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feintstar
10-12-2006, 14:42
OK, so I've got my proverbial behind handed to me a couple of times, and I've only used my mere underprepared HE list, which may do better in the future, but I can't help but feel desperate because of the sheer irritation this army causes me, and I'm looking for a new list to collect, and would like some advice on just exactly what are the weaknesses of the Asrai?

I know you're thinking low numbers, low toughness, but here is an example of my opponent's tactics: 3/4 forests, spellweaver and other nearby mages treesinging over 8 times per turn, probably more on occasion, I wasn't counting. I charge, he flees, and my pursual gets bogged in the forests, where he treesings until they're screwed. I get them into combat, and he uses the moonstone to get them not only out of combat, but behind me.

Meanwhile he's flanking with uber units of Wildriders with Treemen marching straight at you, and shooting from his invincible moveable forests, which I would dearly love to burn down.

Ultimately, like any guerilla war, it leaves you defeated and frustrated, sure he took some damage from direct damage spells mostly, but the rest of my army dies scarcely doing a thing: His units are too far away, skirmished and in forests - they can't really be shot at save by magic. His cavalry is too mobile to bring to combat on any terms but his. His treemen are tough enough to cope with whatever you throw at them (mostly) which gives him the space to do whatever he likes with the rest of his army. Ultimately, my core units are flanked, and they die, and all the rest is just a battle between heroes, and WE have damn good heroes.

But most of all, what makes the list so frustrating, is the bloody moving forest.

I fought a mixed game with them using skaven and did a lot better, but still lost for all the same reasons. Magic missiles are good, so are ratling guns, but ratling guns can be targeted by shooting, and the mage duel thing still balances, leaving his units to simply beat my units.

I've been toying with the idea of a Tzeentch/Beasts of Chaos list. I've also been toying with a magic heavy Bret list.

But overall, I just don't have an answer, with any list I can envisage, to an army that dictates movement, magic and combat phases, fighting only where it sees fit, and fleeing through forests faster than you can pursue when it can't. I can think of ways for my heroes to beat theirs, but who knows what new trick he'll come up with next time which means it won't work as planned: I need a way to make my UNITS beat his UNITS, and I can't think of an armylist, any armylist, from any race, that reliably can.

Except maybe undead. :)



Who are the Asrai's most feared opponent?

CarlostheCraven
10-12-2006, 15:05
I have a couple of comments-

Do you and your opponent realise that units that are immune to psychology cannot choose to flee? - IE wild riders, wardancers, all forest spirits - basically all the units that trouble opponents the most.

Tactics
Without knowing his exact list and without knowing yours, the best tactic against wood elves is flank protection first and foremost. To me, this means that unless he is extremely shooty - 40+ arrows per turn - I will turtle in a corner with my infantry blocks forming a tight, defensive semi-circle that will prevent him from flanking.

Place relevant warmachines between the units where possible - yes, your LOS will suck but the only way to get to them is through a frontal charge, which your blocks should be able to prevent.

Any units of cav should be placed to try to create an area-denial effect, charging only when a high likelyhood of success is there - do not allow yourself to be tempted into a charge that will result in you being flanked by multiple wood elf units - that way lies defeat.

When I have stuck to this plan against wood elves I have fared very well. When I set up in the middle of the board is when I have gotten rocked badly - at that point they are all the things you mentioned above.

Cheers,
Carlos the Craven

Glorfindel
10-12-2006, 15:35
And treesinging 8 times a turn how does he do that? You can't recast the same spell in the same turn!

Reinnon
10-12-2006, 15:39
treeman ancient = 2
treeman = 1
branchwraith = 1
Spellsinger= 1
Spellweaver/singer with the stave = a heck load

its easy to get 8 treesinging, without knowing the list its impossible to say how he did it.

remember, the stave allows you to cast treesinging more then once

feintstar
10-12-2006, 23:19
He had a spellweaver with the stave plus that ultra irritating 55 point item that made a mockery of my magic phase.

Or maybe one of those was on his other spellcaster, I dunno. And he had 2 treemen.

Thanks Carlos, that's really awesome advice. I reckon I'll have a better crack at it next time, but I still have some doubts, largely centred around the forests themselves.

I'f I set up in a corner with RBTs pointing out and spears pointing out, plus a couple of Cavalry units on territory denial, what happens when those waywatchers start pecking away at my expensive cavalry? If I charge them he either flees or they get wiped out, leaving my cavalry exposed and in a forest, and my overun doesn't get me out of it, and he surrounds it and destroys it. And also, he can move those woods to cover up all the fire and charge lanes. And then he can charge his Wildriders plus hero on a stag at one of my hapless spear units. The spears fold and he turns the flank, and I fold like a deck of cards without firing or charging significantly at all.

I can't assassinate the mages - it's virtually impossible. Which means I have to load up so heavily on antimagic that I can't face him in any of the other phases.

