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Sabbad
09-12-2006, 10:06
(Note that Tzeentch, Slaanesh and Nurgle are deliberately absent from the poll above, as Khorne is explicitly stated as being more powerful than them at this time)

Voronwe[MQ]
09-12-2006, 10:25
Remove the Machine God; it is just an abstract idiomatic concept of the Cult Mechanicus, not a 'real' god of sorts.

Daemonslave
09-12-2006, 10:31
You've missed out the Old Ones, beings who actually created the Chaos Gods during the War in Heaven. (Just because they've disappeared doesn't mean they are all dead).

LoerdofallJoy
09-12-2006, 10:42
Definately Mork 'n' Gork

Deyd duff up all da ovvers if dey wanted to. But dey is too busy duffin up each ovver!

Getifa Ubazza
09-12-2006, 10:53
Gork and Mork are the strongest, Didnt they beat up the Chaos gods one time. If not, I bet they could if they felt like it.

hiveminion
09-12-2006, 10:57
Since when is the Emperor a god?

*bonkbonkbonk*

Oh, hello, Inquisitor! *cough*

Rockerfella
09-12-2006, 10:58
Ah the Emperor. *sighs heavily and shakes head*

Champion of Biel-Tan
09-12-2006, 12:31
People who voted on the emperor: He maybe powerfull but hes not stronger then a god. In a 1 vs 1 fight against a god he will be knacked in two before he could even say Oh no it's a God! From The options shown it will probably be Ynead because he got enough strenght to kick the choas gods ass or Gork And Mork but I don't know anything about ork fluff so im not sure about it.

lapis_lazuli
09-12-2006, 12:48
Khorne. He is, after all, the archetypal war god. And war gods pwn. :evilgrin:

Rockerfella
09-12-2006, 13:00
People who voted on the emperor: He maybe powerfull but hes not stronger then a god. In a 1 vs 1 fight against a god he will be knacked in two before he could even say Oh no it's a God! From The options shown it will probably be Ynead because he got enough strenght to kick the choas gods ass or Gork And Mork but I don't know anything about ork fluff so im not sure about it.

And, lets not forget that the Emperor isn't really capable of anything anymore, other than keeping the astronomican ablaze (i personally think this operation is perfomed by the golden throne anyways...:angel: ). He rarely, if ever communes with his underlings.. if memory serves, no one can remember the last time he actualy communed with anyone, save Jaq Draco, who got the imperssion the Emperor was a blubbering mass of confused, insane schitzoid blabber.

So, no.. in real terms i personally dont think the Emperor is the strongest deity in the galaxy.

On a singular basis, i think maybe the nightbringer, at the top of his game. WHen the Dragon wakes, he's gonna be pretty tricky. Yneead, again, when that chap rolls off his duvet he's going to be quite the angry young man.

So, i'm not sure. I am sure though that i dont think its the Emperor.

Cheers!

Hideous Loon
09-12-2006, 13:35
And Khorne feeds on emotions that every human being in the universe feels every day: anger, rage, hate, retribution, you name it. This makes him stronger, since in the 41st millennium, war (and all of these emotions) exist on a daily basis.

Commander Ozae
09-12-2006, 13:38
Hmmm, the Emperor not being able to fight a god. I wonder, during the Heresy wasn't Horus basically a god. After all, the Emperor killed him and he had the power of the Dark Gods behind him and he was a primarch. If that's not godly i don't know what is.

Rockerfella
09-12-2006, 13:41
Hmmm, the Emperor not being able to fight a god. I wonder, during the Heresy wasn't Horus basically a god. After all, the Emperor killed him and he had the power of the Dark Gods behind him and he was a primarch. If that's not godly i don't know what is.

Being backed by the chaos gods, and fighting a chaos god are two very different concepts in my eyes.

No, Horus by definition, wasn't a god. He was a space marine Primarch with the backing of chaos gods. Thats not being a god. To me at least.

Khaine's Messenger
09-12-2006, 14:28
The Machine God? A petty and empty whelp whose constant nonexistance is more evidence of mankind's delusion. The Emperor? An upstart whose godhood is still in the making. The C'tan? Pitiful pretenders no closer to victory than the Emperor despite being older by far than the Chaos Gods themselves. The Laughing God? Khaine? Broken and ancient, they rely more on guile than power. The Ork powers? Who cares but the Orks?

Blood for the Blood God. ;)

MrBigMr
09-12-2006, 14:28
Gork'n'Mork. They are the most powerful ones, since all the Orks belive they are. They even have the best avatars, the Gargants.

Rockerfella
09-12-2006, 14:54
The Machine God? A petty and empty whelp whose constant nonexistance is more evidence of mankind's delusion. The Emperor? An upstart whose godhood is still in the making. The C'tan? Pitiful pretenders no closer to victory than the Emperor despite being older by far than the Chaos Gods themselves. The Laughing God? Khaine? Broken and ancient, they rely more on guile than power. The Ork powers? Who cares but the Orks?

Blood for the Blood God. ;)

Cegorach has alwas relied more on guile than power. Khaine can only rely on his avatars, as he has no hope of returning to his original form.

If we talked pre fall Khaine? Yah, he'd deffo be a contender. IMO. :)

Kage2020
09-12-2006, 14:58
Other: the C'toe.

Kage

Khaine's Messenger
09-12-2006, 15:01
Other: the C'toe.

How could I have overlooked the awesome Star God residing in the Emperor's left big toe? :confused: :( :p I'm not worthy!

Oh, and Pre-Fall Khaine is intimately tied with Khorne. If Khaine is a "contenda" then "contending" with Khorne is going to be something of problem.

Rockerfella
09-12-2006, 15:10
Oh, and Pre-Fall Khaine is intimately tied with Khorne. If Khaine is a "contenda" then "contending" with Khorne is going to be something of problem.

I'm talkin the Khaine who bowled out the nightbringer waaay before Khorne was aware of his own bad breath. :D But yeah, those two being alledgedly different parts of the same being then, sure, he would be hard to handle. :(

inq.serge
09-12-2006, 15:19
Laughing God

Whatever his foes try, he'll laugh at them.
can't stop laughter.
http://www.bidstrup.ru/content/0921.html (Warning, this Dannish comic-writer was loved in sovjet but banned in the USA)

Rockerfella
09-12-2006, 15:21
Laughing God

Whatever his foes try, he'll laugh at them.
can't stop laughter.
http://www.bidstrup.ru/content/0921.html (Warning, this Dannish comic-writer was loved in sovjet but banned in the USA)

hha! Yeah, like he did to Slaanesh whilst Khaine fought her. Slaanesh looked at Cegorach, and felt utter and total hatred and contept whilst Cegorach laughed, and laughed, and laughed. He's one crazy cat. :D

Zedric
09-12-2006, 16:30
Gork and Mork are never defeated, they simply shrug off the blows of the other gods and laugh at them. Then Gork grins, bears his teeth, and lands a mighty blow on the head of his adversary with his gigantic club. Similarly, Mork, the meter of low cunning, clobbers his foes when they aren't looking.

Canon FTW. :D

hiveminion
09-12-2006, 18:38
I think the Laughing God. Sure he's not overly destructive, but he IS powerful. Able to trick the Chaos Gods and stuff.

The Emperor can be ruled out immediately, he's no god, doesn't even come close.

The Machine God is just an imagination of the Adpetus Mechanica's collective consciousness (OK, he probably exists in some way, but the best he can do is drive a vehicle forward and fire it's guns with a 33% chance of hitting).

Khorne...
Khorne, Khorne, Khorne...
Isn't he trapped in the Warp?

Gork and/or Mork...aren't they the snotlings who are rumoured to have created the Ork race? I can see no other explanation for their existance.

Ynnead is (was) powerful according to fluff, but he seems to have been placed on non-active for a while.

Khaine, OK. Split in 1000 or more pieces. He needed help from Khorne to beat Slaanesh, and Khorne is more powerful than the other Chaos Gods, so Khaine can be ruled out easily.

Nightbringer and Deceiver. As far as I know they're so weak they can be represented on the tabletop.

Void Dragon. We'll have to wait untill he escapes from his tomb to see what he can do. 'Till then, I don't see him as the most powerful god.

I do miss one deity (or deities) here...the most powerful, most infuencial, most revered of gods in the 40k universe...the Dice Gods!

Tanith Ghost
09-12-2006, 18:51
No, not the warth of the Dice Gods! Arg! We're doooomed! *runs* :p

For my part, the Emperor. When he becomes a god, the big 4 and the c'tan are gonna be cryin 'monkey' and 'uncle'. Ave Imperator, oh yeah!

Kandarin
09-12-2006, 19:18
What, no Hive Mind?

hiveminion
09-12-2006, 19:21
No, it's sad, but it's not a god...

Kjell
09-12-2006, 19:48
Gork'n'Mork. They are the most powerful ones, since all the Orks belive they are.

Every member of the Imperial Cult not only believes, but knows that the Emperor is the Supreme Deity Above All Others and the Holder of Various Related Pompous Titles. So your point is? :p

InquisitorNiels
09-12-2006, 19:54
Khaine, OK. Split in 1000 or more pieces. He needed help from Khorne to beat Slaanesh, and Khorne is more powerful than the other Chaos Gods, so Khaine can be ruled out easily.


Did he not fight Slaanesh as it was born and at its peek power? Seems to me that it would be a hard task. I think you underestimate Khaine's power. :D

inq.serge
09-12-2006, 19:58
Peek of his/her/its power?

Slaanesh, the young (-er) one hasen't even reached near his/ her/ its full potential.

MvS
09-12-2006, 20:20
And no-one actually 'beat' Slaanesh anyway. He/She was born, consumed almost an entire species in the process without having to wait for them to die before claiming their souls (initially) by wripping open reality, creating the Eye of Terror and shattering Khaine as a result...

Slaanesh is one of the Big Four, and not yet the most powerful of them either. Think about that.

This is why Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh are the Big Four and not the Main Four With Assorted Other Dudes Who Are Also Quite Tough.

;) :D

hiveminion
09-12-2006, 20:23
And no-one actually 'beat' Slaanesh anyway.


According to fluff, Khaine took on Slaanesh in a duel, which he (Khaine) would have lost if Khorne hadn't intervened...

MvS
09-12-2006, 20:26
Really? Where does that come from?

Regardless, Slaanesh still wasn't 'beaten', whatever that is supposed to mean in this case. The Big Four aren't just physical entities, with mortal shells like an Avatar. They're... well... Gods.

mistformsquirrel
09-12-2006, 21:25
Gork... or maybe Mork.

Because no other deity has billions upon billions of crazy green followers who build idols to them - idols to them that come with GUNS! BIG GUNS!

DAKKADAKKADAKKA!

InquisitorNiels
09-12-2006, 21:42
For a god the point of your creation would be one of your strongest. As someone stated, it consumed a massive amount of souls at the point, I think that alone would grant you great power. Slaanesh would most likely be the most powerful if it wasnt for the fight with two other gods. Maybe Slaanesh didnt max out when it was born, but I do think it was at its most powerful compaired to now.

Vaktathi
09-12-2006, 21:58
Gork and Mork for sure.

Ork Gods are awesome.

Lockjaw
09-12-2006, 22:13
Gork and Mork, they're the gods of the toughest race of all!

Shallowain
09-12-2006, 22:23
My vote goes to Malal.

Kromando33
09-12-2006, 23:27
Khaine got destroyed by Slaanesh, the most young and least powerful of the chaos gods, so I dont think he's in the running.

Did all the 'ultramarine' people vote for the Emperor? Dudes, he's in a coma. The power of the imperium is great in spite of, not because his rotting corpse is on Terra.

Chaos is eternal, as long as people kill each other and murder and violence are rife in the WH40K Universe (when isnt it?) Khorne will be more and more powerful. Also I understand why you Khorne as the only chaos god, but Tzeentch I think should have an option, just because of his immense knowledge, especially in telling the future and plotting, while Khorne is immensely more powerful in brute force, Tzeentch is always plotting to become the most powerful entity in the warp.

MvS
09-12-2006, 23:29
My vote goes to Chuck Norris... or maybe Steve Seagal.

:D

Tanith Ghost
09-12-2006, 23:34
Did all the 'ultramarine' people vote for the Emperor? Dudes, he's in a coma. The power of the imperium is great in spite of, not because his rotting corpse is on Terra.

Did all the 'evil is kewl' people vot for chaos?:eyebrows: Dudes, Khorne can't even subjugate his fellow chaos gods, let alone the Emperor, who is stronger than all 4 combined. The mortal shell is on Terra. Once the shell dies, the God-Emperor properly becomes a god, and the big four are in some serious soup.

Slaaneshi Slave
09-12-2006, 23:35
(Note that Tzeentch, Slaanesh and Nurgle are deliberately absent from the poll above, as Khorne is explicitly stated as being more powerful than them at this time)

Except Nurgle is explicitly stated as being the most fluid, ranging from the weakest to the strongest at any one time. So Nurgle is the strongest god, if you catch him on a good decade.

Kandarin
09-12-2006, 23:40
Except Nurgle is explicitly stated as being the most fluid, ranging from the weakest to the strongest at any one time. So Nurgle is the strongest god, if you catch him on a good decade.

Don't they all shift like that? They are Chaos, after all, the hierarchy'd constantly change.

Slaaneshi Slave
09-12-2006, 23:41
Not according to the fluff I have read (2nd Ed?), the other three are fairly stable in their hierarchy, yet Nurgle is in constant flux.

Tyron
10-12-2006, 00:19
Dont know if this has been said bt the C'tan dont have psychic powers.

Slaaneshi Slave
10-12-2006, 00:27
They also aren't really Deities, just super strong beings. To be a God you have to have powers of Creation.

Hellebore
10-12-2006, 00:46
Did all the 'evil is kewl' people vot for chaos?:eyebrows: Dudes, Khorne can't even subjugate his fellow chaos gods, let alone the Emperor, who is stronger than all 4 combined. The mortal shell is on Terra. Once the shell dies, the God-Emperor properly becomes a god, and the big four are in some serious soup.

Oh please. :rolleyes:

The emperor is pathetic. To be a warp god you need a section of sentient emotion to feed on, and the Emperor really doesn't stand for any of them.

The 4 basic human drives:

Anger
Lust
Hope
Despair

Are already taken by the 4 warp gods:

Khorne
Slannesh
Tzeentch
Nurgle

Anything the emperor has will be a pale shadow. He is a skyscraper, bigger than any other creature; but the chaos gods are the PLANET the skyscraper is on.


The emperor could not hope to pacify or otherwise defeat the chaos gods, because they control the majority of souls and power in the warp.


Hellebore

Slaaneshi Slave
10-12-2006, 00:49
The Emperor is simply lots of souls mashed together. Human souls of the shamans who gave their lives to create him. He is human, not God.

Kromando33
10-12-2006, 01:56
Plus if Horus with chaos powers could put the Emperor in his current state, doesnt that mean Khorne could do alot more?

And I know people will say 'The Emperor is the power of all human souls', if official fluff exists for that, I would really like a quote.

Slaaneshi Slave
10-12-2006, 02:04
He is not the power of ALL human souls, he is the power of the ancient shamans. Thats it.

Horus could only do this to the Emperor because the Emperor didn't fight him until there was no other options. He was trying to reason with him and "return him to the fold", if you will.

Kromando33
10-12-2006, 02:18
Either way, his weakness in allowing Horus to harm him, coupled with the fact that he COULD harm him, severely diminish the Emperors' powers to us. Surely he cannot be even close to the power of Khorne.

Gekiganger
10-12-2006, 02:22
Really? Where does that come from?.

Most likely arrogant xeno myth, nothing as solid as faith in the emperor.

Howcome nurgle isn't on there? Judging by the amount of life in the galaxy and the fact he's fed on despair I'd say he's pretty powerful.

Tanith Ghost
10-12-2006, 02:40
The emperor could not hope to pacify or otherwise defeat the chaos gods, because they control the majority of souls and power in the warp.
Hellebore


Oh please yourself.:rolleyes: In terms of ACTUAL WORSHIP, The Emperor ourwighs the big four by billions of adherants. BILLIONS. The big four are the pathetic ones compared with the might of the God-Emperor.

