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Brizzle
09-12-2006, 04:01
I recently heard that striking scorpions were an all male aspect (as banshees are all female). I had been hoping to convert up a female S Scorps exarch, but I am far to fluff-conscious to do this if all scorps are male. Does anyone know for sure?

viokni
09-12-2006, 04:02
there are male Banshees and female scorps

Gutlord Grom
09-12-2006, 04:13
All Eldar walk the pat, who knows were it goes.....

Brizzle
09-12-2006, 04:23
Excellent. Now, I will walk the path of heavy conversion for my All-Female-Exarchs Eldar force. Thanks a lot!

azimaith
09-12-2006, 04:24
Eldar can be an aspect thats female or male, doesn't matter. The aspect refers to what part of the mythos it spawns from, not from the actual sex of the aspect warrior.

Kriegsherr
09-12-2006, 08:38
oi, that sounds like an awful lot of conversion work... good luck!

And pics please if you are finished :)

Onisuzume
09-12-2006, 08:42
I wonder if anyone has converted a male Howling Banshee...

Setrus
09-12-2006, 08:52
I wonder if anyone has converted a male Howling Banshee...

No...not as fun. :p

Actually that would look pretty neat, wonder how one would go about it? Green stuff galore and make a really bulky banshee? Seems to conflict with both the image of the banshee and the eldar body-type.
Anyone with ideas? Should one use a scorpion perhaps and switch heads? Sounds hard...

All female-exarch eldar force? Sounds pretty neat. What's the fluff behind it? Sisters who all fell to the lure of the exarch together?

Quin 242
09-12-2006, 10:38
GW really misses the boat when they make new lines.. they could just as easily make one model in 5 the opposite sex and everyone would be happy.

Like with every new plastic set.. how hard would it be to make 1 female body like they did with the eldar guardians and the dark eldar warriors?

I mean obviously not the best idea for marines and Orcs and necrons but.. you get the idea...

Onisuzume
09-12-2006, 10:42
I mean obviously not the best idea for marines and Orcs and necrons but.. you get the idea...
Female necrons, now that's an great idea. :D

Setrus
09-12-2006, 10:43
Orcs...necrons!?
What would you do with the necrons? Make them shorter with wider hips or something? :D

*Imagines necrons with candlelight dinner and one wearing tux and the other a red dress.*

*imagines the necron with the dress slapping the other*

HAHAHAHAHA!!! :D

But yeah you're right there Quin. How about the cadian models? Seeing as how they're wearing combat fatigues they could just made a head and it would be good, but noooooo! :p

primarch16
09-12-2006, 10:47
No offence but isnt making a female eldar just sculpting breasts on the model?

Rikkjourd
09-12-2006, 11:21
No offence but isnt making a female eldar just sculpting breasts on the model?

My thought exactly. Slap on two drops of green stuff, file down any kind of cod piece or really bulky shoulders.

Quin 242
09-12-2006, 11:26
for a manly sort of Jill sure...
Honestly, in armor, they would be nearly indistiguishable unless they CHOSE to have breast cups.. most likely would be a better idea to tape them down and snuggle into a standard set of armor as Setrus suggested.

But there are quite a few things that would be different if the scale were larger... wider hips, shorter (in most cases) and in most cases thinner in arm and legs (assuming they are in good shape)

That leads me to.. I'd like to see some overweight chaps and lasses :) Yeah they are less likely due to battlefield conditions but.. I've been in the Navy and I've seen some fat bastards that could still make the physical requirements.
And I've seen some lard @$$ girls that can keep up with the boys just fine.

Dragonlv8
09-12-2006, 12:04
Heh female space marines lol.
Im pretty sure all banshees are female because thats what it says in my codex but it dosen't say anything about only male striking scorpions.

Try Again Bragg
09-12-2006, 12:17
The old Cadian Lieutenant had a bit of a gut on him.

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=301315&orignav=301117&ParentID=6194&GameNav=301115

Onisuzume
09-12-2006, 12:38
Heh female space marines lol.
Now there's an idea.

Im pretty sure all banshees are female because thats what it says in my codex but it dosen't say anything about only male striking scorpions.
Codex: Imperialis says that most but not all howling banshees are female, althrough any warrior aspects can be male or female.

Brizzle
09-12-2006, 19:15
All female-exarch eldar force? Sounds pretty neat. What's the fluff behind it? Sisters who all fell to the lure of the exarch together?

Mostly it's just for fun. However, the craftworld I'm working on is very reverant of Lileath (the Eldar maiden goddess of dreams). I'm converting a female farseer from the bonesinger and a female Autarch. Just seemed like a fun thing to do.

Minister
09-12-2006, 19:18
That, and it looks about as plausable as an all-male force (which would include every 2nd edition army without Banshees in it, amongst other things).

insaniak
09-12-2006, 19:47
for a manly sort of Jill sure...
Honestly, in armor, they would be nearly indistiguishable unless they CHOSE to have breast cups..

