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FallenScholar
19-12-2006, 14:20
Is this the wave of the future for the Empire; Massed units of unbreakable flagellengts?

Think on this:
Arch lector with altar
2 priests
1 level I caddy
3 blocks of 20 flagellents
2 units of IC knights on the flanks
2 cannon
rest of the points in handgunners and maybe an archer screen for the frenzied flagellents.

How many of these will we see. Is this a winnable list for the empire now that most of the list was nerfed in the new army book?


Fallen Scholar

Arhalien
19-12-2006, 14:23
How has most of the list been nerfed? cavalry are just the same (except for IC), all the state troops are now cheaper and crossbows are now state troops.

Rikkjourd
19-12-2006, 14:36
At first glance the list you presented is in no way hard to beat. At second glance, I didn't change my opinion.

Also, if most of the list was nerfed... I must be blind. It is not nerfed. Tweaked yes, nerfed no.

I do play empire, and have done so since 5th. I think the new book is ok.

Yade
19-12-2006, 15:14
At first glance the list you presented is in no way hard to beat. At second glance, I didn't change my opinion.




Look again then.

Arch Lector on the chariot. 2 additional dispel dice and up to 4 bound items or spells

2 Battle priests. 2 more dispel dice and 4 more bound spells or items.

1 Battle Wizard, lvl 2 forget the scrolls. 1 more dispel dice and 1 more bound itema dn 2 spells.

In total they have 7 dispel dice and 11 spells or bound items. Unike like mages they have a guaranteed list of spells. Not to mention the priests confer hatred to any unit they are in and they can get to a 2+ save very easy. You have a combat heavy character with lots of kicks.

I have play tested this make up a few times now and my opponents unanimously have decided that the Empire is broken. It is truly irrelevant what else you add to these characters because they are ging to have 4 chances per turn to make units unbreakable or 4 chances per turn to do d6 str5 hits to all units in base contact with them, no saves allowed.

blah, blah, blah... They got a lot better.

FallenScholar
19-12-2006, 15:19
OK, lets see:

Shall we talk about..

White Wolves... worthless now except if you want to be fluffy.

Handgunners...lost extra D6 range.

Griffon Banner.....is now 55 points (you need a BSB now).

Pistoliers.......suck except that they can now get a musician...dont tell me I know 2 shots hitting on 5's.....yippeee!!!! I would rather have 2 attacks hitting on 4's.

Costs of basic infantry went down....unit frontage went up...so much for that bonus. And a good player will know how to avoid detachments.

Helblaster....hmmmm I know have to hit with my shots...with BS 3 or I can add an expensive engineer.

Steam Tank....T6 chariot with a 1+ save....ohhhh....awwwww.....it blows.

And dont lecture me on "I played empire for years.....[Edited by the Inquisition]...so have I"

Fallen Scholar

Yade
19-12-2006, 15:30
I am hoping that flame was not aimed at me. I can see how some old Empire tricks and lists got erfed but, in my opinion, those were the ones that were the weakest to start.

yes the Hellblaster is even more useless than it was before. I personally gave up using one for serious play long ago.

great swords are 10 pts and they are no longer 0-1, this is huge. They don't need a griffin banner because they are stubborn. I'll agree with you that everyone knows how to dodge an attachment so make them archers. A skirmishing detachment that can screen your troops and NO ONE cares if they die!! Better than gnoblars and a good tactical idea.

Flagellants are for flavor only.

Empre knight armies are very feasible now, and scary.

Pistoliers got nerfed a little, yes we will not be running them into combat anymore. However, they hit on 4s all of the time unless they are shooting skirmishers or are being charged.

Liek I said the Empire has changed and some old lists have died away.

Steam tank, newbie toy only.

IcedCrow
19-12-2006, 15:36
Awww looks like we have to adapt to the winds of change. They are hardly nerfed.

Arhalien
19-12-2006, 15:42
I
great swords are 10 pts and they are no longer 0-1, this is huge. They don't need a griffin banner because they are stubborn.

as an elf player this is annoying - cheaper than spearelves, stronger, better armour and stubborn. :(

FallenScholar
19-12-2006, 15:58
Let us not forget that IC knights are now a special choice. Do I take that cannon or a unit of IC knights?


It is not change that bothers me. It is a lack of forthought in army design that has become a more common trend with GW products.


Fallen Scholar

samw
19-12-2006, 16:45
Let us not forget that IC knights are now a special choice. Do I take that cannon or a unit of IC knights?


It is not change that bothers me. It is a lack of forthought in army design that has become a more common trend with GW products.


Fallen Scholar

Oh yes, heaven forfend you should have to make actual choices as to how to fill your special slots. :eek:

IcedCrow
19-12-2006, 17:03
Right. Because when you have Inner Circle knights as core for so long you get SPOILED.

Special and Rares should always be so good you have to make a choice IMO.

loveless
19-12-2006, 17:24
as an elf player this is annoying - cheaper than spearelves, stronger, better armour and stubborn. :(

true...but spearelves are core, so you can have more of them

also, spearelves have better movement and initiative and fight in 3 ranks

unfortunately, you pay for your statistic increases and the extra fighting rank

true, greatswords are still cheaper, but prices of various units change between army books - after all, it'd be dull if everyone had the same thing for the same price

FallenScholar
19-12-2006, 17:34
True; but the last time I checked you could have only one (1) unit of IC knights as core. Two if you took the White Wolves. Now you could have four (4). Sure bring it!!!!! Screw choice!!!!