SO I ask again, what army do these guys actually fear? All I can think of is Ogre leadbelchers.

How do Lizards fair versus these guys? 6 Salamanders plus a maxed out Slaan might have something to say about this, while a saurus block can probably hold a wildrider charge... But again, I have to defend, I can't afford to get into those forests or all is lost, and he can move the forests, the forests can't be killed, and the forests are everywhere.

I don't like fighting on my enemy's terms.

Beastmen also ignore forests, correct? But being slower than the cavalry they face, I'm still not sure I can take it to them...

EvC
10-12-2006, 23:37
I've had the same problem- at a tournament a few months ago, I fought three Wood Elf armies in one day. At 1000 points it wasn't too bad, in fact I scored a massacre, but that was against someone who didn't know how to use the army.

Against the 2000 point armies... well, it was awful. I was Vampire Counts, which didn't actually help- how is it you think undead can defeat Wood Elves? The whole game, my opponents were moving around their super-speedy units, staying easily out of my charge arcs, while they stayed back and shot me, and picked whatever charges they liked the sound of. Pschology was a non-issue as most units in the Wood Elf armies are ItP, so with them controlling movement, shooting, combat and my bad luck in the magic phase, I had no options. I'd have got a better result if I simply hadn't set up half my units on the table.

Morgrin
11-12-2006, 00:02
Remember that a lot of the units in a close-combat Asrai army cannot flee, Wild Riders, Wardancers and Dryads for example.

He can move his forests, but must stop when they hit an enemy model, you can stop them from moving at all (or at least in a valuable direction) by placing models next to it.

Dryads are vulnerable to magic missiles and Wardancers/Wildriders against any form of shooting.

Some warmachines and other shooty stuff that needs no to-hit roll works nice, as well as TK archers that always hit on 5+

Treemen lose automatically against any fully ranked (+ std bearer and musician) unit, if he doesn't take a std bearer a Ld8 or 9 test ain't that hard to fail.

Spoonie
11-12-2006, 00:56
Some good advice so far. Another thing to consider is to not play on boards covered in trees all the time? Get a few buildings or something on the table too, a board with nothing but 5 patches of trees is asking for wood elf ownage. Now, depending on how far he moves those forests you just might need some more magic defense too.

max the dog
11-12-2006, 01:55
Fliers, use fliers if your army lists allows it. They may be expensive but will allow you to move faster than most Wood Elf units and won't be slowed by forests. Scouts are a good idea too. Anything that restricts his movement and forces him to react to you is a good idea.

matticusmaximus
11-12-2006, 02:07
go Empire. Bring two steam tanks and roll right into the forest.

Let's see him stop that.

haha but in all seriousness, it sounds like you're really getting pounded in the magic phase, which is surpising for HE. Just try bringing some more magic levels. Yea I agree the treekin are annoying, just try sitting back and blasting him with bolt throwers, archers, and mages and such. I haven't had much experience against WE but that seems like what you should try.

Reinnon
11-12-2006, 10:09
you can't have the stave and the wand on the same weaver, how many points were you playing?

CarlostheCraven
11-12-2006, 21:23
Allright, let me step into the role of a high elf player specifically, rather than trying to advise on general tactics for combating wood elves.

About waywatchers - they are more expensive that fully kitted Silverhelms, so if your opponent wants to shoot at them hoping for that odd killing blow, while the rest of his arrows clatter off your armour, then you should be more than happy for the exchange - the BS5 archers should be focusing on wittling down your ranks, not picking off the odd knight (aside from rank reduction, if you happen to field large knight units) here and there.

Other aids in dealing with wood elves - your incredible magic items
The elyrion banner (sp) is dirt cheap and should be placed on one of your cav units nearly every game (remember First Among Equals allows one basic unit to wield a magic standard) - ignoring terrain when moving is so useful, especially VS wood elves. Dragon Princes with that banner are almost worth it... almost.

In general, I would have at least one unit of elite infantry - either white lions or swordmasters - whose champion would carry the Blessed Tome for +1 LD within 6" allowing for at least Ld 9 for your entire turtle formation in the event you role poorly for Intrigue.

In terms of your magic defense, drain magic is your best friend - if you cast the high level version, the Spellweaver lord will be forced to role at least 3 dice to have moderate odds of success. This should enable you counteract the rest of his magic phase with relative ease.

Personally, I have also found that Elven Characters in chariots with Great Weapons (perhaps a slightly different option in 7th would be better) armed with magic bows is incredibly mobile and effective (Lord with Seafarer and Hero with 3x ST5 bow).

Also remember that Treemen are large targets which means that your bolt throwers can fire over your own units at the overgrown monstrosity.

Cheers,
Carlos the Craven

Neknoh
11-12-2006, 21:37
Don't load up on full anti-magic, he goes magic, you go High Elf Medieval Magic on his ass, I mean, drop a commet where he keeps his mages, use Uranons to snipe everything in the woods (he can't see through more than 2", meaning that if he wants to shoot, you will see him).

