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View Full Version : Terminators with Storm Bolters, Gks and Storm Bolters, and PFs Questions



redbaron998
14-12-2006, 13:06
Ok a few fluff/basic usage questions

1. A pf creats a disruption field around itself right? This field distorts and renders useless armor and steel plates thus explaining its effectiveness. My question is why would the strength of the field depend on how strong the wielder is? Shouldnt a Guardsmen with a PF be just as effective hitting power wise as a marine? I guess one could debate they are petty quality PFs...


2. A terminator wields a Storm Bolter in one hand like a Marine would hold a pistol by a handle correct? The BT codex shows a great side pic of this in action (dont have the codex on hand so cant say PG #). Therefore why would a terminator not be able to bash in the side of a enemies head with it like a Sm does with a pistol? Should not a storm bolter be counted as a one-handed weapon in CC (Kinda like a kai gun becomes one-handed for a Daemon Prince) I have never heard of a Terminator needing to fire a storm bolter with both hands???


3. A GK terminator's storm bolter is actually mounted on its wrist completely leaving the hand open, prusmably to better wield his halbard. So them out of all should not count SB as 2 handed.

4. A GK in power armour uses its storm bolter also simi mounted on its wrist which can be seen on pg. 6 of the DH codex. The model shows a bracing bar that the GK uses to steady the SB in his hand (which probably includes the trigger assembly), while Pg 9 of the codex shows the SB completely back farther on his wrist not connected to his arm at all like the Termies use it My question is does this bracing bar really exist or not and if so how does a GK wield his halbard properly? A halbard is a rather long weapon and using it one hadned would be extremely hard, and the GK books talk about the Knights using thier halbards with both hands as logic would suggest. If the bar does it exist how do the Knights accomadate for it to properly wield thier halbards. I am thinking maybe the bolter draws back into a stored position.

==Me==
14-12-2006, 13:15
1) Well, a Marine can normally swing harder than a guardsman, so the PF magnifies this. A PF is large and heavy, but a marine can swing it with more force than a guardsmen due to his increased musculature and resultant larger momentum.

2) A Storm Bolter is large and unwieldy, the extra attack from 2 ccw represents being able to swing and block with two weapons as opposed to one, allowing you to get more attacks in. Termies are bulky and slow, and the a storm bolter is large and bulky too, whereas the PF is integrated into the armor and is more or less a second hand.

3) He has a free hand to allow him to wield his halberd, so he runs it two handed. A fist does not an extra attack make. Plus, termie armor is bulky and slow, no matter how shiny it is :P

4) I would think the GK is mind-linked to his armor via the Black Carapace and probably controls the SBs position, putting out the stabilizing bar when ready to fire and withdrawing it when it's time to fight. With all the training they get in and their advanced gear, I doubt it is less than second nature to them.

Mobiboros
14-12-2006, 13:20
My question is why would the strength of the field depend on how strong the wielder is?

The way to explain this is with a real world example:
Take a sword. Assume the sword itself is virtually indestructable. Hone the edge to a razor-fineness with a laser. Give it to the average person. Can they cut through a cars engine block with it in one swipe? No. Because the strength of the wielder isn't sufficient to push the blade through the metal of the cars engone.

Same with a power fist. It's a marvel of melee combat weaponry, but it's only going to be as good as the person using it, even if it does enhance their ability to do damage.



2. Therefore why would a terminator not be able to bash in the side of a enemies head with it like a Sm does with a pistol?

They can. But since it's not a pistol, and not really even pistol sized in a terminators hands, it doesn't count as an additional close combat weapon. It's a "2-handed weapon" because while the figs show terminators firing one handed there is no way you are really pistol whipping anyone with any kind of speed with something so big and bulky.

Sir_Turalyon
14-12-2006, 13:29
2. A terminator wields a Storm Bolter in one hand like a Marine would hold a pistol by a handle correct? The BT codex shows a great side pic of this in action (dont have the codex on hand so cant say PG #). Therefore why would a terminator not be able to bash in the side of a enemies head with it like a Sm does with a pistol? Should not a storm bolter be counted as a one-handed weapon in CC (Kinda like a kai gun becomes one-handed for a Daemon Prince) I have never heard of a Terminator needing to fire a storm bolter with both hands???

3. A GK terminator's storm bolter is actually mounted on its wrist completely leaving the hand open, prusmably to better wield his halbard. So them out of all should not count SB as 2 handed.


That's why Terminator Armour used to give additional attack, why it does to Chaos Marines and why Terminators have two attacks on profile. New marines Codex messed it up a bit.

redbaron998
14-12-2006, 13:35
The way to explain this is with a real world example:
Take a sword. Assume the sword itself is virtually indestructable. Hone the edge to a razor-fineness with a laser. Give it to the average person. Can they cut through a cars engine block with it in one swipe? No. Because the strength of the wielder isn't sufficient to push the blade through the metal of the cars engone.



Take that same sword and give it a power field kidna like a Light saber/power weapon, now can he? WOuldnt the sword melt through the engine block regardless of the strength...you could technically jsut drop it on it and it would melt through..albeit slowly

noneedforaname
14-12-2006, 13:43
first things first

power fist need a power source,

a large terminator PF can incorporate a much bigger power source as it has a stronger support frame than a guardsman therefore better bang for your buck.

next size of weaponry

take a baking tray if you swing it flat it goes slowly because or air resistance, swing it on edge it goes quickly less air resistance.

therefore the bulk of the weapon has to be taken into account as it affects the nimbleness of the weapon.

