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Cheesejoff
10-07-2005, 19:27
"The white lion cloak that gives the White Lions of Chrace their name and gives them +2 armour save versus missle fire"

If this is given to a character as part of the white lion honour, does he benefit from the save? According the the book he does not. Any thoughts on this? Is this another wording mistake or what?

Darius Rhiannon
10-07-2005, 20:14
Read the honour description.

"tge character comes equipped with a lion cloak"

Link that to the bold entry on the top of the same page (pg 15 HE armybook). Lion Cloak.
The part you qoute comes from this Lion Cloak Entry.

So in short, the book does say that characters with the honour, have the cloak, and the entry under Lion Cloak makes clear the effect.

So yes, characters do get it and, I cannot see why you think it does not support this interpretation ;)

Cheesejoff
10-07-2005, 20:41
In the fluff it makes it clear, however, it does not say in the rules that characters gain +2 save vs shooting.

Xavier
10-07-2005, 21:20
The entry for the white lions only saying they are equiped with the cloak, for the description of what it does one must look to the high elf armoury. When you read the description for Lion Guard, the Honour, it says the character comes equiped with the lion cloak, this meas he gets the +2 save against shooting. It is as simple as that, I have no idea why you are finding this so hard to understand. It doesnt need to state that characters benefit from it, as it is a piece of equipment.

Reinnon
10-07-2005, 21:59
its the same as saying:

the character doesn't get the str bonus for the great weapon as the entry doesn't state he gets +2 strength.

however, the rule states that a model with a great weapon does gain +2 strength.

so therefore, if the lion guard honour says he has a lion cloak, he has all the special rules for being equipped with the lion cloak, even though the lion guard honour doesn't repeat the rule.

Cheesejoff
14-07-2005, 14:42
No...let me give you an example.

The rules for the Banner of the Barrows states that any wights in the unit hit on a 3+. It does not mention any bonuses for necromancers in the unit. So, according to your logic, where we ignore the item descriptin, necromancers in the unit hit on a 3+. It says only Wights get the bonus, my necromancer is not a Wight. So he gets the bonus!

The rules for white lion cloaks state that White Lions get a saving throw bonus. It does not mention characters that take the cloak. So, according to your logic, where we ignore what it says in the description, my character gets the saving throw bonus! It says only White Lions get the save, and he's not a White Lion, so he gets the save! Genuis!

(Sorry about the above post, but it had to be done)

*The first example has been edite*

Kiro
14-07-2005, 15:00
The character gets a lion cloak, and a lion cloak gives a +2 bonus against saving throws from missile weapons. Ergo, the character gets a +2 bonus if he has a lion cloak :eyebrows:

McMullet
14-07-2005, 16:06
No...let me give you an example.

The rules for wight blades say that wights gain killing blow from them. It does not mention characters that join the unit. So, according to your logic, where we ignore what it says in the description, if my necromancer joins the unit, he gets killing blow!!! It says only wights get it, and he's not a wight, therefore he gets killing blow!!

The rules for white lion cloaks state that White Lions get a saving throw bonus. It does not mention characters that take the cloak. So, according to your logic, where we ignore what it says in the description, my character gets the saving throw bonus! It says only White Lions get the save, and he's not a White Lion, so he gets the save! Genuis!

(Sorry about the above post, but it had to be done)
So is your point that the Lion Cloak description only refers to White Lions, and not anyone else, getting the save bonus? I think this is a case of taking the wording of the rules a bit too literally... It's just a minor oversight in the way it's written. The character wouldn't have the Lion Cloak if the Lion Cloak had no effect. There's no cut and dried proof of this (unless there's a FAQ around somewhere), but I don't think it should really be necessary. The intent of the rule is pretty obvious, as evidenced by the fact that everyone is having trouble understanding your argument.

A Lion Cloak gives a White Lion +2 AS vs shooting. That's all the rules tell us. Common sense dictates that the effect would be similar for anyone else who has one.

The example with the Necromancer doesn't really work.

Cheesejoff
14-07-2005, 16:24
I've changed the necromancer example now.

Yes, if I played a game of Warhammer, and someone's character took the cloak, then I would allow him to gain +2 save vs shooting. This is a purely theoretical argument, posted out of curiosity, really. :p

T10
14-07-2005, 16:26
I am sure most will admit that CHARACTERS are not mentioned in the Lion Cloak entry.

However, the Lion Cloak is not a special rule assosciated with the White Lions. It is a piece of equipment. In short, if a model has a Lion Cloak then it gains the benefit of having a Lion Cloak.