Da Reddaneks
10-12-2006, 02:55
Gork and Mork could probably take our all the others just by theirselves. Gork and Mork kicked the crap out of the chaos gods. the emperor is not a god and is not even in the same league as most of those others anyway. A grot could simply "unplug" the emperor and kill him.

ragnarclaw
10-12-2006, 02:59
Why is Khaine and Nightbringer in there too :confused:

Ps: can i vote for Iron Warrior, God of the Siege :D

later :chrome:

Zedric
10-12-2006, 02:59
Gork and/or Mork...aren't they the snotlings who are rumoured to have created the Ork race? I can see no other explanation for their existance.
As of the current canon, the Brain Boyz (snotlings) are a myth generated to represent the Old Ones in their creation of the Krork.

Gork and Mork, on the other hand, are the very real representation of the only race in the 41st millenium capable of generating their own warp energies AND as it so happens, the most populous race in the galaxy. As such, this also happens to make them the strongest warp entities in existence.

It's all very clearly spelled out in the fluff. ;)

Slaaneshi Slave
10-12-2006, 03:12
But the Chaos Gods are not maintained by just humans, every sencient race in the universe lends a helping hand. I would hazard a guess that there are many more none Orks than there are orks in the universe.

Zedric
10-12-2006, 03:16
I would take that bet, but we have no proof one way or another.

Hellebore
10-12-2006, 03:24
Oh please yourself.:rolleyes: In terms of ACTUAL WORSHIP, The Emperor ourwighs the big four by billions of adherants. BILLIONS. The big four are the pathetic ones compared with the might of the God-Emperor.

No, because EVERY race despairs, rages, hopes, and lusts.

Even those supposed adherents to the Emperor. Every single war fought by his servants increases Khorne's power.

Only humanity worships the Emperor, and even then, their emotions are given over to the base urges that define the chaos gods.

Hellebore

Vaktathi
10-12-2006, 03:41
Oh please. :rolleyes:

The emperor is pathetic. To be a warp god you need a section of sentient emotion to feed on, and the Emperor really doesn't stand for any of them.

The 4 basic human drives:

Anger
Lust
Hope
Despair

Are already taken by the 4 warp gods:

Khorne
Slannesh
Tzeentch
Nurgle

Anything the emperor has will be a pale shadow. He is a skyscraper, bigger than any other creature; but the chaos gods are the PLANET the skyscraper is on.


The emperor could not hope to pacify or otherwise defeat the chaos gods, because they control the majority of souls and power in the warp.


Hellebore

There is one you forgot:

Boredom.

HUGE human motivator. sitting on a throne for 10,000 years, that's gotta coalesce at some point into something.

EDIT: response to above post: do Orks Lust? I was under the impression they had one gender? (going off the dictionary meaning of lust that is the urge to...procreate)

Hellebore
10-12-2006, 03:54
There is one you forgot:

Boredom.

HUGE human motivator. sitting on a throne for 10,000 years, that's gotta coalesce at some point into something.

EDIT: response to above post: do Orks Lust? I was under the impression they had one gender? (going off the dictionary meaning of lust that is the urge to...procreate)

Lol. :D

I was thinking of orks as I posted that:p . Slannesh represents excess in all its forms, lust I suppose is perhaps too narrow a word.

The ork kult of speed is a perfect example of orks experiencing a sensation to excess, which seems pretty Slanneshi to me.

Hellebore

Sephiroth
10-12-2006, 04:26
In terms of ACTUAL WORSHIP, The Emperor ourwighs the big four by billions of adherants. BILLIONS. The big four are the pathetic ones compared with the might of the God-Emperor.

Doesn't the emotions of Imperial servants also feed the powers in the warp? I'm pretty sure the background says ALL emotions feed into the warp.

Ergo, the Chaos Gods get all they need from the Emperor's followers, including every other sentient being in the universe...

Vaktathi
10-12-2006, 04:40
Lol. :D

I was thinking of orks as I posted that:p . Slannesh represents excess in all its forms, lust I suppose is perhaps too narrow a word.

The ork kult of speed is a perfect example of orks experiencing a sensation to excess, which seems pretty Slanneshi to me.

Hellebore

Mmm...good point, I hadnt thought of that.

NeonDante
10-12-2006, 04:45
I say the emperor. Sure, he may not be able to win a fistfight with khorne, but he motivates billions of humans to great things. Their faith in the emperor is a powerful driving force for humanity, much more powerful then chaos' lures and gifts. So while the emperor may not be able to shoot lightning out of his bottom, he achieves more then any other god. And that's what power is really about.

I may have voted for Gork and Mork, but there is next to zero fluff on them, which I find annoying.

Slaaneshi Slave
10-12-2006, 05:01
Inspiring others is not godly power. He could do that if he were a normal man.

Vitautas
10-12-2006, 06:41
Did all the 'evil is kewl' people vot for chaos?:eyebrows: Dudes, Khorne can't even subjugate his fellow chaos gods, let alone the Emperor, who is stronger than all 4 combined. The mortal shell is on Terra. Once the shell dies, the God-Emperor properly becomes a god, and the big four are in some serious soup.

Quoted for truth.

Kromando33
10-12-2006, 07:51
Doesn't the emotions of Imperial servants also feed the powers in the warp? I'm pretty sure the background says ALL emotions feed into the warp.

Ergo, the Chaos Gods get all they need from the Emperor's followers, including every other sentient being in the universe...

Exactly right, chaos isnt a specific deity like what the Emperor is or the like, chaos is primal and elemental passion. Everytime a guardsman kills someone Khorne is empowered. It is confirmed in chaos codex Khorne lives off and is empowered beyond belief by the violent nature of the galazy at large and in particular the Imperium.

I mean it isnt even confirmed in offical fluff that the Emperor is or has become a powerful warp entity via people worshipping, is someone can quote such then please do so. Violence in it's very pure form powers khorne.

You can't beat that.

inq.serge
10-12-2006, 10:43
Cegorach will still win in the end, because how powerful his enemy is, he is still laughing at them, making him more powerful then the enemy.

Can't stop laughter.

Tyron
10-12-2006, 12:00
If the Emperor knew he couldn't stop the Chaos gods then what was the point trying to fight them. Their power comes from humans and co from the galaxy, so the only way to stop them would kill everyhting in the galaxy.

Champion of Biel-Tan
10-12-2006, 12:01
Peek of his/her/its power?

Slaanesh, the young (-er) one hasen't even reached near his/ her/ its full potential.

Well this is not true, when Slaannesh was born he/she/it ate about 99% of the Souls of the Eldar Empire plus alot of other creatures souls, This Empowered her so greatly she was ALMOST able to destroy Kaela Mensha Khaine, The Wargod of the Eldar and Slaannesh fought a tiring battle against each other and when the battle ended Slaannesh didn't have enough power left to completly destroy Khaine so she shattered him into millions of tiny pieces who grew into avatars.

Look at the facts
Slaannesh with Billions of Eldar souls (Eldar Souls give alot more power then human or some other races souls) and lots more from other races could only barely defeat Khaine who also just fought the Nightbringer and she couldn't even destroy him,

Imagine how powerfull he was :eek:

Sabbad
10-12-2006, 12:02
I voted for Khorne.

In the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium there is only war- and as long as this continues, Khorne will endure and grow stronger.

However, there is only one year left before the 41st Millennium ends...

Splagbot
10-12-2006, 12:32
When you've got a big huge axe you don't need to fire lightning bolts from your buttocks or laugh your ass off, you just need to kick the guy in the backside who's firing the lightning bolt and cleave jolly guy in twain (down the middle) and see how well he laughs then.

When it comes to pwnage, nobody does it half as good as Khorne.

masecase
10-12-2006, 12:49
>I mean it isnt even confirmed in offical fluff that the Emperor is or has become a powerful warp entity via people worshipping, is someone can quote such then please do so. Violence in it's very pure form powers khorne.<

THE PRINCIPLES OF THE GOD-INCARNATE
The Emperor really is a god, His ascension after the fight with
Horus is very real. Like the other gods He exists within the Warp
and in essence He is the god of Humanity. The one limitation to
any god is that to have power over the physical world, they must
rely upon mortals to do their work. The Emperor is in fact the
greatest example of this – the galaxy spanning Imperium is
merely the material instrument of the Emperor. In a similar
fashion, the Chaos gods must have Champions, possess
worshippers or temporarily create physical manifestations in the
form of Daemons. At the bottom line, the Warp is merely a
reflection of the material world, and without mortals, none of
the gods would exist. All of the existing background points
towards the gods, and other Warp entities, craving after the
physical universe.
However, what if a god could become a physical incarnation? As
a man (the Emperor) can become a god, it stands to reason that
a god could become a man. This is the idea of the God-
Incarnate, the physical vessel for a god in the material world.
The idea of the God-Incarnate is that there will be a certain
individual (or individuals) who will allow this to happen - a god
could invest their power into the mortal body and literally
become a living god (commonly known amongst Thorians as
Divine Avatars). Without being restricted to the Warp, and
therefore restricted to the manipulation of crass, mortal pawns,
what power would a god have?

inq.serge
10-12-2006, 13:50
...laugh your ass off...
.... cleave jolly guy in twain (down the middle) and see how well he laughs then.



Laughing god will still laugh, how many times over you ever kill him, he won't stop laugh.

Khorne will chop and cut and kick his laughing ass, but he won't stop his laughter.

Still laughing=stil alive.

Rockerfella
10-12-2006, 13:52
Well this is not true, when Slaannesh was born he/she/it ate about 99% of the Souls of the Eldar Empire plus alot of other creatures souls, This Empowered her so greatly she was ALMOST able to destroy Kaela Mensha Khaine, The Wargod of the Eldar and Slaannesh fought a tiring battle against each other and when the battle ended Slaannesh didn't have enough power left to completly destroy Khaine so she shattered him into millions of tiny pieces who growed into avatars.

Look at the facts
Slaannesh with Billions of Eldar souls (Eldar Souls give alot more power then human or some other races souls) and lots more from other races could only barely defeat Khaine who also just fought the Nightbringer and she couldn't even destroy him,

Imagine how powerfull he was :eek:

Remember, Khaine had been slowly diseased and weakened by the gradual growth of Slaanesh also. Most of his follwers were too busy being hedonistic, his 'Fan base' if you like had been depleted somewhat, so the Khaine who fought Slaanesh, in my opinion, wouldn't have been nearly as poweful as the Khaine who fought the Nightbringer.

just a thought.

Splagbot
10-12-2006, 15:46
Laughing god will still laugh, how many times over you ever kill him, he won't stop laugh.

Khorne will chop and cut and kick his laughing ass, but he won't stop his laughter.

Still laughing=stil alive.

Cut of his head and put it in a box, doesn't matter how much he laughs then because nobody is gonna be able to hear him.

Job done and Khorne can go and kick the crap out of his younger brother Slaanesh, bloody pervert.

Slaaneshi Slave
10-12-2006, 16:10
I voted for Khorne.

In the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium there is only war- and as long as this continues, Khorne will endure and grow stronger.

However, there is only one year left before the 41st Millennium ends...

But where there is war, there is Hope, Despair, and Change in equal measure.

colrouphobic
10-12-2006, 16:18
Pure Strength-wise? Gork'n'Mork, they beat up any of the other gods in an instant..problem is to make them not fight between themselfes...

Otherwise? The laughing god. Why? Stamina and wits. Every single entity that tried to take out the Laughing God, wether just a being or a true God, has been beaten in one way or another. Not nessecarily killed/wiped out of existance, but seriously- it's more fun to watch them be angry at themselfes because they cannot kill you.

Khorne vs Cegorach?
Seriously doubt Khorne even gets in a single blow...
I think the only being tha possibly could have a sporting chance with the Laughing God is he Deciever...but it's not a god so I doubt it.

Might isnt always set in muscles you know...

Champion of Biel-Tan
10-12-2006, 17:40
Pure Strength-wise? Gork'n'Mork, they beat up any of the other gods in an instant..problem is to make them not fight between themselfes...

Otherwise? The laughing god. Why? Stamina and wits. Every single entity that tried to take out the Laughing God, wether just a being or a true God, has been beaten in one way or another. Not nessecarily killed/wiped out of existance, but seriously- it's more fun to watch them be angry at themselfes because they cannot kill you.

Khorne vs Cegorach?
Seriously doubt Khorne even gets in a single blow...
I think the only being tha possibly could have a sporting chance with the Laughing God is he Deciever...but it's not a god so I doubt it.

Might isnt always set in muscles you know...

The deceiver hasn't got a chance because he tricked him once at destroying his friends and he can do so again.

Rockerfella
10-12-2006, 21:22
Pure Strength-wise? Gork'n'Mork, they beat up any of the other gods in an instant..problem is to make them not fight between themselfes...

Otherwise? The laughing god. Why? Stamina and wits. Every single entity that tried to take out the Laughing God, wether just a being or a true God, has been beaten in one way or another. Not nessecarily killed/wiped out of existance, but seriously- it's more fun to watch them be angry at themselfes because they cannot kill you.

Khorne vs Cegorach?
Seriously doubt Khorne even gets in a single blow...
I think the only being tha possibly could have a sporting chance with the Laughing God is he Deciever...but it's not a god so I doubt it.

Might isnt always set in muscles you know...

I guess this is a good point.

I suppose its all down to how you measure power. For me, its not the measure of how much you can bench press. Its the measure of how you can affect the world or environment around you to better suit your purpose. And there is no deity better at that than the Laughing God of the Eldar.

I mean, this guy has some serious beef with Slaanesh. And the C'tan to be fair. How many C'tan deaths was he reposnible for? Khaine, the (at that time) Uber poweful god of war only managed to take out the nightbringer, but Cegorach indirectly KILLED possibly tens of C'tan by having ole whats his face go crazy and eat them all. Good work funny guy.

And he had a hand in the nightbringers demise as he gave counsel to Khaine, telling of the Nighbringers weakness.

What a guy... :p

Slaaneshi Slave
10-12-2006, 22:25
Khorne vs Cegorach?
Seriously doubt Khorne even gets in a single blow...

The Gods don't fight with fists and guns... They sort of think at each other...:p

Rockerfella
10-12-2006, 22:31
The Gods don't fight with fists and guns... They sort of think at each other...:p

But, Khorne dosen't think at all. :D If its all about thinking, then Cegorach gets my vote everytime. ;)

Slaaneshi Slave
10-12-2006, 22:55
Sure he does, he can send out an immense psychic attack, which would seriously hard anything (daemons, gods) it was directed at, but a lot of other gods either have the "mental fortitude" not to care (nurgle) or the mental dexterity to dissipate it harmlessly (Tzeentch / Laughing God).

GodofWarTx
11-12-2006, 00:01
anyone strong enough to have all 3 (or 4?) chaos powers recoil out of their chosen champion horus in fear of being annihilated themselves at the moment the emperor unleashes hell on him has got to qualify him as a god.

if ____ > god, then what do you call it but another stronger god/diety?

Hellebore
11-12-2006, 00:29
anyone strong enough to have all 3 (or 4?) chaos powers recoil out of their chosen champion horus in fear of being annihilated themselves at the moment the emperor unleashes hell on him has got to qualify him as a god.

if ____ > god, then what do you call it but another stronger god/diety?

You are making a some assumptions. It is implied they took their power from him because they could see he was a lost cause, not because the Emperor could somehow harm them.

If Horus was going to get hisself disploded, they sure as hell weren't going to waste their time on him.

Hellebore

Light of the Emperor
11-12-2006, 01:58
I'm gonna say the Emperor.

If you follow the old Star Child/ sensei/ whatever else storyline, when the Emperor is freed from his throne, all of Chaos (including the 4 gods) is immediately wiped out by his accension.

That's pretty powerful if you ask me.
Of course I field the Inquisition so any other answer would've been inconceivable!

Kromando33
11-12-2006, 03:12
Light, all the fluff regarding that and the nature/history of the Emperor is highly contradictory considering all the different sources and articles etc of fluff, and there is no clear official fluff regarding it, only many highly speculative stories.

Light of the Emperor
11-12-2006, 03:51
True. There are indeed many, many sources. I wish I could quote some of the main ones but they escape me.

Kromando33
11-12-2006, 03:56
You know many people only consider the codex and rulebook fluff to be official.

Marshal_K
11-12-2006, 05:18
I don't think its fair that the other chaos gods are left out.