I am so sad that I would be the one to say this, but, nuke him using every power dice available to you

warlord hack'a
12-12-2006, 00:23
or play O&G:
- use cheap units of 40 gobbo's, put them in the nearby forests asap and stop the treesinging, it will take him 14 treesingspells to treesing that unit to death
- chariots are the woodelf bane: high manouverability, high missile fire resistance, high charge range and how do D6+1 S5 impact hits sound versus T3 troops...
- doomdiver: hit one skirmishing model and the unit getsd D6S5 hits
- fanatics, see doomdiver
- svg orcs: no matter how many get shot down, they will keep coming forward (provided the sacrificial gobbo units keep the forests where they are
- giant: see chariot bnut not resistant to missiel fire, still his charge range is nice..
- wolfboyz, 18" chargerange anybody?
- spider riders: woodies are not the only ones running at full speed through the forest and hey, my full speed is 4 inch faster than his!!


in short: with woodelves, somehow block the treesinging and then march forward through each available gap, preferably also through the forest. You keep doing this for three turns and he will be out of room to manouver, on tunr 4 you cn set up charges with what is left of your units and on turn 5 you charge home and THEN you see what T3 and no armour save and no rank bonus means..

Highborn
12-12-2006, 01:37
But overall, I just don't have an answer, with any list I can envisage, to an army that dictates movement, magic and combat phases, fighting only where it sees fit, and fleeing through forests faster than you can pursue when it can't.

That's your problem. You're talking about fighting the battle on the Wood Elves' terms.

High Elves should be able to dominate Wood Elf magic, and then some. For 8 treesingings in 2,000 points , he'll need

Branchwraith / Spellsinger (1)
Branchwraith / Spellsinger with Calaingor's Staff (4)
Treeman (1)
Treeman (1)
Spellweaver (1)

That leaves him with a grand total of one combat hero. What's more, those Bound Spell Treesingings are dispelled on a 2+ (Bound Spell, Power Level 3, High Elves get +1 to dispel). That's also assuming the Spellsinger throws all of his available dice at Treesinging, one die at a time, so only 2 will get through on average. That's also almost half his points in magic. He could replace a Treeman with a Branchwraith or spellsinger, but that leaves him with no combat heroes at all.


Three or four woods is a lot of woods on the table. The battle is definitely going to favour the Wood Elf.


12 Waywatchers (312) will, on average, hit your Silverhelms 10 times, wound 5 times, and between Killing Blow and the 2+ armour save, wound once. I'd happily sacrifice a ~24 point model each turn to keep 312 points and a rare slot of his engaged. Don't chase them.


I don't think this battle should be a huge issue - it's not a question of the list, it's a question of tactics.


High Elves should be able to out-magic Wood Elves any day of the week. If you're worried about his treemen, and if he's taking two of the buggers, then take a dragon. The Reaver Bow, if memory serves, does three or four shots? Against skirmishers, a High Elf character will still hit and wound on 2+. Use that to take out Wardancers. Repeater Bolt Throwers are great against elf fast cavalry, with 48" range. Just pick a corner, hold it, shoot/magic the elves and force them to meet you in combat on your terms. From the front, Wood Elves struggle to win fights. Use table edges and careful positioning to give him no other option.

feintstar
12-12-2006, 08:21
Thanks guys, I am very much appreciating the advice.

Nonetheless, I am having less problem with the archers than with that single most absurdly cheap-for-what-it-does unit - Wildriders.

I probably could outmagic the Wood Elf Player, with a couple of minor problems:

A: Miscasts
B: That stave thingy allowing dispell rerolls - This is a big issue. If I sink 4/5 powerdice into a cast of Drain magic, not only have I sacked 5 powerdice, but he can respond with a scroll, or 4 dispell dice with a reroll. And my chances of miscasting are much higher than his misdispelling, with much nastier consequences.
C; the issue of balance, having 1 combat hero would be nice, and a static gun/bowline doesn't sit well with me.
D. Magic Resistance and Ward saves on those cursed Wildriders
Also, taking out treemen with magic isn't so easy, while the Main problem, by my reckoning, is not that my magic can beat his magic, rather that my units can't even go evens against his units when they dictate the play.

The Banner of Ellyrion is good, admittedly, but Dragon knights versus Wildriders - wildriders every time. Same points cost too. Leave alone Wildriders versus spearelves. That just leads to a lot of dead spearelves.

Overall, Woodelf units are superior, and cheaper. Look at the equivalents - Eternal Guard versus Spearelfs, WE archers versus HE archers, Wildriders versus Dragonknights, Gladeriders versus Reavers.

Am I supposed to balance all that with solely my magic phase and my magic items? That may actually be the case, but it doesn't sit well with me. Especially considering the fickle nature of the winds of magic, esp in the new edition.