Even out of armour, Elves in a lot of settings don't have a lot of physical difference between makes and females, aside from boobs.

Remember that Eldar aren't human. Human physiology won't necessarily apply.

Onisuzume
09-12-2006, 19:53
Remember that Eldar aren't human. Human physiology won't necessarily apply.
No, but it might make the females look better. ^^
Or at least less confusing.
I got an old picture of striking scorpion fighting the old-school tyranid warrior. (2nd ed rulebook page 25)
One of them had the helmet removed forcefully, and it's really hard to tell wether it's male or female. (face is visible, but the armour is rather hard to judge)

Bregalad
09-12-2006, 21:57
No offence but isnt making a female eldar just sculpting breasts on the model?

My thought exactly. Slap on two drops of green stuff, file down any kind of cod piece or really bulky shoulders.

Even out of armour, Elves in a lot of settings don't have a lot of physical difference between makes and females, aside from boobs.
Remember that Eldar aren't human. Human physiology won't necessarily apply.

Anyone is free to do any kind of bad sculturing. But if you compare the old and the new banshees, you will see that GW finally got the female Eldar anatomy right.

catdubh
10-12-2006, 15:31
The old Cadian Lieutenant had a bit of a gut on him.

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=301315&orignav=301117&ParentID=6194&GameNav=301115

I have this bloke converted, now has a storm bolter instead of the shotgun (which is no use to anyone). Known by friend and foe as "the fat bastard":)
Running joke is that when taking difficult terrain tests always role ones and two. Look the fat boys slowing them down again.:)

Arhalien
10-12-2006, 15:39
a female Autarch.

Female autarch? Which one is this?

edit: :o Sorry, misread the post, thought you meant you were converting with a female autarch model. Disregard this question, it is nonsense.

Kymar
10-12-2006, 15:51
Mostly it's just for fun. However, the craftworld I'm working on is very reverant of Lileath (the Eldar maiden goddess of dreams). I'm converting a female farseer from the bonesinger and a female Autarch. Just seemed like a fun thing to do.

Sounds like a fun idea and there is no fluff reason against either Eldar sex being apart of an aspect path. The only problem is the apperance of that aspect warrior and their armor. The Banshee aspect is based on a mythical figure that is female, so every warrior (male or female) will wear armor and decorations that are more femine. This is taken even to the point of gross exaggeration, to make the "character" of the aspect more clear (as people have said the breast cups on banshee's are rather unnecessary, or at least oversized).

It would be a nice balence to have some other aspects based on the female form, but technically it should male or female, not both at the same time. Perhaps though you could easily have a scropion without a helmet on and have it show a clearly female head, regardless of that the body type expressed by the armor.

As for guardian, farseers, warlocks, and Autarch's, I can see no problems with any of these being a mix of male and female forms, and frankly I'd encourage it. :)

Midknightwraith
10-12-2006, 15:53
I would think the easiest conversion to do Female/Male conversions for different aspects would be to use the guardians as a base, since the armor of all the following models is pretty close. Guardians, FireDragons, Banshees, Scorpions, DireAvengers, Swooping Hawks, DarkReapers. In most cases it is only a change of weapons and helmets + plus the addition of tassels along the legs and arms, which could be left off.

Not as cheap as just blotting on some Greenstuff, but probably would look pretty good, especially for Scorpions, Reapers. Male Banshees are just daft though.

bladestalker
10-12-2006, 16:34
Sounds like a fun idea and there is no fluff reason against either Eldar sex being apart of an aspect path. The only problem is the apperance of that aspect warrior and their armor. The Banshee aspect is based on a mythical figure that is female, so every warrior (male or female) will wear armor and decorations that are more femine. This is taken even to the point of gross exaggeration, to make the "character" of the aspect more clear (as people have said the breast cups on banshee's are rather unnecessary, or at least oversized).

I really have problems with this. I can understand the feminization of the banshee armor to reflect the trappings of a female mythical figure, but to have a male eldar wear armour with exagerated breast cups just flys in the face of all I believe the Eldar represent. Femine/unisex or heck whatever metrosexual is this week is one thing but to assume the visual look of the opposite sex to that degree is vaguely blasphemous.

Not Blasphemous in the extent that I or a Christian believe it violates my belief in God but to an Eldar sensibilities (IMHO). Tzeechians will warp thier outward form to attain secrets of the flesh and I think it would be anathema for an Eldar, especially one walking the path of an aspect warrior to do the same.

No male breast cups for me.

mistformsquirrel
10-12-2006, 16:44
You don't like manboobs?! <;_;>

(I keed! <,<)

bladestalker
10-12-2006, 18:30
nope.

got my own that I have to exercise off. :(

insaniak
10-12-2006, 19:48
But if you compare the old and the new banshees, you will see that GW finally got the female Eldar anatomy right.

