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Daemon king Mad Dog
20-12-2006, 18:23
Who do you think are the bravest soldiers, please say on poll and post why!

I think it's Imperial guard, because they fight anything from chaos cultists to tyranids armed with a rifle and armoured with a shirt.

MrBigMr
20-12-2006, 18:28
"In the Imperial Guard, it takes more courage to retreat than to advance."

SgtKnivek182nd
20-12-2006, 18:30
Imperial Guard

In my opinion theres only one answer to this question a man with a vest and a gun pited against all manners of horror

azimaith
20-12-2006, 18:35
Well tyranids and necrons aren't really capable of "bravery" (though obviously there not going to break and flee under normal circumstances)
I could argue tau, as they're fanatical about their cause, but then one could argue you can't be brave without the choice to run, so with an ethereal maybe not.

By the same coin that would chop space marines right off the "brave" list as they aren't really capable of turning and running, they're programmed not to. (and if they can be brave then so could a necron.)
Orks.. not really. DE, nope, Chaos marines... *maybe* they had the bravery to turn against the Emperor and the Imperium and they aren't programmed anymore.

The Eldar, possibly, they know more than the Imperium on how the galaxy really is, but I have a feeling they'd be more willing to run and leave it than fight to save it (Then again, bravery isn't the same as insanity).

IG.. maybe, I think a good deal of them are just press ganged into standing and fighting. If they run they will be hunted down and killed.

So Chaos. They voluntarily leave the warp and its relative safety to go out and battle, they turned their backs on everything they knew and the man who was thought of as their father to pursue a different path for humans. That would strike me as bravery more than not running because a comissar will blow your head off.

Splagbot
20-12-2006, 18:40
That would strike me as bravery more than not running because a comissar will blow your head off.

That's why some Guard don't run, but a lot stay through bravery.

I would have to say Guard, it takes guts to go to war with a lasgun and a flak jacket, real men wear flak armour, only wimps need a 3+ save.

Daemon king Mad Dog
20-12-2006, 18:43
*checks all the marines are outta earshot*Bah those puffy marines!

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 18:46
Ok, so which fanboy voted Marines?

Daemon king Mad Dog
20-12-2006, 18:47
Marines... dang i wish i had made it a public poll...

harlequin21
20-12-2006, 18:51
Who voted marines??
Definately Guard they go up against everything with a cotton shirt and las gun, no contest

Captain Micha
20-12-2006, 18:57
Imperial Guardsmen. thrown in boot camp. leave boot camp. and given a bullet vest and a flashlight as a weapon.

Rodzaju
20-12-2006, 18:58
Who voted marines??
Definately Guard they go up against everything with a cotton shirt and las gun, no contest

That's not bravery, that's stupidity ;)

The Song of Spears
20-12-2006, 19:12
I say IG too. I just can't imagine not being a super solider and still fighting in this universe.

harlequin21
20-12-2006, 19:13
That's not bravery, that's stupidity ;)

Hah it could be seen that way i guess, but i stand by my point

Yay!!100 posts!!

Gen.Steiner
20-12-2006, 19:18
IG.. maybe, I think a good deal of them are just press ganged into standing and fighting. If they run they will be hunted down and killed.

WRONG!

The vast majority of the Imperial Guard are the elite of the elite - regiments comprised of the top 10% of a planet's defence forces, or its strongest and bravest warriors chosen to fight for the Sky Lord who comes once every year to select the Chosen Braves.

The Guard are religiously inspired fanatical warriors, who stand and fight and die against hopeless odds in defence of humanity. They obey orders without question and without compromise - and the majority of them die. They are the brute force implement of the Imperium, whose Commissars are there to steel them against the horrors that even blind faith will not protect you from. They are not, in the main, press ganged (it's the NAVY that does that), as a) any Governor providing sub-standard troops can expect a visit from the Inquisition (eventually) and certainly the Adeptus Arbites; and b) elite volunteers with high motivation and excellent training aren't gutter scum to be swept up and into space...

The Guard are humans, yes, but fanatical, motivated, trained, soldiers for all that. They put most non-xenos combatants to shame (power armour loonies excepted) and will work miracles in the name of the Golden Throne when their equipment is outclassed and they are outnumbered.

In short, they are all heroes and heroines. Truly the bravest serve!

Rodzaju
20-12-2006, 19:19
Despite my earlier comment, I've had to vote guard by elimination.
Bravery is not being fearless, it's being scared witless but going on anyway.
And whoever said that bravery & stupidity were mutually exclusive?

Diomedes
20-12-2006, 19:19
The bravest soliders are the ones that don't make it back. Guard are the closest we have to actual soldiers who fought and continue to fight in modern conflicts so obviously their the ones to vote for.

The are space marines brave question to me is like is Superman a hero? I mean when you know you super strong, super fast and virtually invulnerable wheres the risk in charging into a burning building?

Suerly a hero or a brave man is someone who risks all for someone else and stands and fights when he knows he will die just to buy some time for his buddies.

When you can bench press a truck, your 8 feet tall and clad in armour that repels all small arms fire, I would imagine you would feel pretty safe.

sigur
20-12-2006, 19:23
This is the weirdest poll in a week that wasn't short on weird/odd polls. Congrats, I guess.:eyebrows:

inq.serge
20-12-2006, 19:25
They are armed with flashlights and armoured with toilet paper.

Ever heard this one?;

A Cannoness, a Blood Angel chaplain and a commissar stands in a space ship, they arguee about who has the bravest warriors,
Cannoness: Come over here sister!
Sister: As you wish.
Cannoness: Jump out of the window of this space ship!
She jumps out without doubt.
Cannoness: whose bravest?
Chaplain: Brother , come over here.
BAbrother:yes?
Chaplain: Jump out of the window!
BAbrother: The black rage is taking me! For Sanguinius! For the Emperor!
BAbrothe runs and jumps out.
Chaplain: Whose bravest now?
Commissar: come here guardsman.
IG: Yes sir!
Commissar: Jump out of the window.
IG. But..., but.., but it's impossible!
Commissar: You see? This is true courage.
Commissar shoots IG.

azimaith
20-12-2006, 19:26
WRONG!

The vast majority of the Imperial Guard are the elite of the elite - regiments comprised of the top 10% of a planet's defence forces, or its strongest and bravest warriors chosen to fight for the Sky Lord who comes once every year to select the Chosen Braves.

I didn't say press ganged into joining because I knew this was the case already. I said press ganged into *standing and fighting* which means they are already on the battlefield and can not run because they'll get gunned down.

Its hard to be a coward and run for your life when that practically guarantees you will die. To be brave you have to have the option of running and getting away, which they don't. Its the same reason tyranids aren't brave because they don't get the option to run away.


As for the rest of the post.. Yeah I expected that from you already.

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 19:26
I say IG too. I just can't imagine not being a super solider and still fighting in this universe.

A lot of Imperial Guard are super soldiers.

Detachment Delta-99 (or was it Dragon-99, for some reason?) from IA 4: Ampilian Project are the elite of the elite, genetically engineered super soldiers, designed to stem the Tyranid tide. Which they did quite admirably (even though they all died). Any Imperial Guardsmen who can jump out of a helicopter into the middle of a Tyranid horde and win gets my vote.

The Emperor
20-12-2006, 19:28
As far as not running because the Commissar will shoot you, that's only true up to a point. When you've got Hormagaunts storming the barricades, some guy with a puffy jacket and a laspistol is hardly as frightening, yet in a lot of cases the Guard hold the line, anyway. That, good sirs, is honest to goodness guts.

Geeze, TWO threads in a row, now, trying to convince me to play Guard. If Dark Angels weren't just around the corner, I probably would go out and start collecting an army. *sigh* I can never find the time or the money to get my Guard army, sadly. :(

Nehcrum
20-12-2006, 19:30
Heh, I am the sole voter of the orks.

Everyone here keeps saying IG, but at least they have numbers, a huge navy and mighty tanks that are backing them up.

They also have their emperor and the space marines to rely on.

The orks, they have even worse armor, guns that are just scrap metal bolted together, or stuff looted from the battlefield.

Yet they run against the enemy in rage, and will fight on even through heavy losses.....


For some reason, most people in here should, for the very same things you have stated in this thread, should be voting that the russian mass infantry units in WWII was the bravest soldiers in that war....

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 19:32
Because they were genetically engineered to do so.

Gen.Steiner
20-12-2006, 19:38
I didn't say press ganged into joining because I knew this was the case already. I said press ganged into *standing and fighting* which means they are already on the battlefield and can not run because they'll get gunned down.

Its hard to be a coward and run for your life when that practically guarantees you will die.

There's always the option of running away.

Why, officers sometimes sanction it (it's called "tactical/strategic withdrawal") and sometimes it's sanctioned by the old tactic of: *BANG* "Oh look the Commissar's dead, run!"

The Guard can run. The few Commissars that are scattered throughout a unit (often one to a regiment!) are there to inspire and drive forwards in the face of unrelenting terror. Yes, they do shoot their own troops to encourage the others, but it's often last resort - and one man with a bolt pistol is nothing against twenty with lasrifles.

If you're a Guardsman, and you run away, you might get away with it. You might not. Sometimes, it's better to run and take the chance of life than it is to stand and die - and sometimes it's better to stand and die.

The rest of the post so sweepingly dismissed by you is entirely accurate, and based on Codex: Imperialis, Codex: Imperial Guard (2nd and both 3rd editions), various background stories e.g. Thirteenth Legion, Fifteen Hours, Inferno!, Warhammer Monthly, Lone Wolves, etc etc.

inq.serge
20-12-2006, 19:40
For some reason, most people in here should, for the very same things you have stated in this thread, should be voting that the russian mass infantry units in WWII was the bravest soldiers in that war....

What? wheren't they?:D

Diomedes
20-12-2006, 19:40
Well to be fair Russian Troops in WWII had some serious guts!

Gen.Steiner
20-12-2006, 19:41
Well to be fair Russian Troops in WWII had some serious guts!

As do most soldiers who see action, in fairness. ;)

Diomedes
20-12-2006, 19:45
As do most soldiers who see action, in fairness. ;)

Never said otherwise ;)

Bregalad
20-12-2006, 19:47
Well difficult to say.
IG is forced by Commissars and ideology.
SM are genetically engineered to feel no fear.
Eldar are fanatics and super-emotional.
Dark Eldar are drugged.
Orks don't know fear.
Necrons have no soul.
Tau prefer not fighting.
Chaos SMs see SMs.
Tyranids are beasts.

Compromise: There are brave (and not so brave) warriors among all races capable of feelings (including the missing Kroot!).

Gearux
20-12-2006, 19:49
IG hands down. They take to battle with the worst armour and crappy weapons, and still go forward.

RampagingRavener
20-12-2006, 19:50
Because 'Imperial Gaurd' is the fashionable vote, I'm going to say Dark Eldar. ;)

If one of them dies on the battlefeild, there's no comforting soulstone to hide in. They get their soul eaten and tortured by Slannesh for all eternity, and if they don't go out and fight to claim souls for themselves, then Slanny ends up slowly draining their essance and claiming them that way. So, even though they might be sadistic killers smashed off their face on drugs and bloodlust, if they didn't go out and fight they'd end up dying anyway. So while the other races might be able to choose not to fight (other than the mindless Tyranids and Necrons) the Dark Eldar don't have that choice and are forced into it.

punkoteloco
20-12-2006, 19:52
Well, this is going a little bit historical. To be in combat, even if you are the better equiped man in history, you have to be brave.
Now, to the game poll. I think guard, because you are not well armed compared to other weapons, you have to know that youll be in combat for a very long period and you have to suffer comissars. And if you are scared with a roach, imagine being surrounded by millions of them and with the same size as you. That my friends is courage. Thats why i always call them when im playing my DH.

punkoteloco

azimaith
20-12-2006, 19:54
Steiner i'm not arguing the IG *aren't* brave. I'm following the OPs poll as *whose* bravest*.

I don't see IG as *the* bravest.

I voted Chaos because they don't need to go out and fight, they choose to even when they're in the safety of the warp.

Furthmore they are willing to turn their backs on the Imperial dogma even though it lead to their persecution and eventual defeat.

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 19:55
Going out to fight when there is no need to is no courage. Its either bloodlust or stupidity.

Sarge
20-12-2006, 19:59
I'd have to say the bravest of them all have to be those Gue'vesa'la who turned away from their Emperor to serve the Tau'va! Who could possibly be braver than a man or woman out numbered 100 to 1 (if not worse), and still toting the flak vest and lasgun they trained with.

Sure they have the support of the Tau Empire and their impressive technology, but against the odds they fight, that's little comfort. The bravest are indeed Gue'la, though Tau themselves have been noted for their bravery time and time again, for just like the Gue'la they are fanatically loyal to their idealology. But don't let their hit and run tactics fool you into thinking they are cowards, for only a fool will stand his ground to die, rather than pull back to fight again.

As Paton once said, "You don't win wars by dying for your country. You win wars by making the other poor bastard die for his country." And as the works of "Art of War" teach, "The masters of old would first put themselves beyound the possiblity of defeat, before waiting for the enemy to offer them the oppurtunity to defeat them."

RampagingRavener
20-12-2006, 19:59
Going out to fight when there is no need to is no courage. Its either bloodlust or stupidity.

Or that they belive so strongly in a cause they willingly put themselves in danger for their beliefs.

azimaith
20-12-2006, 20:00
Going out to fight when there is no need to is no courage. Its either bloodlust or stupidity.
Yeah, I guess all our soldiers in the US military and bloodthristy or stupid because they aren't required to join the military then.

Its not, its showing you have conviction in your beliefs to leave the safety of your home and do something that might kill you.

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 20:02
I am in the military, and take it from me, there is a lot more to joining the army than combat. Your argument is flawed.

Entering combat for no reason is retarded. Its as simple as that.

swordwind
20-12-2006, 20:03
But the chaos we see on the battlefield are there because they want to be there. They arent conscripted by the lord or anything, they actually enjoy killing and maiming loyal Imperial citizens.

e033x
20-12-2006, 20:07
you have forgotten one thing... the most important thing in this place.... the courage in the 41st millenia is controlled of the mighty hand of uncertain determination; the dice!

azimaith
20-12-2006, 20:07
I am in the military, and take it from me, there is a lot more to joining the army than combat. Your argument is flawed.

Entering combat for no reason is retarded. Its as simple as that.
Its not a matter of going into combat. An intelligence specialist in the greenzone can still be hit with a mortar, a translator can still die from an IED.

Fighting is not just about stabbing someone in the face, its about a whole network of people working for their side.

Chaos has conviction in its belief, enough to put itself through hardship and battle for them.

But the chaos we see on the battlefield are there because they want to be there. They arent conscripted by the lord or anything, they actually enjoy killing and maiming loyal Imperial citizens.
Actually chaos marines follow the orders of their Primarch and his lesser warlords. (And the primarch, their god)

As for Imperial Citizens, whats loyalty got to do with it. They're loyal to the enemy.

Gen.Steiner
20-12-2006, 20:09
Well difficult to say.
IG is forced by Commissars and ideology.

You can't be forced by your ideology. It's an idea, a socio-political philosophy. Your average Guardsman is no more forced to fight than a Knight Templar in the 3rd Crusade.


I voted Chaos because they don't need to go out and fight, they choose to even when they're in the safety of the warp.

:rolleyes:

No, they don't need to fight, they just do it for ***** and giggles. Being a frothing bezerker doesn't make you brave, it makes you a frothing bezerker.

The followers of Chaos fight to a) avenge their loss in the Heresy, b) glorify their god(s/ess/es) and c) gain power.

Sure, they're brave, but your average denizen of the Ocularis Terribilis isn't the bravest.

Brave is being a cultist on Cadia. Brave is leaping out of a trench with only a satchel charge and faith and attacking a unit of invading Guardsmen/Space Marines.