And yes two handed weapons can be used one handed, i have even seen a martial artist wield two naginata's (japanese pole arms) simultaneously, one in each hand.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
14-12-2006, 13:48
1. A pf creats a disruption field around itself right? This field distorts and renders useless armor and steel plates thus explaining its effectiveness. My question is why would the strength of the field depend on how strong the wielder is? Shouldnt a Guardsmen with a PF be just as effective hitting power wise as a marine? I guess one could debate they are petty quality PFs...
the 2nd ed answer was that all Power Fists were Strength 8, regardless of the user's Strength. the 3rd-4th ed answer is that the Strength of the Fist depends on the strength of user. maybe stronger warriors wear bigger fists (which they do, if you compare the IG Commissar to an SM with one), hit harder or can lug around bigger field generators?


2. A terminator wields a Storm Bolter in one hand like a Marine would hold a pistol by a handle correct?
actually, i would say they wield one more like a Marine would hold a Bolt Gun in one hand. does that answer your question?


Therefore why would a terminator not be able to bash in the side of a enemies head with it like a Sm does with a pistol?
well he can: he can choose to make basic attacks (as opposed to being forced to use the Power Fist even when he doesnt want to - p46, Rulebook). its just that its too cumbersome/his armour is too bulky for him to be able to use it as easily as a Marine uses a Pistol, so no +1A as well. its probably for game balance too (i dont see any other reason for stopping Termies getting normal Pistols).


3. A GK terminator's storm bolter is actually mounted on its wrist completely leaving the hand open, prusmably to better wield his halbard. So them out of all should not count SB as 2 handed.
"2-handed" is a game mechanic - it doesnt mean that it actually takes 2 hands to use the weapon. even if its wrist mounted, its still kinda unwieldy, and Terminator armour is still quite bulky, dontcha think?


4. A GK in power armour uses its storm bolter also simi mounted on its wrist which can be seen on pg. 6 of the DH codex. ...
dont know much GK fluff, so i dont know about the SB moving back and forwards etc.
in CC, the fact that Power Armour is less cumbersome than Termi Armour could explain the +1A for True Grit (due to the GKs training) - you could hold the halberd in 2 hands whilst firing the Storm Bolter from your wrist - being able to move easy makes it far more likely that you can actually aim while doing this.

hope that helps :)

~ Tim

Wolflord Havoc
14-12-2006, 13:57
I think that it comes down to a 'size does matters' thing - a Space marine is capable of carrying a much larger powerfist.

As for Storm bolter adding an extra attack etc as a one handed weapon - the stats on the marine are not purely representative off '2' powerfist attacks but also the Terminator using the suits mass, Stength and bulk to crush, knock over, imtimidate his opponents and the Storm Bolter is still probably used (Close Combat is after all 'Close combat' not just hand too hand combat). Think of the Terminators (and any other models) attacks as a combination of effects.

This moves me on to the Wrist mounted Storm Bolter for GKs - again I imagine that the weapon is still used in CC in combination with the Nemisis Halbard.

John Vaughan
14-12-2006, 14:26
I have to admit, the baking pan description has me sold!

noneedforaname
14-12-2006, 19:06
i really should be a teacher *CLANG* lol :)

Mobiboros
14-12-2006, 19:15
Take that same sword and give it a power field kidna like a Light saber/power weapon, now can he? WOuldnt the sword melt through the engine block regardless of the strength...you could technically jsut drop it on it and it would melt through..albeit slowly

Yes but really, really slowly it would melt through and cutting would still be affected.

To Star Wars geek a moment, lightsabers don't cut through things effortlessly regardless of strength. It takes Qui-Gon a while to cut through the dense blast doors. It skitters of Darth vaders armour.

This time, or deflection is represented in game mechanics by saying that the field does enhance what you can do, but what you can do at base still affects the outcome.

The Song of Spears
14-12-2006, 19:29
[QUOTE===Me==;1146619]1) Well, a Marine can normally swing harder ...
...
...
/QUOTE]

Good Answers! It really gave me the ideas behind the gear! :)

Angelus Mortis
15-12-2006, 11:03
I like to think of Powerfists as a Space Marine walking around with a set of the Jaws of Life on his arm. While they would be very unwieldy and slow in melee, God help the guy you hit with them. Being that a Space Marine is stronger and faster, he can therefore use them better.

Sceleris
15-12-2006, 11:22
Yes, sm terminator armour used to give the wearer +1A to effectively represent their 2nd close combat weapon (CSM armour effectively still does). This was then changed (IIRC) to termie honours giving you the extra attack and only those with honurs can take the armour.

Don't grey knights have the true true grit skill so the DO get an extra attack for the stormbolter?

IJW
15-12-2006, 11:54
Don't grey knights have the true true grit skill so the DO get an extra attack for the stormbolter?
Existing rules threads on True Grit, Bolters, Storm Bolters and Grey knights:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58138
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58428

It's been covered pretty comprehensively.