If you compare the new Banshees and the new Fire Dragons (can't speak for the other new Aspects, as I don't have them) you'll notice that their body shapes are practically identical... except that the Banshees have boobs.

Likewise with the plastic Guardians. The only difference between male and female is that the females have a different chestplate.

The conclusion I draw from that is that GW intended their Eldar to be fairly androgynous, which is, as I mentioned, not uncommon for Elves.

luchog
10-12-2006, 20:28
I really have problems with this. I can understand the feminization of the banshee armor to reflect the trappings of a female mythical figure, but to have a male eldar wear armour with exagerated breast cups just flys in the face of all I believe the Eldar represent. Femine/unisex or heck whatever metrosexual is this week is one thing but to assume the visual look of the opposite sex to that degree is vaguely blasphemous.

Can't really buy that. Eldar are the most... decadent race in the galaxy. After living for many centuries, you're gonna try and do pretty much everything at some point. Are you really gonna claim there are no TG/TS/TV Eldar? They're not distorting their physical forms like Tzeenchians, merely wearing armour with exaggerated representations of a female character. I cannot see Eldar being that uptight. Are you sure you're not projecting your own homophobia issues?

insaniak
10-12-2006, 21:52
Are you really gonna claim there are no TG/TS/TV Eldar?

I would very much doubt there are any, at least since the Fall.

Given Slaanesh's depiction as a being with both male and female parts, I would expect their horror at their part in Slaanesh's creation to steer them away from any real blending of genders on a personal basis.

But that's just me. Who can say how Aliens would think about it?

Gen_eV
10-12-2006, 21:58
Tzeechians will warp thier outward form to attain secrets of the flesh and I think it would be anathema for an Eldar, especially one walking the path of an aspect warrior to do the same.

Well, it's not so much that, as simply wearing the traditional garb of a mythical figure. I personally feel that Eldar don't have any social stigmata or traditional gender-roles, and therefore that there's no concept of cross-dressing etc as they all wear the same clothes anyway. Therefore, wearing a female costume would be no weirder to an Eldar Male than it would be for them to wear a costume of any other form.

It's simply the nature of the character they're portraying at the time. All the Aspects are roles in a performance, in a similar way to how the Harlequins are, but not quite so extreme. Or at least, that's how I view it, so I tend to get a little annoyed at the idea of 'male' and 'female' eldar minis-you shouldn't be able to see the difference when they're in their armour.

scarletsquig
10-12-2006, 22:20
I always pictured the male banshee as some really fat guy that's in training, and somehow manages to squeeze his gut into the armour, but still has space for the man-boobs.

Eventually the corset-like effect of the armour gets rid of the gut, but the man-boobs remain :)

As an aside, most attempts at female conversions I've seen are laughable - they mostly involve slapping on 2 blobby green tits that don't even follow the shape of an actual breast because the creator doesn't have much experience with them... this isn't just confined to sculpting, there's a lot of artists out there that flat-out get the shape wrong. YES, the top section can start out looking incredibly saggy, it's fine as long as you have a well defined lower section. They are not bloody beachballs!

ragnarclaw
10-12-2006, 22:47
Will actually swaping the head or just buy the head bits solve the problem?

later :chrome:

downundercadet07
10-12-2006, 22:57
I'm going to go ahead and **** in everyone's cheerios and say "I don't like this idea, and I don't feel that it is well grounded in the fluff" The fluff notes that although most banshees are female, they are not all. The fluff makes NO such distinction that I have ever seen about the scorpions. This, combined with the information that only the physically STRONGEST and TOUGHEST eldar are able to walk the scorpion path, requires them to be an all-male aspect.

MarksmanCypher
10-12-2006, 23:05
I'm going to go ahead and **** in everyone's cheerios and say "I don't like this idea, and I don't feel that it is well grounded in the fluff" The fluff notes that although most banshees are female, they are not all. The fluff makes NO such distinction that I have ever seen about the scorpions. This, combined with the information that only the physically STRONGEST and TOUGHEST eldar are able to walk the scorpion path, requires them to be an all-male aspect.

The fluff also doesn't mention that the Scorpions are all male.

Are you telling me that if I did a female Autarch, I couldn't give it a mandiblaster and scorpion chainsword because it never trained as a Scorpion because it's female?!:confused:

There's no restriction. Just because it says "Physically strongest and toughest" doesn't mean that it has to be males:rolleyes:

I know girls who could whip anyone else I know with their hands tied behind their back. So don't just assume that when it says "strongest" and "toughest" that it can't be females :o

Plus, we're talking about Eldar here. We're not talking about humans. Why is it completely impossible for the Eldar to have a different physiology, as has been pointed out so many times, to humans? For all we know females develop just as much as males do in the Eldar society.