Still, I recognise that RBTs And Chariots may even the score considerably. I will invest in some chariots... Actually, a Great Many Chariots...

warlord hack'a
12-12-2006, 09:49
do that, impact hits will also take down wildriders and be joyful of every wildrider you kill, it's a lot of points!

But on general, you win from woodelves not by wiping out entire untis of him, but by getting a lot of units below half strength, at least, that's how it often goes with me.

Highborn
12-12-2006, 22:18
Miscasts - True. Live with it.

Ward Saves - Wood Elves don't get Ward Saves against magic. Wild Riders aren't the best target though. Aim your magic at everything else - I know Wild Riders are the biggest threat, but no Wood Elf unit holds up when isolated.

Rerolling Stave, Balance issues - Assuming he's running with what I suspected before:

Branchwraith / Spellsinger (1)
Branchwraith / Spellsinger with Calaingor's Staff (2)
Treeman (1)
Treeman
Spellweaver (1)

You can match that by taking

Noble with a Ring (1)
Noble with a Ring (1)
Mage (2)
Archmage (4)

That's 10 power dice, and only starting to draw close to the High Elf's magic potential. In return, he'll have 7 dispel dice and his scrolls and magic resistance. Give your Archmage seer, choose Death or Fire for a lot of fun magic missiles, and go crazy. If you play your dice well, you should be able to get one or two magic missiles off each turn after his scrolls have been burnt through. Best of all, you have two fighty heroes. I'd definitely recommend making one of those heroes another mage though - an extra dispel dice will be golden.


Regarding the static bowline game, you're not left with much choice. Either insist on playing with a more open field, or be prepared to lose. If you try and match the Wood Elves' manoeuvrability, the game's already lost. I have to disagree with hack'a though - units below half strength through magic are a good way of getting points, but the best way to win against Wood Elves is to force him into combats that aren't in his favour. The easiest way is to force frontal charges against resilient blocks like spearelves.

As for the units thing, Swordmasters rip through T3 like butter. Repeater Bolt Throwers will hit Wild Riders on 3s, wound on 2s and leave them with a measly 6+ save. Your eagles are 2 for 1. Eternal Guard are Special, Spearelves are Core. Spearelves also hold up better when charged. Pick your fights, and don't let the Wood Elves pick them for you. Most of all, don't walk into a battle with this defeatist attitude.

Lord_Byron
13-12-2006, 05:42
Because I have similar problems with the WE, I'm too eager to reply to read all of the previous replies before I post, so forgive me if I repeat any advice already given here.

Fortunately you play high elves, which has the best chance of any army against the broken wood elves, in my opinion.

The seer council works best. That is, 4 mages and 4 units of knights.

Archmage with high magic, seer and ring of corin on a barded steed.
3 mages with fire magic, seer and barded steeds.

3 units of silverhelms.
1 unit of dragon princes with the banner of sorcery.

Fill in the blanks with chariots and reapers.

When placing scenery, place one piece and call it your last.

Deploy far back in your deployment zone, and use your reapers to tease him out. Move your knights forward to get your mages into fireball range if you must, but avoid the temptation to charge. Fade back and keep casting. Don't be afraid to move your mages around between units to optimize line of sight.

Take fiery blast and fireball with all 3 mages, and concentrate on toasting forest spirits. Waywatchers shouldnt be a problem, as you can easily blast them out of the woods with magic and they are worth alot of points. Once they are gone, your knights should be very resilient to wood elf archery. Any glade guard that get within short range with their bows are also within charge range of your chariots.

Use the archmage to drop vauls/corin on the wand of wytch elm (the most broken item in the entire game as far as I'm concerned) after you have depleted the WE supply of dispel dice.

Your reapers will be the most vulnerable unit in your list to enemy fire, but they are the only thing that really stands any chance of hurting a treeman.

Treemen are NOT vulnerable to rank and file troops. They will simply dance around those units and hit them with strangleroot.

Your knights are the only troops available to you that will stand half a chance. Their high armor save will protect you from archery and the attacks of dryads and wildriders.

Infantry, as you have experienced, will be out-maneuvered and picked apart. Ignore any advice that suggests you defeat the WE with spearelves and swordmasters. They will never see combat unless they are drastically overwhelmed. Do not give your opponent the points.

The wood elf player in my area is very skilled, and completely dominates all comers with the same very broken and abusive build you seem to be facing. After facing the same heinous list for over thirty battles, I pulled out the High Elf Seer Council and massacred him twice in a row. Now he is collecting Orcs...