But being a denizen of the Eye? You've got even more kewl lewt than a Space Marine - they're not brave, they're just uber. :p

Sarge
20-12-2006, 20:10
But the Gue'vesa'la have more conviction for the beleif in which they fight for, and aren't mindless murderers like chaos either.

azimaith
20-12-2006, 20:13
:rolleyes:

No, they don't need to fight, they just do it for ***** and giggles. Being a frothing bezerker doesn't make you brave, it makes you a frothing bezerker.

Same place as nids/cron's.



The followers of Chaos fight to a) avenge their loss in the Heresy, b) glorify their god(s/ess/es) and c) gain power.

Sure, they're brave, but your average denizen of the Ocularis Terribilis isn't the bravest.

Brave is being a cultist on Cadia. Brave is leaping out of a trench with only a satchel charge and faith and attacking a unit of invading Guardsmen/Space Marines.

This is a better description than mine. I agree here. Leaving the safety of the eye doesn't have much to do with it.



But being a denizen of the Eye? You've got even more kewl lewt than a Space Marine - they're not brave, they're just uber. :p
Yeah I suppose so.


But the Gue'vesa'la have more conviction for the beleif in which they fight for, and aren't mindless murderers like chaos either.
Make assumptions much?

Whether the've more conviction is debatable. You don't risk being eaten by a daemon by joining the tau.

As for mindless murderers, utterly ridiculous. Some people who worship chaos (or the emperor) are murderers. Many are just people who would rather be left alone rather than hunted down and burnt alive by the Inquisition.

Gen.Steiner
20-12-2006, 20:18
But the Gue'vesa'la have more conviction for the beleif in which they fight for

I think not!

Any follower of the Great Powers will hack open their own throat to further the ends of their Master - I defy you to find a filthy Xenos-lover who'd do that for the Greater Good!

Sarge
20-12-2006, 20:20
That's not bravery, that's stupidity.

Have you read any of the recent chaos fluff? Heretics aren't civil, nor do they desire to be hermits, they want blood for the blood god, they want everything to decay around them, they want to enjoy every sick pleasure there is, and they all want to warp and twist reality to contort to their desires.


I think not!

Any follower of the Great Powers will hack open their own throat to further the ends of their Master - I defy you to find a filthy Xenos-lover who'd do that for the Greater Good!

Again, not bravery, that's once again stupidity. Why slit your own throat when you can slit the enemy's throat?

Diomedes
20-12-2006, 20:22
That's not bravery, that's stupidity.

Have you read any of the recent chaos fluff? Heretics aren't civil, nor do they desire to be hermits, they want blood for the blood god, they want everything to decay around them, they want to enjoy every sick pleasure there is, and they all want to warp and twist reality to contort to their desires.

They must be Chaos undivided then! :p

Sarge
20-12-2006, 20:23
Or I could have been refering to each seperate cult in one sentence. Either way that discribes most if not all chaos worshipers.

Gen.Steiner
20-12-2006, 20:23
Have you read any of the recent chaos fluff? Heretics aren't civil, nor do they desire to be hermits, they want blood for the blood god, they want everything to decay around them, they want to enjoy every sick pleasure there is, and they all want to warp and twist reality to contort to their desires.

None of which rules out bravery in action. :)


Again, not bravery, that's once again stupidity. Why slit your own throat when you can slit the enemy's throat?

No, it is bravery. They face death without a qualm. Suicide missions are carried out by extremely brave men and women - they know they're dead, yet go to their doom willingly and without care. I couldn't do that.

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 20:24
Because that makes better stories than wanting to be free of a tyranical rule. :p

Sarge
20-12-2006, 20:26
That's not bravery, that's cowardice, a real warrior will survive no matter the cost to his body or his gear, he will triumph over the enemy and live to watch them rot away into nothing. That is what bravery is, to accept death is not cowardice, but to seek it is.

Gen.Steiner
20-12-2006, 20:30
...to accept death is not cowardice, but to seek it is.

Tell that to the Divine Wind, or all those whose missions meant that they would die...

...or the Dwarven Slayers. ;)

azimaith
20-12-2006, 20:31
That's not bravery, that's cowardice, a real warrior will survive no matter the cost to his body or his gear,

Often times the best way to survive a suicide mission is to turn tail and run away.



he will triumph over the enemy and live to watch them rot away into nothing. That is what bravery is, to accept death is not cowardice, but to seek it is.
Accepting death is fine, and being willing to die is a step farther from accepting death, especially when its to accept death for something greater than yourself.

As for recent chaos fluff, yes I have read it. You'll note that most of it is directed toward CSM, which isn't like Lost and the Damned. There are alot of worshippers of chaos, from rich stupid nobles who have too much free time, to people in the deepest underhives who are just trying to survive any way they can. You paint with a broad brush that is inaccurate.

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 20:33
That's not bravery, that's cowardice, a real warrior will survive no matter the cost to his body or his gear, he will triumph over the enemy and live to watch them rot away into nothing. That is what bravery is, to accept death is not cowardice, but to seek it is.

If by giving your own life, you can save the lives of 2 others, how is it cowardice to do so?

Sarge
20-12-2006, 20:33
I would if I could, because as a wise man once said, "It takes work to learn how to live. Dying's easy." Bravery isn't about taking the easiest path when it suites you, it's about digging your heels in and enduring everything that is thrown at you. That's what bravery is.

Why do you think so many religions disdain suicide?

@azimaith: Or actually comming up with a better plan that will allow you to accomplish the mission without throwing away your life.

@Slaaneshi Slave: Because there is always another way, you just have to be willing to think of it. And who's to say that you aren't more important to acomplishing the mission than they are? If they die, than they die, but if you sacrifice yourself, you can't be sure the mission will succede with or without them. Now can you?

Master Jeridian
20-12-2006, 20:37
I've heard the 'safety of the Eye' bandied around a lot in this thread- an oxymoron if ever I heard one.
Some people have a seriously misconceived view of the Eye as some happy, Disney-esque holiday park, or retirement home for Chaos worshippers.

Even within the Eye Chaos worshippers war against each other from one against one acts of vengeance and power grabbing, to whole wars in the name of Chaos gods.

So a Chaos worshipper leaving the 'safety of the Eye' is a load of rubbish.

I'd have to go with IG as the bravest.

Most other things don't feel fear or bravery as defined by humans- e.g. Nids, Necrons, Orks.
Others have the Superman complex, if your indestructable (or brainwashed to think you are), its not brave to go out and fight- SM's, CSM's, etc.

I'd argue too for Tau- assuming the mind control pheromones are only subtle- then it is still up to the Fire Warrior to keep fighting psychotic super-warriors.

Sarge
20-12-2006, 20:39
Not mind control pheromones, simple relaxation pheromones, the rest is the charisma of the Aun, not his or her biology.

guillimansknight
20-12-2006, 20:40
Who do you think are the bravest soldiers, please say on poll and post why!

I think it's Imperial guard, because they fight anything from chaos cultists to tyranids armed with a rifle and armoured with a shirt.

with nothing but a usless flak jacket, basic training and a lasgun that needs a realy lucky shot to kill somthing


the IG are the bravest in 40K

azimaith
20-12-2006, 20:43
I would if I could, because as a wise man once said, "It takes work to learn how to live. Dying's easy." Bravery isn't about taking the easiest path when it suites you, it's about digging your heels in and enduring everything that is thrown at you. That's what bravery is.

No, its not. Bravery is about putting yourself in the way of danger/hardship to achieve an objective you see as noble. Enduring hardship is part of bravery, but its certainly not the only thing.



Why do you think so many religions disdain suicide?

Because its hard to fill a collection plate when everyones killing themselves to get to heaven first.



@azimaith: Or actually comming up with a better plan that will allow you to accomplish the mission without throwing away your life.

You make it seem as if they're deciding: "Wow I could shoot this guy with a laspistol, or I could strap on some explosives and blow us both up!" I had assumed you didn't think we were talking about pointlessly killing yourself if there was another way. Its about being willing to die *if* there isn't another way rather than giving up and running away.



@Slaaneshi Slave: Because there is always another way, you just have to be willing to think of it.
That is total and utter bull. Sorry man, but thats just not true. Sometimes there is no other way.

A grenade lands in your trench. Two of your buddies are there. Theres .5 seconds on the grenade as it cooks off. What other way is there? Summon up a magical anti-grenade beam that makes it go away? Nope, you either jump on it or you don't. Theres no other way.

Sarge
20-12-2006, 20:49
But putting yourself in the way of danger isn't bravery, it's stupidity, especially if it's to prove a point to yourself, or any one else.

I'll ignore your comment as it was humorous... but just barely.

Hmm, here's an idea, slip the pack off, throw it at the enemy, kill them, and use the laspistol you brought along to kill even more! Wow what a great plan I came up with, they should put me in charge of this army of your's!

Or you could yell "Grenade!" and jump out of the hole with your buddies.

fwacho
20-12-2006, 20:51
eldar gaurdians are the bravest there are... they risk the end of a long life, and loss of their soul should thier spirit stone not be recovered and they are armed with a short range gun to boot. with armor as bad as IG

Kjell
20-12-2006, 20:55
I would actually have voted for the Grey Knight Terminators. Even with a Space Marine's physiology and even with their additional mental conditioning, these guys are hard. Each one has more faith than the average Ecclesiastical congression combined. Also consider that they exclusively face horror given form without having their minds wiped clean afterwards. Yet, they don't budge. Normally I think that the bravery etc of Space Marines is a bit overblown but these guys are the real deal. They're the very best fighting force that humanity has ever mustered, and not just because of their shiny weaponry.

On an unrelated note, today I saw a guy who painted his Grey Knights in a pale pink instead of silver. It looked good, too. Odd, but good.

azimaith
20-12-2006, 21:00
But putting yourself in the way of danger isn't bravery, it's stupidity, especially if it's to prove a point to yourself, or any one else.

By that logic the Gue'la aren't brave. They put themselves in the way of danger. After all, their fellow humans will come hunt them down.



I'll ignore your comment as it was humorous... but just barely.

Theres no need to get snippy.



Hmm, here's an idea, slip the pack off, throw it at the enemy, kill them, and use the laspistol you brought along to kill even more! Wow what a great plan I came up with, they should put me in charge of this army of your's!

You obviously didn't read what I said. Let me break it down for you.

You make it seem as if they're deciding: "Wow I could shoot this guy with a laspistol, or I could strap on some explosives and blow us both up!"
I was pointing out that you were not truthfully representing the decision to by adding a second obviously ineffective choice as a way of fighting.



Or you could yell "Grenade!" and jump out of the hole with your buddies.
You'd all die because it would go off before you were out. Besides the fact your buddies wouldn't be able to react fast enough to jump out, they wouldn't get far enough away to escape being riddled with shrapnel.

Gen.Steiner
20-12-2006, 21:00
But putting yourself in the way of danger isn't bravery, it's stupidity, especially if it's to prove a point to yourself, or any one else.

"For the Greater Good you will take this Pulse Pistol and walk down that road until you're killed."

Is it brave or stupid to obey? Or both? Ever thought that bravery can also be mind-rapingly stupid at the same time? I direct you to the Light Brigade: "C'est magnifique, mais n'est pas la guerre..."


Or you could yell "Grenade!" and jump out of the hole with your buddies.

Whereupon you're killed by machine gun fire. Well done, you've just killed three people instead of yourself. Take a Fail and go to the bottom of Officer Training. :)

xibo
20-12-2006, 21:08
with nothing but a usless flak jacket, basic training and a lasgun that needs a realy lucky shot to kill somthing

do i hear 'just basic training'? Every eight year old cadian conscript can headshoot a human 200 meters away with a hundred percent to-hit-accuracy.

Show me a Space Urine who can do that ( I know there don't exist 8 year old space punks).


By the way the commisar doesn't shoot the guardsmen:


Three commanders are lined up and arguing who has the bravest troops in a hangar. A Blood Angel commander, an Imperial Guard Commander and a Sisters of Battle Commander. The Sisters of Battle orders one of her troops to jump out the air lock. She does so without hesitation. The Blood Angel Comander orders one of his troops to do the same. The Blood Angel roars and runs out the air lock screaming. The Imperial Guard Commander orders one of his own to do the same. The trooper replies "Sir, no Sir!" The Imperial Guard comander turns to to the others and says: "Now THAT is courage."


Whereupon you're killed by machine gun fire. Well done, you've just killed three people instead of yourself. Take a Fail and go to the bottom of Officer Training. :) Nope, you are in CC. And in the fourth edition, frag grenades are dropped rather than thrown :P

Sarge
20-12-2006, 21:09
But they don't seek their own demise, they seek the demise if their enemies and the proliferation of their idealogy. After all, it's the winners who get to make up history.

Eh, a bit of dry humor, few people understand it.

Oh but we all have decisions to make, and those people on suicide missions are willingly going along with it, and there is always another option, you just have to look hard enough.

Obviously you don't now how quick human reactions are budy, because half a second is enough time for me to run 3 meters, or jump 2m. Than I guess I'll have to avenge them then.

Bravery is doing the smartest thing to accomplish the mission, not doing what others tell you because your too stupid to think of something yourself.

The light brigade was a devistating loss for the british forces, not something to sing about, but than again fools make great heroes, because like heroes they are oft to die.

Hmm, if they have a machinegun, then why didn't they advance on your position, and better yet, why did you remain there? I'm sure ten meters to the right or left would be just as fine a fighting place. Especially if you're in a trench.

You guys are talking to a wall here, I don't budge, so if you want to beleive doing the most idiotic things possible is bravery, than go ahead and beleive it, but to quote a wise woman, "The sign of youth is a desire to die for a noble cause. The mark of maturity is the desire to live humbly for a noble cause."

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 21:13
Obviously you don't now how quick human reactions are budy, because half a second is enough time for me to run 3 meters, or jump 2m. Than I guess I'll have to avenge them then.

Ok, so you and two of your friends are in a shell scrape firing at the enemy. its loud, its dark, and its scary. You hear a shout of "GRENADE!"! What is the first thing you think to do? You drop to your belly, since thats what has been ingrained into you throughout your army career.

Ok, lets assume you didn't have that instict. Somebody behind you shouts "GRENADE!", you turn around to find out where it is. Now you're dead.

azimaith
20-12-2006, 21:16
Obviously you don't now how quick human reactions are budy, because half a second is enough time for me to run 3 meters, or jump 2m. Than I guess I'll have to avenge them then.
The lethal radius of a modern hand grenade is 5m, its casualty radius is 15m, which means if your not hit somewhere vital (besides being too close) your going to bleed out in no mans land. Thats all assuming you can actually jump out of the hole, possibly while being crouched or even prone and then jump out, up hill, and run away while exposing the largest portion of your body to the grenade blast.



Bravery is doing the smartest thing to accomplish the mission, not doing what others tell you because your too stupid to think of something yourself.

So lets say some enemy soldiers have taken haven in a civillian village, forcing the civillians to keep quiet about them. They're still in uniform. The smartest way to kill them would be to firebomb the village, then you don't risk getting shot when you enter to clear house to house. Its funny how firebombing civillians to get at a couple soldiers doesn't scale high on most peoples bravery charts.


Hmm, if they have a machinegun, then why didn't they advance on your position,

Because they'd be advancing into their own machine gun fire maybe? They'd already have to be within about 35 meters to throw the grenade into your hole already.



and better yet, why did you remain there? I'm sure ten meters to the right or left would be just as fine a fighting place. Especially if you're in a trench.
Because its not a trench, its a hole and to know where a grenade is going to land before its thrown would require magical powers of premonition. And why remain there, well because your pinned down by machine gun fire, duh.
Your really scraping the bottom now Sarge.