Bregalad
10-12-2006, 23:06
If you compare the new Banshees and the new Fire Dragons (can't speak for the other new Aspects, as I don't have them) you'll notice that their body shapes are practically identical... except that the Banshees have boobs.

That is not true. I have a mixed unit of 2nd and 4th edition Banshees (3rd ed Banshees are ugly and look too different). And the 4th edition ones have, frankly speaking, a bigger and nicely formed butt. Not compareable to the other, small hips of the Fire Dragons and such.

But cultural preferences and attention are drawn to different details of the human body, so I would guess you come from North America ;)

downundercadet07
10-12-2006, 23:20
Eldar are close enough to Human body composition to assume that the same rules apply. I say this because of live birth, nursing young, warm blood, hair, bilateral symmetry, yeah, there is alot in common.

MarksmanCypher-- I'm not telling you, or anyone else what you can and can't do. I don't care what you do, or how you do it. I said that I didn't think it was a good idea.

On another point, I don't care what kind of girls you know. Women aren't as strong as men across the board. I win. The strongest, toughest man is always, always, always going to be considerably stronger and considerably tougher than the strongest, toughest woman.

I don't think that you have ever served in a combat arms unit, maybe, but I doubt it. I don't know at what level you have competed in athletics. I've been in a combat arms unit, and competed against Justin Gatlin (google it) In these two fields were strength and toughness are more or less bywords for success, what gender do you think is exclusively represented? I win again. Look up gender norming, if you want more proof besides your 'tough' chick friends.

Also- I don't have it in front of me, but I think the old BGB said that scorps were all male. And I have never seen any evidence to the contrary, not that absense of evidence is evidence of absence, as Kage would say.

insaniak
10-12-2006, 23:43
The fluff makes NO such distinction that I have ever seen about the scorpions.

From the 2nd edition Codex: Eldar, and the Codex Imperialis:
"Most Howling Banshees are female, although any Warrior Aspects can be male or female"


While older fluff is often revised or just outright changed, there has been nothing newer to over-ride this statement...



Eldar are close enough to Human body composition to assume that the same rules apply. I say this because of live birth, nursing young, warm blood, hair, bilateral symmetry, yeah, there is alot in common.

Can you find any actual fluff references that suggest that Eldar birth their young in the same way we do?



I don't think that you have ever served in a combat arms unit, maybe, but I doubt it. I don't know at what level you have competed in athletics. I've been in a combat arms unit, and competed against Justin Gatlin (google it) In these two fields were strength and toughness are more or less bywords for success, what gender do you think is exclusively represented? I win again. Look up gender norming, if you want more proof besides your 'tough' chick friends.

How much of your combat training, or your sporting competition, or the gender research you have seen has involved women who were

A) trained in combat for several centuries
and/or
B) Elves?


Just curious.




lso- I don't have it in front of me, but I think the old BGB said that scorps were all male.

Nope, no such reference.




But cultural preferences and attention are drawn to different details of the human body, so I would guess you come from North America

Not even close...

MarksmanCypher
10-12-2006, 23:46
Downundercadet07 - I really couldn't care less that men are, across the board, stronger than women. I know that, it's evolution. I'm not going to deny it.

What my point is, though, is that just because it says "strongest and toughest" doesn't mean it is exclusively males. Gender norming, combat arms unit, whatever argument you want to lay across - I just don't think "strongest and toughest" means "men only".

I agree, yes, most Scorpions are males. It could be 100:1, or even 10000:1, but I think there's some female scorpions out there. They might not be the best scorpions, they might not be Exarchs, but if a Female Autarch has a mandiblaster or a chainsword, then she would have had to have been a Scorpion. Similar to if a Male Autarch has a banshee mask, he would have had to have trained as a Banshee (a mainly female aspect).

Khaine's Messenger
11-12-2006, 00:08
I really have problems with this. (...) it violates (...) an Eldar sensibilities (IMHO).

How could a man dressing up as a woman in what is essentially a dissociative masquerade a violation of Eldar sensibilities? Or a woman as a man for that matter?

The only thing I take issue with is the idea that a profound respect for Lileath leads to an all-female army. But to be honest, I really don't care about that connection at all, since I really don't think making the army all-female needs a justification.


Tzeechians will warp thier outward form to attain secrets of the flesh and I think it would be anathema for an Eldar, especially one walking the path of an aspect warrior to do the same.

So you associate grotesque physical mutation created through warped black sorcery with a flatchested man suffering from dissociative personality disorder wearing a bra that in no way alters his personal physiology. How does that follow?

luchog
11-12-2006, 16:30
Downundercadet07 - I really couldn't care less that men are, across the board, stronger than women. I know that, it's evolution. I'm not going to deny it.