-T10

Cheesejoff
14-07-2005, 16:30
You could take my argument even further...it says "White Lions" are given a +2 bonus vs missle fire by the cloak. It doesn't say "the model wearing it". It says White Lions. A true rules lawyer could take this to mean that for every model with a Lion Cloak, every White Lion gets a +2 bonus vs shooting. And does this ability stack? If you have a unit of 20 White Lions, they have a minus 34+ save against shooting!

Kiro
14-07-2005, 16:33
Look at the flipside of the rule. If the cloak only benefits "white lions", then what's the point in giving it to a character? :eyebrows:

Cheesejoff
14-07-2005, 22:10
Look at the flipside of the rule. If the cloak only benefits "white lions", then what's the point in giving it to a character? :eyebrows:

What's the point in me giving the banner of the barrows to a vampire thrall? If he doesn't join a unit of wights, it's 45 pts down the drain.

Kiro
15-07-2005, 01:09
What's the point in me giving the banner of the barrows to a vampire thrall? If he doesn't join a unit of wights, it's 45 pts down the drain.

If had the VC book, I might know what you mean. I take it from your example that you're implying the Lion Cloak would only work if the character joined a unit of White Lions? Well, the text for the item contradicts this.

Darius Rhiannon
15-07-2005, 09:26
The rule book says under Lion Cloak.
The white lion cloak that gives the White Lions of Chrace their name also gives them a +2 save versus missile fire. In close combat it is thrown back over the shoulder and offers no additional protection.

The white lion cloak simply describes what colour the lion is. E.g. White. The White Lion cloaks also gives the unit their name and a +2 save.

Now the description of the Lion Guard states that the character with the honour, receives a cloak. And that the honour makes the white lions a 0-1 special choice.

What this implies is that anyone you give the cloak to becomes a white lion.

T10
15-07-2005, 11:14
What's the point in me giving the banner of the barrows to a vampire thrall? If he doesn't join a unit of wights, it's 45 pts down the drain.

I can only assume that this banner somehow only benefits a unit of Wights.

Your statement is akin to "What is the point of the Pegasus having the Flying ability? If you put it into a unit of knights, it is completely useless!"

In other words, any rule, item, equipment etc. can be "useless" if you avoid the situation in which they apply.

A great weapon is useless if you don't get into combat.
A mount is useless if you don't move.
A cannon is useless if you don't shoot.

You get the idea.


-T10

Cheesejoff
25-07-2005, 14:47
To take an example from 40k, a chaos dreadnaught can be effectively downgraded by making it slaanesh and taking the slaanesh weapons. This costs 0 pts, but it's for conversion purposes.

The Lion Cloak comes with the LG honour, and provides no benefit for 0 pts, but is probably for conversion purposes.

Surely it's not that hard to understand?

T10
25-07-2005, 15:16
I see that you are trying to draw some sort of connection here, but quite frankly it falls short of the mark.

In the case of a WH40k Dreadnought taking Slaanesh weaponry it still gets the weapons. It's not saddled with some sort of equipment or rule that has no bearing on it - e.g a +2 to armour saves against missile attacks.

-T10

Reinnon
25-07-2005, 15:16
ok ok, a poorly worded rule (well, not that poorly).

whats so difficult to understand, your whole arguement is that the lion cloak rules only benefit white lions.

However, no where in the lion cloak rules does it say "only used by white lions", all it states is "it gives the white lions their name".

the lion (note, the lion bit) guard states he comes equipped with a lion cloak. I think its pretty clear that he does benefit....whats the point of asking the question if you disagree with everyone who says the same thing.

If you really want the answer, ask a games devloper or hobby specialists (heaven forbid), and try and argue with them when they give you the same answer. Is it really so hard just to accept that he gets the +2 save?

T10
25-07-2005, 15:19
However, no where in the lion cloak rules does it say "only used by white lions", all it states is "it gives the white lions their name".



Oh that is very sweet. I give my Archmage the Lion Guard honour. This nets him the Lion cloak. The Lion cloak gives him the "White Lions" name and thus he qualifies for the improved save!

Ding-dong! The witch is dead!

-T10

Reinnon
25-07-2005, 15:23
Oh that is very sweet. I give my Archmage the Lion Guard honour. This nets him the Lion cloak. The Lion cloak gives him the "White Lions" name and thus he qualifies for the improved save!

Ding-dong! The witch is dead!

-T10

that wasn't really the point i was making, just pointing out the difference between "gives em the name" and "may only be used by"

peteratwar
25-07-2005, 15:55
I cannot see anything preventing a character given the White Lion Cloak from getting the bonus save. One of the main reasons for having it.