Good luck

Tutore
13-12-2006, 07:12
I play HE and I also think that the best way is to push magic. You may have 14-16 power dice if you want. You can have less and still win. Avoid gargantuan spells, use the simple ones. 3 lvl 2 mages and a prince with the gem of hoeth could be a good solution. If there is water on the field, I would also try the lore of life. There´s that interesting spell against unit in woods. But what I would really pick is the lore of the beast. It could make your day. One mage with high magic to cast antimagic could be a good idea, but I would avoid the "strong" version, it costs too many dice. Avoid using more than 3 dice per spell, you´ll cast 4 spells per turn, plus obviously the ring of fury.

warlord hack'a
13-12-2006, 09:44
as for my statement telling you win by reducing woodelf units to half, I should have been more precise.. Of course you win by engaging him in close combat, which is why my working tactic against woodelves is 'keep on marching forwards no matter how many hits you take'. But I am really good at rolling low for my pursuit roles so he often escapes with half his unit. And even if I do catch him there are too many of his points invested in very mobile units (waywatchers, glade riders and mages) which my infantry can not catch, so I send my suicide wolfchariot to do some damage: the chariot surely will get wiped out (66 points) but hopefully he will take with him to the grave 50% of the enemy unit, giving me more points than he got.. Also warmachines nibble off a little and it is these points that tip the balance in my favour.

But I have to agree, Woodelves are a broken list.

Morgrin
13-12-2006, 10:05
An army full of expensive T3 troops with little to no armour save and a "ward" save that doesn't work against any magical effect. Yes, very broken...

feintstar
13-12-2006, 11:11
@ Morgrin: You clearly haven't faced them.

It isn't the units, its the Trees. You can't kill the trees! But the Trees kill you!

I agree, Magic it will have to be. So far I've pulled my punches, now its time for the cheese factory, High elf style.

Suppose:
Archmage, Book of Hoeth, High magic, ithil barded steed
Mage, seer, powerstone, Heavens, Second sign, Comet.
Mage, seer, powerstone, Heavens, Second sign, Comet.
Mage, seer, powerstone, Heavens, Uranon's T Bolt, Comet.
(?steeds for these 3, plausibly on the chariots? Don't understand the rationale for mages on Chariots when they can be challenged or hit by CC attacks...)

10 Archers
6 Silverhelms, HA, FC with banner of Ellyrion, with Archmage
6 Silverhelms, HA, FC
6 Silverhelms, HA, FC

6 Dragon Princes, Banner of Balance
3 Tiranoc Chariots
12 Swordmasters, Banner of Sorcery

3 RBTs

So, scratch the magic defence with IF, 5PD vaul's unmaking, cast Drain magic with IF as well if possible, then drop 3 x 4 PD comets in one turn and force them to all land on the enemy mages at once using the Second sign. Then finish off the rest with further now unnopposed cometfalls, before I multicharge those cursed Treemen with Banner of Balance Knights, and everyone else tastes the banner of Ellyrion running them down.

Its the kind of list that feels grim, determined, and bloodyminded. It is rather unsporting. But I count this something of a flaw in the game. In 40K, rarely do you get unbeatably broken lists/tactics - mostly the medium lists have the capability of taking them down. This WE build, and the HE build I'd be facing it with, is ugly. It all just gets a lot less fun.

Renegade
13-12-2006, 11:49
i'm having trouble against wood elves as well. In fact at our club the only armies i seem to face are skirmish armies, like wood elves and lizardmen(noone uses saurus). I personnally think dat skirmish armies are the most boring and easiest armies to win with. Its like playing 40k without guns.

warlord hack'a
13-12-2006, 13:24
@ morgrin: true, but what does T3 and no armour save mean when they never see combat anyway and hide in woods to stay away from missile fire.. anyway, i know how to face woodies with my take all comers list, but it will not be a massacre for me with this list, just a draw or minor victory either way.

Reinnon
13-12-2006, 16:32
the wood elf army is pure offensive, we only have 1 fairly decent defensive unit, the EG.

true, the army is fragile.... but its sickening on the attack, a charge of wildriders, wardancers and dyrads is not a pretty experience :)

magic is the real weakness of the WE list, as forest spirits don't get their ward save against it and they often auto hit

this is the list i use:

Treeman Ancient: Annoyence of netlings, radiants
Spellsinger: lvl 2, stave and dispel scroll
Spellsinger: two dispel scrolls
10 glade guard
10 glade guard
8 dyrads
8 dyrads
8 dyrads
7 wardancers: musician
7 wardancers: musician
6 wildriders with warbanner
Treeman

that army so far as won me 8 games and lost twice.... while it has considerable magic defense (5 dispel dice and 3 scrolls) a strong magic pahse really gives me headaches

nightcrawler
13-12-2006, 18:20
High elves against wood elves huh... well I've had a little experience with that one and here's what worked for me.

1st of all there is no 1 on 1 compairison between units because if anything is entering into combat from either side then it has likely been whittled down or is being flanked.

Units that work well are as follows
1. Silverhelms with the banner of ellyeron. this was stated before and has the odvious movement advantage

2. White lions. For once their is actually a use for them, but you need to get the charge. I've used a unit of 10 and surpirsed some wood elf players when they run through a forest uneffected by the trees. They also hit hard enough on the charge that they can wound a treeman if the need arises(6WS5 S6 attacks arn't bad), although they likely won't survive the experience. If you bring them then don't be afraid to ignore their great weapons and use their normal S4 'punch' attack at high I.