My money for all time forever is on Tzeentch. No one knows or pretends to understand what he plans but everyone knows that everything that happens somehow plays into his master design for the universe. How can any of the other "deities" beat that?

And sure, Khorne might be the most powerful god right now, but does anyone really doubt that Tzeentch knew it would be that way? Clearly Tzeentch is a more behind the scenes God and I believe that the schemers are always the most powerful.

And take note that I'm a staunch Imperialist who would still rather follow the Emperor until the end of humanity than give in to any Chaos abomination.

Slaaneshi Slave
11-12-2006, 06:08
Light, all the fluff regarding that and the nature/history of the Emperor is highly contradictory considering all the different sources and articles etc of fluff, and there is no clear official fluff regarding it, only many highly speculative stories.

Considering the fluff is in Realms of Chaos, which is a codex/army book to three different games, I'd say there is official fluff for it.

vampires are cool!
11-12-2006, 12:54
the power of Khorne compels you, the power of khorne compels you, the power of khorne comples you!

Sir_Turalyon
11-12-2006, 13:02
Gork and Mork. Just be glad they are asleep most of the time...

Seconds what Slaaneshi slave said about Realms of Chaos (or what his master made him say ;) ).

Rockerfella
11-12-2006, 22:40
Gork and Mork. Just be glad they are asleep most of the time...

Seconds what Slaaneshi slave said about Realms of Chaos (or what his master made him say ;) ).

Gork and Mork... hmmmmm.

Didn't I read some fluff someplace where One of the two Ork Gods literally bashed Nurgle square on the head with a large club, leaving him pretty much disabled for a few thousand years? :D

I'm no ork fan, but i'm sure i read this somewhere. I think Gork and Mork were arguing, and, Nurgle managed to land a pretty good shot that kinda upset the brothers into retaliation.

I'm positive i came across this fluff quoted on here someplace.

Kromando33
11-12-2006, 22:47
I think people including myself are trying to make here is that violence in it's very nature empowers khorne, so logically no 'battle' can avail him.

Mr_Smiley
12-12-2006, 04:27
I think the problem here is people are looking at this differently, some people look at this as which god is the most powerful for utter destruction whilst others are looking at this which god is the most powerful in what abilities it has.
Also it depends on what field this is measured upon, for example the C'tan are far more powerful than most in the Material realm, but they have no power in the warp and Gork and Mork whilst powerful have no power without Waagh.

However as a Necron player I can't go past the Void Dragon.

Rockerfella
12-12-2006, 08:28
I think the problem here is people are looking at this differently, some people look at this as which god is the most powerful for utter destruction whilst others are looking at this which god is the most powerful in what abilities it has.
Also it depends on what field this is measured upon, for example the C'tan are far more powerful than most in the Material realm, but they have no power in the warp and Gork and Mork whilst powerful have no power without Waagh.

However as a Necron player I can't go past the Void Dragon.

Well, people are going to look at it differently because how do you define strength?

I'm pretty sure Khorne would beat the Laughing God at armwrestling, (unless Cegorach could find some way to trick khorne resutling in a win). Its hard to quantify....

MrBigMr
12-12-2006, 09:30
That's why Gork and Mork are the best. They're both brutal AND cunning.
Cunning like a fox who has just been given the job of professor of cunningness at the national university of cunningness.

I'm not a Ork player, but I am a fan. You just have to love those crazy green asses.

Hellebore
12-12-2006, 10:24
As far as I am concerned, 'Power' is equitable with souls.

So whichever god has consumed the most souls will be, by default the most powerful (potentially). Whether that power is ever used is immaterial.

We would say that America has the most powerful military on the planet yes? How do we know, it's not like they've fought china, korea, india, and Russia to SEE who is best.

We look at it from the point of view of assets, and America has more nuclear capability than any other country.

Thus Khorne would be most powerful, because of the number of souls (assets) it has consumed.

Hellebore

Slaaneshi Slave
12-12-2006, 10:43
Off topic, but Nuclear capability mean nothing in modern warfare. What use is a weapon you can't use?

colrouphobic
12-12-2006, 10:43
We would say that America has the most powerful military on the planet yes? How do we know, it's not like they've fought china, korea, india, and Russia to SEE who is best.

We look at it from the point of view of assets, and America has more nuclear capability than any other country.
Hellebore

Dangerous grounds to go into in a forum.
I can not only dismiss this argument above easily, but I will also tick off half of the forumites with my counter argument, which in the end will resault in a flamewar that never has seen its like on these fora.

So lets stay away from glorification of one Earthly, contemporary state or another okay?


Plus, if it is based upon soulconsumption then the Chaos gods win on default, since none of the other deities (note that the C'tan wheren't listed as deities) actually ever consumed any souls.

Didn't keep Khaine from being fricken powerfull, or Gork and Mork...or the Laughing god.

Tymell
12-12-2006, 10:43
Of this selection I'd go with Khorne, because ultimately he doesn't care who kills who, it's all good for him.

But really I'd have to say Tzeentch. The Chaos Gods are empowered by certain things: Khorne by anger and death, Nurgle by decay (of all sorts) and disease, Slaanesh by extremes of sensation and decadence, and Tzeentch by change. If you've got a god powered by change, can he ever truly be beaten? Whatever you do will constitute change ;)

Looking at the poll, I'm surprised to see so many votes for The Emperor. His actual status as a god is debatable anyway, and you certainly don't see manifestations of his power to anywhere near the extent of others on this poll.

Slaaneshi Slave
12-12-2006, 10:50
Its because of all the Marine fanboys you see so many votes for the Emperor. I didn't vote for anybody, since the options aren't there I would vote for (Nurgle, from time to time).

MrBigMr
12-12-2006, 11:14
On the subject of "who gualifies as a deity", we should explore the definition.
One exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful. (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/deity)
A postulated preternatural being, usually, but not always, of significant power, worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by human beings. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deity)
Any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force (http://www.answers.com/topic/deity)
somebody or something that is treated like a god (http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861603448/deity.html)
And so forth.
By such, just as long as someone thinks that one is divine, is enough to make it so. The Emperor might not be an "actual" deity or god, but when few trillion humans think that he is, he is.
Same goes for any other god in the universe. You realy think a pool of anger and warfare is a god? It's just a personification of the emotions siphoned into the Warp and in the end gaining consciousness. It's not a god any more than a C'Tan, but when you have people worshiping it as a god, it becomes one.

For "real life" comparison, take Greek Mythology. The Greek gods weren't realy "gods", but just descendants of the Titans that ruled the world. The Olympians overthrew the Titans and began their own domain. Nothing "divine" about it realy. Just the fact that they were bigger and stronger than normal mortals, was enough to make them into gods.
They were born and killed just like any other mortal.

Hellebore
12-12-2006, 11:15
Dangerous grounds to go into in a forum.
I can not only dismiss this argument above easily, but I will also tick off half of the forumites with my counter argument, which in the end will resault in a flamewar that never has seen its like on these fora.

So lets stay away from glorification of one Earthly, contemporary state or another okay?




HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! LMAO!!!:D

You think that I of all people am GLORIFYING the USA?!

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Sorry that is just so funny, because my political views are anything but.

I was merely pointing out the physicalities of the situation, whether I like it or not (and believe me I DON'T) they DO have a crap load of stuff. You see, making a positive statement about something does not mean you support it, neither does making a negative statement mean you DON'T support it - they are not mutually exclusive.

If you have other information that would be pertinent to the analogy, please, give it, so that I can change it to better reflect accuracy.

Damn, but that's a good one.

Hellebore

Slaaneshi Slave
12-12-2006, 11:22
...must refrain...

...kicking... hornets nest...

MrBigMr
12-12-2006, 11:32
Arguing over the internet is like taking part in the paralympics, even if you win, you're still retarded.

Rockerfella
12-12-2006, 11:34
As far as I am concerned, 'Power' is equitable with souls.

So whichever god has consumed the most souls will be, by default the most powerful (potentially). Whether that power is ever used is immaterial.

We would say that America has the most powerful military on the planet yes? How do we know, it's not like they've fought china, korea, india, and Russia to SEE who is best.

We look at it from the point of view of assets, and America has more nuclear capability than any other country.

Thus Khorne would be most powerful, because of the number of souls (assets) it has consumed.

Hellebore

Its tricky though HB. America fought Vietnam and lost in my eyes, a tiny third world country with a tiny percentage of available means and manpower.

They were tricky, and fought in a way America couldn't comprehend, let a alone deal with.

So, lets say the Laughing god is a similar figure here. He's not going to confront Khorne directly, he'll use laughing gas and joke dickie bows, subterfuge, all kinds fo crazy stuff we would never really understand i guess.

Hellebore
12-12-2006, 11:46
Its tricky though HB. America fought Vietnam and lost in my eyes, a tiny third world country with a tiny percentage of available means and manpower.

They were tricky, and fought in a way America couldn't comprehend, let a alone deal with.

So, lets say the Laughing god is a similar figure here. He's not going to confront Khorne directly, he'll use laughing gas and joke dickie bows, subterfuge, all kinds fo crazy stuff we would never really understand i guess.


You are absolutely correct, and it is something I wasn't really thinking about. My reasoning was based on assets, but I didn't take into account skill with which you use them (which can be very important).

So, Tzeentch may not have any where near the soulpower of Ray Charles (or Khorne ;)) but can use what it DOES have at 99% efficiency.

So I suppose I should reword my original theory, to take into account your point of skill.

I did mention previously that the ability to use said soulpower was irrelevant, as it was the pure amount of power availalbe.

Your point has made me realise that skill does play more of a role than I had originally thought (cheers!). So, whichever entity has the most power AND can use said power the most skillfully, would then be the most 'powerful.'

The down side to this, is that you can't really apply a numerical quantity to skill, whilst you can to pure number of souls.


Personally, I still believe that Khorne is more powerful, whether he uses it well or not, he has a shedload of it to offset the more 'skilled' gods (so Tzeentch and Cegorach).

Hellebore

Rockerfella
12-12-2006, 11:53
Dangerous grounds to go into in a forum.
I can not only dismiss this argument above easily, but I will also tick off half of the forumites with my counter argument, which in the end will resault in a flamewar that never has seen its like on these fora.

So lets stay away from glorification of one Earthly, contemporary state or another okay?


Plus, if it is based upon soulconsumption then the Chaos gods win on default, since none of the other deities (note that the C'tan wheren't listed as deities) actually ever consumed any souls.

Didn't keep Khaine from being fricken powerfull, or Gork and Mork...or the Laughing god.

But Khaine was/is a warp entity, who was fuelled by the very precise, warring emotions of the Eldar. Eldar thoughts and warp projections are very focused. As such they gave birth to Khaine, a diety that although angry and capable of brutal acts of extreme violence, was also a supreme commander and possessor of martial powers never before seen in a god, i believe.

So, Khaine did feed of souls..Eldar souls.

colrouphobic
12-12-2006, 11:58
Rockerfella:
There is a difference between feeding of the emotions of a race or the emotions of that races souls, and actually devouring the actual souls.

Hellebore: I didn't say you were glorifying the US, I said "let's stay away from those kind of analogies, they lead to deterioring topics and start flamewars".

It's really not that difficult to see that, just read my post again.

Hellebore
12-12-2006, 12:07
Hellebore: I didn't say you were glorifying the US, I said "let's stay away from those kind of analogies, they lead to deterioring topics and start flamewars".

It's really not that difficult to see that, just read my post again.

Sorry, I misunderstood your post, I didn't realise that:



So lets stay away from glorification of one Earthly, contemporary state or another okay?


When I'd mentioned only a single Earthly, contemporary state as being the most powerful (the other names were used for comparison); meant anything other than the state I had specifically named as BEING the most powerful.

It's that darned "or another okay?" section at the end, gets you ever time.

Hellebore

Rockerfella
12-12-2006, 12:07
Rockerfella:
There is a difference between feeding of the emotions of a race or the emotions of that races souls, and actually devouring the actual souls.

Hellebore: I didn't say you were glorifying the US, I said "let's stay away from those kind of analogies, they lead to deterioring topics and start flamewars".

It's really not that difficult to see that, just read my post again.

Alright, take it easy, we're all friends here. ;)

Slaanesh devoured souls. Khaine Fed off the worship and emotions etc. Yes, i see there is a difference.

Hellebore
12-12-2006, 12:10
Alright, take it easy, we're all friends here. ;)

Slaanesh devoured souls. Khaine Fed off the worship and emotions etc. Yes, i see there is a difference.

Well, apparently, emotions don't actually empower gods, only souls do that. So I would surmise anytime an eldar died in battle/killed someone etc, that their soul would go to feed Khaine.

Of course, the fact that eldar used to reincarnate makes that a very difficult proposition, unless of course the eldar gods WERE Old Ones after all... - Kage would have a field day with that one:p

hellebore

Rockerfella
12-12-2006, 12:13
You are absolutely correct, and it is something I wasn't really thinking about. My reasoning was based on assets, but I didn't take into account skill with which you use them (which can be very important).


No worries Sir. :)

For this very reason, the British Army was recently described by an American Military observer as having the 'second most powerful force projection capability in the world, next to the US'. This is interesting because the UK armed forces, while superbly well equipped and arguably the finest trained forces in the world, are relativley tiny and few in number. The British Army numbers, whilst getting fewer and fewer (dont get me started on that one) number around 155,000. Thats everything. The actual amount of fighting men it can put on the ground in combat is far far fewer than that number. But American observers believe it to be second in terms of force projection.

Just an example really.

Unless of course he said that just for the sake of a little friendly 'back slapping'. :D

Rockerfella
12-12-2006, 12:17
Well, apparently, emotions don't actually empower gods, only souls do that. So I would surmise anytime an eldar died in battle/killed someone etc, that their soul would go to feed Khaine.

Of course, the fact that eldar used to reincarnate makes that a very difficult proposition, unless of course the eldar gods WERE Old Ones after all... - Kage would have a field day with that one:p

hellebore

Yeah, Kage seems to hate that idea eh. :p

I don't think its too far fetched. The Eldar gods were descrbed as nurturing at times, bringing up the Eldar. So, maybe Khaine was an old one, set to look after them military wise and try to kick their butts into fighting the Necrontyr.

I just LOVE the fluff piece on Khaines battle with the Nightbringer. Just love the character and demeanor of Khaine. I'm pleased he's still around in some form or another. ;)

Hmmm, the old ones were able to dwell in the warp too werent they? This coudl give some creedence to the Edar gods being Old Ones, and also the fact that Khaine was able to fight on a planets surface... physically joining battle with the nighbringer.

Hellebore
12-12-2006, 12:28
Yeah, Kage seems to hate that idea eh. :p

I don't think its too far fetched. The Eldar gods were descrbed as nurturing at times, bringing up the Eldar. So, maybe Khaine was an old one, set to look after them military wise and try to kick their butts into fighting the Necrontyr.

I just LOVE the fluff piece on Khaines battle with the Nightbringer. Just love the character and demeanor of Khaine. I'm pleased he's still around in some form or another. ;)

Hmmm, the old ones were able to dwell in the warp too werent they? This coudl give some creedence to the Edar gods being Old Ones, and also the fact that Khaine was able to fight on a planets surface... physically joining battle with the nighbringer.


The problem with Khaine's 'power' comes down to the truth about eldar reincarnation - if they COULD, then there really isn't any way Khaine could be made of souls, because none of them would join it, being reincarnated. If the reincarnation thing is a myth, then it's all fine, but they are both pretty much mutually exclusive.

The entire article they released was cool:D I loved the Inquisitor's description of eldar technology to the AdMech follower, especially how the eldar delt with the necrons, priceless.

It's funny, but the whole reincarnation thing didn't even register with me until this thread - because if they DID reincarnate, there is no way their gods were formed from souls.

Hellebore

Rockerfella
12-12-2006, 12:37
The problem with Khaine's 'power' comes down to the truth about eldar reincarnation - if they COULD, then there really isn't any way Khaine could be made of souls, because none of them would join it, being reincarnated. If the reincarnation thing is a myth, then it's all fine, but they are both pretty much mutually exclusive.

The entire article they released was cool:D I loved the Inquisitor's description of eldar technology to the AdMech follower, especially how the eldar delt with the necrons, priceless.

It's funny, but the whole reincarnation thing didn't even register with me until this thread - because if they DID reincarnate, there is no way their gods were formed from souls.