Sarge
20-12-2006, 21:16
The scenario mentioned was a hole, or dug out. But dropping to your belly protects vital organs and makes you a smaller target. Sure you stand a chance of getting hit by shrappenel, but with a flak vest, helmet, and hopefully some other protective devices, you'll survive. Why do you think we invented flak vests for? To catch bullets? Not likely. It's to protect your vital organs from shrappenel.

I think I'll take my chances, and let you jump on the grenade. Hope it's a dud, will make a funny story for the folks back home.

Diomedes
20-12-2006, 21:17
Yeah cause loads of Advancing on trenches went on in WWI and none of those attacks ever failed or resulted in heavy casualties...

Better get those VC's back from the families of the soldiers who jumped on grenades to save the others in their trenches too...

There is not always another way, bravery is putting yourself in harms way to help others, running off and letting them die and then avenging them later isn't bravery.

By your logic most of the Victoria Crosses that were given out should be taken back, giving your life to save someone elses is the biggest scarifice anyone can make and it takes guts to put someone elses life before yours.

Sarge
20-12-2006, 21:18
Exactly, we have a planet full of fools

azimaith
20-12-2006, 21:20
The scenario mentioned was a hole,
or dug out. But dropping to your belly protects vital organs and makes you a smaller target.

Not going to make a big difference if your too close.



Sure you stand a chance of getting hit by shrappenel, but with a flak vest, helmet, and hopefully some other protective devices, you'll survive. Why do you think we invented flak vests for? To catch bullets? Not likely. It's to protect your vital organs from shrappenel.

When you drop for a grenade you cover the back of your neck and put your feet toward the explosives. In a hole hole your likely to be within the grenades lethal radius and just die.



I think I'll take my chances, and let you jump on the grenade. Hope it's a dud, will make a funny story for the folks back home.
But its not a dud, because its a hypothetical situation I made up to show how completely ridiculous your statement was and I think everyone can see that.

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 21:20
Oh but we all have decisions to make, and those people on suicide missions are willingly going along with it, and there is always another option, you just have to look hard enough.

Lets look at a few suicide missions.

1) Your section is tasked with infiltrating an strong point and blowing up the ammo dump, which will save the lives of dozens of your friends in the long run.

2) Your platoon is tasked to assault enemy defences at point A, to draw the rest of the enemy to you, so the real attack can go ahead more or less undefended. You probably have a 50/50 chance of making it out alive.

3) You are an SAS soldier in Bagdad, setting markers for smart bombs (you don't think those pinpoint bombs work by themselves, do you?). If you succeed many civilian lives will be saved, if you don't, well both you and the civilians die.

Are any of those foolish? Would you be a coward for undertaking one of those, knowing you are likely to die?

bertcom1
20-12-2006, 21:20
Bravery can require self sacrifice.

Non-combat situation, but what about Captain Oates on the Polar Expedition?

"I am just going outside, I may be some time..."?

xibo
20-12-2006, 21:21
Obviously you don't now how quick human reactions are budy, because half a second is enough time for me to run 3 meters, or jump 2m. Than I guess I'll have to avenge them then.
I'm pretty sure I can run more than 3m/s, and I'm even more sure that i can jump at the same speed than i can run, if not faster...


Bravery is doing the smartest thing to accomplish the mission, not doing what others tell you because your too stupid to think of something yourself.
And shoot your last missile to kill 5 troopers in a building... to see a tank approach a minute after that... even as your officer told you not to launch the last missle?
Not obeying orders is called heresy in the 41st millenium, and you are burned for that.


Hmm, if they have a machinegun, then why didn't they advance on your position, and better yet, why did you remain there? I'm sure ten meters to the right or left would be just as fine a fighting place. Especially if you're in a trench.
If you have a machine gun in M2 you simply shoot appart/through anything he is using as cover and him afterwards... and in M40 every basic chaos cultist can he hiding a machinegun under his bed, so theres no point of a machine gun being something to be watching out for... you can expect some to appear.

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 21:23
The scenario mentioned was a hole, or dug out.

Thats what a Shell Scrape is. A hole dug for sleeping and fighting in.

Lostanddamned
20-12-2006, 21:25
No. We have a planet full of average people.

by definition - if you are smart enough to weigh up a situation in half a second, there are 2/3 other people who will panic, stare into space or plain old not hear you yell.

Bravery is both the guy who turns round and says "enough of this" or the guy who keeps quiet because more will die if he shouts about something.

I my opinion bravery is found in all forces (barring nids and crons), as there have been plenty of fluff examples of selfless sacrifice from marines.

Sarge
20-12-2006, 21:29
You guys repeat yourselves way too much, and still expect me to come around to your view, that's the funniest part. You can go ahead and beleive what trivle you will, I'll beleive what keeps me and my family alive.

Later Kinder!

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 21:30
People who are willing to jump on grenades for their friends is what keeps you and your family alive. I've known people like you. I called them coward too.

Diomedes
20-12-2006, 21:31
Unless someone says "its your family or you" in which case bye bye family cause your life is more important...

azimaith
20-12-2006, 21:33
Unless someone says "its your family or you" in which case bye bye family cause your life is more important...
Well I can agree there. I certainly wouldn't want to be his family in that trench.

Gen.Steiner
20-12-2006, 21:36
do i hear 'just basic training'? Every eight year old cadian conscript can headshoot a human 200 meters away with a hundred percent to-hit-accuracy.

Well, that's not true. Where'd you get that from? :confused:


You guys are talking to a wall here, I don't budge

Then you're remarkably stupid. Enjoy your day. :)

Aurellis
20-12-2006, 21:37
It's undoubtedly got to be the Imperial Guard, unless you count Commisar Cain of the Valhallan 597th! :chrome:

(PS: read the Ciaphas Cain series, theyre brilliant!)

Diomedes
20-12-2006, 21:38
Well I can agree there. I certainly wouldn't want to be his family in that trench.

Apparently as long as he avenges them later hes still brave so its all good! :D

Stormbringer
20-12-2006, 21:38
There is not always another way, bravery is putting yourself in harms way to help others, running off and letting them die and then avenging them later isn't bravery.

You couldn't be more right Diomedes.

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 21:40
Alright, alright, I think its time we stopped trashing him now. Its his right to believe whatever he wants, and we're ruining, or probably already have ruined a perfectly good thread.

bertcom1
20-12-2006, 21:42
By your logic most of the Victoria Crosses that were given out should be taken back, giving your life to save someone elses is the biggest scarifice anyone can make and it takes guts to put someone elses life before yours.


Exactly, we have a planet full of fools

Sarge, you just implied that the winners of the Victoria Cross were fools. As someone who is related to a winner of the VC in the First World War, I find this suggestion not particularly amusing.

Especially because, if you remember, in this thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58906), you flew off the handle (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1116820&postcount=32), because someone's opinion apparently annoyed you because you have many relatives in the military (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1116842&postcount=34).

Now, your many relatives are likely to be trained to do much of the sort of thing mentioned here if the situation warranted it, so that means that by your reasoning, your relatives would be fools.

Now you got angry and threatened people because of their opinions, yet you seem to be holding similar ones now. You seem inconsistent at best and hypocritical at worst. Perhaps you should take a break for 10 minutes and have some fresh air or water or something.

Gen.Steiner
20-12-2006, 21:47
It's undoubtedly got to be the Imperial Guard, unless you count Commisar Cain of the Valhallan 597th! :chrome:

:eek: What are you implying about Commissar Ciaphas Cain, Hero of the Imperium and Saviour of lots of people!? Are you casting slander and aspersions upon his impeccable and unblemished record of heroism, bravery, and general all-round superbness?!

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 21:49
Never say anything bad about Imperial Guard when Colonel Steiner is around. :p

Gen.Steiner
20-12-2006, 21:52
Never say anything bad about Imperial Guard when Colonel Steiner is around. :p

That's General Steiner to you, heretic! :chrome:

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 21:54
Colonel is better, they are generally only 2IC of a bde, whereas General actually has to do work. :p

Diomedes
20-12-2006, 21:56
Alright, alright, I think its time we stopped trashing him now. Its his right to believe whatever he wants, and we're ruining, or probably already have ruined a perfectly good thread.

Sorry about that, sometimes I just have my bitchy head on :D

Back to the topic, I still haven't heard too many decent arguments that Guard arn't the bravest.

Personaly if I was confronted by a 10 foot tall slavering six legged monster with Talons bigger than me I would probably take my chances with the Comissar and leg it!

Takes some guts to shine your tuned up flashlight at it and stand your ground!

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 22:00
Better than that, you're in a helicopter (whatever they are called in 40k), see that 10 foot tall slavering six legged monster with Talons bigger than yourself on the ground below you, and you jump out of the Helicopter to have at it.

Thats balls for you! :p

Baneboss
20-12-2006, 22:05
I couldnt decide beetwen SM and IG. I have finally voted IG because theyre not superhuman guys but normal guys that have to fight all those really bad guys.

Gen.Steiner
20-12-2006, 22:06
Colonel is better, they are generally only 2IC of a bde, whereas General actually has to do work. :p

Work? That's what the NCOs are for - Sergeant-Major, have that man shot!
"Sah! Sergeant - have that man shot!"
"Sarge! Corporal - have that man shot!"
"Sarge! Lance - have that man shot!"
"Corp! Private First Class - shoot that man!"
"Yes Lance..."
*ZOT*

Aurellis
20-12-2006, 22:08
:eek: What are you implying about Commissar Ciaphas Cain, Hero of the Imperium and Saviour of lots of people!? Are you casting slander and aspersions upon his impeccable and unblemished record of heroism, bravery, and general all-round superbness?!


Ofcourse i am! :p I didn't mention he is in my opininon the greatest hero of the imperial gaurd and is a true legend! (whether rightfully so or not, just who's to say ;) )

Gen.Steiner
20-12-2006, 22:12
Ofcourse i am! :p I didn't mention he is in my opininon the greatest hero of the imperial gaurd and is a true legend!

Oh, well in that case I'll just have you shot, rather than tortured, hung, drawn, quartered, shot and then burnt. Can't say fairer than that, can you? :p

EDIT:

Correction!

As it is far better to die in the service of the Throne than be shot out of hand, and your crime wasn't that heinous, how does 15 years in the penal legions sound? :D

Vaktathi
20-12-2006, 22:14
In terms of Fluff, there are many answers, the Space Marines will face any threat no matter the odds, and thus, are very brave. the Imperial Guard will also face any threat, with a flashlight and a t-shirt, and thus are also very brave.

Same can be said of many armies, Ork's are brave to the point of foolhardiness.

But personally, I'm going to go with Guard, as many other "brave" armies may not actually know fear, or will feel less of it or have more faith in their equipment, than the Guard will, and conquering Fear is greater than conquering death.

Diomedes
20-12-2006, 22:17
I think if you use our definition of a brave act then all are capable of bravery but when you think about whats behind it i.e. Orks knowing no fear and Space Marines having power armour and super strength then it comes down to the rank and file average joe types who have to rely on inferior equipment and a lot of blood, sweat and tears to get the job done.

Bregalad
20-12-2006, 22:25
Here two new answers to the original question:
1.) The Solitaire (Eldar Harlequin): He knows his soul will be tortured and eaten by Slaanesh but fights anyway without much support or armour.
2.) The standard trooper (not sergeant) with the highest unmodified LD. Anyone higher than Dire Avengers LD 9?

@Sarge: You have my support. Go on!

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 22:27
Dire Avengers are not standard troopers, they are the Eldar equivilent of Space Marines. Highly trained warriors who do nothing but fight. For this cycle at least. :p They simply are not genetically modified.

Bregalad
20-12-2006, 22:29
Look into the new Codex (or the old one). They ARE standard choice, and even fluff puts them into the standard warrior slot. Space Marines are also a standard choice to remind you. Grey Knights e.g. have LD 8.

BTW: Only an Exarch does nothing but fight, all other Eldar soldiers do not get lost on the "war path". Just read the background of Eldar, before making such statements.

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 22:31
The fluff puts them as elite aspect warriors.

Gen.Steiner
20-12-2006, 22:32
Look into the new Codex (or the old one). They ARE standard choice, and even fluff puts them into the standard warrior slot. Space Marines are also a standard choice to remind you. Grey Knights e.g. have LD 8.

Surely the bravest unit is the one with the lowest Ld which fights without, say, Ork Slavers...? :angel:

Bravery is about conquering your fear, not completely ignoring it (or being unaware of it... :rolleyes:), after all.

MrBigMr
20-12-2006, 22:42
Low Ld. doesn't just mean that the unit has a weak moral. I remember some codex or something having some low Ld. explained that the unit has low coordination and doesn't realy know what to do, aka. running around like idiots.
Orks fear nothing, so they realy can't get scared and run away. But as a rowdy mob of crazy heads, there's very little control over their actions and they tend to be harder to oder around.

xibo
20-12-2006, 22:56
how comes more people believe necrons to be braver than dark eldar? DE are brave. at least in their own point of view... and crons are mindless o_O

Zanzibarthefirst
20-12-2006, 23:09
id say imperial guard since as humans, they dont have the benefit of genetically modifiered bodies like marines and so have to rely on their own corage to ge them through a battle

slasher
20-12-2006, 23:09
The medic who under fire carriers out life saving procedures on injured people, (civis and soldiers).

Slaaneshi Slave
20-12-2006, 23:10
Yes, Sister Hospitalis! :p

bertcom1
20-12-2006, 23:20
The bravest soldiers would be the ones that have seen or are otherwise aware of the true horrors of the galaxy and are still able to fight.

So, Imperial Guard Veterans would be braver than regular Guardsmen, as the veterans have seen things as they really are, not just theory and training, and they are still able to fight on, with pretty much the same equipment.

Similarly, Eldar are also brave. Eldar know that their presence on that battlefield is necessary, that they may be determining the fate of many, many more, and yet they are able to fight, and fight well.

There are other examples.

MrBigMr
20-12-2006, 23:35
and crons are mindless o_O
Not totaly. Their minds have been dulled so that only thing that remains is their deep down hatred of life. That's why they're not Fearless, but Ld. 10. They are able to co-ordinate their operations and use strategies, although they might not look like so from our viewpoint.
Sometimes they even seem to remember their past. Flashbacks of their lives.

Splagbot
20-12-2006, 23:49
Surely the bravest unit is the one with the lowest Ld which fights without, say, Ork Slavers...? :angel:

Bravery is about conquering your fear, not completely ignoring it (or being unaware of it... :rolleyes:), after all.

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

swordwind
20-12-2006, 23:52
Bravery is being scared to death, but saddling up anyway
- John Wayne

Messiah
20-12-2006, 23:53
Eldar, they know what they are up against..

Tenchijin
21-12-2006, 02:07
The kroot mercs that my eldar mercilessly throw at my enemies to die for the eldar cause, they are pretty brave. And since most of them die anyways we usually dont have to give them anything in exchange :)

Laughingmonk
21-12-2006, 02:32
I say warp spiders (eldar) FTW:p
For one they're eldar, they're heightened senses allow them to percieve war at a much higher level, and they KNOW when all of their friends are dying. Nevertheless, they manage to maintain a high level of discipline and focus when ***** hits the fan. Maybe not as good as space marines, but pretty good for a non-dedicating-his-entire-life-to-war person (or eldar, or whatever)

They get real up close and personal with those Death Spinners.

They use warp jump generators, whch are almost as likely to kill you (or far worse....) as your enemy is. I can't even imagine how warp spider shrines even recruit. That has to be an eldar with some extreme stones in his pants. Either that, or surfer-dude eldar. (Man, you need to chill bro, the warp is like, so awesome. Lets go ride the warp waves! Duuuuuude...! Uh oh here comes a big one... cheese and rice! Enrith wiped out! Radical!)

They go to battle with full knowledge that they could lose their souls every conflict, all in the name of victory, pushing themselves beyond all imagination just to give their army victory. I'd say that's pretty brave.