Dragon princes are decent if they don't get bogged down in the forests. They have 2 advantages over wood elves, gigantic charge range and 2+ armor saves. They tend to dice dryads and skirmishers with ease. As for their banner, I'd give the ellyeron banner to silverhelms and give these guys either the powerdice banner or a war banner. Ignore the psycology one as it no longer eliminates stubborn (note: THAT SUCKS!!!!!)

3. Bolt throwers rock against wood elves and they fear these contraptions for good reason. Their crowd-pleaser shots can dice little units of fast cav and the Superbolt(tm) can wound a treeman. I'd take out the fast stuff first if the opportunity persents itself.

4. Shadow warriors shouldn't be forgotten. For some reason it really bothers wood elf players when someone else has scouts. Rob them of their forests as long as you can :) and don't expect these guys to survive the battle.

Now on to the stuff that works, but not as well for one reason or another
1. Swordmasters tend to get bogged down and shot to hell. If you can actually engage anything with them you'll easily win combat, but don't count on your opponent letting that happen.

2. Chariots. Some people swear by them against wood elves... Mine always get shot up and splintered. T4 with only 4 wounds and a 5+ armor save isn't going to save them. I personally like the option of more silverhelms as they are more survivable and can enter a wood if need be and not be reduced to rubble. Don't get me wrong, if you actually get a charge off then they'll be worth their weight in gold, but...

3. Archers are simply outclassed in this version and matchup. If you bring them then don't be worried when they start taking casulties because they will probably die. Take out their fast cav first!!!!! your quick stuff will get to their line eventually, but you don't want theirs alive to flank.

Stuff to leave at home
1. Spearelves shouldn't be on the field. t3, 5+ armor save slow moveing targets aren't going to see combat and will only cost you victory points. Leave them on the shelf until you go against something that they'll help you with..... um.... like chaos warriors?

2. Eagles. I have never had any luck with eagles agaisnt wood elves. If they don't get shot up in the first or second turn then they get outnumberd and beat down in combat against archers. Not much point in them in my view

3. Pheonix guard... um.... they're pheonix guard... nuff said

I'll make 1 more catagory for reavers. Fast cav is a tricky thing to use and can potentially be game winning. If your good with fast cav and keep them alive long enough feel free to bring them, but protecting them could cost you the game. Your call on that one.

As for characters, you have lots of options. Magic is a route that many in this edition like with the high elves. If your having problems with their magic then by going this rout your not going to have that problem anymore. I won't go into that though seeing as others have covered it well.

Combat characters can yeild some nice results. Things like the cloak of midnight (i think thats what its called... no book at work ect.) gives you the ability to scout. Stick him in with your shadow warriors and give him a killing weapon and they'll be able to dice scouts/waywatchers/dryads/wardancers or any fast cav with ease and you can count on a forest staying in your hands. (may want to give him some magic resistance if you can't protect him with your mages)

Dragons work but are expensive and the cry of cheese is bothersome. nuff said

Don't take a griffon

Don't let your fighters get involved in challenges. Sprites are obnoxious

Armor of the gods + greatsword is a useful combo when you stick your lord in a unit of white lions and attack a treeman. 4 S7 + 5 S6 attacks create lumber rather quickly.

Anyway, thats all i can think of right now. Hope some of it helps

Arhalien
13-12-2006, 18:36
Pit of shades on his treeman and treekin? (seems to be becoming m answer for everything, but I really love this spell!) Instant kill if they fail their initiative test, and on thier low I this may well happen.

nightcrawler
13-12-2006, 19:59
I got that off in a tourney against a treeman ancient once. I was almost sad to do it because with 1 spell I killed his general and his best unit. on a 3+ (i think) he gets sucked in.

Works well with giants, slann and steggadons as well

EvC
13-12-2006, 21:29
Hell, do it on a Slann in a Temple Guard unit and you'll destroy his greatest magic user and most expensive unit. How can you not? :D

warlord hack'a
13-12-2006, 21:56
besides, he's asking for it, he's the one putting a lot fo eggs in the treeman basket, how can he blaim you for dropping a rock on that basket..

Lord_Byron
14-12-2006, 05:48
I would definitely advise against taking the banner of elyrion or white lions. You do not want to enter the woods under any circumstances. Remember that treesinging, in addition to being able to move a fully-laden terrain piece 48 inches in one turn, can also inflict D6 strength 4 hits on anything in the forest. You can easily suffer 8D6 strength 4 hits in one turn, which will demolish even 2+ save knights. Fortunately, High Elves get that nice +1 dispel to aid against many small, repetitious spells. The wood elves also have the Deepwood Sphere, which does a strength 5 hit on every model in the woods in the Wood Elf phase. Oh yeah, and a treeman's strangleroot attack upgrades to str 5 if you're in the woods, so even if you have magical defense like the Amulet of Purifying flame you'll still be taken apart with 'shooting'. Don't go in there.