Hellebore

Thats so true. Meaning they cant be warp based entities as we know them, surely?

Yeah, that article was so cool. I still go back and read it in its entirety. I like the way the Inquisitor tries to explain the devices and tech too. He particularly struggles when trying to explain to the Admech that Khaine and the Eldar gods were in fact real. That kinda scares the life out of the Admech chap. He seems visibly flustered. :D

So, if the Eldar coudl recincarnate... when they died, as you say that seems to suggest that there isnt any way the dead sould could be part of the god Khaine.

Quite a find, i guess it adds doubt onto the nature and type of entity that Khaine was/is. :cool:

Tymell
12-12-2006, 12:59
On the subject of "who gualifies as a deity", we should explore the definition.
One exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful. (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/deity)
A postulated preternatural being, usually, but not always, of significant power, worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by human beings. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deity)
Any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force (http://www.answers.com/topic/deity)
somebody or something that is treated like a god (http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861603448/deity.html)
And so forth.
By such, just as long as someone thinks that one is divine, is enough to make it so. The Emperor might not be an "actual" deity or god, but when few trillion humans think that he is, he is.
Same goes for any other god in the universe. You realy think a pool of anger and warfare is a god? It's just a personification of the emotions siphoned into the Warp and in the end gaining consciousness. It's not a god any more than a C'Tan, but when you have people worshiping it as a god, it becomes one.

For "real life" comparison, take Greek Mythology. The Greek gods weren't realy "gods", but just descendants of the Titans that ruled the world. The Olympians overthrew the Titans and began their own domain. Nothing "divine" about it realy. Just the fact that they were bigger and stronger than normal mortals, was enough to make them into gods.
They were born and killed just like any other mortal.

You make a good point about what qualifies as a god, in that belief alone is enough to qualify. But when we're discussing the strongest, that brings up other complications. Alas, pure belief doesn't make them the strongest.

Well, unless you take the Discworld view on things. Good though that is, I don't think it comes into 40K ;) Mind you, I'd be willing to bet there are a few giant space turtles floating around the warp...

High Marshal Trenth
12-12-2006, 13:56
Someone needs a hug from America! (Hellebore) "Gives BIG lovalble hug"
Anyways, gona have to go with Emperor. Why? Because I love him so! Hes so awsome that his own awsomeness is whats keepin him in a coma. Think about it, no one wants to unplug him because they wana keep his awsomeness in a can!
Also, on the whole starchild fluff stuff, you cant really say fanatic fluff stories dont count, look at madusa, peoples fluff from all around the world made an impact on the story. Not to mention, (in game wise) There are so many people that KNOW the Emperor is a god that it does have an effect on givin him power in the warp. Read some BT fluff, we have even found simple xenos creatures worshiping the Emperor!

The Emperor is so awsome!:D :D :D

Duskraven
12-12-2006, 14:05
Isnt the night bringer the embodiment of death. That sounds pretty bad in my books

Rockerfella
12-12-2006, 14:38
Someone needs a hug from America! (Hellebore) "Gives BIG lovalble hug"
Anyways, gona have to go with Emperor. Why? Because I love him so! Hes so awsome that his own awsomeness is whats keepin him in a coma. Think about it, no one wants to unplug him because they wana keep his awsomeness in a can!
Also, on the whole starchild fluff stuff, you cant really say fanatic fluff stories dont count, look at madusa, peoples fluff from all around the world made an impact on the story. Not to mention, (in game wise) There are so many people that KNOW the Emperor is a god that it does have an effect on givin him power in the warp. Read some BT fluff, we have even found simple xenos creatures worshiping the Emperor!

The Emperor is so awsome!:D :D :D

Oh dear.....

;)

Hellebore
12-12-2006, 14:46
Someone needs a hug from America! (Hellebore) "Gives BIG lovalble hug"
Anyways, gona have to go with Emperor. Why? Because I love him so! Hes so awsome that his own awsomeness is whats keepin him in a coma. Think about it, no one wants to unplug him because they wana keep his awsomeness in a can!
Also, on the whole starchild fluff stuff, you cant really say fanatic fluff stories dont count, look at madusa, peoples fluff from all around the world made an impact on the story. Not to mention, (in game wise) There are so many people that KNOW the Emperor is a god that it does have an effect on givin him power in the warp. Read some BT fluff, we have even found simple xenos creatures worshiping the Emperor!

The Emperor is so awsome!:D :D :D

*Gives completely masculine and in no way sexually ambiguous hug to High Marshal Trenth*:p

I'm not biased toward persons or groups based on their nationality, I'm just scarred crapless of the amount of destructive weaponry that exists in the world, irrespective of who has it.

I'm just not convinced that the Emperor, or the Starchild has the soulpower OR the skill to be a contender with gods that formed from the basic emotions of the galaxies entire collective sentient races.

Hellebore

Rockerfella
12-12-2006, 14:51
Well said sir... well said indeed. *nods*

Goq Gar
12-12-2006, 14:58
Gork (or mork, we forget which)

Tymell
12-12-2006, 15:13
A (hopefully) interesting question: should the Hive Mind perhaps be on the list? Does it potentially count as a god?

Hellebore
12-12-2006, 15:21
A (hopefully) interesting question: should the Hive Mind perhaps be on the list? Does it potentially count as a god?

That gets into whether they have souls to speak of. They've never been referred to as soulless, so I'd imagine so. In which case they have somehow managed to create a god from their collective souls that does not require the deaths of them before hand.

Forming a gestalt god whilst alive is certainly a more attractive proposition than unending orgies involving various livestock, copious barrels of blood, and occasional baked goods, only to have your soul sucked out and consumed. Sure you're part of something BIG, but being shredded, disembodied soul fragments has its downsides.;)

Hellebore

hiveminion
12-12-2006, 16:02
The 'Nid codex does say they are soulless.

Anyway I like the idea that they have nothing to do with divinity, as nature is by nature godless (don't crucify me please!). The 'Nids are just a pure, superevolved, natural animal, measuring thousands of light years, and being composed of gazillions of smaller components (or body cells). No god or anything, just a beast.

The Hive Mind can be seen as the animals nervous system, issueing commands via psychic pulses to the parts of its body.

The thought of the Hive Mind being a god undercuts their biological nature.

Tymell
12-12-2006, 16:29
The 'Nid codex does say they are soulless.

Anyway I like the idea that they have nothing to do with divinity, as nature is by nature godless (don't crucify me please!). The 'Nids are just a pure, superevolved, natural animal, measuring thousands of light years, and being composed of gazillions of smaller components (or body cells). No god or anything, just a beast.

The Hive Mind can be seen as the animals nervous system, issueing commands via psychic pulses to the parts of its body.

The thought of the Hive Mind being a god undercuts their biological nature.

I actually agree entirely that nature is by nature godless, -but- only in our world. Applying that to the 40K universe doesn't work so well, since there are clear signs that gods do exist: C'tan as star gods, the entities within the Warp, even the Emperor. "Nature" works differently in that world and it seems gods are a natural part of it, and that throws a whole lot of complications into any discussion of what is or is not a god in that world, or what makes them what they are, since our standards (e.g. worshippers, divinity as we understand it) don't necessarily apply.

Hellebore
13-12-2006, 01:54
The 'Nid codex does say they are soulless.

Anyway I like the idea that they have nothing to do with divinity, as nature is by nature godless (don't crucify me please!). The 'Nids are just a pure, superevolved, natural animal, measuring thousands of light years, and being composed of gazillions of smaller components (or body cells). No god or anything, just a beast.

The Hive Mind can be seen as the animals nervous system, issueing commands via psychic pulses to the parts of its body.

The thought of the Hive Mind being a god undercuts their biological nature.


Problem is, the hive mind exists in the warp, and only souls and emotioncan exist there. So some tyranids somewhere HAVE to have a soul, otherwise there is no way they could produce the shadow in the warp. Your mind and soul (in the context of 40k anyway) are completely different.

Perhaps the synapse creatures have souls, but the lesser ones do not. They use psychic powers drawn from the hive mind, rather than purely from manipulating warp energy, by pyschic power in itself is purely warp based, which requires a soul.

Hellebore

MarksmanCypher
13-12-2006, 02:26
I love it how Khaine's up there and Slaanesh isn't... you know, after Slaanesh kicked just about the entire Eldar pantheon of gods into oblivion, and fragmented Khaine, only failing to destroy him because Slaanesh was shagged out from defeating the others.

Kromando33
13-12-2006, 04:26
Forming a gestalt god whilst alive is certainly a more attractive proposition than unending orgies involving various livestock, copious barrels of blood, and occasional baked goods, only to have your soul sucked out and consumed. Sure you're part of something BIG, but being shredded, disembodied soul fragments has its downsides.;)

Hellebore

Lol, Sigged.

Mr_Smiley
13-12-2006, 06:08
Problem is, the hive mind exists in the warp, and only souls and emotioncan exist there. So some tyranids somewhere HAVE to have a soul, otherwise there is no way they could produce the shadow in the warp. Your mind and soul (in the context of 40k anyway) are completely different.

Perhaps the synapse creatures have souls, but the lesser ones do not. They use psychic powers drawn from the hive mind, rather than purely from manipulating warp energy, by pyschic power in itself is purely warp based, which requires a soul.

Hellebore

I think the problem with this is that soul implies faith, something which the nids don't really have as they are just animals basically. Some do have a warp presence but they wouldn't have a soul as such.

Slaaneshi Slave
13-12-2006, 06:17
Problem is, the hive mind exists in the warp, and only souls and emotioncan exist there.

Hellebore

Not entirely true - there are creatures in the warp which aren't deamons, like Enslavers and Warp Spiders, for example.

Kromando33
13-12-2006, 07:06
Enslavers are daemons in the technical sense, they were created by the emotions primarily of the Eldar within the Warp, but before The Fall. They just aren't really intelligent or reason like the other entities that serve the chaos gods.

Hellebore
13-12-2006, 07:09
Not entirely true - there are creatures in the warp which aren't deamons, like Enslavers and Warp Spiders, for example.

Sorry, you're right, I meant in regards to gods as we know them. Although technically the warp spider constructs exist within the infinity circuit, not the warp.

But the point brings up interesting problems: are the chaos gods purely gods of souls and emotion, or are they also composed of naturally evolved warp creatures?

Are they actually warp creatures that have consumed soulpower to become what they are, or are they just a warp vortex formed of like-'minded' souls?

The other thing regarding the enslavers, psychicneunien(sp) etc is that they are supposed to be wholy warp evolved creatures, rather than from the material plane (at least it implies as mcuh from the description of how the enslaver plague wiped out most life in the galaxy).

So, I'm not sure how the hive mind could exist within the warp, without souls, and be attached to the physical bodies of the tyranid race, it seems mutually exclusive.:confused:

Hellebore

fatdamien
13-12-2006, 12:43
ANYONE who didn't choose the emperor is a communist! :P

Hellebore
13-12-2006, 12:44
ANYONE who didn't choose the emperor is a communist! :P

And that's a bad thing because.....?:p

Hellebore

High Marshal Trenth
13-12-2006, 13:17
Ive read somewhere that the hive mind is actually a piece of a c'tan fused with an organism. Not sure if this is true or not but couldnt that give it the soul needed to be in the warp?

MrBigMr
13-12-2006, 14:07
ANYONE who didn't choose the emperor is a communist! :P
That's me. (http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/juuso007/Pics/atenzion.jpg)

As for the Hive Mind, it's just that, a hive mind.
A nest of ants can have as much brain cells combined, as a human being. A single ant is relatively stupid, but as a single unit, they can to impressive things.
I remember a documentary about some migrating ants. They moved a long distanse and set up a small nest. Then they harvested everything from one direction, a sector of about 10-20 degrees (can't remember). They they make a 270 degree turn and harvest everything from that sector and make another 270 turn. Thus they harvest these small slices of the pie until everything is harvested. Then they continue to another location and start all over.
Or look at your body. It's made up from a whole lot of different cells and parts, all working together. A Hive Tyrand is a nerve cell flexing the gaunt muscle cells.
I don't see some almighty creature at the top. They're all part of the system.

Hellebore
13-12-2006, 14:11
I agree, but the hive mind is categorically part of the warp. It covers a large part of it, and allows communication across light years.

There isn't anything else in 40k with the same result as the warp and psychic powers.

Hellebore

hiveminion
13-12-2006, 14:24
I agree, but the hive mind is categorically part of the warp. It covers a large part of it, and allows communication across light years.

There isn't anything else in 40k with the same result as the warp and psychic powers.

Hellebore

Part of the Warp? You mean the Shadow in the Warp? I believe that's just a void representing the empty places 'Nids have where there souls should be.

The point you made earlier about 'Nids being able to use psychic powers, thereby proving they must have some kind of soul, is interesting though...
But I still think the Hive Mind is just the consciousness of a large animal, or a group of animals (as Mrbigmr said in a more clarifying way than I could possibly do).
Plz not a god it's just so *not* original...

Hellebore
13-12-2006, 14:53
Depending on how you define god, I didn't think the hive mind WAS.

But, the hive mind keeps in touch with every single part of it how? Via the warp, there is no other way a termagant can receive orders from a hive ship thousands of kms away, without psychic instruction.

Hellebore

hiveminion
13-12-2006, 15:11
But they don't. They receive orders from Synapse creatures that are closer, like Tyrants.
I do agree that this happens via psychic impulse. But what if the Tyranids do not use the Warp for their psychic powers? What if their form of psychic abilities are different from other psykers? It makes sense that as the Tyranid race is a single organism, it's cells receive instructions in the same way as ours: via a nervous system. The only difference is that electric signals are replaced by 'psychic' ones. These signals are not, however, transmitted through the Warp, as there is no Warp where a Tyranid is. There's just a void.
Maybe this void connects the parts of the Tyranid's body, and acts as a conduit for the Nid's psychic commands.
Anyway they must have some way to use psychic powers without requiring a soul.

Lord Zarkov
13-12-2006, 17:49
Didn't Tigurus try to comunicate telepathically with the Hive Mind and got a connection and had some odd visions? That would prove it has a warp presence.

From the descriptions the shadow seems less like an absence (like the pariah gene for example (especially as nids use regular psychic powers)) and more like a heavy 'white noise'

We know that nids communicate telepathically in some manner (at long range, (e.g. hive ship-synapse or the signals from 'stealer cults(; and at short range (brood telepathy amongst some creatures and synapse-lesser beings), now if all this chatter is going on between thousands of creatures the effect on the warp would be immense. Imagine a telephone cable with the maximum amount of signals going through, or a radio with talk being constantly broadcast on all available channels; it would make talking to someone else near impossible, you'd have to try and shout over everyone else on one channel or another to try and get a message across. The same thing can be applied to the warp. With all this telepathic 'chatter' between the Tyranid organisms it would make a massive amount of background noise that would make it near impossible to try and make use of any powers; especially things like astro-telepathy which is, as we know, one of the first things that is blocked by the shadow

MrBigMr
13-12-2006, 19:16
Nids are as connected through the Warp just like humans are. Imagine synapse creatures as astropaths. The Warp is just a medium for the telepathic orders.
As for "psychic abilities", I don't know what creatures have psychic abilities, but aren't Zoanthropes made with Eldar DNA, giving them the psychic abilities they have.
I heard some theory on Shadow in the Warp being a sort of "overload" in the Warp due to the Nids communication through it, causing so much disturbance that other people can't get a clear "signal".

hiveminion
14-12-2006, 14:35
Whoa! How deluded I was! You guys make so much sense! Thank you, Lord Zarkov and MrBigMr!

To steer this discussion a little bit back to topic: can the Hive Mind be a god? Of course, 'god' can mean a lot of things, but let's define it as a supernatural being, that possesses the power of Creation, making things out of nothing. If you do not agree with this definition, please share your own view.

I can find no clues to the fact that the Tyranid race is a supernatural being. In fact, everything points to the opposite.

MrBigMr
14-12-2006, 15:47
Well, "power of creation" is pretty vague. I mean, C'Tan never made anything, the Emperor never made anything, Gork and Mork propably name anything creative and the chaos gods have the power to corrupt, but they can't just pop into real space and zap a planet out of nothing.