Tanith Ghost
21-12-2006, 03:38
The IG. The marines might be superhumans with a deathwish and the ability to not get it even against the most suicidal odds, but the IG take on all comers with a flashlight and t-shirt. And actualy WIN.

Telling that smarmy tau negotiator to go stick it where the sun don't shine
even with a few hundred pulse rifles pointed at you takes courage.
Running right at them and taking a boatload of the xeno scum with you
also takes courage. *moment of reverent silence for the Vostroyans under Col. Toshenko, and praisree to the Emperor their sacrifice was not in vain*

FraustyTheSnowman
21-12-2006, 04:26
Not sure if anyone made this point or not, after I saw the real world militaries getting brought up I lost my ability to give a **** what any of you were saying...

I voted dark eldar, cuz anyone willing to go out on the battlefield looking that redicules is very very brave. Like walking into a clan rally with a pink shirt that sais "vote black".

Asi the Red
21-12-2006, 05:26
Hey ya'.

I voted DE. Everyone else but Eldar only risk their lives on the battlefield, Eldar and their dark cousins risk their lives and souls, and (to my knowledge) the DE do it without the hope that their brothers will pick up their soulstone before they leave.

Arch-Traitor Horus
21-12-2006, 05:36
Well to be fair Russian Troops in WWII had some serious guts!

WWI Australians would give them a run for there money any day.
even in WWII they had some guts eg; the 18 year old militia battalion that held off a couple thou japs on the kokoda track

nanktank
21-12-2006, 05:45
In terms of bravery Id have to say guard

AngryAngel
21-12-2006, 06:05
Say what ya will and downsize it all ya want. I voted marines.

First to even be a marine you have to have proved yourself beyond shadow of doubt before your even picked to start training as a marine. Easily the new recruit of for a space marine has already proven himself in the guard or something very similar.

You accept becoming a marine, knowing there is no surrender, no retirement, and no life outside training till you ache and dieing alone in the cold darkness. Most times very outmanned and even out gunned. You have the power armor and the bolter however each man has earned in blood and individual pain the right to have those.

Does it take more bravery to fight for your life and family ? Or does it take more bravery to say goodbye to that life and family forever, only to die to protect it ? Many guard units do just that as well. I would say they are both very brave..but as not many gave the marines much love I'll do it.

Splagbot
21-12-2006, 06:34
Well Space Marines are rcruited at an early age so don't really have much choice (I'm sure most would choose it anyhow), a Space Marine fights because fear is alien to him, courage is a word as alien to them as the word fear.

bram kuijpers
21-12-2006, 07:34
the imperial guard are the most bravest soldiers cause they are human

Greater_Good11
21-12-2006, 11:38
"In the Imperial Guard, it takes more courage to retreat than to advance."

Yeah, cause the Comissar will shoot you in the face when you fall back!

legio mortis
21-12-2006, 11:54
Yeah, cause the Comissar will shoot you in the face when you fall back!
No, they will shoot you if your run away. That's different from falling back. I'm sure they don't have problems with tactical withdrawls.

bram kuijpers
21-12-2006, 12:21
Yeah, cause the Comissar will shoot you in the face when you fall back!


not in my army my commissars are retired

MrBigMr
21-12-2006, 12:34
No, they will shoot you if your run away. That's different from falling back. I'm sure they don't have problems with tactical withdrawls.
Well, I remember one documentary. A Soviet tank batallion (or somtehing) was surrounded by Finnish troops during WW2. The commander of the force, a captain, was planning to break out and regroup behind own lines. A commissar heard him and told him that he was a coward. The captain replied that he was in comman there. The commissar shot him.
Out of the 400 soldiers only 19 survived.

bram kuijpers
21-12-2006, 12:41
wel thats sovjets tyle and no 40k lets not go that way

elmak the fallen angel
21-12-2006, 12:58
IG get my vote as who can u get whos braver when u r runnin into a hellstorm of bullets and shrapnell armed with the most rubbish weapons and armour since the orcs?
how much braver can u get?

MrBigMr
21-12-2006, 13:21
wel thats sovjets tyle and no 40k lets not go that way
Ok, lets make a 40K reference.
I remember one story at GW forum about funny things that happened in game. The tellers army was reduced to his commander and a commissar. He wanted to do his last stand by attacking the enemy daemon prince or something. He needed to take an Ld. test for it. He failed, the commissar executed the commander for failing his Ld. test and charged the daemon prince alone.

And in the Necrond Codex there was a story about a guy who hid in some bunker to escape a Necron attack, which destroyed everyone else. The guy was found guilty and sentenced to death by the court-martial for abandoning his post during combat.

Wraithbored
21-12-2006, 13:27
I have to say Orks, they really go up against everything. Secondly I'd have to vote IG. And thirdly Eldar. I mean you're a dieing race and yet go out to battle. Sacrifice yourself so more of your race can survive.

SwordsofChaos
21-12-2006, 13:53
I had to say Tyranids actually. I don´t think humans can even imagine the horrors this race must have faced.
I mean, it could have been to hundreds of galaxies. Just look at whats in this galaxy! Imagine a much larger galaxy!
The Tyranids might not individually know fear when they are in large groups, but that it because of the psychic influence of the Hive mind.
The Tyranids could have been fighting things that not even the current C´tan could have matched in power and prevailed for all we know. The Tyranids has stood against the horrors of a universe and won, and if that isn´t bravery I don´t know what is.

Arhalien
21-12-2006, 14:00
For me bravery is the ability to face up to your fears. As far as I;m aware, marines don't really feel fear, so it can;lt be them. i;d have to go with guard, simply because they go into battle wearing only a flak-jacket and a terrible weapon, knowing full-well that he will probably be eaten by some strange alien monster.

WarWolf
21-12-2006, 14:12
Last year I get myself a copy of "Lone Wolves", cos of Wolfs naturally.
But in time I finish reading this stuff it completely changed my mind about 40K world.
I was more attract to valhallan warriors than space wolfs.

Space marines are just made for battle, for fight, for dying.
I think they are not aware of fear the way that regular humans are.
On the oder side Imperial Guards do feel fear, do think about dying all the time,
but are still capable to confront such opponents (with some commissar help ;) ) like Tyrants are, or Orks, or even Chaos followers of any kind.

So I vote Imperial Guard (valhallan ice warriors).

bob syko
21-12-2006, 14:21
I voted orks. Not really brave but I always vote orks if the option is there.

vampires are cool!
21-12-2006, 14:22
the guard; they just have nothing going for them! most will never see their homes again but they fight on with the ludicrus hope that they will. they got nothing they can call super powered; no gene enhancements, no awsome mutant/daemonic abilities, just a lasgun and some balls

mistformsquirrel
21-12-2006, 14:25
This is a toughy...

Bravest imho are the normal humans who have dared to resist the Imperium, and didn't succumb to Chaos either.

Sure, they're very few and very far between, and very often their worlds are razed - the Krieg for instance being subjected to "500 years of atomic purging" - nevertheless, anyone who resists the Imperium purely out of principle, with no "Chaos Gods" or Xenos backing them - those people are brave.

It's one thing to go to war with an empire behind you - another entirely to stand on your own. Imagine the IG - minus the huge forgeworlds, occassional Space Marine backup, or the ability to call upon almost limitless support as the Departmento Munitorium escalates the conflict pulling in more and more and more troops.

Its another to know that your world is your home, and you don't want anyone, no matter how big, to step in and tell you how things are.

As for the debate about facing death, bravery, and stupidity: Here's how I see it -

While you must be willing to die if necessary - you must also be willing to live. If death comes, so be it, but you won't just lay down and die - you'll fight until your blood is spilled in the streets and your fingers go cold. There's a difference between making peace with death, and being stupid about it - to make peace with it is just to acknowledge "I may day, and if so, I lived well, so I will die well." whereas to be stupid about it is actively seeking death.

Anyyyyyway <X_X> I know that's not on the poll, but I had to put in my 2 cents!

Arhalien
21-12-2006, 14:26
just a lasgun and some balls

And with the threat of the inquistion and the comissar hanging over them they may not even be sure of having those much longer.

Champion of Biel-Tan
21-12-2006, 14:29
the imperial guard are the most bravest soldiers cause they are human

Wrong argument, Eldar Feel emotions far extremer than Humans do as a result it takes far more training to not run away in fear in a battle.

Ianos
21-12-2006, 14:45
Voted Eldar and no matter what would i vote imperial guard. Yes the guardsmen wear light armour and their main gun is not so heavy but hey, most of them are very likely not to even see the enemy, bassies and ordnance along with long range guns doing all the work.

Lets see that guardsman having to come face to face with a chaos warrior in order to win. Imagine practically the same guy with almost the same weapon with a little higher strength up close and personal. Now imagine him having lived hundreds of years, creating art and studying arts and war and having a consience 10 times that of a man. Now imagine how he feels when he knows he will sacrifice himself and all that he knows and feels and is on a one shot run on the enemy, an enemy that will mutilate him if he fails... Thats an eldar guardian people the bravest, sane, drug free being in the 40k universe.


P.S. 90% of the Eldar units have 12" guns and wear medium armour at best, add to that the fact that their weapons are specialized and that they are becoming extinct and we have the definition of bravery!

hiveminion
21-12-2006, 14:48
I voted Imperial Guard. Though not every guardsman is a courageous warrior, you have to keep in mind they are weak human beings, with ancient, meagre equipment. Though they often go to war with millions of others, fluff is full of instances were a small group of Guard fight against unsurmountable odds, doesn't matter whether they triumph.

'Nids and Necrons can be ignored. They know no fear, and on the rare occasions they do feel it, they immediately succumb to it.

Orks are barbaric creatures that love to fight. I find it stupid that, when the odds are really against them, they sometimes break and flee. If an Ork spots a Bloodthirster making micepie out of his companions, he will likely turn tail and flee rather than duke it out.

Marines are brave, but in an unnatural way. To be a Marine you must be courageous by default, otherwise you would never have made it to the rank of battle-brother. They have superb training and equipment, and though they often fight more challenging battles then Guard, they were designed to do just that and win. They are supposed to be brave, and since they sometimes fail to be fearless, they are not THE most courageous soldiers in my opinion.

Eldar/Dark Eldar have gods, and knowledge, and immortality. Those who choose to be a warrior do so knowing they will eventually die. The only Eldar that could be seen as very brave are the civilians pressed into service (I believe these are the Guardians?), but it does not compare to the IG.

Chaos Marines have the power of the Chaos gods behind them.
Tau have their entire race behind them.

IG have no one behind them. They're just a part of a fighting force that has no moral support but their faith in the Emperor and a grim Commissar with a pistol standing behind them. They are viewed as being expendable and they know it. Yet they still fight against every abomination in the galaxy. Sometimes they flee, but when they don't, they are truly the bravest soldiers in the universe, overcoming their many fears on their own strength.

Kymar
21-12-2006, 14:52
regardless of the gaming arguments given and fluff ideas, I voted Imperial Guard because they are just normal human beings like you or I and they have gone to war.

Every other army allows us to pretend there is something "special" or "different" that sets them above the average person and makes them heroic. The Imperial Guard may have hero's but they are still just men.

PS- I usually play Eldar, I like to suspend my disbelief and pretend I'm special. :D

azimaith
22-12-2006, 03:28
I voted Imperial Guard. Though not every guardsman is a courageous warrior, you have to keep in mind they are weak human beings, with ancient, meagre equipment. Though they often go to war with millions of others, fluff is full of instances were a small group of Guard fight against unsurmountable odds, doesn't matter whether they triumph.

One could argue fighting because you have no other option isn't really brave. I'd argue that to be brave you have to fight when there is another option that wasn't just dying.



'Nids and Necrons can be ignored. They know no fear, and on the rare occasions they do feel it, they immediately succumb to it.

Not quite right on fluff basis but all the same, they don't feel fear and they're just moved along by being mostly mindless.



Orks are barbaric creatures that love to fight. I find it stupid that, when the odds are really against them, they sometimes break and flee. If an Ork spots a Bloodthirster making micepie out of his companions, he will likely turn tail and flee rather than duke it out.

Well its because orks are really brave. They only want to fight when they've got the numbers behind them. Thats just how they are, orkz are the playground bullies, they won't stand up when they're outnumbered by equal opponents.



Marines are brave, but in an unnatural way. To be a Marine you must be courageous by default, otherwise you would never have made it to the rank of battle-brother. They have superb training and equipment, and though they often fight more challenging battles then Guard, they were designed to do just that and win. They are supposed to be brave, and since they sometimes fail to be fearless, they are not THE most courageous soldiers in my opinion.

Marines are fearless. Its the reason they get their And they shall know no fear rule. When a marine retreats its not because hes scared, its because its tactically advantageous. Its why they never ever get run down in combat and why they regroup automatically. They've basically had the fear programmed out of them in becoming marines, thus they fit in right with nids and necrons.



Eldar/Dark Eldar have gods, and knowledge, and immortality. Those who choose to be a warrior do so knowing they will eventually die. The only Eldar that could be seen as very brave are the civilians pressed into service (I believe these are the Guardians?), but it does not compare to the IG.

This doesn't really make sense. The eldar become warriors to avoid the grasp of Slannesh. And Eldar certainly aren't immortal, not even their farseers. Non-dark eldar who fight could be seen as brave as they fight even though they run the risk of being consumed by slannesh should their soulstone be destroyed. Their foresight gives them even greater bravery because they can understand the full consequence of all their actions. A man who runs into a burning building to save a baby may be brave, but a man who runs into a burning building to save a baby who *knows* he will die but the baby will survive is even braver.



Chaos Marines have the power of the Chaos gods behind them.
Tau have their entire race behind them.

Every race has some power behind them. The IG for example have the power of ridiculous numbers of their fellows behind them plus the emperor. It doesn't restrain them from being brave. I'd say a cultist nestled in the heart of the imperium is very brave.



IG have no one behind them.

Except a billion other men, tanks, naval craft, and the emperor of course. :eyebrows:



They're just a part of a fighting force that has no moral support but their faith in the Emperor and a grim Commissar with a pistol standing behind them. They are viewed as being expendable and they know it. Yet they still fight against every abomination in the galaxy. Sometimes they flee, but when they don't, they are truly the bravest soldiers in the universe, overcoming their many fears on their own strength.
I'd disagree on many points here. IG are brave but not really "bravest".

ss_cherubael
22-12-2006, 03:38
The Imperial Guard. It takes more than mere bravery to go up against the foulness of the galaxy armed with a flashlight and wearing cardboard armour.

Goq Gar
22-12-2006, 03:57
Um, maybe you've all forgotten, but:

As long as theres 12 or more orks in a squad, they dont even take a leadership test, for anything. This is because their bravado is pushing them on without a care in the world.

Ork tactics are all based around mindless charges at the enemy with no thought for self preservation.

ALL THEY WANT TO DO IS FIGHT.

Sergeant Tanthius
22-12-2006, 05:31
Lets see...:

Space Marines: "Sorry, my responses are limited. You must ask the right question...":chrome:
Tyranids: Roaarrrr!
Necrons: *aims gauss flayer*:skull:
Orks: "Feer? Whuhs dat?"
Tau: "Tactical retreat! Tactical retreat!"
Eldar: "We must preserve what is left of our race...Run for the Webway!"
Dark Eldar: "Umm...Juicy slaves...Ah crud! There comes a guy with a knife! Run!"
Chaos: "Muh, muh, muhahahaha!":skull:
Imperial Guard: "Ummm...I have one commisar with a las pistol behind me, a Bloodthirster with a giant-Emperor-cursed axe in front, what should I do...CHARGE!!!":p

Vandur Last
22-12-2006, 05:47
Definitely Eldar.
The enemy outnumbers them, they cant recover from their losses and even if they survive due to thier superior technology they KNOW that the endless swarm of death, danger and tragedy will eventually wipe out thier race.