Fallen Scholar

Heretic Burner
19-12-2006, 17:46
Yup, no question Empire are far stronger in the new book. Unbreakable Empire armies will certainly be a presence no doubt about it. Dirt cheap infantry, if that's your thing, as well.

Did they need such a boost? I'm not sure. They were a solid middle tier army before. A result of the extreme backlash after the O&G gutting? Maybe just another way to shift more models that wouldn't ordinarily sell well under the old edition (ie fanatics). Most likely a combination of all three.

I doubt they'll hang with the Brets and Wood Elves, but I fully expect them to have a bigger presence at tournament scenes overall.

klinktastic
19-12-2006, 17:48
I played a playtest match against my buddy who will be making an empire army. I play OnG and he handled me pretty well. Here was his composition:

Arch Lector on War Alter
Battle Priest w/ doom fire ring
LVL 2 metal mage, scroll or 2
captain, bsb with a magic sword

25 swordmen
detachment of FC
20 great swords
detachment of FC
2 units of 5 knights
2 units of 5 pistoliers
5 outriders
2 unit of 14 flaggies

His army dominated. I mean, I jocked him for position most of the game, but he ended up with a minor victory. His magic was super mean. Most of those bound spells are remains in play. His stuff sticks around very well. Took me 3 combats to wipe a flaggie unit. I did play poorly, but his magic was overwhelming as soon as we began close combat. They have never fail magic missles and its not even worth it roll one dispel dice at those things, because you;ll barely get it and when u don't you just wasted a die. This army is mean and very reliable. I believe he is trying to scrap some points out to add those huntsmen detachments for screening purposes and/or add another unit of greatswords, which when next to the bsb, will never break. If your not making and empire army, you should be.

samw
19-12-2006, 18:03
Very much in the mould of what I was going to do, except I want at least 2 artillery pieces, probably a cannon and a Hellstorm/mortar, so I'll be trading out a couple of things.

Mephistofeles
19-12-2006, 18:48
Uhm, the list you listed does not have 11 bound spells/spells. I has 5, unless you take items, in which case Empire still only has 3-4, of which 1-2 are any good/viable. You seem to have gotten bogged down in mathhammer with that one...

Yade
20-12-2006, 20:20
Uhm, the list you listed does not have 11 bound spells/spells. I has 5, unless you take items, in which case Empire still only has 3-4, of which 1-2 are any good/viable. You seem to have gotten bogged down in mathhammer with that one...

2 prayers for the arch lector and 1 for the chariot as well as giving him a bound item means there are 4 from this character

each priest contributes a prayer and can take another bound item each .eaning 4 more here.

The wizard can cast 2 spells and takea bound item himself.

In the end iti s 11 bound items and spells for the empire player.

Hywel
21-12-2006, 00:32
There's a definite whiff of new army book syndrome in these worrying posts...

I'll not judge till I've had a go myself - the doubters may be correct, I don't know. It's just that experience has taught me these little panics tend to disappear when the next army gets its revamp.

samw
21-12-2006, 00:36
2 prayers for the arch lector and 1 for the chariot as well as giving him a bound item means there are 4 from this character

each priest contributes a prayer and can take another bound item each .eaning 4 more here.

The wizard can cast 2 spells and takea bound item himself.

In the end iti s 11 bound items and spells for the empire player.

But that's 4 bound items. IIRC there's the Doomfire ring (now rather tasty), Orb of thunder (occasionally useful) and (sort of) the casket of sorcery. What's the fourth item?

Grand Warlord
21-12-2006, 01:12
Could be the Silver Horn if you end up running away alot or ... Ring Of Volans (1 Randomly stored spell)


There's a definite whiff of new army book syndrome in these worrying posts...

I'll not judge till I've had a go myself - the doubters may be correct, I don't know. It's just that experience has taught me these little panics tend to disappear when the next army gets its revamp.


I have forever been a Empire Player and to be honest the army really doesnt change that much, atleast I don't think it does ... if I ever expand past 2000 GT army, then ill add some outriders and maybe a steam tank which really isnt so invincible this go thru.

WP are a little bit nicer but ill still take my mages with some dispel scrolls.

on a side note Arch lector on war altar is rather nasty.

Petey
21-12-2006, 04:36
High elf all shooting army could mulch this list, as they are. HE would use flying units and HE heroes on eagles to marchblock and kill siege pieces, while using RBT and archer lines to whittle the knights and flagellants (not to mention charge the AL and kill him). HE defensive magic will put paid to your bound spells (which indeed aren't 11, and not all are useful from turn one).
The archers are good at killing your pistoliers and the like also, even without curse of arrow attraction (which will definitely be taken)

Not saying your lists aren't strong, but they can be beaten. They look well thought out and tough to fight, but other lists (all guns, nobody walks) in your book can be just as strong, if not stronger.