Hive Mind doesn't realy qualify as a god, as it's not realy something you believe in. It's just the sum of its parts. A unified collective. Not smart, but intelligent. It has no self, and as such is not a single being.

hiveminion
14-12-2006, 16:02
Well, "power of creation" is pretty vague. I mean, C'Tan never made anything, the Emperor never made anything, Gork and Mork propably name anything creative and the chaos gods have the power to corrupt, but they can't just pop into real space and zap a planet out of nothing.




Well, in that case we can rule them out. :)

I do realize that in the 40k universe, anything with supernatural powers is quickly called a 'god' (when you think of it the Ruinous Powers aren't even gods, they're just...emotions) so maybe I should look at GW's standards for divinity.
Well that's going to be difficult, as I'm no GW fluff-meister...

MrLiy
14-12-2006, 16:06
Well the latest Eldar book states that Ynnead isnt even born yet, but being formed inside the infinity circuit. The book says that according to some farseers including Eldrad Ynnead will wake up and one day fight the Pantheon and win. But for this to happen all the eldar have to die and most of their souls go into the infinity circuit.

So according to the poll Ynnead couldnt be the most powerful today as he isnt born yet, but then again he will be the most powerful if he can defeat the four most powerful gods currently.

I voted for Khorne.

Rockerfella
14-12-2006, 20:21
Hmmmm.

What is the nature of Yneead? Is he slowly waking, gaining consciousness? What type of god will he be? Nasty angry type like Khaine? Or, hardcore but understanding like the Pheonix King??

Any ideas?

Cheers.

MarksmanCypher
14-12-2006, 21:11
Hmmmm.

What is the nature of Yneead? Is he slowly waking, gaining consciousness? What type of god will he be? Nasty angry type like Khaine? Or, hardcore but understanding like the Pheonix King??

Any ideas?

Cheers.

Ynnead is going to whip Slaanesh into oblivion when he awakens (and not in an S&M way).

His nature? Nobody knows. I think, when he awakens, he'll be like Khaine, but will calm down to be more like the Phoenix king.

Rockerfella
14-12-2006, 21:16
Ynnead is going to whip Slaanesh into oblivion when he awakens (and not in an S&M way).

His nature? Nobody knows. I think, when he awakens, he'll be like Khaine, but will calm down to be more like the Phoenix king.

Wont the other Chaos gods have a nasty reaction to that though? Wont they have a go at Yneead?

:eyebrows:

MarksmanCypher
14-12-2006, 21:25
Wont the other Chaos gods have a nasty reaction to that though? Wont they have a go at Yneead?

:eyebrows:

That's the beauty of it, though.

Did the other Chaos gods step in when Slaanesh was born, and help him/her defeat the Eldar pantheon?

Nope.

Do the other Chaos gods devour upon the souls of the Eldar?

Nope.

The Chaos pantheon isn't a close-knit family that you might think it is. Khorne and Slaanesh hate each other, Nurgle and Tzeentch hate each other. The only time they ever unit is when there's a reason to unite - other than that, armies such as the Word Bearers align themselves to Undivided and make pacts with each of the chaos gods for their Daemons.

If Ynnead came and fought Slaanesh, Khorne wouldn't do anything, and neither would Nurgle - it doesn't concern them. Ynnead isn't out to get them, so why risk their necks? Tzeentch might try to weasel Slaanesh out of it and get Ynnead destroyed, but only if it's going to help Tzeentch.

If a Chaos god dies, the others won't go for retribution. Hell, Khorne would probably go to what's left of the Emperor's Children and try collecting their skulls whilst they're weakened. Tzeentch would try and get as many sorcerers as he could. Nurgle would just give them all plagues until they worshipped him.

They'd fight amongst themselves for who would get the tattered, godless Emperor's Children rather than unite and fight against Ynnead.

Hellebore
14-12-2006, 22:09
The unique thing about ynnead is that he is being created OUTSIDE the warp.

He is the god of the dead - the gestalt of all the eldar souls in the infinity matricies that form the eternal matrix. These are not connected to the warp in order to protect the souls from Slannesh, and so they are acting independently.

It is also indirectly curtailing the power of chaos, by removing energy from the system.

However, it is going to take a while for it to come to fruition, because there just aren't that many souls going to power it.

Slannesh woke up and forcibly consumed most of the eldar, but Ynnead can't.

My theory about the grand design of the harlequins is that they want to cause the mass death of the eldar (or humanity) and trap their souls in the eternal matrix in order to form Ynnead.

nasty.

Hellebore

Rockerfella
14-12-2006, 22:16
And Yneead will then do what exactly? How will he interact with Cegorach (who's still very much alive and kicking) or even Khaine? As far as i can gather, Khaine still exists. Its clearly stated that he was one of only two gods to survive the fall. So, this being the case, even in his shattered form, how would he react to Yneead if he were ever to regain his original form? (however unlikely this actually is) :P

cheers.

MarksmanCypher
14-12-2006, 22:31
And Yneead will then do what exactly? How will he interact with Cegorach (who's still very much alive and kicking) or even Khaine? As far as i can gather, Khaine still exists. Its clearly stated that he was one of only two gods to survive the fall. So, this being the case, even in his shattered form, how would he react to Yneead if he were ever to regain his original form? (however unlikely this actually is) :P

cheers.

I guess there's only one way to find out, Rockerfella - kill all the Eldar and awaken Ynnead.

Kahadras
14-12-2006, 23:05
Someone missed out the Starchild (ment to actualy be a being capable of focusing the total sum of humanities 'soul' so think of the Hive mind only much more powerful). According to some fluff I read way back this was the reason that the Chaos 'gods' were terrified of the Emperor (and so incited Horus to rebel against him). They knew that if the Starchild ever came into being they were screwed (which was the Emperors plan). He could just turn round and hit them in the face with the collective psychic power of every human in existance.

According to what I read the Starchild was still a 'baby' when the Horus heresy kicked off and the Emperor decided to accend to the Golden throne in order to psychicaly protect the 'child' untill the day it awoke. Basicaly it's humanities only hope of defeating Chaos. This is very old stuff though but I still like the idea of the Chaos gods 'food' suddenly turning round and beating the nine shades of hell out of them.

Kahadras

Brushmonkey
14-12-2006, 23:38
Tzeentch is the most powerful of the Chaos gods as everyone else is pwn'd, they just don't know it yet.

hiveminion
15-12-2006, 13:42
I think this whole 'Starchild' thing is just so...manga. At least the sound of it.
It just doesn't fit with the doomed Imperium, which has no hope of survival, and just fights and fights and fights untill they're all dead.
I agree with other people that the 'Starchild'...thingy...is just something GW added to keep Imperium lovers happy. It's just like American movies which often have an optional 'happy end' because otherwise no one will watch it...

High Marshal Trenth
15-12-2006, 13:53
Not really, Humanity is far from doomed. The Imperium was never meant to be screwed eather. We STILL have primarchs out there ready to wake up and we STILL have hordes upon hordes of IG and more space mariens than you can shake a stick at. If you ask me the whole eldar god is the one that sounds manga, remindes me of Bleach in a way. Also, have you ever read the fluff on the weapons we have? There are hundreds upon hundreds of weapons in our arsanal that are not represented in the game or most stories for that matter. We have shotguns that can blow 50 foot holes into steel walls my friend. We are FAR from screwed.

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hiveminion
15-12-2006, 14:06
Than you'll have to shoot me. But do submit a Carta, please. I've always wanted to have one.:)

Keep in mind the following is my personal opinion:

Humanity should be doomed.

It makes the 40k universe far more interesting, and it ties in with a lot of fluff (especially the background in the rulebook). IMO, the dark, hopeless future of mankind is the strongest hook 40k has.

So humanity has superdupershotguns. That doesn't win you a war, especially when fighting numerous enemies, some of which are immeasurably more powerful than you are. So the Primarchs are sleeping in secret places, the Traitor ones have been awake for over 10,000 years! Has Chaos consumed the galaxy? No!
So you have innumerable regiments of IG, you're still outnumbered 100:1 at least by the Orks/Tyranids/Daemonic entities. So you have just over 1,000,000 Space Marines, they're busy defending the Imperium, aren't they? They aren't out there conquering the galaxy!

As I said, humanity should be and is doomed. Unless you believe the Starchild fluff.

And I don't.:evilgrin:

PaRaSiTe_X92
15-12-2006, 17:17
Laughing God. Nothing can catch him, he just runs away into the Warp, collecting Harlequins as he goes.

Champion of Biel-Tan
15-12-2006, 20:49
Than you'll have to shoot me. But do submit a Carta, please. I've always wanted to have one.:)

Keep in mind the following is my personal opinion:

Humanity should be doomed.

It makes the 40k universe far more interesting, and it ties in with a lot of fluff (especially the background in the rulebook). IMO, the dark, hopeless future of mankind is the strongest hook 40k has.

So humanity has superdupershotguns. That doesn't win you a war, especially when fighting numerous enemies, some of which are immeasurably more powerful than you are. So the Primarchs are sleeping in secret places, the Traitor ones have been awake for over 10,000 years! Has Chaos consumed the galaxy? No!
So you have innumerable regiments of IG, you're still outnumbered 100:1 at least by the Orks/Tyranids/Daemonic entities. So you have just over 1,000,000 Space Marines, they're busy defending the Imperium, aren't they? They aren't out there conquering the galaxy!

As I said, humanity should be and is doomed. Unless you believe the Starchild fluff.

And I don't.:evilgrin:

I happily agree, the best thing about 40K (and one of the reasons i started it) was that The imperium is crumbling and has about no hope left, their greatest warrior is in a life support system and their forces are constantly battling because they think there may be a little spark of hope.
I like The We'll die but we will die in style look. (that's why I play Eldar)
Ynead is not manga for it doesn't make the Eldar uberpowerfull but gives them rest in the afterlife when he destroyed Slaannesh.
And please don't get me started on the whole Starchild thingie, It's nice to have a happy ending for some things, but the starchild thing seems so... wrong, The emperor is nearly DEAD he can't do much but sit and guide some ships so let him die!

Kahadras
15-12-2006, 22:26
And please don't get me started on the whole Starchild thingie, It's nice to have a happy ending for some things, but the starchild thing seems so... wrong

Actualy it has always seemed quite apropiate to me. Every race has their big 'we win' idea. Why should the Imperium be denied its? Chaos has Abbaddon leading a successful crusade to Terra and killing the Emperor. The Eldar have their god awakening and restoring the Eldar to the power that they once had. The Tyranids have their whole 'were gonna eat you all' thing. Tau can keep expanding. The Necron are doing their whole 'harvest the galaxy and awaken the other C'tan' etc etc.

The whole 'Imperium is doomed' thing just seems a bit too Goth to me. There's only so much doom and gloom you can take before the whole idea starts getting a bit boring and you start casting round for something that makes the universe interesting again. The Starchild is one of these things. It offers a way out of the whole 'doomed' idea but it's still only a faint hope in what is otherwise a very bleak setting for humanity.

Kahadras

MrBigMr
15-12-2006, 22:37
The Necron are doing their whole 'harvest the galaxy and awaken the other C'tan' etc etc.
Aren't they actualy trying to turn the galaxy into a one big ranch where they can grow and harvest people for food. Imagine the Deceiver with a hayhat and a hoe, looking after his crops. "Yup, looks nice and tender" *spit*.
But what about the Orks? Do they have some big plan, apart from stompin' the whole lot.

Kahadras
15-12-2006, 22:52
But what about the Orks? Do they have some big plan, apart from stompin' the whole lot.


Probably something along the lines of the Last WAAAARRRGGGGHHH where they all get togther and bash everybody else.

Kahadras

Slaaneshi Slave
15-12-2006, 23:26
Aren't they actualy trying to turn the galaxy into a one big ranch where they can grow and harvest people for food. Imagine the Deceiver with a hayhat and a hoe, looking after his crops. "Yup, looks nice and tender" *spit*.
But what about the Orks? Do they have some big plan, apart from stompin' the whole lot.

No, they are trying to eradicate all life in the galaxy. One would presume that when they have finished with this galaxy, they would cross the void and take the fight to the Tyranids (presuming they came from the closest galaxy). They would keep crossing from galaxy to galaxy, wiping them clean, until they ran out of galaxies (waaaaaaaaay in the future), or somebody discovered the STC for the universal remote, and shut them all down.

MrBigMr
16-12-2006, 01:01
No, they are trying to eradicate all life in the galaxy. One would presume that when they have finished with this galaxy, they would cross the void and take the fight to the Tyranids (presuming they came from the closest galaxy). They would keep crossing from galaxy to galaxy, wiping them clean, until they ran out of galaxies (waaaaaaaaay in the future), or somebody discovered the STC for the universal remote, and shut them all down.
Not what I've heard. The C'Tan eat the people (or their energy), the Harvester ships go to planets and harvest the crops, capturing all creatures and transporting them for their gods.
The C'Tan have learned from the War in Heaven. Back then they were all "kill em' all", but nowadays they're working on Anti-Warp tech and operate more secretly. Sure there's less of them, but they're still a menacing force.
And if they were planning on maving to a nother galaxy, why didn't they do it after the War in Heaven? There was little life in the galaxy.

Slaaneshi Slave
16-12-2006, 01:14
60 million years ago (at the end of the War in Heaven) they went into hibernation to avoid the galactic catastrophy which almost wiped out the galaxy (the very same thing which killed the Dinosaurs, it wasn't a comet, according to GW). Maybe this fluff has changed, but that was the story when Necrons were still cool (when they were the big mystery, and not the big game ruiner).

Kromando33
16-12-2006, 01:48
The Necrons are setting up something called The Great Ward, which is the Ctans final plan for the galaxy. It entails putting massive Necron pylons all around the galaxy, you probably know from the case of Cadia that these Pylons stop the warp and warp based things from coming near the Pylons, effectively cutting the warp off from the material universe in the section of space in which the Pylon is effective.

They hope that by covering the entire galaxy with these 'wards' this galaxy will be cut off from the warp, therefore no Chaos/EyeofTerror, no Waaagh!(as far as I know, Mork/GORK are warp beings), no psyhic powers for Eldar or humanity or anyone. But more importantly, no FTL travel. So effectively with no FTL travel the Imperium will crumble without contact with all it's colonies, and so for everyone else also.

It is not known however if they will try and do this via many Pylons or maybe one big massive Pylon device that will expand it's anti-Warp technology to the entire galaxy. Remember also that the Necrons dont use the warp for FTL travel, they have inertia drives which noone else has, so they can zoom around the galaxy killing off individual planets in force, and noone can bring reinforcements because they cant travel anywhere presumably outside their solar system.

bladestalker
16-12-2006, 03:08
And, lets not forget that the Emperor isn't really capable of anything anymore, other than keeping the astronomican ablaze (i personally think this operation is perfomed by the golden throne anyways...:angel: ). He rarely, if ever communes with his underlings.. if memory serves, no one can remember the last time he actualy communed with anyone, save Jaq Draco, who got the imperssion the Emperor was a blubbering mass of confused, insane schitzoid blabber.

So, no.. in real terms i personally dont think the Emperor is the strongest deity in the galaxy.

On a singular basis, i think maybe the nightbringer, at the top of his game. WHen the Dragon wakes, he's gonna be pretty tricky. Yneead, again, when that chap rolls off his duvet he's going to be quite the angry young man.

So, i'm not sure. I am sure though that i dont think its the Emperor.

Cheers!


Well there is Kaine. As his avatar is spread among a hundred craftworlds, we could argue thet he is at least the most potentially active god. Strongest, not so much, but then which otehr god can lead a hundred warhoasts simultaniously.

Slaaneshi Slave
16-12-2006, 03:21
He isn't a God anymore, since he has lost his connection to the warp he has also lost all his power.

Imperialis_Dominatus
16-12-2006, 08:02
Not what I've heard. The C'Tan eat the people (or their energy), the Harvester ships go to planets and harvest the crops, capturing all creatures and transporting them for their gods.
The C'Tan have learned from the War in Heaven. Back then they were all "kill em' all", but nowadays they're working on Anti-Warp tech and operate more secretly. Sure there's less of them, but they're still a menacing force.
And if they were planning on maving to a nother galaxy, why didn't they do it after the War in Heaven? There was little life in the galaxy.