Shadowheart
22-12-2006, 10:44
Hey, a poll that produces a conclusive answer.
I'm going with the Guard too. They're all skilled, trained, experienced, well-equipped soldiers, better than most of the armed forces of their respective worlds. And still practically everything they go up against is at least twice as hard as they are. But they keep doing it nonetheless.

More importantly, the Guard are the only army whose mindset I can vaguely understand. Though I'm neither an Imperial nor a soldier, I'm at least human and I can understand it takes bravery for them to do what they do. With psychos and aliens you're never quite sure how they feel about the wars.

Inquisitors (those who aren't psychos) are probably even braver, because they've got to face a lot of stuff that Guardsmen are blissfully ignorant of. And Inquisitors have more of a choice, they have to willingly do their thing. But Inquisitors aren't soldiers.

Darkhorse
22-12-2006, 11:07
Well it has to be humans, though there are a couple of varieties as well as the basic IG. There are the LATD who not only took on the everything that the galaxy has to throw at them but had the guts to tell the Imperium where to stick itself. Then there are the Alpha Legion cultists, basic humans, but FEARLESS stick that up your power armour and smoke it!

Steel_Legion
22-12-2006, 11:17
Guard Guard Guard! They face the worst horrors the universe can offer with the worst rifle, tinfoil armour, and "Faith in the Emperor"
heroes!

Lord Marshal Reinhard
22-12-2006, 13:13
Imperial Guard. Flashlight weapons, cardboard armour, and yet they stand fast against Tyranids & Chaos, rather than accept a quick & painless death from the commissar's bolt pistol... That's true courage.

Finnigan2004
22-12-2006, 13:52
It won't be popular, but I voted marines. They give up a real life to defend the rest of humanity-- that takes huge courage.

Diomedes
22-12-2006, 14:56
It won't be popular, but I voted marines. They give up a real life to defend the rest of humanity-- that takes huge courage.

True but if someone said to me "hey, were going to make you into the pinacle of human evolution, you will be superhumanly strong and have the best of everything and live for thousands of years as long as you don't get shot or eaten. You won't have to worry about anything cause we will take care of that, or you could stay on this feral world and still be killed or eaten, probably die of disease or starvation in the winter and maybe lose your wife in child birth and be dead in a few decades from old age"

I know which one I would choose!;)

Commisar Dincher
22-12-2006, 17:19
I voted orks, 1 slugga boy would mindlessly throw himself at a dreadnot just because he thought it would be a good fight, and im thrown in battle with a slugga and a choppa and my bare skin a few scraps of metal thrown on if im lucky.

hiveminion
22-12-2006, 18:07
One could argue fighting because you have no other option isn't really brave. I'd argue that to be brave you have to fight when there is another option that wasn't just dying.

Not really true. Though on some occasions Guard continue to fight because there is no other option, I believe the Tanith, for example, are assigned to suicide missions. Also when you know you're gonna die, yet stand and fight, that means you face your doom. That's brave. no matter what. Less courageous warriors run even though that won't help, driven insane by their fear, or take their own lives. Those that don't are brave.



Well its because orks are really brave. They only want to fight when they've got the numbers behind them. Thats just how they are, orkz are the playground bullies, they won't stand up when they're outnumbered by equal opponents.

Exactly. So that means you meant not brave, actually?



This doesn't really make sense. The eldar become warriors to avoid the grasp of Slannesh. And Eldar certainly aren't immortal, not even their farseers. Non-dark eldar who fight could be seen as brave as they fight even though they run the risk of being consumed by slannesh should their soulstone be destroyed. Their foresight gives them even greater bravery because they can understand the full consequence of all their actions. A man who runs into a burning building to save a baby may be brave, but a man who runs into a burning building to save a baby who *knows* he will die but the baby will survive is even braver.

I'm sorry my Eldar knowledge is lacking. Thanks for clearing this out.
Yet I still think Eldar aren't really brave. As someone said they fight knowing that should they lose they can always flee using the Webway, therefore they are the man who runs into a building trying to save a baby who knows that if he can't find it in time, he can safely jump out of the window and land safely on a large pillow.
Dark Eldar only attack undefended/badly defended positions and flee from strong opposition. Though this doesn't necessarily mean they're cowards it does make them less courageous than a Guardsman that is dropped on some location to fight, and if it goes wrong, he is likely left to die.



Every race has some power behind them. The IG for example have the power of ridiculous numbers of their fellows behind them plus the emperor. It doesn't restrain them from being brave. I'd say a cultist nestled in the heart of the imperium is very brave.

But as I said the real courage of the Guard comes to the fore when these numbers start to dwindle. A cultist can also be brave but I think they just take a gamble and hope they don't get caught. Or hope the power of Chaos'll help them out. Most of the times Guardsmen don't have a back-up plan, and they are sure they'll see battle.



Except a billion other men, tanks, naval craft, and the emperor of course. :eyebrows:

Which, with the exception of the Emperor, are all part of the IG, leaving onlt that rotten corpse. Their faith is strong, but it doesn't make them insanely brave like Sisters or the like. Guardsmen, unlike most Imperial fighting forces, have common sense



I'd disagree on many points here. IG are brave but not really "bravest".

That is all a matter of opinion.

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
22-12-2006, 19:42
I'd say the best way to do this is to break the argument down into it's component pieces, and look at a standard trooper from each individual army, his/her/it's training, conditioning, equipment, the military infrastructure behind him/her/it, their religious beliefs, concept of the afterlife, and the potential rewards to be garnered through going to war.

I'll start with the Space Marines for the sake of argument. The standard trooper is your basic tactical Marine. He is subjected to the most rigorous training imagineable (except that of assassins, grey knights, etc), and prepared to triumph over adversity in all potential situations (Delta Force doesn't have squat on the training these guys get). He is psycho-conditioned to be absolutely fearless (Codex Astartes: The Making of a Space Marine), to resist all temptations (including the urge to flee), and also the idea of self-sacrifice is indoctrinated into him; much in the same way that Japanese Kamikaze pilots in WWII were indoctrinated (minus the suicide part). He is given the finest mass-produced personal armor in the galaxy, the finest mass-produced infantry weapon in the Imperium, mono-molecular edged combat knife, fragmentation grenades, and auto-reactive muscular support built into his black carapace. His body is designed to keep him alive except under the most extreme forms of duress; his blood clots instantly, he has two hearts should one stop working, his bones have fused together to create an internal armor made from his ossified skeleton. He can spit acid. He can tear a man in half with his bare hands, and digest an ork. He's surrounded by 999 of his fellow psycho-conditioned supersoldiers. He believes (because he has been psycho-conditioned to do so) that when he dies, his soul will go to the Emperor. The potential rewards are legion. Promotion happens easily in SM ranks if he fights with valour. If he is good enough, he can become one of the heroes of the Imperium, or a legend in his chapter, becoming (almost) immortal. He will be brought home to rest in peace (pieces) in the vaults of his chapter's homeworld, his geneseed will be harvested, and his life will not have been sacrificed in vain; a new "him" will be born. Sounds pretty easy to be brave, to me.

In contrast, then, we look at the Imperial Guardsman, comprehensively. He is trained at least up to the standards of our special forces today, having been recruited from the upper crust of his PDF force, which one assumes are trained as well as the average EU Coalition soldier (Americans are a tier above, I believe). He knows specialized combat maneuvers, has above average (for 'umies) marksmanship, some close quarters training, and a fairly indepth knowledge of battlefield tactics, if he is a Non-Comm (which, for the sake of argument, he is). He has more than likely not been pyscho-conditioned any more than the average American soldier today. Sure, he has some built-in mechanisms to resist fear, but he still operates on a logical, reason-based system. His equipment is the best he has access to; but he knows every one of his enemies in the galaxy is better equipped/ stronger/ faster/ crazier/ scarier/ gribblier/ more brutal/ etc, and that his equipment will more than likely not keep him safe from these things. He's got to trust his mates, or he know's he won't be coming home for Christmas, if you catch my drift. The military infrastructure behind him does not care one bit if he lives or dies; the Imperial Guard has billions of soldiers, and the loss of his life won't matter to them one bit. He believes in the Emperor, but his belief is rational and logical; he has not been psycho-conditioned, merely trained. Thus, when he dies (which, invariably, he will, and sooner rather than later), he is not even assured he will be going to sit at the Right Hand of the Golden Throne, or whatever. The potential rewards to be garnered through war are non-existent. He may be decorated for valor, only to be thrown right back into the meat-grinder of a suicide assault the next day. Enlisted men tend not to live long enough to be promoted. He knows that even if the army he is a part of wins the war, that he still won't be going back home- he's just going to the next warzone on the list, until, inevitably, he falls dead on some backwater planet, light years away from his home planet and family. His death will not be mourned, he will not be buried or sent home; his body will rot where it fell, and the carrion birds of war will pick the flesh from his bones. He will die as he lived- unknown, and unremembered. Sounds bleak, eh? And yet, these guys suit up, lock and load, and man the defenses of the Imperium, by their billions, every day, knowing that nothing but an inglorious, humble death awaits them. That's courage, my friends. Neo-stoicism at it's finest, and a damned manly portrait of human bravery. My vote goes to the Imperial Guardsman, any day of the weak.
Cheers, and Happy Holidays.

azimaith
23-12-2006, 00:46
Not really true. Though on some occasions Guard continue to fight because there is no other option, I believe the Tanith, for example, are assigned to suicide missions. Also when you know you're gonna die, yet stand and fight, that means you face your doom. That's brave. no matter what. Less courageous warriors run even though that won't help, driven insane by their fear, or take their own lives. Those that don't are brave.
The way I see it, its hard to be brave with the absence of another option. If you have no choice but to fight, none to run away, then being brave (in terms of fighting) isn't an option. I'd draw a line between cowardice and battlefield insanity though. Perhaps the more accurate way for me to say it is: 'Not as brave' as if you stood to fight when you had a choice of retreat.




Exactly. So that means you meant not brave, actually?

Not brave for orks. If you look a their bacis statline, orks are only "brave" so long as their twisted sense of logic is behind them. Sure they'll charge a daemon prince, but only if they *think* they've got enough orkz to hurt it, and ork calculations aren't necessarily accurate.
Oh and that line was supposed to say: "aren't" not are. My bad.



I'm sorry my Eldar knowledge is lacking. Thanks for clearing this out.
Yet I still think Eldar aren't really brave. As someone said they fight knowing that should they lose they can always flee using the Webway, therefore they are the man who runs into a building trying to save a baby who knows that if he can't find it in time, he can safely jump out of the window and land safely on a large pillow.
Well they don't all have little web way generators they can use. Fleeing via the webway all comes down to getting everyone to a webway gate. So the whole jumping out the window things not really analagous because he'd have to jump out the window, sprint down the street, take a left, activate the big pillow for it to work.



Dark Eldar only attack undefended/badly defended positions and flee from strong opposition. Though this doesn't necessarily mean they're cowards it does make them less courageous than a Guardsman that is dropped on some location to fight, and if it goes wrong, he is likely left to die.

I wouldn't argue for Dark Eldar being brave.



Which, with the exception of the Emperor, are all part of the IG, leaving onlt that rotten corpse. Their faith is strong, but it doesn't make them insanely brave like Sisters or the like. Guardsmen, unlike most Imperial fighting forces, have common sense

Heresy! The Emperor protects! *sign of the Aquilla*. The point was to show guardsmen don't really fight with no one behind them. They have the entire Imperial navy behind them. A position thats about to be attacked by a massed tyranid force could have its enemies melted by air support for example.



That is all a matter of opinion.
Well I won't disagree there.

Imperialis_Dominatus
23-12-2006, 03:46
Every other army allows us to pretend there is something "special" or "different" that sets them above the average person and makes them heroic. The Imperial Guard may have hero's but they are still just men.:D

Heh... Guardsmen are what everyone else thinks they are better than.


It won't be popular, but I voted marines. They give up a real life to defend the rest of humanity-- that takes huge courage.

What life? I mean, Diomedes below said it best. The standard life for someone being recruited for SM would otherwise be short, brutal, unpleasant. Give me a bolter, great armor, and a few surgery scars and intense therapy sessions anyday- the life of a warrior over the life of an Imperial citizen on a deathworld.


True but if someone said to me "hey, were going to make you into the pinacle of human evolution, you will be superhumanly strong and have the best of everything and live for thousands of years as long as you don't get shot or eaten. You won't have to worry about anything cause we will take care of that, or you could stay on this feral world and still be killed or eaten, probably die of disease or starvation in the winter and maybe lose your wife in child birth and be dead in a few decades from old age"

I know which one I would choose!;)

Yeah, me too.

AngryAngel
23-12-2006, 07:54
Those deathworlds might be crappy. It doesn't mean the people that grow up there don't still enjoy their lives, just because something is hard doesn't mean its entirely unpleasent. The space marine recruits still give up their lives to serve. While it may not be understandable to us, we don't live on a death world, even people in the harshest sections of our world enjoy their lives as best they can.

Like it or not some of us will think there is something brave in that. Giving up possible happieness for nothing but service and death..ending with your own.

Finnigan2004
23-12-2006, 14:26
Um, o.k.. Let me get this straight there's no courage in choosing to be a space marine. They're taking them from their family (they'll never see them again, but on the bright side, they won't have a wife to die in childbirth), then they training them incessantly (many actually die in training), then they will send them back to a succession of deathworlds until eventually they die horribly. Hopefully, they'll die at the hands of a tyranid and be devoured for biomass (if they're lucky), but if they're less lucky, they'll die screaming for weeks at the hands of dark eldar pirates. Yup, sounds like a good deal to me. ;) I think probably it's all a matter of perspective.

skyfurnace
23-12-2006, 14:30
Imperial Guard.

Because they're just men.

Eldar Guardians would be my next choice.

The Keeper of Secrets
23-12-2006, 15:04
As far as I'm concerned bravery is to face certain death in order to save others, or a higher military being (commander) than yourself. See p16 of re marine codex for a short peice of dialouge showing a marine's bravery, to see what I mean.

I voted Guard

Souleater
23-12-2006, 15:18
... it's Imperial guard, because they fight anything from chaos cultists to tyranids armed with a rifle and armoured with a shirt.

QFT.

Armour worth spit. A gun that is better suited to making Creme Brulie.

Just guts.

Really respect IG. I love the fluff of these ordinary guys squaring off against the Enemies of Man when everybody else is smarter, stronger, better teched, or an ancient killing machine from the dawn of time.

Diomedes
23-12-2006, 15:37
Brave but not bravest! read "Space Marine" and that gives you a fair idea just how much young men who live on a planet want to get out of it!

Life on most Imperial worlds let alone death worlds is hard unless your born into the ruling classes and many young men would want to be in the Guard let alone one of the Star Gods!

MrBigMr
23-12-2006, 15:49
I have nothing against the Eldar, but they have the benefit of picking their fights in their mobile craftworlds rather than sitting on a pile of planetary gold just waiting for all sorts of freaks to invade.

Vaktathi
23-12-2006, 19:43
I think it's safe to say, from the looks of this poll, we have a winner.

Imperialis_Dominatus
23-12-2006, 21:07
You kidding, mate? This has to be the closest poll I've ever seen. :rolleyes:

Thanks be to the Throne that those damned Astartes didn't win. I would have to eat my paintbrush. :wtf:

insectum7
23-12-2006, 21:20
Call it as you will, Space Marines are still not going to die after loosing and breaking in a close combat. While the average guardsman is quite likely to flee and die, the averge Space Marine is guaranteed to die trying. In fact, as I see it, Space Marines have a special rule in place specifically there to represent their bravery. The notorious ATSKNF

Daemon king Mad Dog
23-12-2006, 21:25
*ahem* Imperial guard must have truck laods of courage just to join the service! Not all fo them are pressganged, their mostly voulonteers...