You're taking a very narrow, species-centric view here. In many species that exhibit sexual dimorphism the males are dominant, that's true. But many others are females dominant. Raptors (eagles, hawks, falcons, vultures) come to mind. In nearly all raptor species, the females are considerably larger and stronger than the males; in some cases (eg. the Harpy eagle) up to twice as large. This is also true for some mammal species, such as hyenas; and many reptiles, such as the boidae.

There are also many species that exhibit no notable dimorphism at all; with male and female roughly equal; and in some cases nearly indistinguishable.

No reason why Eldar males are necessarily as domiant as they are in the Human species. No reason why either gender has to be dominant. In fact, fluffwise, it would appear that, in fact, there is no significant sexual dimorphism or gender dominance.

Interesting that this is brought up in the context of the Striking Scorpions; since the majority of the arachnid species (scorpions being arachnids) are sexually dimorphic and female dominant.

luchog
11-12-2006, 16:37
I would very much doubt there are any, at least since the Fall.

Given Slaanesh's depiction as a being with both male and female parts, I would expect their horror at their part in Slaanesh's creation to steer them away from any real blending of genders on a personal basis.

But that's just me. Who can say how Aliens would think about it?

I can see your point, but keep in mind that Slaanesh is representative, being created entirely from, the Eldar psyche. His hermaphroditic nature is derived directly from the nature of the Eldar. All the other major Chaos gods are masculine, having been formed from the psyches of races that were male dominated.

Even after such as trauma, it's highly unlikely that the psyche of an entire species would change in such a dramatic way. I think it's more probably that the Eldar do retain that part of their nature, since it's not their sexual ambiguity that created She Who Thirsts, but their tendency toward uncontrolled excess. It's against excesses that the disciplines of the Paths are intended to ward, not necessarily their fundamental nature.

The fluff, though vague, would seem to support this, at least IMO.

Bregalad
11-12-2006, 16:51
Humans have a big brain, esp. at birth, as too many functions have to be there from the start. Therefore women have to have broader hips than men so that baby heads can pass through the birth channel, it's a biological reason (there is no biological necessity for having big breasts though). So it is reasonable that Eldar women also need to have broader hips, as Eldar are said to have more complex brains. Of course you can always say, that because of them being Xenos, everything is possible.

Midknightwraith
11-12-2006, 18:17
Well the fluff certainly indicates that followers of any aspect can be male or female. And while the idea that the armor would represent the aspect not the individual, is intresting, it doesn't standup to the models themselves. Vis-a-Vis, Guardians. Female guardians are clearly distinguishable from Male guardians, therefore clearly *not* androgenous.

Admitedly, while self-mutilation is something that we mon-keigh's might do(Amazon women), I find the idea of Female Eldar chopping off their boobs to fit into Scorpion and other Aspect Armor somehow just doesn't fit with the rest of their fluff. As someone pointed out Eldar are decadent, IMO the idea of such action would seem barbaric and beneath them. Not to mention prohibitive for them to persue the path of the "HouseWife" at some later point. :D

MarksmanCypher - if it was 1:10000 wouldn't that make the likely hood of actually seeing one on a battle field, incredibly low, not to mention an exarch or whole squad of them. Strong reguard for Lileath is not neccessary for the presence of female exarchs.

Downundercoat07 - The argument isn't that the strongest man won't always be stronger than the strongest woman. Rather that sufficiently strong Female Eldar capable of following the path of the scorpion exist. Additionally, with the stats change for 4th, Scorpions no longer require the strongest recruits, since the Strength buff is a function of the weapons they use *not* their physical development. Personally, I like this change even though it makes them "weaker". It means that any Eldar can be a Scorpion, or any aspect really. Which is what the path is all about. If only the strongest can be Scorpions, then it would stand to reason that all scorpions would get caught on the path, and become exarchs, which clearly also doesn't happen according to the fluff.

The real problem with Female aspect warriors (Aside from Banshees, and DireAvengers), is that sculpting brests into the armor, and making it look right is difficult, especially for scorpions as they wear heavier armor than the others. If I was going to try I would start with a tear drop shape of Greenstuff and probably smooth out and armor plates that are visible near the edges where the breasts meet the chest.

insaniak
11-12-2006, 19:12
So it is reasonable that Eldar women also need to have broader hips, as Eldar are said to have more complex brains.

...assuming that Eldar give birth in the same way that we do, and assuming that 'more complex' means 'the same shape but bigger...'

;)




Female guardians are clearly distinguishable from Male guardians, therefore clearly *not* androgenous.

Never said they were completely androgynous... just that there is a certain tendency towards it in GW's Eldar models, with the only real difference between the male and female models being the addition of boobs on the female torsos.

MarksmanCypher
11-12-2006, 20:42
You're taking a very narrow, species-centric view here.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I thought that saying "men" and "women" would have hinted I was referring to humans...