Part 1: Quite. Think of the C'tan as children who eat flies and everyone else as... well... flies. The children eat all the flies, but as their food gets harder to find, they decide to go to sleep till their food regenerates. Then, they can catch all the flies, rule over them, and eat them as they please. Very simple- the children have learned. Not like ours.

Champion of Biel-Tan
16-12-2006, 10:31
Actualy it has always seemed quite apropiate to me. Every race has their big 'we win' idea. Why should the Imperium be denied its? Chaos has Abbaddon leading a successful crusade to Terra and killing the Emperor. The Eldar have their god awakening and restoring the Eldar to the power that they once had. The Tyranids have their whole 'were gonna eat you all' thing. Tau can keep expanding. The Necron are doing their whole 'harvest the galaxy and awaken the other C'tan' etc etc.

The whole 'Imperium is doomed' thing just seems a bit too Goth to me. There's only so much doom and gloom you can take before the whole idea starts getting a bit boring and you start casting round for something that makes the universe interesting again. The Starchild is one of these things. It offers a way out of the whole 'doomed' idea but it's still only a faint hope in what is otherwise a very bleak setting for humanity.

Kahadras

Not all races have a 'we win' idea, For example Ynead can't restore the Eldar to power because when he awakes all the Eldar must be dead. (dead people can't get to power)
Abbadon leading a succesfull crusade? He leaded 13 crusades and no one has ever reached terra yet, The Tau keep expanding, So what? theres a HUGE hive fleet near their empire and soon there will be not so much left of the Tau empire, So the only races who have a 'we win' idea are Necrons and Tyranids. Necrons keep repairing, Tyranids keep collecting Biomass, And that's why I hate those races.

Daemon king Mad Dog
16-12-2006, 10:46
Gork 'n' mork cud beat da ooniverse falat if dey wanted too... but dey got over tings ta doo... like krump da ova godz 'n' den when dey get bored each ova!

Champion of Biel-Tan
16-12-2006, 10:53
Lots of people said that Gork or Mork would be the strongest, But has anybody got fluff references that the would be the strongest if they stop fighting with each other?
Lots of thanks if you can show me one.

Slaaneshi Slave
16-12-2006, 10:58
(I really dispise posts written in "Ork".

Daemon king Mad Dog
16-12-2006, 11:28
"Ork" as you put it is just fun, thats why we collect orks :D

I only said Gork 'n' Mork cus I collect orks so what ever...

MvS
16-12-2006, 11:47
Ynead can't restore the Eldar to power because when he awakes all the Eldar must be dead. (dead people can't get to power)
Not necessarily. It's just a matter of timescale. Ynead just needs enough souls and purpose to manifest and awaken, he doesn't necessarily need all Eldar souls. Over 10,000 we already have a fair amount of Eldar souls running around the Infinity Circuits, what about in another 10,000 years?

But let's say that almost all the Eldar do need to die and have their souls transported to the Infinity Circuits before Ynead can awaken. Once he has awakened we don't yet know what his focus and goals will be. It may be to just prevent all the departed Eldar souls from being consumed by Slaanesh, or it may be to facilitate a safe return to the Eldar's long-lost ability to reincarnate. In which case, all that would be needed is for a few thousand living Eldar on some far away planet, and then the children of these Eldar could start being born with the souls of wiser, more powerful departed Eldar, and so the reconstruction of the Eldar civilisation might begin again.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the is a need for a glimmer of hope amongst the different races and cultures in 40K, because this glimer counter-points the morbidity 40K and makes it more meaningful. Without even an illusion of hope, the imagery becomes somewhat dull and 'gothy' rather than bleak and gothic. Every new race become just another case of 'and these too will DIE because there's no hope for anything or anyone, isn't this all so tragic, spooky and grim!? Bwa, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, haaaaa!!!!!!'.

No one can say that the worst points of the first and second world wars weren't the very epitome of bleak, miserable and cruel, but it was the need for survival, the hope of eventual victory and the desire for a cessation of war that drove all sides onward. 40K should be the same.

Anyway, way OT now. I would commit the ultimate heresy and view the Chaos Gods as an insane gestalt whole and say that this Great Apocalyptic Beast was the most powerful divine force in the 40K imagery.

:D

Tanith Ghost
16-12-2006, 13:24
He isn't a God anymore, since he has lost his connection to the warp he has also lost all his power.

That said, Khaine is still a few hundred cans of whoop-ass the eldar can set loose when the want to rumble. What if all those fragments were joined together by the Eldar, and a suitable sacrifice made?

Hellebore
16-12-2006, 14:18
Not necessarily. It's just a matter of timescale. Ynead just needs enough souls and purpose to manifest and awaken, he doesn't necessarily need all Eldar souls. Over 10,000 we already have a fair amount of Eldar souls running around the Infinity Circuits, what about in another 10,000 years?

But let's say that almost all the Eldar do need to die and have their souls transported to the Infinity Circuits before Ynead can awaken. Once he has awakened we don't yet know what his focus and goals will be. It may be to just prevent all the departed Eldar souls from being consumed by Slaanesh, or it may be to facilitate a safe return to the Eldar's long-lost ability to reincarnate. In which case, all that would be needed is for a few thousand living Eldar on some far away planet, and then the children of these Eldar could start being born with the souls of wiser, more powerful departed Eldar, and so the reconstruction of the Eldar civilisation might begin again.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the is a need for a glimmer of hope amongst the different races and cultures in 40K, because this glimer counter-points the morbidity 40K and makes it more meaningful. Without even an illusion of hope, the imagery becomes somewhat dull and 'gothy' rather than bleak and gothic. Every new race become just another case of 'and these too will DIE because there's no hope for anything or anyone, isn't this all so tragic, spooky and grim!? Bwa, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, haaaaa!!!!!!'.

No one can say that the worst points of the first and second world wars weren't the very epitome of bleak, miserable and cruel, but it was the need for survival, the hope of eventual victory and the desire for a cessation of war that drove all sides onward. 40K should be the same.

Anyway, way OT now. I would commit the ultimate heresy and view the Chaos Gods as an insane gestalt whole and say that this Great Apocalyptic Beast was the most powerful divine force in the 40K imagery.

:D


Just out of curiosity, how do you reconcile reincarnation with the requirement to form a god from souls? If the souls go back into eldar, how exactly do their gods form?

Hellebore

hiveminion
16-12-2006, 15:01
That said, Khaine is still a few hundred cans of whoop-ass the eldar can set loose when the want to rumble. What if all those fragments were joined together by the Eldar, and a suitable sacrifice made?


Then Slaanesh can kick his ass a second time...

MvS
16-12-2006, 15:38
Just out of curiosity, how do you reconcile reincarnation with the requirement to form a god from souls? If the souls go back into eldar, how exactly do their gods form?
Hm, well I wouldn't by choice, but let's see...

I would assume that there is a critical mass of souls, emotions, concepts and/or worship that creates a tipping point for an abstract conglomerate of turbulent soul/warp energy to become sentient and self aware. Once that point is reached, the deity in question is manifested and 'alive'. Does that deity then need to shred and consume every soul of its worshippers? Interesting question, but I would say perhaps not.

Various concepts and worship also empower deities to some degree or another, and there is a need to create more direct worshippers upon the mortal plane so that the god can continue to exist and grow in power and influence. So maybe some powerful souls would be able/allowed to reincarnate by the 'possessing' deity?

We know that the ancient Eldar could do this, and they had gods, many more than they do now in fact. We also know that the (admittedly disputed) Star Child imagery allows for certain saint-like figures (Sensei) to separate from the Star Child Warp Vortex to manifest themselves to mortals, maybe this could have something to do with it...?

It strikes me that there must be some special gain in the Eldar trying to manifest Ynead. Perhaps it's just to stop their souls being consume by Slaanesh, but what is the benefit of that if their souls will still be consumed by another deity, unless that other deity will somehow treat their souls better, in whatever manner that might be? Is Ynead just a soul-bucket that will eventually dwindle in time as other deities grow ever more fat and powerful over the millennia due to the souls of other mortals and turn their eyes on the puny little Ynead...

Champion of Biel-Tan
16-12-2006, 18:14
Then Slaanesh can kick his ass a second time...

As I said before, Slaannesh was not even able to completly destroy Khaine even with 98% of the Eldar souls and much more from other races. Khaine at full power will kick his/her ass anytime!

Wolf Sgt Kirke
16-12-2006, 21:04
It has to be Khorne - does the whole thing not make sense - then let me explain.

Khorne - GOD of WAR

In the WARhammer 40k universe!

Not only that but even if/when two gods rumble - it only makes him stronger - so fighting Khorne would only make him stronger - therefore anybody - diety or otherwise would always lose!

The only way to destroy Khorne would be to sever his lifeforce - WAR -
which would mean we would have to play Hippyhammer 40K.

Nuff Said!

Slaaneshi Slave
16-12-2006, 21:06
Not really, if you killed him (its possible to kill a Chaos God, Thor calmed a warp storm, which is exactly what a Chaos God is), a new war won't resurrect him.

Wolf Sgt Kirke
16-12-2006, 21:16
How are you gonna kill him? with what un-war like strategem or device would you slay the god of war.

but in principle i agree - if he dies then another war wouldn't defibrilate him!

Kjell
16-12-2006, 21:19
Khorne doesn't gain power from all conflict. He gains power primarily through conflict dedicated in his name and secondarily through violent, indiscriminate conflict for conflict's sake (which is the same as the former, just without the Khornate battlecries). Regular conflict pleases him if he knows about it but that's it. He's not the Hulk, you know.

The same goes for all the Chaos gods. They don't gain power through everyday use of their associated emotions. They gain power through dedicated or excessive use of these emotions. As long as their associated emotions exist, in any form, they will probably be sustained unless directly attacked but they won't grow.



That's my take on it, though. So there! :p

Wolf Sgt Kirke
16-12-2006, 21:31
But in the subjective matter of "who's the hardest deity?" wouldn't the very act of Khorne being in a dust-up sustain him.

the God Of War in a fight (mini-war) doesn't that say - Khorne wins by knock-out!

as for the sustenance of deities, i vaguely remember somewhere in the fluff something about Tzeentch being the god of lies and politicians and tricksters - can you imagine a politician invoking the name of a chaos god in the middle of a craftily constructed orartory on the fact that his new planet wide budget cut does not massively benefit his brothers corporation!:eyebrows: .

I feel that all the actions/emotions/deeds of beings in the universe contribute to the sustenance of deities tied in with that facet of existence wether carried out in that gods name or not! otherwise how did that god become so tied to that form of lifeforce - why is there not just one warp entity that similarly to real-space beings is capable of the whole gamet of emotions/actions and therefore feeding on them?

MrBigMr
16-12-2006, 21:33
How are you gonna kill him? with what un-war like strategem or device would you slay the god of war.
Kratos killed Ares in God of War.

But there's a whole site on the subject: http://www.dpjs.co.uk/killgod.html

Wolf Sgt Kirke
16-12-2006, 22:54
Wouldn't be a very good game if you couldn't kill the final 'boss'.

but weird that Kratos, Khorne and Khaine begin with a 'K' i wonder what other war gods names start with a 'K'.

I still stick by my original point - how are you gonna beat the god of War?
A being who feeds on violence, is sustained by bloodshed?

fighting him would be akin to sending him to a five star health salon with all of hugh hefners bunnies and a lifetime supply of Stolichnaya. He'll enjoy it, and when he's done with you he'll toss your cloven skull in a pile with all the other wannabe's.

Rockerfella
16-12-2006, 23:44
Then Slaanesh can kick his ass a second time...

Yeah, khaine wasn't exactly at his best though was he.....:eyebrows:

Kage2020
16-12-2006, 23:51
Slaanesh was, according to the 'fluff', about the most powerful deity at the time, though...

Kage

MrBigMr
16-12-2006, 23:58
but weird that Kratos, Khorne and Khaine begin with a 'K' i wonder what other war gods names start with a 'K'.
Well, in God of War the developers turned many 'c's into 'k's. Greek Myth has a Cratos and the last Titan's name is Cronos, not Kronos.


I still stick by my original point - how are you gonna beat the god of War?
A being who feeds on violence, is sustained by bloodshed?
He gets strenght from the emotions that are assosiated with the thrill of murder. Fighting for your life, for necessity, for survival won't give him shht. Fighting for the pure thrill of the fight is what gives him power. Normal battle wouldn't realy give him strenght. Let me explain.
I had an epiphany in the army a while back. Standing in a dark forest, having a smoke and looking around. Snipers shooting down range 60m from my position and the whole forest around me full of live gunfire and flares lighting the horizon.
I just realized that it was normal. Normal as getting up in the morning or going to the local 7/11. Hell, few months earlier I hadn't even shot a gun before, and now I was carrying one all the time and doing all sorts of military crap.
So when you're in the field, you don't think about it. You block out the thing and focus on the job at hand. You shoot people because you have to. You blow up things because you have to. You don't think what happens when you fire a rocket to the side of a transport, shrapnel turning men inside out. You don't think of the painful death of being shot in the belly.
Without killing for the pure feel of killing, Khorne won't get strenght.

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 00:39
How are you gonna kill him? with what un-war like strategem or device would you slay the god of war.

but in principle i agree - if he dies then another war wouldn't defibrilate him!

If you calm the area of the Warp he draws power from (which at least two humans had the power to do that we know of - Sebastian Thor and the Emperor), then Khorne dies. You don't need to attack him directly, just his "home".

EDIT: Anybody fighting one of the Chaos Gods would be in a mental battle, so would actually be feeding Tzeentch, if anybody.

Brimstone
17-12-2006, 05:47
I've deleted the off topic posting, this is the 40K background forum, please stay on topic.

The Warseer Inquisition

Kromando33
17-12-2006, 07:33
Yeah, khaine wasn't exactly at his best though was he.....:eyebrows:

Yes but Slaanesh came to power and exists because he consumed most of the Eldar, so you cant really use the argument that either side was 'at their best' or 'at their worst', because opportunity and circumstance is what makes either side more powerful.

Rockerfella
17-12-2006, 09:03
Then Slaanesh can kick his ass a second time...

To be fair Slaanesh didn't kick his ass the first time. Was more like this.

Khaine: 'Hmmm, very tired, dont think i'm gonna win this one since this new guy just took all my fans (and therefore powerbase) from me, tell you what, i'm buggin out....' *POOOOF*!!

Slaanesh: CRIKEY!!! Where'd he go?!?!?? Oh poop... here comes Khorne....

@ KAGE: So, if Khaine wasn't at his best, and Slaanesh was just about the most powerful deity around, then..... guess it wasn't looking good huh. The newer fluff seems to suggest that the battle wasnt as quick and as one sided as the older fluff portrayed. Khaine did pretty well to say Slaanesh was so powerful, and although defeated, was still too powerful to be destroyed. So he jumped ship as it were....

Anyways.

Cheers!

Zedric
17-12-2006, 09:57
It has to be Khorne - does the whole thing not make sense - then let me explain.

Khorne - GOD of WAR
Khorne is not a god of war, though he is the most war-like. Khorne is a god of bloodshed and hate-filled slaughter, which is not synonymous with war. Emphasis mine:

Khorne is the Power of Chaos in its aspect of mindless and absolute violence, destroying everything and everyone within its reach, slaying both friend and foe alike.

An honorable soldier who kills only to defend his people or for duty to his commander gives little to nothing to fuel Khorne's power. An Ork who fights for love of competition or simply for his continued survival similarly gives very little - and certainly a lot less than he gives to Gork and Mork for such an effort. A Tyranid whose motivations are more primal and alien than even Khorne's own thoughts barely gives anything, no matter how many organic foes it eviscerates. Millions of honorable warriors aren't worth even one devoted champion to Khorne for these purposes, and a truly just and heroic champion could spill the blood of Khorne's servants, or even the god himself, without feeding the same.

It is true that every warrior gives a little bit to Khorne, and that the characteristics he embodies are everywhere and that he will continue to grow ever stronger as long as the galaxy is embroiled in war - but he is not unstoppable, and fighting him does not always make him stronger.


The Chaos Powers feared the Emperor because he understood them and sought to change human nature so that they would be starved of power.

