't it been realized the necrons and the c'tan have had there chance for that.

Im all most thinking that its some how realted to the warp but for some reason is stuck in this world? i dont think that makes much sense but mabye it could be a sort of warp anchor that holds the warp to the real world.

which by the way do we know what holds the warp to the real world?

Xisor
09-07-2005, 06:58
Not to divert the thred too far:

"Good explanation on the Hive Mind"

Anyhow, back to Vulkan. It's not as if it's not officially confirmed(in that case), it's not even speculated on 'officially'(unlike Ferrus Manus). Vulkan disappeared 'some thousand years after the legions founding'(which if I recall correctly is close to the exact text). From that, nothing else is known. if you want speculation:

1- he went for a pint
2- he fell asleep. For 10,000+ years
3- he went for a pint and fell asleep for 10,000+ years
4- he fell asleep for 10,000+ years then went for a pint
5- he is awaiting the 'great battle against chaos'
6- he went to save Jaghatai Khan from the DE(My personal Fav. considering his own[only] noted link to anyone 'really'- ie he fought Eldar Pirates off of his home single(double) handedly)
7- he died from a grot blasta and the Inquisition covered it up
8- he, as the last of the Primarchs still 'locomotive' and doing things, suddenly disappeared one day and was never seen again. Not just 'abducted by chaos', but *really* no-one knows what happened! One moment tea and cornflakes, next moment...gone! :eek:
9- he fell down the toilet seat
10- Xisor could go on for hours like this
11- but feels he shouldn't. :angel:

Xisor

Eldacar
09-07-2005, 08:56
10- Xisor could go on for hours like this
11- but feels he shouldn't.
Eldacar agrees.


aslo do we know what the dragon will look like? will it be a "dragon" or something else.
We don't know (or at least I don't). You can think of it as a giant metallic dragon if you wish. That's how I envision it.


Im all most thinking that its some how realted to the warp but for some reason is stuck in this world? i dont think that makes much sense but mabye it could be a sort of warp anchor that holds the warp to the real world.

which by the way do we know what holds the warp to the real world?
I didn't understand that. The Warp is another reality coexisting with the 40K universe. There are, at places, links between the two, but there is nothing holding them together; they are intertwined and interdependent.

The pestilent 1
09-07-2005, 14:32
the Dragon is apparently called that because he bears a semblance to the eldars "Void dragon" from their mythos.
so it said in that cripple and the dragon article anyways.

Wraith
09-07-2005, 16:49
The Dragon is 'The Void Dragon' -- he is said dragon of Eldar myth.

'The Void Dragon' is his full name.


Here is a post from very similar previous (portent) discussions -


The Adeptus Mechanicus is permeated with many, many different sects, cults, and groups and even lone individuals may have better understanding of 'the truth' than others -

To my mind these groups exist within the Adeptus Mechanicus (going by the fluff and my own reasoning) -

1. AM who worship the Machine God and the Emperor as his incarnation [Most of the general members].

2. AM who worship the Void Dragon thinking he is 'the machine god' [Dragon Cult members].

3. AM who worship the Void Dragon as the 'true machine god' rather than some warp power or the Emperor [possibly high ranking Dragon cult members].

4. AM who know the Void Dragon is a C'tan and still worship him as the 'true' machine god [Lone rebel AM much like the one hinted in the novel Nightbringer].

5. AM who know 'something' is going on but not exactly what... [Probably young low level but 'smart' AM and maybe older AM who the Dragon cult members class as to dangerous to be 'inducted'].

6. AM expolrators who know 'a lot' about the Necrontyr and their Star Gods and are slowly piecing together the 'puzzle' [possibly working with Inquisitors but not necessarily].

Marty D
11-07-2005, 22:44
how great would a campaign be with all this stuff incorporated into one

the backdrop; clash of the titans - necrons vs. tyranids

civil war; the adeptus mechanicus split in 2 when the dragon awakes to lead his necrons against the tyranids

chaos and orks thrown in there randomly of course

oh yea - and the tau empire expands a little bit too


wait up; what did ferrus manus fight to get his metal arms? a 'dragon'? maybe when he threw that 'dragon' (lets say it was 'the' dragon for all intended purposes) into lava or whatever he did some of the necrodermis got melted onto him and the 'dragon' disspeared or something

Marty D
11-07-2005, 22:45
and of course this lets the GW team make up those adeptus mechanicus rules they've been dying to pump out + new models of course

sulla
11-07-2005, 23:12
and of course this lets the GW team make up those adeptus mechanicus rules they've been dying to pump out + new models of course

:) Well I don't know if they are dying to put out rules but certainly, an AM list that works like the inquisitor lists (Small all-metal list that can ally to other imp lists) would have huge potential to flesh out the 40K universe further.