Otherwise I would have merely said "male" and "female".

I know that things are different with different species, but the argument I was having was about humans. Which is really quite silly, since we're talking about Eldar.

Actually, now that I think about it, is there another term for "female Eldar" (such as humanity's 'woman') and "male Eldar" (such as 'man')?

bladestalker
12-12-2006, 02:35
So you associate grotesque physical mutation created through warped black sorcery with a flatchested man suffering from dissociative personality disorder wearing a bra that in no way alters his personal physiology. How does that follow?

Well I don't personally believe this but my impression (and mine alone perhaps) is that Eldar society is not tollerant of any variance from societies accepted norms and that they are extremely rigid in their interretation of what paths to follow and how. Any variance from the strictly laid down and documented norms is the road to ruin. Hence the ostricization of the Dark Eldar, the inter-craftworld conflicts and the abandonment of the exodites. Any who stray from the fold are let go, even pathfinders are barely tollerated.

I don't associate grotesque physical mutation created through warped black sorcery with a flatchested man suffering from dissociative personality disorder wearing a bra that in no way alters his personal physiology. But I believe Eldar society and culture would.

ReDavide
12-12-2006, 04:02
Can you find any actual fluff references that suggest that Eldar birth their young in the same way we do?They have belly buttons, so barring some bizarre coincidence they probably have live birth.
At least, my 2nd ed Banshee models have belly buttons sculpted onto their armor - it was tempting to paint them up as having bikini-style breast plates. :p


my impression (and mine alone perhaps) is that Eldar society is not tollerant of any variance from societies accepted norms and that they are extremely rigid in their interretation of what paths to follow and how. Any variance from the strictly laid down and documented norms is the road to ruin.
Perhaps, but do you have any evidence that Eldar society has made any normative judgements regarding gender-specific dress, let alone ones that are "strictly laid down and documented"? I doubt they'd care much about the social norms of primitive Terra.
For that matter, do we have any fluff evidence to suggest that eldar even have different styles of dress for men and women in the first place? I don't think I've ever seen an unarmored elf wearing anything but androgynous robes.

bladestalker
12-12-2006, 13:19
The stylized belly buttons don't nessicarily point to eldar live births, they could as easily be a remminant of some sort of anscestral worship or racial memory. (just playing devil's advocate here) I personally believe they give birth the same way humans do.

As to gender specific dress, I'm not up on all the fluff and certainly not the novels, but just the perponderance of chestplates accomodating breasts points towards females in squads. All the fluff does indicate the eldar use a psychoplastic mesh whihc is quite different from the armoured plates the 'lesser' races use and that they prefer sleek streamlined and easy to move in styles of armour. Superfluous mammaries crated onto the armour would seem fly in the face of this.

Kymar
12-12-2006, 13:20
Admitedly, while self-mutilation is something that we mon-keigh's might do(Amazon women), I find the idea of Female Eldar chopping off their boobs to fit into Scorpion and other Aspect Armor somehow just doesn't fit with the rest of their fluff.

Umm, I don't know what women you know, but most breasts are not that large and even with large breasts,very active women flatten them against their body to reduce movement; ever seen a sports bra?

It is not unreasonable to believe that an female Eldar in a sports bra would not fit into similar armor to a male Eldar. Perhaps the measurements would be slightly different, but all eldar armor is suppose to be flexiable.

Yes the Guardian suits are rather exaggerative on the female breasts, but that's just good old GW body distortion (like SM hands).

Also, the Amazon's cutting off a breast is a stupid myth, yes having large breasts can get in the way of doing archery, but it can be learned to be avoided as well as wearing a protective breast cup.

I know that this is not the core of your argument, but I had to comment on it.

The Song of Spears
12-12-2006, 15:17
All female-exarch eldar force? Sounds pretty neat. What's the fluff behind it? Sisters who all fell to the lure of the exarch together?

Iybraesil
Iybraesil is largely a matriarchal society, and as followers of Morai-Heg, the Iybraesil Eldar aspire to recover the secrets of the crone worlds.

And thanks to the guardian set, all of my exarchs except the firedragons will be female. And while my farseer will be female, i am using Eldrad, so my army will technically be led by a male, but more so as a legendary figure, the commander will actually be the female farseer.

damnable GW, they made the trey cool bonesinger from DoW, but not the female farseer...so nowi have to make my own.... :P

Alaryel
12-12-2006, 15:48
In fact, THERE IS a male banshee miniature, so you can have a good idea of how those look like :

http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99060104098&orignav=10

luchog
12-12-2006, 17:01
Female guardians are clearly distinguishable from Male guardians, therefore clearly *not* androgenous.