And any way, 1 commissar will fall to 5 guardsmen... especialy when the gaurdsmen are behind him and he has no idea whats about to happen... oh and the guardsmen own a leman russ... so the commissar argument is outta the window :)

Vaktathi
23-12-2006, 21:26
Call it as you will, Space Marines are still not going to die after loosing and breaking in a close combat. While the average guardsman is quite likely to flee and die, the averge Space Marine is guaranteed to die trying. In fact, as I see it, Space Marines have a special rule in place specifically there to represent their bravery. The notorious ATSKNF

Part of bravery is overcoming your fear, it is still there, but you manage it. Not knowing fear means you don't have to overcome it, thus there is less to "Bravery" for a Marine than a Guardsmen (It's alot easier to charge into a swarm of tyranids if you don't fear them, if you are deathly afraid of them, but still make that charge, I'd say that constitutes a greater act of bravery)

insectum7
23-12-2006, 21:36
For many chapters, recruitment and training demands that you have already conquered your fear by performing some incredible task, often at the age of 12 or thereabouts.

One might argue that strictly not knowing fear is unbrave, but 'Fearless' models behave somewhat differently than ATSKNF models. The Space Marines intelligently perform their duties in the face of all adversaries, the Fearless models function more on near insanity in most cases.

Daemon king Mad Dog
23-12-2006, 21:54
Survivors of the imperial guard (Who are for the most part doing heroic acts, such as, turning up, or taking a charge of genestealers armed only with a bayonet) have to do these acts again, knowing full well the horror involved.

Zangblaza
23-12-2006, 22:02
I say eldar. Every single life they have is precious, and everytime they go to war, they risk severly depleting their strength and commiting their craftworld to death. They ave no stronger or tougher than a man, and their armor is lighter than that of the Astartes or many other forces. On top of that, the Warp Spiders, a unit near and dear to my heart, also risk their very souls to the great enemy every single time they jump. That takes courage. Would you press a button knowing that if someone rolled doubles, you'd die and be tortured for an eternity?

Daemon king Mad Dog
23-12-2006, 22:06
Yeah Zang, i would. lol! Just for fun...

Reinhard_Vogner
23-12-2006, 22:32
Well, what exactly is bravery? Its already glaringly obvious that we all hold varying degrees on what exactly bravery is. This is based on our own experiences with having courage. You got to realize that our view of bravery comes from only a very human stand point, which the guard embodies. This arguement in itself is completely daft, because its asking "which of these warriors, fit the human form of bravery the best?"

its obviously your standard human because thats what humanity's concept of bravery is based on. Average Joe Infantryman. All we can relate to is the fact that humans, even when faced with a hopeless cause in the most dismal of circumstances, will stand up and face that challenge.

If we were instead, all super genetic warriors who knew no fear, our "knowledge of bravery" would be something completely different. I am sure that a Space Marine can be equally as brave as Joe Infantryman, but his whole criteria is in a different field. Its like comparing a drag race car, to a street race car, and going "which one is better at racing?"
Obviously they excell in their field, and preform subpar when out of its "zone".
Guardsmen and Marines can both be brave, but they are measured by different standards, just like the different types of race cars.

This is even more so with Xenos. They arn't even human at all. Its like comparing a Tornado to a Ferarri, and going "Whats a better racer?" Its rather daft. Even if you COULD compare a xenos to a human, the great majority of us will say "the guardsmen" because he fits the ideal of "human bravery." The eldar, while similar, might have a totally different criteria on what exactly bravery is, and in their eyes, that guardian is thousands of times braver, and the guardsmen, is just stupid.

Like I said, from an arbitrary standpoint, this arguement is dumb because each race has a different standard, or has no standard at all in this department. a building is not going to care if it can out race a ferarri.

from a human stand point though, I throw my lot in with the guardsmen :evilgrin:

marv335
23-12-2006, 23:04
space marines cannot be the bravest by definition.
"for they shall know no fear"
the marines are hypno-indoctrinated to be fearless.
without fear there can be no bravery.
bravery is overcoming fear.

Theadium
23-12-2006, 23:56
I think Grey Knights are

insectum7
23-12-2006, 23:58
So performing your duties and protecting your fellow soldier in the face of all odds isn't brave?

It's not that Space Marines are fearless, its that they refuse to aknowledge their fear when it interferes with their duty. They can aknowledge their feelings later, and are probably encouraged to seek reassurance from the company Chaplain when they feel like their faith isn't holding up very well. But they arent blind to danger as some would have you think. The amount of 'brainwashing' probably varies a great deal, and it isn't total by any means. Space Marines retain their humanity (well most of them, I'm going with the average here) despite all their indoctrination.

Now historically in the 40K universe, the Rogue Trader days emphasized a more near-psychotic mentality of the marines, while nowadays the more heroic nature is played up alot. Likewise, the Imperial Guard have similarly undergone a bit of an ethical face-lift. Penal-Legions were a big part of the Imperial Army back in the day, and the majority of the Imperial Guard were draftees not entering by choice. In fact, in some cases the punishment for turning in a library book late was service in the Imperial Army. So to suggest that the Imperial Guard is somehow only made up of volunteers is similarly skewed.

This is not to say that the bravest of the Imperial Guard are somehow lesser thatn the bravest of Space Marines, or Eldar or Tau or whatever. My point is that, on average, the Space Marine is going to be the guy most likely to fight as hard as he can for as long as he can, while being fully aware that he is in the most dire of circumstances. Not because he's insane, but because he is more likely to have instilled in him a greater sense of duty than the others.

You can call psycho-conditioning a bit of a cheat, but millitaries have been conditioning soldiers for combat for millenia.

Daemon king Mad Dog
24-12-2006, 09:44
Insectum, guardsmen are cannon fodder, it takes much more bravery to do something where theres no hope, wearing a T-shirt agaisnt a hammer head, but a space marine is wearing power armour agaisnt a hammer head! (Although to be fair, they'd both die miserably)

Bravery is bravery, courage, etc. not heroics! I've done slightly heroic things and I'm NOT brave! A tendancy to run away as soon as bigger people come he he he.

The weaker you are the more bravery is involved to do something, especialy as more guardsmen die than space marines, more than the difference in numbers would say.

hiveminion
24-12-2006, 14:23
space marines cannot be the bravest by definition.
"for they shall know no fear"
the marines are hypno-indoctrinated to be fearless.
without fear there can be no bravery.
bravery is overcoming fear.


I agree here. To become a Space Marine, you must pass trials that will not only test your faith and physical strangth, but also your courage. One could argue that every recruit that becomes a Space Marine has overcome all his primal fears during his training. Therefore, a Space Marine never feels fear. On the field of battle, a Marine will not be courageous, because the horrors of war are normal working conditions for him.

A Marine that stands and fights is just as brave as a manager doing his job, or a student attending college.

insectum7
24-12-2006, 18:09
So let me get this straight, once you have overcome your fear, you can no longer be brave, merely valorous?

Were the Spartans of Thermopolye not brave because they had overcome their fear of death?

I think that Reinhard_Vogners assertion that the definition of bravery is on different scales is a good one, and justly illustrates the aspects of the discussion that are difficult to quantify.

The direct comparrisson of both guardsmen and marines against the Hammerhead isn't quite right, because the two troop types are usually deployed under far different contexts. For example, Space Marines are the guys who are routinely called upon to clean out space hulks, or even board Tyranid warships. Marines are called upon to undertake the most drastic of combat scenarios, time and time again, for potentially centuries of service time. Stuff like, "Allright, you got a hundred men, a spaceship and maybe a couple of tanks, now go fix that planet which is filled to the brim with raving cultists."

On a different note, if we took an infinitely bad threat (thus removing scale), and place both a marine and a guardsman before it, which guy is the most likely guy to die fighting.

And I think that Theadium has it right, Grey Knights are top notch. They are expected to literally go through hell and still acheive their mission.

Greatoliver
24-12-2006, 18:29
I typed "brave" into dictionary.com and this is what I found:


brave ...
–adjective 1. possessing or exhibiting courage or courageous endurance.
2. making a fine appearance.
3. Archaic. excellent; fine; admirable...

A brave person in someone who "exhibites courage". Good. I then typed "courage" into that site and I found:


courage ...
–noun 1. the quality of mind or spirit that enables a person to face difficulty, danger, pain, etc., without fear; bravery.
2. Obsolete. the heart as the source of emotion...

So, if a Space Marine has no fear, according to dictionary.com, he can be brave. insectum7, I have to agree with you, having no fear means you can still be brave.

Actually, surely by being brave you have no fear? That is bridging the gap between facing something and facing something without fear, so perhaps if you are brave, you may also have fear, but you do not need it to be brave. If that makes sense.:confused:

Another thing is that IMO you cannot be brave if you have no other choice and if you are stark raving mad. For example, if you have to face danger then there is no need for courage thus equalling in the absense of a chance to be brave. Also, if you are barmy, you often don't have controll over what you do or you literally don't have the option of doing anything but facing the danger as your body won't allow it...

Now here comes the problem. Are Space Marines psychotic or are the fearless? I would say that they are fearless and have the option to fall back from danger. They can be brave as they can face danger with the option of not facing it.

So, are Imperial Guard the most brave? No, Space Marines are more braver than they are. Imperial Guardsmen face slightly better stuff than Marines as they are usually not sent on really nasty missions and so do not face such dangerous dangers. But, they still are brave.

Grey Knights though? I'll think about it... ;)

Vaktathi
24-12-2006, 18:51
So let me get this straight, once you have overcome your fear, you can no longer be brave, merely valorous?

Were the Spartans of Thermopolye not brave because they had overcome their fear of death?

I think that Reinhard_Vogners assertion that the definition of bravery is on different scales is a good one, and justly illustrates the aspects of the discussion that are difficult to quantify.

The direct comparrisson of both guardsmen and marines against the Hammerhead isn't quite right, because the two troop types are usually deployed under far different contexts. For example, Space Marines are the guys who are routinely called upon to clean out space hulks, or even board Tyranid warships. Marines are called upon to undertake the most drastic of combat scenarios, time and time again, for potentially centuries of service time. Stuff like, "Allright, you got a hundred men, a spaceship and maybe a couple of tanks, now go fix that planet which is filled to the brim with raving cultists."

On a different note, if we took an infinitely bad threat (thus removing scale), and place both a marine and a guardsman before it, which guy is the most likely guy to die fighting.

And I think that Theadium has it right, Grey Knights are top notch. They are expected to literally go through hell and still acheive their mission.

The Spartans at the line of Thermopolye is an interesting example, while indeed a brave act, would it have been more valorous for 300 persians to square off against a million Spartans?

Nobody is saying that Space Marines are not Brave, they are saying that for the vast majority of instances, it takes more guts for a guardsmen to face the enemy than a Space Marine.

In a fight against Chaos Marines, who do you think is going to require more bravery to take the field, SM's or IG? The Space Marines are facing the forces of Chaos on equal footing more or less, the Imperial Guard are fighting their worst nightmares with far less equipment.

insectum7
24-12-2006, 19:27
Thanks for the post Greatoliver, good to know someones got my back.



Now here comes the problem. Are Space Marines psychotic or are the fearless? I would say that they are fearless and have the option to fall back from danger. They can be brave as they can face danger with the option of not facing it.


Yeah I agree that that is where some of the rub is, so to speak. There are depictions of marines as being psychotic, and that is more downplayed nowadays than it was in the past, but they are out there. The 3rd ed codex included a little article about the actions of a chapter, the White Panthers, arriving on the scene after being petitioned by the investigating Inquisitor to quell a rebellion. Instead of taking out the authority and turning the loyalties of the populace, the White Panthers systematically destroyed the entirety of the planet's defence force, detonated the armories and executed everyone in charge, then left witout a thought to reparations. This would presumeably be the work of the overzealous and unreasoning style of Space Marine, who are really a far cry from say, the Ultramarines, who are famous for being far more helpfull and reasonable in their application of force. They ensure that the planetary infrastructure is either left intact or rebuilt, and that the planet retains the ability to defend itself from any Xenos threats etc. These are not the actions of psychotic supersoldiers, but the actions of a more rational beings who have retained their humanity despite the many trials and tribulations experienced because of their service as Space Marines.

Similarly, there are imperial guard regiments who will also border on the line of psychotic. The Chem Inhaler doctrine raises the question as to whether drug use is brave or not. Depending on the intentions of the soldiers and the effects of the chemicals used, I would say that it's pretty controversial and context dependent.



Nobody is saying that Space Marines are not Brave, they are saying that for the vast majority of instances, it takes more guts for a guardsmen to face the enemy than a Space Marine.


It's true that in the contexts of 40K games that the guardsmen regularly face off against against foes that are bigger, stronger and tougher than themselves. But it is also true that guardsmen fail their targeting rolls, pinning checks and break from combat only to be sweeping advanced over far more often than Space Marines. In fact, because of ATSKNF it is impossible for a Space Marine to run from combat, they will always die trying, even the scouts. Space Marines can get confused, distressed and even falter, but they don't run the way the guard do.

zodgrim
24-12-2006, 20:00
The Necrons are the bravest. They're frelling robots! These aren't Star Wars battle droids.

Green Shine e Lemon
24-12-2006, 20:40
I would say that the bravest warriors i can think of were the space marines who stayed with the emporer at the dropsite massacre, the death korps of kreig maby(or they are just fueled by blind rage or seek redemption of their ansesstors acts), but i voted for the eldar mainly the beil-tan because they think the only way to save the eldar is through battle so most of them are part of the warrior aspect going to battle just to rebuild their race and have the weight of the future on their shoulders.

Daemon king Mad Dog
25-12-2006, 11:04
I See over coming fear as brave.

Space Marine have no option but to fight, they are programmed to hold their position unless ordered to fall back or advance. They obviously will not flee in the face of danger.

Imperial guard However have the option to flee, especialy if their no where near a commissar. but they CHOSE not to, they chose to fight an 8 foot tall chaos terminator! They a bayonet. Space Marines are brave yes, but not as brave as guardsmen. And i think Dictionary.com got it wrong with the without fear bit, courage is overcomign fear, no one nowadays is without fear when their faceing down the barrel of the machinegun, wether they display the fear or not is courage, wether they let fear drive them towards actions is differant.

We're looking at this from a fluff view and that means movie space marines, heroism and bravery are not the same thing!

Tanith Ghost
25-12-2006, 14:30
Indeed, courage is easy when you're a superhuman beast of a man, armed and armored with the best and sure to your very soul you WILL win the day.
It takes a diferent type of guts of take on that chaos terminator when all you've got is some brass knuckles and a bad additude. As Daemon king just said, it take much more courage to be the latter, especialy when victory is by no means assured and death all too likely.

AngryAngel
25-12-2006, 21:27
While the imperial guard are but normal men..do they really have the option to run away ? They don't enlist, they're activated like conscripts. They don't choose to engage an 8 foot tall chaos term because they feel they need to make a brave stand.

They're orderd same as the marines to do a job. In some cases protecting their own home worlds from invasion.In most of their battles failure is not an option if you run away..where will you run to ?

The only reason guard don't use bolters or power armor is because they aren't offerd it. Trained to use it, otherwise they would too.

Marines and guards are both brave. If one is the other one has to be.

Gen.Steiner
25-12-2006, 21:58
While the imperial guard are but normal men..do they really have the option to run away?

Yes.


Marines and guards are both brave. If one is the other one has to be.

No, because the Space Marines, as has been stated before, Know No Fear and thus cannot be brave because bravery involves facing and conquering your fears. If you have no concept of fear, you're not brave.

Splagbot
25-12-2006, 23:31
Yes.

Yes...just yes!