Wolf Sgt Kirke
17-12-2006, 13:44
Surely fighting Khorne would mean Khorne was involved in the fight and therefore enjoying himself - i think i'm about to head in the direction of perpetual motion but would that not mean Khorne would be making himself stronger as he fed on his emotion during fights? or is that all a little convaluted - besides no matter how we try to describe it all aspects of war must pay some homage to the Blood God - as no matter how the soldier tries to detach itself from the act - the hindbrain is still going to be doing the fight/flight thing - in essence the beast still rages - surely the very foundation of Khorne's being - the raging un-reasoned animal lust to kill for survival - simply that it is carried to extreme is an aspect of the worship - simple fighting would do as prayer it is just carried further by worshipers.

I'm an imperial player by the way so the Ordo Hereticus will be on the way at any minute.

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 13:49
Yes but Slaanesh came to power and exists because he consumed most of the Eldar, so you cant really use the argument that either side was 'at their best' or 'at their worst', because opportunity and circumstance is what makes either side more powerful.

They consumed themselves, which birthed Slaanesh, there is a difference.

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 13:59
Surely fighting Khorne would mean Khorne was involved in the fight and therefore enjoying himself...

Khorne is not a physical entity, so you can't FIGHT him. You cannot do violence upon something which only exists as an intelligent emotion. Any battle against Khorne directly would only be a battle of wills, an attempt to absorb the power of the warp into yourself, which only a psycher can do, but nowhere near on the scale needed to drain a God, not even the Emperor (just clearing that last bit up for all the Emperor fanboys).

hiveminion
17-12-2006, 14:10
To be fair Slaanesh didn't kick his ass the first time. Was more like this.

Khaine: 'Hmmm, very tired, dont think i'm gonna win this one since this new guy just took all my fans (and therefore powerbase) from me, tell you what, i'm buggin out....' *POOOOF*!!

Slaanesh: CRIKEY!!! Where'd he go?!?!?? Oh poop... here comes Khorne....

@ KAGE: So, if Khaine wasn't at his best, and Slaanesh was just about the most powerful deity around, then..... guess it wasn't looking good huh. The newer fluff seems to suggest that the battle wasnt as quick and as one sided as the older fluff portrayed. Khaine did pretty well to say Slaanesh was so powerful, and although defeated, was still too powerful to be destroyed. So he jumped ship as it were....

Anyways.

Cheers!

Still, if Khaine wanted to compete for most powerful god, he'd need a lot more Eldar than are currently living in the universe.

Situations haven't changed much since the Fall, have they?

Zedric
17-12-2006, 14:14
Surely fighting Khorne would mean Khorne was involved in the fight and therefore enjoying himself - i think i'm about to head in the direction of perpetual motion but would that not mean Khorne would be making himself stronger as he fed on his emotion during fights? or is that all a little convaluted
As Slave mentioned, you wouldn't fight him directly. Additionally, the Chaos Powers do not feed directly on emotion, but rather foster the emotions so that the shadow-selves affected by it become stronger and are added to the sum when they die. Even if they feed directly on emotion, he would not feed on his own power.


besides no matter how we try to describe it all aspects of war must pay some homage to the Blood God - as no matter how the soldier tries to detach itself from the act - the hindbrain is still going to be doing the fight/flight thing - in essence the beast still rages - surely the very foundation of Khorne's being - the raging un-reasoned animal lust to kill for survival - simply that it is carried to extreme is an aspect of the worship - simple fighting would do as prayer it is just carried further by worshipers.
This is where you are mistaken. An animal's urge to kill for survival is not within Khorne's domain, nor do all warriors have some inherent level of bloodlust. Khorne is unrelenting, mindless, indiscriminate bloodletting. Khorne is the emotion of violence - the force that drives a person to destroy another person or thing for no other reason that to see it destroyed. Sure, this is present to some degree in all sentient beings - that is, after all, why Khorne exists - but to suggest that it is present in all war is foolishness.

azimaith
17-12-2006, 14:17
They also aren't really Deities, just super strong beings. To be a God you have to have powers of Creation.
All the "gods" in 40k are just "super strong beings". Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch, are nothing more than warp entities who were spawned in the war in heaven who grew fat and strong off the strife of the era.

First off, strength is *incredibly relative.* In many ways the C'tan are infinitely powerful than the chaos gods combined, in other ways they are like pathetic whelplings without even a spark of godly power.

I like to use the land and the ocean analogy for this. The chaos gods are akin to say, sharks, big nasty ones. They are more or less masters of their domain(Yes i'm being general, this isn't a bio-lesson) and their only real predators are going to be other sharks. However if you take them and dump them on shore they are totally useless. The C'tan are like lions, they're masters of their domain, top predators. If they encountered a beached shark they could just wait till it expired or rip at it with their claws while the shark was helplessly stuck.

However as soon as the lion gets dumped into the ocean hes totally helpless, a shark could just swim up and bite him in two without the lion being able to even fight back.

In the 40k human centric universe, the *C'tan* are the *ultimate* power, because nearly all of what occurs in 40k that involves the happens in the materium, not the warp. Sure chaos is strong, but the C'tan swallowed entire systems up with black holes, ate entire worlds as snacks, and devoured stars. To kill the emperors mortal shell or even the chaos gods all the C'tan would need to do is eat the sun or dump the Sol system into a black hole, or hell, release themselves from their necrodermis and just *eat* everyone there. The C'tan don't require belief, nor do they require psykers to go anywhere they please, they don't even require life, merely stars to subsist and exist. The chaos gods are very dependant on the materium while the C'tan are undependant on the warp. The fact the chaos gods haven't even managed to halt the "Great Work" which would seal off the Warp from realspace permenantly is a sign of their impotence.

However
The chaos gods are *obviously* not stupid. They have human thralls, champions who do their bidding and wield their gifts. They know of their weakness in the materium but at the same time the C'tan know of their complete and total impotence in the warp.

The Chaos gods would merely need the right warp storm at the right time, or the right bleeding of the warp into the right spot in real-space (like a sleeping C'tans tomb world for example!) to wash a C'tan into the warp like a massive wave crashing down upon a ship where they would most assuredly be destroyed or worse.

Do the chaos gods really have this sort of power? I don't know, I do know another slannesh birth like even, which covers huge areas of space could quite possibly be too large of an area for a c'tan to escape if he doesn't know its coming before he gets pulled into the warp.

So whose really more powerful?
If I were to ask: "Who has the most unrestricted use of power that directly affects the races in Warhammer 40k?", i'd go C'tan.

If I were to ask "Who has the most potential power in all of creation all together?" I'd say the Chaos gods. It all depends on whether your asking if they're kind of the ocean or king of the plains.

So for overall power *by which I mean the ability to affect the most area and entities in total*, i'd say chaos gods. The warp is of unknown size, and everything thats dead thats not a tyranid/pariah is still floating there back to the beginning of creation from who knows what source.

If your all talking about who'd deck who out in a fist fight however... well thats kind of like pitting two armless boxers against one another in a fist fight. All they could do is say: "Hey Joe, punch this ass for me!"

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 14:18
In Slaves to Darkness it mentions the "honorable warrior, praying for aid in overthrowing an evil tyrant gets Khornes aid" or something along those lines. Khorne is not just the God of mindless violence, just as Nurgle is not just the god of disease.

Zedric
17-12-2006, 14:34
I recognize the quote you're referring to. This isn't it, but it conveys what you mean:

A Chaos Power thus represents a particular and generally extreme aspect ot the traits shown by the living. The traits which characterise the Chaos Powers are insanity, violence, ambition, greed, and others of a kind which are often felt to typify the worst of human nature. But this is not wholly the case, and Chaos Powers also exist which typify fellowship, charity, law and other redeeming characteristics. Indeed, no Chaos Power is wholly one sided, for no human or other creature is wholly good or evil, and likewise neither are their shadow-selves. For example, along with violence and bloodshed Khome has inherited the warrior's sense of honour and martial virtue. Nurgle may typify decay and disease, but he also embodies the human hope and energy that defies the inevitable.

You'll note I conceded that all warriors contribute in some way to the "body of Khorne" (as the text describes it). But unless mindless violence is the near the core of their being, their shadow-self will escape the Blood God's grasp. When we talk about Khorne's domain, we refer to the traits that contribute most of the power of the god - honor and virtue are not among them. An honorable warrior does very, very little to contribute to Khorne's power, regardless of the esteem in which he held warfare.

Wolf Sgt Kirke
17-12-2006, 14:34
In Slaves to Darkness it mentions the "honorable warrior, praying for aid in overthrowing an evil tyrant gets Khornes aid" or something along those lines. Khorne is not just the God of mindless violence, just as Nurgle is not just the god of disease.

Touche Zedric!

An as the original topic alluded to deities having a dust up - could they not fight in a more physical sense as khorne abhors "sorcery" or mind-games if you will - if not - if it is all psychic warfare between gods then surely khorne would be purely defensive (collar of khorne) as he has no real psychic offense! - you see i'm not actually on Khornes side - it's just that in the question "who is the hardest Deity?" i can see no other winner. sorry - i have left an avenue of discussion open though - if like i said, all the fighting is mental/psychic then i will stand corrected.

Twilight
17-12-2006, 16:10
i red in the DOW game booklet that the orks (if banded together instead of fighting' could concer the galaxy. maybe DOW fluff getting it wrong though, but you never know

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 16:21
Touche Zedric!

An as the original topic alluded to deities having a dust up - could they not fight in a more physical sense as khorne abhors "sorcery" or mind-games if you will - if not - if it is all psychic warfare between gods then surely khorne would be purely defensive (collar of khorne) as he has no real psychic offense! - you see i'm not actually on Khornes side - it's just that in the question "who is the hardest Deity?" i can see no other winner. sorry - i have left an avenue of discussion open though - if like i said, all the fighting is mental/psychic then i will stand corrected.

Khorne, along with all the Chaos Gods, is a psychic entity. He has no physical form. None at all. Any and all actions taken by Khorne are psychic in nature. See the irony yet?

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 16:23
i red in the DOW game booklet that the orks (if banded together instead of fighting' could concer the galaxy. maybe DOW fluff getting it wrong though, but you never know

Yes it is true. But they were programmed with a safety switch, so they can only band together in direst need. If something comes along which is powerful enough, Orks will destroy it, but they cannot control the galaxy themselves, or else more Orks will destroy them. So Orks can never rule, but they will stop everybody else ruling.

bladestalker
17-12-2006, 16:28
Okay question. In the Eldar Codex it mentions the birth of Slaneeh as one of the prime reasons that the warp calmed allowing the other races (not eldar) to be able to traverse the Wap and hence expand as they have. Would the death of a Chaos god reverse this, expanding the Warp and stranding all the younger races in a warp tarpit. If I were an Eldar farseer this would be my gameplan. Stagnate and fracture all the upstart races then rebuild the race over the course of millenia. Perhaps a rebuilt Khaine (reunited craftworlds and AVatar shards) could accomplish this then a bit of warp (chaos god) taming would be in order.

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 16:43
Chaos Gods die all the time. The reason that event caused the warp to calm is because the Eldar were dumping so much psychic energy into the warp with their Sedonistic Orgy of Pleasure (TM), and the birth of Slaanesh used all that energy and killed off the Eldar.

cav da man
17-12-2006, 16:55
Chaos Gods die all the time. The reason that event caused the warp to calm is because the Eldar were dumping so much psychic energy into the warp with their Sedonistic Orgy of Pleasure (TM), and the birth of Slaanesh used all that energy and killed off the Eldar.

Think of irritating kids splashing around in a swimming pool and then those ripples going together into a wave to swallow them whole...

Wolf Sgt Kirke
17-12-2006, 17:18
Khorne, along with all the Chaos Gods, is a psychic entity. He has no physical form. None at all. Any and all actions taken by Khorne are psychic in nature. See the irony yet?

Okay i'm confused - i give in....i have no idea who the strongest deity is....but i still have a feeling we are missing the point that in WARhammer the strongest god should be a WARgod. but thats just my opinion.

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 17:30
War breeds change, hope and despair too. Does this not mean Nurgle and Tzeentch get just as much out of war as Khorne? :p

azimaith
17-12-2006, 18:24
Okay i'm confused - i give in....i have no idea who the strongest deity is....but i still have a feeling we are missing the point that in WARhammer the strongest god should be a WARgod. but thats just my opinion.
Why would a wargod be stronger than anyone else?

What about a Death God. "Hey i'm a war god, im so.."(Death god uses his power to kill wargod) Dead wargod.

But then a god of change says decides thats kind of dangerous to have around so he weaves fate so the "Death God" never existed, poof. Well the god of pleasure decides he doesn't want to suffer the same fate, so he tempts the followers of the god of change away and he ceases to exist, poof.

And since the death god never existed the wargod is back to being alive and he puts an axe into the back of the pleasure gods skull. But of course the god of change would have seen the whole "stealing followers" plot first so he simply pretended to die until he knew his enemy would get axed, and so on.

The strongest diety is the one who controls the most people. In most classical mythology gods don't fight that often without a much stronger patron to keep everyone in line for this exact reason. They instead fight with champions and avatars. So whoever gets the most/best followers is the "Best" god. In the case of warp spawned gods.


War breeds change, hope and despair too. Does this not mean Nurgle and Tzeentch get just as much out of war as Khorne? :p

If anything Khorne gets less out of war than everyone else. Nurgle would grow strongest on war, because *everyone* brushes with death on the battlefield, not everyone partakes in slaughter, or even violence for that matter (which doesn't mean you won't crash your car into a tree and die.) As for Tzeentch, well Tzeentch is the one who would have put the war there anyhow, so it would be to his advantage, even if we couldn't follow the skeins of reality and find out exactly how it benefited him, so he'd gain more too. Hell even *slannesh* would gain from war. Slannesh isn't simply a god who likes sex, slannesh is a god of vivid human emotions, excitement, despair, pleasure, pain, its all the same to him, Slannesh is a sensory god. Hes not a sex god.

All khorne would gain from his rather narrow portfolio is power from slaughter itself and the intent of slaughter (as once the slaughter happens the power goes to nurgle, god of death and pestillence.) The chaos gods are are pieces of a single whole, the only god capable of avoiding loss is Tzeentch.

hiveminion
17-12-2006, 18:35
=azimaith;1153718]
The strongest diety is the one who controls the most people. In most classical mythology gods don't fight that often without a much stronger patron to keep everyone in line for this exact reason. They instead fight with champions and avatars. So whoever gets the most/best followers is the "Best" god. In the case of warp spawned gods.





This also rules out the Emperor *again* as he has arguably the most followers, yet is still a drooling corpse sustained by the lifeforce of a thousand psykers every day.

Now stop voting for him!:mad:

azimaith
17-12-2006, 18:59
This also rules out the Emperor *again* as he has arguably the most followers, yet is still a drooling corpse sustained by the lifeforce of a thousand psykers every day.

Now stop voting for him!:mad:

One could claim that all humans worship chaos by *existing* at all. The only people who don't feed them are those with no emotions or no connection to the warp. And those who truly worship the emperor are really only those who are being killed for him, sure everyone else gives him mouth service but he doesn't sustain himself off that, he sustains himself from psykers. The Chaos gods sustain themselves off human emotions, thus they all worship them.

I don't count the emperor as a "god" in terms of needing belief to exist (which makes him more powerful than chaos gods in many ways) but in terms of power god hood seems pretty close, given of course the relative abilities of his fellow humans.

The same way the C'tan don't require anyone to worship them at all, but in terms of abilities they're pretty much gods.

hiveminion
17-12-2006, 19:01
You're right, I just wanted to point out your argument once again proves the Emperor isn't really a god (some would put 'yet' behind that phrase)

Mechanicus
17-12-2006, 19:25
You're right, I just wanted to point out your argument once again proves the Emperor isn't really a god (some would put 'yet' behind that phrase)
I presume that you haven't read the Thorian Sourcebook? It's on the Inquisitor Rules section of the Specialist Games site. Page 5 has this quote:

The Emperor really is a god, His ascension after the fight with Horus is very real. Like the other gods He exists within the Warp and in essence He is the god of Humanity. The one limitation to any god is that to have power over the physical world, they must rely upon mortals to do their work. The Emperor is in fact the greatest example of this the galaxy spanning Imperium is merely the material instrument of the Emperor. In a similar fashion, the Chaos gods must have Champions, possess worshippers or temporarily create physical manifestations in the form of Daemons. At the bottom line, the Warp is merely a reflection of the material world, and without mortals, none of the gods would exist. All of the existing background points towards the gods, and other Warp entities, craving after the physical universe.

azimaith
17-12-2006, 19:47
I wouldn't put much stock in stuff like that, because there are fluff pieces all over written from different perspectives that should all know the real truth that don't mesh right. Thorians believe that because they're Thorians, not necessarily because its true (though it may be.)