On the other hand, taking some shadow magic with one of your seers is a very good idea. Not only can you throw Pit of Shades, but you can also drop your mages from any threatened cavalry units and still get to charge with the Unseen Lurker.

CarlostheCraven
14-12-2006, 14:15
I would counter Lord Byron's argument by stating that it is the banner of elyrion that will carry you safely from one side of the woods to the other, it is when you do not have it that you get bogged down and rocked by the singing.

Other comments - yes, seer and knights would work rather well, but that style of game play gets boring quickly. The challenge of winning with variety (rather than "balanced") of forces working together to prevail is so much more rewarding, or at least that has been my experience.

Cheers,
Carlos the Craven

feintstar
14-12-2006, 15:45
How does everyne feel about HE Dragons vs WE?

Lord_Byron
14-12-2006, 15:54
Let me counter CarlostheCraven's counter by saying that you do not want to be charging, pursuing, or overrunning into woods if you can at all avoid it. Chances are there will be a unit in the woods which will halt your movement anyway, as the WE player I face will pack his woods with 3-5 units, as many as he can fit. Now while you're stuck in combat, you cannot be targeted by treesinging or strangleroot, but I believe Feintstar has already noted that his opponent takes that dastardly item which will allow his WE to teleport out of combat, leaving the HE alone and unengaged in the woods, vulnerable to all the nasty things I mentioned in an earlier post.

I agree completely that a seer council build is not balanced or much fun to play with, but the wood elf build he is facing is not balanced or fun to play against. In fact, as I have stated, it is in my opinion very broken. If the wood elf player was taking a more balanced list himself, this thread would not exist.

I don't mind losing a game. Heck, I dont mind losing alot of games. That's why I play Ogres mostly... but if the WE player is bringing the same abusive list with little or no variation game after game after game... there aint no shame in stooping to his level for a game or two with the seer council.

nightcrawler
14-12-2006, 18:40
Isn't there a gem or something that will give MR1 and immunity to fire or something. I don't remember the name of it right now but it would be a great item for champs of a dragon prince unit or a character in a silverhelm unit (either of theses units is assumed to have the ellyeron banner). treesinging dammage on the knights hardly ever goes off against this unit as your +1 to dispel applies and your unit gets a free die each time your oppenent targets that unit.

Can work with white lions with the banner of arcane protection (MR2) essentually denying the wood elves a forest to use/move and forcing them out into the open.

This won't help against the strangleroot attack, but its your best option to drive them out of the forests. If a wood elf player is good then your going to have some units forced into a forest (or become useless). its better to take the banner and drive through the forest than to turn around, wheel, and slowly move around the forest.

You can win without using the seer council, but you seem to lack confidence. High elves were nerfed in 6th edition, but they still do well against other elves.

DeathlessDraich
14-12-2006, 19:38
Suppose:
Archmage, Book of Hoeth, High magic, ithil barded steed
Mage, seer, powerstone, Heavens, Second sign, Comet.
Mage, seer, powerstone, Heavens, Second sign, Comet.
Mage, seer, powerstone, Heavens, Uranon's T Bolt, Comet.
(?steeds for these 3, plausibly on the chariots? Don't understand the rationale for mages on Chariots when they can be challenged or hit by CC attacks...)
12 Swordmasters, Banner of Sorcery

3 RBTs


1)Seer/Magic 3 mages with Seer honour will be effective. Your choices of spells using Seer is unexpected! Level 2 mages will fail more often than not when trying to cast Comet.
Master of the Wood (6+) is an obvious choice and there will be enough power dice to attempt this 3 times per magic phase. Combine this with Howler Wind which will render WE shooting ineffective..

2)Chariots It's a mistake to use chariots against an army that moves within woods. Treesinging will easily frustrate your chariots. This is the tactic I used when playing WE against 3 DE chariots.

3) HE Shooting 4 Repeater Bolt throwers will turn the tables in the shooting phase. Longer range, better strength. Keep them protected and you've turned the tables on the WE player - He will have to come after you for a change. 4 Bolt throwers will easily decimate Waywatchers and Glade Guard.

4) Hail of Doom/Bow of Loren Hide your 1st few units during deployment until you find out where the characters will be deployed. A WE player will use Hail of Doom in round 1 or 2. Don't allow him to choose easy soft targets for this. Anticipate the movement of his Highborn (if he has Bow of Loren) and Noble - a 5" radius, before you move your units. If he has arcane bodkins, he will want to target your knights. Keep them in a position where the Highborn has to expose himself to shoot effectively.

5) WE Ambush: A WE player will tend to set up at least 1 'ambush zone' - usually an open space flanked by 2 woods/terrain with his units in the woods or behind them. Ignore this and focus your attack elsewhere, hopefully going around them.