No, because the Space Marines, as has been stated before, Know No Fear and thus cannot be brave because bravery involves facing and conquering your fears. If you have no concept of fear, you're not brave.

Erm....yes...or no, whichever one means I agree with you.

I'm confused, I agree with what Steiner said.

Gen.Steiner
25-12-2006, 23:52
Erm....yes...or no, whichever one means I agree with you.

I'm confused, I agree with what Steiner said.

Yes = agreement. :)

Also, agreeing with me is the best policy and I'm glad you acknowledge it :p

Splagbot
26-12-2006, 00:48
Also, agreeing with me is the best policy and I'm glad you acknowledge it :p

If it's the best policy then I'm gonna agree with whatever you say from now on.

Gen.Steiner
26-12-2006, 00:56
If it's the best policy then I'm gonna agree with whatever you say from now on.

I hereby promote you to "Fearless and Heroic Lackey"! :D

Shasolenzabi
26-12-2006, 04:15
[[[ Having fought and destroyed many an IG unit with my Mechanized Tau forces, having seen them fight Nids/Orks/CSM/Eldar/DE/Necrons, etc. I must say that IG show the highest bravery, overcoming fears and hanging in the fight, even when they see the battle is not going to grant them victory.

I have begun an IG style army, I have made several lists for my Khadrovian forces, and the slowness of the tanks, the low strength of the lasrifle, the low stopping power of their armor, the squishiness of the troops,,,,,all these negatives, and yet, yet they fight on! and from time to time, the odds swing their way and the lowly Guard actually win!

I give my utmost respect to the brave men and women of the Guard!
(Realistically, my FW's get the punchy Pulse rifle and carapace, plus a shiny Devilfish with airconditioned interior to float around in!)

I voted IG.

Splagbot
26-12-2006, 04:22
I hereby promote you to "Fearless and Heroic Lackey"! :D

Woo hoo, I got promoted and the rest of you didn't, haha, in your face everybody, your collective face of course, it'd take too long to get in everybodies faces.

Paladin-01
26-12-2006, 04:30
Yet again coming as someone who's knowledge comes from listening in on conversations and Wikipedia, it always felt like fanatacism was a huge part of all the important armies, either that, or the idea that someone not as bad as your foe but still able to kill you instantly has you in range.

Creep
26-12-2006, 04:56
But Space Marines are brave...they chose to give up their previous life for one filled with war and death. They, at one point, chose to overcome their fears, and thats why they are now fearless. Space Marines are brave, because they take on insurmountable odds, and win.

Necrons are also brave. It takes some serious balls to sell your soul.

The only race that I think cannot be brave is Tyranids. They're controlled by one mind, who just kind of sits back and throws a bunch of bugs at people.

Then again, I would hate to have to face whatever the Tyranids are running from...

AngryAngel
26-12-2006, 05:08
Sorry ya disagree with me Steiner, I disagree with you. I guess we'll just have to live with that. Though I will keep fighting for the cause all the same, as you will I'm sure. I have looked up the definition of bravery three diffrent places. As well as the one definition we have on this thread already.

It fits marines as well as it fits guard. You can say marines aren't brave but by definition they are.

COURAGE implies firmness of mind and will in the face of danger or extreme difficulty <the courage to support unpopular causes

Bravery being to show courage. Though thats just one more definition, however how many will be ignored when saying marines aren't brave is the real question.

Considering they won't ever break in the face of such dangers, hardships or horrors that would make them braver. Or at least as brave as a man can ever be.

MysticTitan
26-12-2006, 05:56
To be brave, that "without fear" part means having fears (unlike marines) and overcoming them! Lack of fear means that you can't overcome it (Nothing to do).
On a minor note, this seems to be another "Marines are the best" "No their not!" type of thread...

Reinhard_Vogner
26-12-2006, 06:32
Well, to be honest, the space marines ARN'T completely fearless. There are too many descrepencies on the principle of fear, and how the space marines act. Now I don't believe that they fear individuals, nor do they fear their enemies capabilities in combat, but they have other fears. The Dark Angels are a perfect example. If they did not fear that the fallen would be discovered, would they justify they many actions in regards to the fallen? No matter how you look at the Dark Angel's reaction, how they act, is in fear of their secret being discovered. Instead, I believe that Space Marine "fear" is permenently supressed, desensitized to combat and its horrors. They don't fear bodily injury. They don't fear the capabilities of the enemy, they don't fear for their own lives. But they DO fear for the failure of their chapter, failure for the imperium. Why they fight.

This is what seperates the Space Marine from the guardsmen. While the guardsmen fears for the failure of the imperium, during combat, he might fear for his life more. A space marine is the complete opposite. He does not fear for his life, but he fears for the imperium and his brothers.

Now this isn't a "all guardsmen are this way, all space marines are this way" ideal, but for most cases, this is true. I personally believe that the two types of soldiers are both equally brave, but marines are alienated because they arn't your standard infantryman joe. They arn't considered "completely human" by most, and thus, the same treatment a xenos gets, the space marine gets just because we can't understand the mind of a superhuman warrior who "supposedly" has no fear. They are elevated above their fellow man, and because of this fact, they can't POSSIBLY be braver then a man whos standing in life is lower.

If this wasn't a fantasy game regarding genetically modified super human warriors clad in power armour, I would call arrogance ignorance on anyone who deemed someone in a better position, incapable of bravery. Just because one has conquered his fears and learned how to completely ignore its existence before a battle, does not make one any less brave. Its merely preperation. Tell me, where does the line of ignorance and bravery lie? If a man knows that he is the best shot in the world, is getting a bow to kill an invader cowardice, because he knows without a shadow of a doubt that he is the best shot in the world and will slay the tresspasser? Or will he be ignorant and grab a spear and engage his enemy in close combat, because its considered "braver".

The french gave the same excuse at the battle of Agincourt and Pointiers about the english. Did that make the english any less brave? I do not think so.

Just because a space marine knows that he does not fear for his life and knows that he is protected by his power armour, does not make him any less brave then a guardsmen armed with a flak jacket and a lasgun. he might have less to fear then a guardsmen, but in situations where a guardsmen might break and run, the space marine will hold strong. Where is the line drawn?

It shouldn't. They are two different calibres of man, and are judged on different scales that cannot be compared.

Daemon king Mad Dog
26-12-2006, 08:49
Reinhard, if your a 6 foot guards man (Going back to an old example here) fighting a 8 foot terminator, you have a lot more fear than say, an 8 foot terminator fighting an 8 foot terminator! They may be equaly as brave in a sense but the guardsman has more to fear, but still holds.

But Space Marines are brave...they chose to give up their previous life for one filled with war and death. They, at one point, chose to overcome their fears, and thats why they are now fearless. Space Marines are brave, because they take on insurmountable odds, and win.



Space Marines have no choice. they Must become Space Marines, and anyway, all life in the imperium is filled with war and death, in the grim future of the 40,000 universe there is only war!

And generaly, the odds are on the space marines side, thats the point of them.

insectum7
26-12-2006, 10:14
Ok, the guardsman is against a 8 foot tall Terminator, but the space Marine is up against a 18 foot tall Bloodthirster. The Space Marine will not run, the guardsman has about a 40&#37; chance of turnign his back and fleeing, leaving his fellows to die. My point is that there is always a bigger fish, and no matter how big the 'fish' is, the Space Marine won't flee, the guardsman has a good chance of failing his comrades by running away.

It's not to say that guardsmen can't be brave, but I am a bit disturbed by the extreme results of the poll, and the idea that somehow Space Marines aren't brave, when almost by definition they are the very best humanity has to offer. I think it's a more complex issue than most folk think. It is good that people are rooting for the underdog, but in this case the underdog is also notorious for less than ideal Ld test results. The guard may stand against the Chaos Terminator, but the guard may also be cut down when running from Gretchin.

In fact, to take the guardsmen/terminator thing a bit further, might that discrepancy between troop value/statline then make Gretchin more brave than guardsmen? Gretchin have **** poor stats, and are herded into battle in a manner that is perhaps not unlike a Commissar ensuring the loyal actions of his troops. The gretchin are certainly aware of their peril, and according to some fluff sources they are smarter than Orks, so they aren't mere animals. Are gretchin braver than guardsmen? If not, why?

Eldar are far more aware of their peril than humans are. The Eldar know that if they slip up, eternal damnation awaits them. The Infinity Circut is a good net for their souls, but it's not guaranteed hat they will make it there. The example earlier about the Warp Spiders is a good one. These guys know exactly how bad it can be for their them if they are lost to the warp, and still take tremendous risks by teleporting around the way they do.

Daemon king Mad Dog
26-12-2006, 10:36
The grots are braver thing is, well, wrong, because all grot units ahve a slaver, if he is killed then the unit flees. If a commissar is killed then the Guard don't flee, so theres a big difference there, especialy as grots are described as cowardly, and would only attack a terminator if there were enough grots to go infront.

I am not disturbed by the results.

But if you look, since this arguement has beenr aised, the other races are gettign less and less votes, and space marines and imperial guard more, this shows that people are actualy listebning to us, why i have no idea.

I'm surprised no one's opened up the ork front, as they are very brave, they think that the more enemy there are, the more glroy there is and that orks can never lose.

i did define bravery on google, it said bravery was courage, then:-
courage: a quality of spirit that enables you to face danger or pain without showing fear
fearlessness: feeling no fear
differant things.

AngryAngel
27-12-2006, 08:03
@ Reinhard speak the truth brother. Good show.

@Insectum Good on you as well. Good showing my brothers. Good to see some supoort shine through here.

As for having to have fears. None of these definitions have said anything about needing to feel fear to be brave. They just say pushing on, and represing fear. Not feeling it. Heck even Mad Dog has it right there. Three things that say space marines are in fact, brave.

A quality of spirit that enables you to face danger or pain without showing fear.

Being fearless would generally mean you've supressed it. Nothing in those definitions does it say you need to feel fear. It does say you need to not show it. If you don't feel it, your definatly not showing it.

As for the guard having a choice to join the guard. How much of a choice is that really ? If they really need people they will simply take them, force you into the military and there is nothing they could do or say about it. To run when faced with that 8 foot tall terminator, would mean more then likely your a dead man walking.

If the marines aren't brave then the guard are as brave as a cornered animal which is scarred s**tless, but fights because thats its only chance to survive. I think the debate more stems from not wanting to give marines even their bravery props.

Shasolenzabi
27-12-2006, 08:36
[[[ It is actually interesting to see the debate take on a good tack. Okay, Orks and Grots, grots are brave so long as they have the slaver to herd them, otherwise they seek to run and be free. Orks are predisposed to fight, it's in dere blud! so they may also count as recklessly battlecrazy.

Tyranids, the moving wall of appetite, if they don't attack the hive starves, like ants would, so they are all expendable parts of the Hive mind, and most get to jump into the digestion pools after they kill all opposition.

DE, they are reckless, drug happy, and cruel, if they do not fight, then yes they get no one to take their place to be devoured by Slaanesh.

Eldar, they have a lot of understanding that they could well die, but they have worse circumstances, they are indeed brave, but also confident since they have some idea of the future, they actually fight when the Farseers say it is necessary, otherwise chill out in the craftworlds.

Chaos, they are blood crazed, and also wish to appease their gods and gain favors. they choose to fight as it is against the Imperium, their sworn enemies, but they mostly choose to fight the Imperium.

Space Marines; Easy to be brave when you have been made into a 7ft tall, hard to kill, self healing, powerarmor wearing, uber trianed and mentally conditioned fanatical killing machine! Not saying Marines aren't brave, but they have so much stacked in their favor compared to the lowly guardsmen.

Tau; Tau have shown some incredible bravery.but they do come with decent armor, have access to some of the best weapons and equipment in the galaxy, and they have a confidence that the Greater Good is behind them.

For the IG, they have many different units reflecting so many different levels of bravery or control, they get poor armor, if they are lucky, they get adequate armor. their tank are about a cross between WW-II to some sci-fi weapons armaments. they pray that the Emperor will be watching over them. they do not come back from the battlezones they die in, Marines will be recovered whenever possible for their Gene-seed, or to be made a dreadnought, the IG soldier is not so fortunate!

The IG soldiers have to swallow their fear, and deal with the situation, and against chaos, they face execution, so the taint will not spread. SM have survived many battles, recovered from wounds that will kill a mortal man, and have access to the best weapons and gear that the Imperium can give any army. The Life expectancy of an average IG soldier is maybe 15hours after landing in the warzone.

MrBigMr
27-12-2006, 08:51
As for having to have fears. None of these definitions have said anything about needing to feel fear to be brave. They just say pushing on, and represing fear. Not feeling it. Heck even Mad Dog has it right there. Three things that say space marines are in fact, brave.
“Bravery is being the only one who knows you're afraid.”
-Franklin P. Jones

“Bravery is the capacity to perform properly even when scared half to death.”
-Omar Bradley

“The brave man is not he who feels no fear, For that were stupid and irrational; But he, whose noble soul its fear subdues, And bravely dares the danger nature shrinks from”
-Joanna Baillie

“Brave men are all vertebrates; they have their softness on the surface and their toughness in the middle.”
-G. K. Chesterton

“Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear.”
-Ambrose Redmoon

“Courage is doing what you're afraid to do. There can be no courage unless you're scared.”
-Edward Vernon Rickenbacker

“Keep your fears to yourself, but share your courage with others.”
-Robert Louis Stevenson

master of chaos
27-12-2006, 10:00
IG are truly brave (well most of them...) if someone gave you a flashlight and told you to shoot those billion tyranids, you would run as soon as possible:mad: (just watch out for commissars:p )

Tanith Ghost
27-12-2006, 11:09
Tau; Tau have shown some incredible bravery.but they do come with decent armor, have access to some of the best weapons and equipment in the galaxy, and they have a confidence that the Greater Good is behind them.


Tau have the bravery of the ***** who takes 'tokyo rose' seriously'- none.
They're programmed fish who turn tail as soon as the controling ethereal bites it. Propaganda soaked cowards one and all.

Cactusman
27-12-2006, 12:18
Has anyone read Storm of Iron? An Imperial Fist waxes lyrical on exactly this subject. He said the guard were the bravest of the lot. I tend to agree.

Captain Micha
27-12-2006, 12:57
"And they shall know, no fear" nuff said in the rines case. They do not know what fear is on the battlefield. They understand honour and valor, but if you do not know what fear is you do truly not exude bravery.

Guard are the bravest. as I said before. you're an average soldier given a flak vest and a flashlight (basicly) and told to go fight the worst the galaxy has to offer. Be it choas, orks, Eldar, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons or even other Imperial Guard or Space Marines. You're scared beyond the ability to defecate but you do it anyway. Because if you do not. Who will? The Space Marines? Which up till recently in my novel reading manage to miraculously show up and save the ailing incompetent guard. Not so in Double Eagle. Its all true Imperium baby. The Guard and the Navy. Even cities of death after the bts tried to say they were the ones that saved armageddon cod admitted that the original saviours (The guard) were infact the ones that saved armageddon.

Tau perhaps are the second bravest. At least the Imperial Guard have a god emperor. the Tau have the tau'va. some vague ideal that they do not even understand best weaponry or not. You're still up against the meanest forces out there and your army does not even train for cqc (close quarters combat) which will inevitably happen.

Eldar. perhaps third up there. If they die. Slaanesh might get them. I'm sorry guys don't know about you but I would not want to be a self aware soul with slaanesh having its eye on me.

Orks. big nasty mofos. Who get charged up with the power of waaaaagh! (hopes thats enough "a"s there for you ork boyz)

Tyranid hungry bugs. very, very hungry bugs.

Necrons, their only emotion left is hate. Hatred of all life.

Space Marines... "And they shall know no fear"

Daemon king Mad Dog
27-12-2006, 18:35
After Reading His Last Command, I've reasoned that theres 2 kinds of Guard, veterans and recruits, both are differant.