Some female guardians are clearly distinguishable. No reason why all Eldar females need to be so substantially endowed. Eldar could have just as much a range of bust and hip sizes as human females do, probably tending more toward the smaller end of the range.

luchog
12-12-2006, 17:06
Well I don't personally believe this but my impression (and mine alone perhaps) is that Eldar society is not tollerant of any variance from societies accepted norms and that they are extremely rigid in their interretation of what paths to follow and how. Any variance from the strictly laid down and documented norms is the road to ruin.
None of what you've posted is in any way supported by existing canon background; and much of it is inherently contradicted by it.

The Paths are not for rigid conformism, that's pretty well contradicted by the fluff. Paths are for controlling of the extreme and potent Eldar emotions and psyche. The diversity of the Eldar, and their androgeny not only of looks but of character as well is fairly well laid out in the background. It looks like you're just projecting your own chauvanism and homophobia.

luchog
12-12-2006, 17:08
damnable GW, they made the trey cool bonesinger from DoW, but not the female farseer...so nowi have to make my own.... :P

The old Specialist Games female farseer is not a bad model. Don't know if it's still available on the site, but it pops up regularly on eBay.

Colonel_Kreitz
12-12-2006, 17:12
Umm, I don't know what women you know, but most breasts are not that large and even with large breasts,very active women flatten them against their body to reduce movement; ever seen a sports bra?

It is not unreasonable to believe that an female Eldar in a sports bra would not fit into similar armor to a male Eldar. Perhaps the measurements would be slightly different, but all eldar armor is suppose to be flexiable.


I second this; the breasts on most GW miniatures (erm...female ones that is) are actually kind of ridiculous. Sisters of Battle, for example, would hardly look human if proportionally represented in real life.

Best example? Look at pictures of US female troops in action in Iraq and Afghanistan. Here's an example: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/7-21-13/image3888.jpg
As you can see, it's pretty hard to really see or identify the chest region since, in action, they wear not only undergarments, but undershirts, their BDUs (or whatever they call the new uniform), plus armor on top of all that. It's actually more logical to have females be essentially unidentifiable through all their armor than to sculpt on ginormous... organs.

Bregalad
12-12-2006, 18:55
Well, Eldar logic gives us battle armour with codpieces for males, so your argument may be correct in principle, but not in fancy Eldar amour, mainly designed to attract buyers ;)

insaniak
12-12-2006, 19:07
They have belly buttons,

Or at least something that looks like a belly button... ;)




As you can see, it's pretty hard to really see or identify the chest region since, in action, they wear not only undergarments, but undershirts, their BDUs (or whatever they call the new uniform), plus armor on top of all that.

Eldar armour is possibly quite a bit less bulky than the stuff that soldiers are wearing around these days.

Guardian Mesh Armour is supposed to be a feather-light bodysuit of tiny-weave chainmail. So not only not as bulky, but more figure-hugging.

Midknightwraith
12-12-2006, 19:23
I second this; the breasts on most GW miniatures (erm...female ones that is) are actually kind of ridiculous. Sisters of Battle, for example, would hardly look human if proportionally represented in real life.

It's actually more logical to have females be essentially unidentifiable through all their armor than to sculpt on ginormous... organs.

All true, but quite irrelevant to the discussion of *modeling* female Eldar Scorpions, Dragons, etc. For better or worse Fantasy/Sci-Fi women are generally quite well endowed. :cool: Much more so than their contemporary counterparts. :angel: So what if, in *reality*, female Eldar in body armor would look nearly indistinguishable from male Eldar. Saying the exarchs are all Female without changing the models is kinda pointless. The point of making the claim is so that you can model something different, have it make logical sense and really personalize your army. It has nothing to do with *reality* of any sort.

Not to mention, as someone else has pointed out, eldar armor is more like a mesh leotard, than armor plates. Meaning even less well endowed Eldar females would be distinguishable in their near skin tight armor. :D

As for the *aberantness* of potentially "cross dressing" male eldar. Historically speaking, societies that have abandoned their sexual taboos often collapse soon after (within 100-200 years). Where they don't, the conservative backlash tends to severly limit the opportunities for experimentation. The Eldar would seem to fall into the later category.

OTOH, they are aliens, and the fluff is somewhat silent. After All there might be an Eldar Path of the crossdresser, the problem is that the individual would not be on the path of the Banshee at the same time would they? The point of the path is to discipline the Eldar mind. To help control the dacadent urges each Eldar has that helped to give birth to Slanesh. Urges which led to the development of "Exotic cults [that] sprang up [...] each dedicated to esoteric knowledge or sensual excess" - Eldar Codex Pg 4. So clearly, sensual/sexual excess was part of what led to the fall. Cross Dressing is an expression of sensual excess/deviancy. Therefore, Cross dressing would fall into the category of things that Eldar would be using the path to avoid. Therefore, cross-dressing Eldar seems very unlikely.

scarletsquig
12-12-2006, 20:31
I like boobs :)

bladestalker
13-12-2006, 02:09
I like boobs :)

Sigh... Well I guess it had to be said.