6) HE Spearmen If you do use them, they can actually hold against Wild Riders especially if you're 6 wide. You might lose 5 men but with 14 attacks back you could slay 1 or 2, enabling you to at least hold and possibly flank charge them with cavalry.

Good luck!

CarlostheCraven
14-12-2006, 20:17
Byron, those must be some huge woods your group plays with for 3-5 units to fit. Does your opponent stack his models on top of each other? LoL!

I will admit I am assuming a level of competency on Feintstar's part not to commit obviously foolhardy charges - though if the other units present are not immune to psych it may well be worth doing for the panic factor alone.

All this advice really means nothing without the player knowing when to pick his spots. Wood Elves are patient hunters - you must play defensively and force him to commit to attacking a particular portion of your force, unless you have superior mobility and speed, at which point you have the option to flush him out.

6 Silverhelms with HA and Sh are dirt cheap, weighing in at less than 140 points - they are entirely sacrificial against wood elves. The unit with the Banner of Elyrion is less sacrifical because of the VP bonus if their standard is captured, but still very useful if you pick the right spot for them.

Draich, I can see how you would frustrate the DE player with his cold one chariots, especially if he failled his stupidity test. However, the superior selection of magic bows available to High Elf characters (riding in said chariots) helps to compensate for this a great deal. The BS 6 bow of th Seafarer is excellent for hunting treemen. The BS 6 Reaver Bow is capable of dropping most troops in cover with ease, with even waywatchers not being untouchable against it - you should drop 2 per turn.

Cheers,
Carlos the Craven

alenui
16-12-2006, 01:30
Ranked units are the best thing to take on treeman and tree kin if you can get one on one. As has already been said this is difficult although bolt throwers can force a treeman into combat.

I'm personally using a no magic army, against woodelves i suffer if there are plenty of woods but tend to win if not, i field three bolt throwers. I think the best thing to do is go heavy on magic and bolt throwers and a hero with the reaver bow with a nice balance of other troops (definitely some ranked infantry) you need to get good firing lines and a be able to stop most of his tree singing (probably a archmage and 2 normal, with 4 scrolls).

If you play the scenario in the front of the book you can limit him to two sets of trees which should help considerably but i don't know how you deploy terrain.

ghengismark
16-12-2006, 07:36
There have been a lot of great suggestions, so I don't have to much to add but to back them up. Mobility is the WE greatest advantage, both with shooting and combat. The only way to counter that is to get mobile yourself. White Lions, Banner of elerian and reavers. WE will just dance around slow, meating blocks of infantry. Also, try to beat them at their own game of shooting by using 2-4 RBTs.

Chicago Slim
17-12-2006, 01:43
Agreed-- if you let the Wood Elves dominate movement and shooting, you've got a very hard row to hoe. If you challenge them on both of those, even if they come out with the advantage (and they probably will), then you can buy yourself some space and time to develop your own offenses.

Dragon Princes are an excellent foil to wood elves (esp. with the Banner of Elyrion-- remember, not every piece of difficult terrain is woods! Put some non-woody difficult terrain down yourself, and see if he'll be so kind as to move some skirmishers into it, for your Dragon Princes to run down...) Also remember that your Drakemaster can carry a 25 point magic item-- consider making it the Sword of Might (S4, even after the charge, and no ward saves!)

For the treeman, bring White Lions or Swordmasters-- S5 and S6 will cut him down, especially if you've scuffed him up a bit with a couple of RBT shots. Consider a Commander or Prince out with the Foe Bane (2+ to wound vs treemen, tree kin and Lords, though it doesn't do much to the Treeman's armor save...)

Pisy
17-12-2006, 08:30
Swordmasters will be shot down, i think they are only played vs armies without shelling. At least on the tournaments in my vicinity, every WE general has two treeman. i m sure when all bolt throwers focus on a treeman it won't survive. at least i often lost one.

Chicago Slim
18-12-2006, 12:31
High Elf bolt throwers, in single-shot mode, are 3+ to hit a treeman at long range, 2+ at close range. They wound on a 4+, unless the treeman makes his 5+ Ward save, causing d3 wounds. That's a total EW per shot of 5/9 at close range, 4/9 at long range. To reliably (~80% confidence) inflict 6 wounds and kill a Treeman, you should expect to need at least 12 close range shots, or 14 long range (or some combination thereof). 4 RBTs could do that in 4 turns, if they have a clear shot every turn (ie, the Treeman doesn't get stuck in).

For the record, multi-fire is even worse, because the Treeman gets a 5+ armor save, in addition to the 5+ ward (EW per RBT per turn = 0.37 close, 0.30 long).

Assuming the wood elf fills his rares with treemen, and the high elf fills his rares with RBTs, it's unlikely that RBT shooting alone will kill those treemen before the end of the battle, even if the RBTs fire at nothing but treemen, and never get charged.