So I've brought up a new bravery list (For Imperial forces anyway):
Imperial Guard Veterans
Space Marines
Imperial Guards New Regiments.

Axel
27-12-2006, 19:08
Ok, the guardsman is against a 8 foot tall Terminator, but the space Marine is up against a 18 foot tall Bloodthirster.

If Space Marines would be the only one going against that 18' tall Bloodthirsters, it would be true. But, as circumstances (and a lack of Space Marines) dictate, you will find guardsmen everywhere in the universe, fighting whoever comes and wherever they are sent, including those Bloodthirsters.

This is not a threat on "Space Marines are best - yes / no / yes / no...". We know that Space Marines are the best. Thats the very reason why they don`t have to be the bravest.

WarWolf
27-12-2006, 20:21
On a minor note, this seems to be another "Marines are the best" "No their not!" type of thread...

:rolleyes: I have same filling... Yes, we all know - Marines are "the" best ;) Well, thats way they exist, to protect "not so brave ones".

Gensuke626
28-12-2006, 22:27
I'm still on Page 2, and I don't know if anyone said this already, but the bravest fighters in the 40k universe are...
The Grots of the Gretchin Revolutionary Komitee!

Sure, they don't exist anymore since angelis was turned into a tomb world, but you have to admit, a grot (Which is physically and mentally inferior to a human) having to fight an Ork is a risky prospect, even 2 or 3 grots is riskying it, but to gather a handful of grots at best and to throw them against the Diggas, the Muties, The Gorkers and The Morkers, that takes true guts. They are like Imperial Guard Freedom Fighters in a galaxy filled to the brim with Chaos Space Marines. They have a cause, they believe in it, and they fight for it despite the fact that the ONLY advantage they have is numbers, and usually even that isn't enough.

BodhiTree
28-12-2006, 22:53
11 pages is a bit much to read for this kind of poll, but while I won't deny that the Guard are brave, I think the Grey Knights have a pretty strong case. At least, I got that feeling after reading the DH Codex.

Justicar_Freezer
28-12-2006, 23:14
I voted other because I believe the Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus are the bravest soldiers in the universe. These men and women are humans who have been taught the horrors of the warp and have decided to take up the mantle of defender. They may have access to the best equipment in the galaxy but they need it to do their jobs. Every day they hunt down those trafficing with demons, the ones who've fallen from the light of the emperor and most importantly the true horrors of the warp, the demons.
They do this for the protection of humanity not because they have a commissar pointing a bolt pistol at their head or some psycho-conditioning to force them to.

Grubnar
29-12-2006, 09:20
I voted for the Tau. But only since I can not select the Imperial Guard also.

As many have already said, I do not think that any of the other options CAN be brave, they are either fearless, insane, stupid or just do not care about anything.

To me the Tau are very brave indeed, because they are just a tiny spark in a very dark galaxy, yet they go on undaunted. They fight, not because they hate what is in front of them but because they love what is behind them.

Grubnar
29-12-2006, 09:22
I'm still on Page 2, and I don't know if anyone said this already, but the bravest fighters in the 40k universe are...
The Grots of the Gretchin Revolutionary Komitee!

Sure, they don't exist anymore since angelis was turned into a tomb world, but you have to admit, a grot (Which is physically and mentally inferior to a human) having to fight an Ork is a risky prospect, even 2 or 3 grots is riskying it, but to gather a handful of grots at best and to throw them against the Diggas, the Muties, The Gorkers and The Morkers, that takes true guts. They are like Imperial Guard Freedom Fighters in a galaxy filled to the brim with Chaos Space Marines. They have a cause, they believe in it, and they fight for it despite the fact that the ONLY advantage they have is numbers, and usually even that isn't enough.
Hmm, yes, da grots. Good point! How could I forget the little runts...

insectum7
29-12-2006, 14:56
If Space Marines would be the only one going against that 18' tall Bloodthirsters, it would be true. But, as circumstances (and a lack of Space Marines) dictate, you will find guardsmen everywhere in the universe, fighting whoever comes and wherever they are sent, including those Bloodthirsters.


You will also find guardsmen everywhere in the universe, running from whomever begins cutting down their squads, and being butchered by the bushel because they put self preservation over the protection of their fellow soldier in a time of need.

Daemon king Mad Dog
29-12-2006, 17:30
Guard Arn't Stupid or cowards, if a bloodthister turned up, a guardsman would have enough time to run away any way so :P

hiveminion
29-12-2006, 18:33
Guard Arn't Stupid or cowards, if a bloodthister turned up, a guardsman would have enough time to run away any way so :P

Yup, run away, straight into the arms of the Commisar standing two feet behind him. He probably has just enough time to say "oh" before he's executed. Of course, the Guard who had thought of this would duke it out with the Thirster (or shoot the Commisar:p ).

Gensuke626
29-12-2006, 18:39
Yup, run away, straight into the arms of the Commisar standing two feet behind him. He probably has just enough time to say "oh" before he's executed. Of course, the Guard who had thought of this would duke it out with the Thirster (or shoot the Commisar:p ).

Not every Commissar is suicidal. There are probably quite a few who, upon seeing a bloodthirster, would order a tactical withdrawl.

Daemon king Mad Dog
29-12-2006, 18:54
All thats irrelevant cus they'd both get squished by the 'thrister!

Nebuchadnezzar
29-12-2006, 19:04
imperial guard

it takes courage to fight against the horrors of the universe armed only with a flashlight ^^

Lord Merlin
29-12-2006, 19:37
traitor guardsmen, They not only have IG qualities but they fight space-marines and other guardsmen

hoobajoo
29-12-2006, 20:05
Space Marines. Guard are brave, sure, but it doesn't take much courage to fight when you know you'll be killed for retreating by a Commissar. Once the Commissar is dead, the IG flee like anyone else. And often Guard will outnumber the enemy, which is a powerful psychological advantage. Space Marines are much fewer in number, will never retreat, and will fight on if caught by a sweeping advance rather than despairing and getting killed.

There is a reason they call the rule 'And They Shall Know No Fear'.

Daemon king Mad Dog
29-12-2006, 20:33
hoobajoo, have you even read the arguements? If you had then you would have noticed that space marines are losing the bravery battle, as we have rendered the and they shall know no fear rule some thing bad for bravery, bravery is overcoming fear, and not all guard regiments have commissars! commissars asren't everywhere! theres got to be at least one place that doesn't have a commissar driuving it on! And commissars main job is to inspire the troops, hard to do when your've shot them! Inspire then shoot thats their main motto!

Vaktathi
29-12-2006, 20:42
One thing that people are constantly throwing out about the IG is the Commissar.

Not every force has a Commissar, nor every regiment. Are these troops any less effective for it? Fluff-wise, we don't really know, game wise, a Commissar wont make or break a force, and there are plenty of other ways to get units that wont break and run (chem inhalers, regimental standard, COO, etc...)

AngryAngel
30-12-2006, 06:13
The space marines are losing the barvery battle not on basis of the actual definition of bravery. It wouldn't matter what someone said to back them, or even if someone came up with a smoking gun of fluff saying they did indeed feel fear. Neither side is going to change their stance. Such however is opinion for you, neither side is wrong.

Like the space marines themselves, the supporters of their bravery are outnumberd here. It's just more acceptable to support guard over marines. So you just say what you want to say hoobajoo. Your opinion is as valid as any of ours.

Daemon king Mad Dog
30-12-2006, 10:39
Angry, I was really ****** off when i wrote that, sorry if i appeared rude!

It's just that we have proved that wrong, or at least i think we have, but the annoying thing is we ahve 2 definitions of bravery :(

hoobajoo
30-12-2006, 11:34
hoobajoo, have you even read the arguements? If you had then you would have noticed that space marines are losing the bravery battle, as we have rendered the and they shall know no fear rule some thing bad for bravery, bravery is overcoming fear, and not all guard regiments have commissars! commissars asren't everywhere! theres got to be at least one place that doesn't have a commissar driuving it on! And commissars main job is to inspire the troops, hard to do when your've shot them! Inspire then shoot thats their main motto!

Democracy is not an argument. If bravery is overcoming fear, than Space Marines have forever overcome fear as a result of their intense physical and mental training. They confront terrifying odds on the battlefield every day of every campaign, yet they never flinch or shy from their duty. If that isn't bravery, I don't know what is.

hiveminion
30-12-2006, 12:40
Democracy is not an argument. If bravery is overcoming fear, than Space Marines have forever overcome fear as a result of their intense physical and mental training. They confront terrifying odds on the battlefield every day of every campaign, yet they never flinch or shy from their duty. If that isn't bravery, I don't know what is.

In that case it's not bravery, it's routine.

It could be argued that Space Marine Scouts are the bravest, untill they get all their fears washed out of their heads...

hoobajoo
30-12-2006, 20:37
In that case it's not bravery, it's routine.

What's so strange about routine bravery? I mean, you can't say Space Marines are less brave because bravery and valor are routine for them. That's like saying you're less brave for being brave all the time.

MrBigMr
30-12-2006, 20:48
What's so strange about routine bravery? I mean, you can't say Space Marines are less brave because bravery and valor are routine for them. That's like saying you're less brave for being brave all the time.
Ok, lets say you've never swam before. You're afraid of water. Almost irrationally. All the other kids swim all the time, but you've never do it. So, one day you decide to do it. Learn to swim.
So, who is braver? You for conquering your fear of water? Or the other kids that swim all the time and never had a problem with it. Bravery is doing something that scares you.

Gensuke626
30-12-2006, 21:12
What's so strange about routine bravery? I mean, you can't say Space Marines are less brave because bravery and valor are routine for them. That's like saying you're less brave for being brave all the time.

Technically, you would be less brave for being brave all the time. It happens in one of two ways.

One is as MrBigMr described. If you're always doing something then it's not really bravery. I mean, you don't get frightened everytime you use a toilet do you?

on the other hand if you truely are constantly overcoming fear, then you must have alot to fear. To be brave you must do something that over comes a fear. If you are constantly overcoming a fear, then you must logically be constantly afraid. If you are constantly afraid then by a more pop culture definition, you are a coward.

Daemon king Mad Dog
30-12-2006, 21:48
I'm very confused...

MrBigMr
30-12-2006, 22:44
I'm very confused...
To put it simple, you need to be afraid to be brave. A marine is not afraid of anything and as such isn't realy brave per se. Sure, we might look at them and go "d00d, he brave. He do crazy shht". But a marine won't see it like that. He's just doing his job.

AngryAngel
31-12-2006, 07:09
@Mad Dog don't worry about it man. I can see being pissed about something. I just didn't want to see someone shouted down for voicing their opinion.

In response to the thread in generall however, A marine doesn't have to see himself as brave. He can do something routine but if it is really brave, its still really brave. Who is to say another person won't view it and be like.."Did you see that ?..that was the bravest thing I've ever seen." Or can you now only be brave if you view yourself as brave ?

As for marines being brave, there is some fluff supporting it. I'll put it down now, discount it if you will, its only put out to put proof to it. Aside from the definition.

First, one of the major traits in the codex, is being courageous. In the traits section it has that. Being courageous would show bravery.

Second, while in the scout company, they have to prove their courage as well as their skills, to advance as a true battle brother.

Third, their veterans are made of their bravest and most heroic. The only way in fact you get promoted to the first company without truely paying your dues said to be acts of truely exceptional courage.

Just because you might not notice how brave you are, doesn't mean your not.

elvinltl
31-12-2006, 08:02
Imperial Guards arn't even brave. Without their paltry leader, they are a bunch of cowards fleeing at mere sights of holograms and illusions.

hoobajoo
31-12-2006, 10:33
The real disagreement here is whether bravery is a state of mind, or a facet of actions. If bravery is feeling fear, and not acting on it, then Space Marines may or may not be brave. We have no way of knowing whether things scare Marines but their steel nerves and iron will keeps them cool, or they just don't feel fear at all. Since we can't jump into a SM's mind, we can't ever answer that question.

Now, I feel that bravery is a facet of action. If someone acts against tremendous odds or fights on despite injury, that is bravery. And if bravery is in one's physical actions, rather than mental ones, then Space Marines are brave all the time.

So I stand by my view that bravery is a physical thing, and you may stand by a more psycological view of it. I think in both respects Marines are amazingly brave, and so are Guard. But I do disagree with this notion that if someone is brave all the time, they are somehow less brave for being so frequently brave. That's a flat-out logical paradox, since it would mean that the less you act brave, the more brave you are. Which is plain silly.

hiveminion
31-12-2006, 11:26
@Mad Dog don't worry about it man. I can see being pissed about something. I just didn't want to see someone shouted down for voicing their opinion.



In that case you SEEM to be brave. Someone else is comparing the things you do to what he'd do.
To BE brave you must overcome your fears, which Marines do not have. During their training, they get hypno-stimulans-training-whatever to suck out their fears. That's why I said perhaps Scouts are the bravest, at least the ones that don't fail their training. They must overcome all their primal fears before getting the remainder flushed out of them.

I still voted Guard though. Not Guard in general, but the platoons that have acted courageously, which are many, undoubtadly. Can you imagine living in that hostile universe, fighting unmentionable horrors? The fact Guard do it is testimony of their bravery.
Heck, if our soldiers would be warped to that time they'd be Ld-10...

Stormhammers
31-12-2006, 16:07
IG by far, they fight with flashlights and jackets while marines have mini-bazookas and encased in a body-fitted tank. The nids, orks and crons are pretty much combatants by nature, the eldar are too cautious and tau hide behind superior technology, and the IG is there, holding the line.

Dakkagor
31-12-2006, 16:47
I wouldn't say the tau are uncouragous for fighting with advanced tech. Thats common sense, when your going to a gun fight, you take the best gun possible. Considering that behind all their technology, they are weaker than guardsmen, you have to think that taking the field for the tau is quite brave

Grimbad
31-12-2006, 17:57
IG fight because they must and if they don't thier race will die out.
Marines fight because they've been brainwashed since puberty.
Necrons (and marines for that matter) rarely (as in the medusa necron ending) feel fear if ever and without fear there is no courage.
Eldar fight for similar reasons to the guard as i understand.
Dark eldar fight because they're insane and there's a chaos god breathing down thier necks.
Orks fight for fun and glory.
Tyranids fight because they are mindless tools.
Tau fight because they are brainwashed since birth.
Chaos marines fight because they were brainwashed since puberty and know it.

IG wins in my mind.

Light of the Emperor
31-12-2006, 21:32
Its defiantely the guard, echoed by 230+ votes.
The sheer courage of humanity against the xenos, the mutant and the heretic.
Of course, it can be argued that the guard would be less brave if there wasn't a commissar constantly breathing down their necks...

Gensuke626
31-12-2006, 21:58
Its defiantely the guard, echoed by 230+ votes.
The sheer courage of humanity against the xenos, the mutant and the heretic.
Of course, it can be argued that the guard would be less brave if there wasn't a commissar constantly breathing down their necks...

Not every army has commissars. Not every Commissar breaths down the neck of their troops. (I wanted to do a Guard army where the Commissars Inspired their Troops by example. They're the first into the fray and the last to leave.)

legio mortis
01-01-2007, 05:52
Not every Commissar breaths down the neck of their troops. (I wanted to do a Guard army where the Commissars Inspired their Troops by example. They're the first into the fray and the last to leave.)
This is the way that Commissars really do lead, IMO. If all they did was sit in the back and shoot their own troops in the back, they'd get fragged pretty damn quick.

AngryAngel
01-01-2007, 08:01
I've stated my points, stated definitions to support it, and stated fluff refrences to support it. People can read, vote and decide for themselves, and though guards may be higher for now. If the discussion and points swayed anyone to the marines side, thats all I could ask for.