AvatarofUlthwe
13-12-2006, 14:42
...I thought all Banshees were female? :confused:

Oh, God, don't say the senility is setting in already...!
So young!!


....then again, I'm probably some 96yr old guy who's so senile he still thinks it's 2006 and you're all just in my head.

Hello, figments!

luchog
13-12-2006, 17:44
As for the *aberantness* of potentially "cross dressing" male eldar. Historically speaking, societies that have abandoned their sexual taboos often collapse soon after (within 100-200 years). Where they don't, the conservative backlash tends to severly limit the opportunities for experimentation. The Eldar would seem to fall into the later category.

There really isn't any support for that assertion, particularly once you abandon a Euro-centric viewpoint, and Rome as the model culture, since it very much wasn't. First, few non-isolated cultures have survived more than a few hundred years, regardless. Interaction with external cultures always results in change and upheaval; particularly when those external cultures are militaristic and expansionist. Many cultures that exist in more isolated circumstances have maintained considerably different sexual taboos, including the acceptance of homosexuality, transgenderism, and incest, for their entire existence. The downfall of these cultures was generally not due to internal stresses, but rather due to outside influences.

Greek culture was accepting of homosexuality and transgenderism for most of it's existence, clearly exemplified in its mytho-history. Conquest by the Romans came when it had degenerated through internal squabbling and a lack of anything resembling a strong government. Other, similar cultures, such as the isolationist Trojans, had much more narrow sexual taboos, and yet did not last very long before being conquered by the expansionst Hellenes.

By contrast, the Pacific Island cultures were almost universally accepting not only of homosexuality and transgenderism, but also of incest. They maintained a fairly strong and unified culture even in the face of invading European powers, until well into the 19th century. Some, such as Hawaii, eventually abandoned their practices and adopted the morality and taboos of the invaders, while others, such as Tahiti, maintained their own, albeit in a modified form.

Asian cultures have maintained a millenia-long history of open acceptance of various "abberant" behavours, with many forms of "non-standard" sexualty being commonplace throughout history in Japan, China, and India -- in the case of India, up to and including zoophilia. It was only the 18th century invasion of Islam and 19th century invasion European Christianity that gradually imposed more conservative sexual mores in India. China persisted up until the 20th century and the Cultural Revolution. Japan has maintained it's sexual mores pretty well consistantly through it's history, with only a very brief period of suppression during the Meiji period and post-war Reconstruction; again due to the imposition of European Christian morality.

Ultimately, sexual attitudes and morality had little to do with the viability of a culture. The key factor in a culture's longevity has been predominantly the availablity of resources, lack of competition, and internal stability. Rome, being a hodge-podge of many different peoples did not have the internal stability necessary to maintain both effective control over internal rebellion by conquered but unassimilated cultures, and an effective defense against outside invaders.

Dragonlv8
14-12-2006, 07:04
Um why is every one talking about India and Rome and everything HELLO this is Warhammer not Human History.

Off topic:Yes I think we all like boobs especially me.

Son of Makuta
14-12-2006, 09:10
I think I read a fluff piece with a female Striking Scorpion Exarch in it before. Can't remember where, but I'm pretty sure it exists.

EDIT: And if there are any women on Warseer can you give this thread your input please!

Bregalad
14-12-2006, 10:21
He should do his all-female Eldar force and don't give a damn about cross-dressers and classic Greek society :wtf:

MaxORK
14-12-2006, 11:31
Women don't belong in the military, they are slower and weaker and all the males will be distracted whilst they are around...


*Runs to Spain*

Setrus
14-12-2006, 14:30
*blinks* :eek:

hehe...hahaha...BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Oh man that's hillarious!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Yes...run...run VERY fast... :evilgrin:

Seriously: I want you to tell that to a female marine, I'd LOVE to see the result! :evilgrin:

Dragonlv8: I think they're using them as examples to prove their point since it's really the only places where one could draw a comparison to the 40K universe as we only really know about human history when it comes to war and suchlike...

I think Midknightwraith more or less got it true.

So I say: Do it, do it now and never look at this thread again. Asking other players for advice...what a fool. :angel:

Onisuzume
14-12-2006, 14:47
Women don't belong in the military, they are slower and weaker and all the males will be distracted whilst they are around...
Slower? Weaker?
I doubt that.
As for the guys getting distracted; those guys should grow up. :p

*Runs to Spain*
Why there?

Seriously: I want you to tell that to a female marine, I'd LOVE to see the result!
I'd love the result as well, except for the fact that I'd probably have to clean up the mess.

So I say: Do it, do it now and never look at this thread again. Asking other players for advice...what a fool.
Remind me to say that when you ask others for help. ^^