MrBigMr
17-12-2006, 21:06
The Emperor is a god because he is worshiped as such. It's enough.

azimaith
17-12-2006, 21:32
So if a Rogue trader came to a primitive world, flashed his bolt pistol about and shot some stuff to impress the locals and they figured he was a god, that makes hima god and on par with Khorne? I don't think so. Being worshipped is not enough to make one a god.

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 21:33
But thats exactly what The Emperor and the C'Tans did...

Warp_touched
17-12-2006, 21:53
Good Christ, Khorne hands down. He is the ******* god of war, he tanks everyone godwise sad to say...:cries:
And look at his ******* champions? Kharne and Angron? Like ****** is gonna mess with them!

Tymell
17-12-2006, 21:53
The Emperor is a god because he is worshiped as such. It's enough.

Not necessarily. In our world that may well be true, but in the 40K universe gods do more direct things, they are more tangible, they interact more directly with the physical world. As such I'd say the definition of god needs to be more strict.

MrBigMr
17-12-2006, 22:03
So if a Rogue trader came to a primitive world, flashed his bolt pistol about and shot some stuff to impress the locals and they figured he was a god, that makes hima god and on par with Khorne? I don't think so. Being worshipped is not enough to make one a god.

"One man with a gun can control 100 without one." - Lenin
History is full of situations just as you've said.
Remember American Indians when the Spanish rode in on their horses.
And what would you use to define a god? Are C'Tan gods? Are Eldar or Chaos gods gods?
C'Tan are gods because the Necrons worshiped them as such.
Khaine, Vaul and such are gods because Eldar worshiped them as such.
Chaos gods are gods because they're worshiped as such.
Emperor is god because he is worshiped as such.

A deity or god is a postulated preternatural being, who is usually, but not always, of significant power, worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by human beings.

So, a supernatural being. What is "supernatural". A century ago men flying was supernatural.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke
You take a bolt pistol to a tribe of cavemen and they'll worship you no matter what. As for "up to par", no. There's always bigger fish in the ocean. There are gods, big gods and even bigger ones.

azimaith
17-12-2006, 22:07
But thats exactly what The Emperor and the C'Tans did...
Yes, but the Emperor can turn a warhound titan inside out, and C'tan can have a solar system devoured by a black hole. Theres a massive difference in power level.

First off, I don't think the emperor is a god.

As for what makes a god:
In my opinion, the capability to physically effect a mass the size of a earth size planet without the aid of technology. Self-Contained Sentience (Thus no space craft with exterminatus arrays, and being worshipped as a god.

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 22:12
A lot of Alpha level Psychers can turn a Emperator Titan inside out, does that make them gods?

Eldar can destroy stars, does that make them a whole race of Gods?

Rockerfella
17-12-2006, 22:12
Yes, but the Emperor can turn a warhound titan inside out, and C'tan can have a solar system devoured by a black hole. Theres a massive difference in power level.

Its even arguable that the Emperor has no idea whatsoever that the C'tan even exist....

With him being a drooling ***** that has no idea who he himself is anymore... I wonder if he's even aware of the necron threat.

:chrome:

azimaith
17-12-2006, 22:16
A lot of Alpha level Psychers can turn a Emperator Titan inside out, does that make them gods?

If they are worshipped it makes them demi-gods. Very powerful, but not "there" yet.




Eldar can destroy stars, does that make them a whole race of Gods?
Eldar don't destroy stars without technology.


Its even arguable that the Emperor has no idea whatsoever that the C'tan even exist....

With him being a drooling ***** that has no idea who he himself is anymore... I wonder if he's even aware of the necron threat.

:chrome:
Like I said, I don't see the Emperor as a god. He can't affect planet sized objects alone from what i've read.

MrBigMr
17-12-2006, 23:00
If they are worshipped it makes them demi-gods. Very powerful, but not "there" yet.
Not very long, as the Inquisition will pretty swiftly execute any such person.


Eldar don't destroy stars without technology.
On the subject of the Eldar, what about wraithbone? Where does it land, as it is summoned from the Warp and altered via psychic powers.


Like I said, I don't see the Emperor as a god. He can't affect planet sized objects alone from what i've read.
C'Tan can't realy either. They have the ability leech stars, but they can't realy alter a planet. And the chaos gods have little power over the physical realm. They can only sponsor others to work for their part. When's the last time you saw a chaos god realy do any havoc in real space?

azimaith
17-12-2006, 23:11
Not very long, as the Inquisition will pretty swiftly execute any such person.

If theres one thing gods are *not* in 40k. Its invincible.



On the subject of the Eldar, what about wraithbone? Where does it land, as it is summoned from the Warp and altered via psychic powers.
Its tool making/using, thus technology. The substance its made out of doesn't matter. A large rock used to smash open a coconut is as much technology as a cellphone. Its just a much more basic variant.



C'Tan can't realy either. They have the ability leech stars, but they can't realy alter a planet.

Besides devouring all life on them and sucking them into black holes. I'd consider sucking a planet and the entire system its in into a black hole=affecting an earth sized planet (mind you of course its certainly not only earth sized, affect something bigger/other than a planet and its the same difference) I'm merely giving a sense of scale of what a god should be capable of altering. After all, a god of the sun doesn't necessarily need to blow up a planet, turning out the sun would be a similar display on a larger scale.



And the chaos gods have little power over the physical realm. They can only sponsor others to work for their part. When's the last time you saw a chaos god realy do any havoc in real space?
Whenever they created the last daemon world was the last time. Besides, who said they had to affect worlds in "real space" Its got to be the size of earth or larger, the user must be sentient and self-contained, and the power must not spawn from technology. The Chaos gods are gods of the warp, thus they wield power over the warp more so than anywhere else. The C'tan are gods of reality, thus they wield more power over reality.

Captain Micha
17-12-2006, 23:17
The Emperor why, for you may ask. No other dieties live on the material plane.

And the emperor has managed to survive for 10,000 years on a barely functioning life support/healing device (stupid high lords of Terra and Inquisition) .

Though my second highest regarded one is probably the Nightbringer or Deceiver. Afterall they are unkillable

azimaith
17-12-2006, 23:21
The Emperor why, for you may ask. No other dieties live on the material plane.

Other than the C'tan.



And the emperor has managed to survive for 10,000 years on a barely functioning life support/healing device (stupid high lords of Terra and Inquisition)
And the C'tan lasted 65million years on barren galaxy.



Though my second highest regarded one is probably the Nightbringer or Deceiver. Afterall they are unkillable
Actually they're not, you just can't kill them via conventional means like stabbing them or the like. You either eat them with another c'tan, shoot em with a black stone fortress, or chuck em into the warp by some other means.

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2006, 23:25
There was a whole race of C'Tan, remember, until they were tricked into eating each other.

Captain Micha
17-12-2006, 23:30
the deceiver did that. the dar wish they had that kind of diefic power. *L* Where was one actually killed? by something other than C'tan? Weaken maybe. Kill I dunno...

MrBigMr
18-12-2006, 00:17
If theres one thing gods are *not* in 40k. Its invincible.
Chaos gods. You can't see them even when in the Warp. C'Tan. The "visible" part is the Necrodermis, which is technology. Other than that, they're pure energy.


Besides devouring all life on them and sucking them into black holes. I'd consider sucking a planet and the entire system its in into a black hole=affecting an earth sized planet (mind you of course its certainly not only earth sized, affect something bigger/other than a planet and its the same difference) I'm merely giving a sense of scale of what a god should be capable of altering. After all, a god of the sun doesn't necessarily need to blow up a planet, turning out the sun would be a similar display on a larger scale.
I have never heard a C'Tan sucking a planet into a black hole, nor turning a sun into one.


Whenever they created the last daemon world was the last time. Besides, who said they had to affect worlds in "real space" Its got to be the size of earth or larger, the user must be sentient and self-contained, and the power must not spawn from technology. The Chaos gods are gods of the warp, thus they wield power over the warp more so than anywhere else. The C'tan are gods of reality, thus they wield more power over reality.
Aren't daemon worlds just normal planet inside the Eye of Terror? The former worlds of the Eldar empire.

Slaaneshi Slave
18-12-2006, 02:29
Aren't daemon worlds just normal planet inside the Eye of Terror? The former worlds of the Eldar empire.

Yep.

The messege you have entered is too short

Rockerfella
18-12-2006, 07:17
And the emperor has managed to survive for 10,000 years on a barely functioning life support/healing device (stupid high lords of Terra and Inquisition)


What about Cegorach??

;)

azimaith
18-12-2006, 07:45
Chaos gods. You can't see them even when in the Warp. C'Tan. The "visible" part is the Necrodermis, which is technology. Other than that, they're pure energy.

You can starve chaos gods or attack them with other gods.

The necrodermis doesn't allow the C'tan to bend the laws of physics, it concentrates its essence so that he can focus on the microcosm of most biological life.



I have never heard a C'Tan sucking a planet into a black hole, nor turning a sun into one.

Its in the necron codex.

They eat stars till they are dead and can no longer continue fusion. Its been a long time since my Astronomy classes but IIRC (which I may not) stars that stop expanding thanks to fusion collapse, and if they're massive enough (which the sun isn't according to scientists) it becomes a black hole.



Aren't daemon worlds just normal planet inside the Eye of Terror? The former worlds of the Eldar empire.
Yes, and what is the Eye of Terror from? The Birth of Slannesh. Plus they convert new worlds into daemon worlds as well.


the deceiver did that. the dar wish they had that kind of diefic power. *L* Where was one actually killed? by something other than C'tan? Weaken maybe. Kill I dunno...
From the fluff there was *mention*(Which doesn't necessarily mean there can't have been) of any C'tan being destroyed by anything other than another C'tan. One has been disabled by the Eldar gods however, the Laughing God tricking the Outsider into eating his brethren where their essences poisoned him driving him insane. (Then again the Deciever is also said to be the one who started cannibalism, so was the deciever pretending to be the laughing god or was it the other way around)

Rockerfella
18-12-2006, 07:54
(Then again the Deciever is also said to be the one who started cannibalism, so was the deciever pretending to be the laughing god or was it the other way around)

I believe they both mimicked each other....

The Laughing God tricked the outsider into devouring many C'tan, and to do the same. This is where the story splits.

The Bringer didn't go insane however, so this suggests some meddling by the laughing god. I think...:eyebrows:

MrBigMr
18-12-2006, 10:10
You can starve chaos gods or attack them with other gods.

The necrodermis doesn't allow the C'tan to bend the laws of physics, it concentrates its essence so that he can focus on the microcosm of most biological life.
Forget about it. Read/write Error coupled with some Guru Meditation Error.


Its in the necron codex.

They eat stars till they are dead and can no longer continue fusion. Its been a long time since my Astronomy classes but IIRC (which I may not) stars that stop expanding thanks to fusion collapse, and if they're massive enough (which the sun isn't according to scientists) it becomes a black hole.
Neutron star and supernova are the most likely follow up situations. Black holes occure only (maybe) on the biggest stars, and even then the process in not fully understood or seen. Just theories that's all.
And draining a star out would take the C'Tan pretty long time. It's not like they'd just pop on by and flip a switch. They just speed up the natural life of the star, so if one started to feed on our sun, humanity would have propably died out long before the start starts to shatter.


Yes, and what is the Eye of Terror from? The Birth of Slannesh. Plus they convert new worlds into daemon worlds as well.
Which was a straight result of the Eldar depravity and you banned the use of mediums. And when it comes corrupting stuff, it's the Warp energies that do it through the will of the gods, and as such cannot be counted, as you banned wraithbone, wich is also Warp shaped by the will of the bone singers.


From the fluff there was *mention*(Which doesn't necessarily mean there can't have been) of any C'tan being destroyed by anything other than another C'tan.
What about Vaul and his Talismen. But then again, you banned the use of mediums, so even though the ships are autonomous and forged by the Eldar god Vaul, they're out of the guestion. Same would propably go for Khaine, as he used his Spear.

Rockerfella
18-12-2006, 11:51
What about Vaul and his Talismen. But then again, you banned the use of mediums, so even though the ships are autonomous and forged by the Eldar god Vaul, they're out of the guestion. Same would propably go for Khaine, as he used his Spear.

So are we talking purely hand to hand here, without the use even of hand to hand weapons, as i assume they are mediums also. I guess the question is then, who would have won a fistfight. Khaine, or the bringer? :rolleyes:

MrBigMr
18-12-2006, 12:25
Like azimaith said, no use of technology. That's the godly way. Even using a rock would be tech, so Talismen of Vaul and Spear of Khaine are out of the guestion.

Rockerfella
18-12-2006, 12:30
Like azimaith said, no use of technology. That's the godly way. Even using a rock would be tech, so Talismen of Vaul and Spear of Khaine are out of the guestion.

Then i guess we'll never know huh.

When they fight in the warp, they don't use weapons, but since the C'tan arent to happy wallowing in the warp i don't think we'll ever find out.

In the story of Khaine's battle with the nightbringer, it is said that their blows shook the very earth and the mountains. So, we're dealing with some heavy hitting there.

Khaine's speed and skill was breathtaking, but the nightbringer let his foe wear his rage and anger out with the patience of death, apparently.

its an excellent piece of fluff and available to read on the GW web site if you guys haven't yet seen it.

:)

ss_cherubael
18-12-2006, 12:35
The God-Emperor of man kind.
He is the most powerful thing in any universe and time place, all who doubt this are heretics and will be burned for their evil thoughts.
GLORY FOR HIM ON TERRA! GLORY FOR THE GOLDEN THRONE!

azimaith
18-12-2006, 12:53
Neutron star and supernova are the most likely follow up situations. Black holes occure only (maybe) on the biggest stars, and even then the process in not fully understood or seen. Just theories that's all.
And draining a star out would take the C'Tan pretty long time. It's not like they'd just pop on by and flip a switch. They just speed up the natural life of the star, so if one started to feed on our sun, humanity would have propably died out long before the start starts to shatter.

In a fluff piece the void dragon devoured a star to become powerful enough to battle an eldar fleet. It was done in a matter of days/weeks.



Which was a straight result of the Eldar depravity and you banned the use of mediums. And when it comes corrupting stuff, it's the Warp energies that do it through the will of the gods, and as such cannot be counted, as you banned wraithbone, wich is also Warp shaped by the will of the bone singers.

The point is that it ripped out a huge section of realspace. Thats what makes slannesh a god. If a baby cries when its first born and it causes the doctor to explode into a pile of gore its about the child, not the doctor, mother, or father. It doesn't matter who birthed it so much as what it did as soon as it was born (which was devastate the eldar)



What about Vaul and his Talismen. But then again, you banned the use of mediums, so even though the ships are autonomous and forged by the Eldar god Vaul, they're out of the guestion. Same would propably go for Khaine, as he used his Spear.
I banned the use of technology to prove godhood. Thus a ship with an exterminatus array or Abbaddons planet killer is not a god, its a ship with a giant gun. Khaine is a god because he inspires and embodies the entire eldar martial spirit, not because he carries around a spear with an automatic martial spirit inspiring machine.

I'm not setting rules for a fight, i'm setting rules for what makes a god.

In a fight you could use whatever weapon you had at hand and the stronger god would win. Thus Khaine could use his spear against the nightbringer and the nightbringer could fight khaine (because he needs his necrodermis to fight physically) and they could duke it out (and have duked it out of course.)

Its relatively obvious that the blackstones and the talismans of vaul weren't especially good at destroying the c'tan because they were disabled/taken away before they even got to do their job.

If I *were* to set the rules however, i'd rule that your not allowed to use weapons that are out of body. It just leads to it being rather silly. "Khaine hits the Nightbringer with the talisman of vaul, the nightbringer traps Khaine in a null-warp field with pylons."

So they get to use their signature weapon in the fight. Unfortunately for the Nightbringer his "item of incredible power" was lost to him when the Eldar attempted to destroy him before he went into hibernation. So you'd be going Nightbringers scythe against Khaines spear, or whatever combo of gods you want.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
18-12-2006, 18:43
Gork and Mork, those are the only true gods.