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ReveredChaplainDrake
23-12-2006, 01:32
I've been playing 40k for nearly a decade now, and that I'm pretty good at. But when it comes to Fantasy, I just can't put my finger down on the winning formula. Movement is easy to stifle and hard to fix. Magic is high on cost, low on punch, and utterly inconsistent on a game-to-game basis, yet an army that eschews it entirely gets picked to pieces. Combat is easy to avoid, hard to win, and rewards the lucky. (And extremely large Unbreakable units that cause Fear, hint hint.) Even the mightiest Bloodthirster, strongest Dragon, and even the most elitist Knight unit can be indignifiably dragged down by measely little Goblins just because there happened to be 40 of 'em in the flank.

What's the trick to it? In 40k, it's all about deployment and target selection, which is what I assume means something pretty important in Fantasy too.

If it helps, here's the contents of my Lizardmen collection, and how I usually use them. What kind of army should I do with all of this?

-Slann Mage Priest: my magical insurance policy against knight-heavy armies. With four spells from the Lore of Metal, I can hit that Spirit of the Forge pretty often, but most often I stick with the Lore of Fire until I get Firey Blast (my favorite; no fancies, just damage) or Flaming Sword of Rhuin (when I dump it for Fireball and go on to a different Lore). Unfortunately, even when I do get the Spirit of the Forge (which isn't guaranteed), the opponent just throws up two Dispel Scrolls, stalling just long enough for those huge Knight units to hit combat. By then, my Slann is too late to pay back his enormous points cost in any simple way.

-Oldblood on Carnosaur: I love this guy under 7th ed's monster rules, and the model is just plain awesome, but I dislike how his resilience isn't all that good for a model that takes up 25% of my army. I usually send him hunting after the largest thing in the enemy's army to maximize the use of the Ultimate Predator rules on the Carnosaur.

-Scar vet on Cold One: Just in case. I rarely use him anymore now that I have a JSoD and that Cavalry-mounted models now suck.

-JSoD w/ Great Weapon: What's the point of a JSoD having the speed to smash chariots if he doesn't have Str7 to do it with? I usually go light on all but the cheapest armor (light armor & mundane shield), trusting for the manouverability of an 18" march to keep me out of harm's way.

-2x Skink Heroes (Priests / Chiefs): I usually just take the Scroll Caddy, but I require a hero that can be taken in a below-2000 pts list that is still competent for not spending a fortune on him.

-54 Saurus Warriors (3x Full Commands, all hand weapons & shields): No spears, and no Sacred Spawnings. I've found all of those extras to be useless. In fact, Saurus blocks aren't really all that powerful when you're dumping 270 pts into 'em to get a bunch of highly expensive models that lose first attack to Dwarves and Undead.

-20 Skinks (half javelins, half blowpipes, not including handlers): I usually scout them forward to impede the enemy's marches and spray 'em down with mobile firepower. I prefer Javelins to Blowpipes because you can keep your distance, you get some kind of save (in 40k, they think a 6+ is weak IV on my Hive Tyrant too...), and you can move and fire without penalty, which helps when you're always on the go trying to keep out of LoS. Skinks are far too frail to be used as shields. But I love using 'em as harassment, though they're admittedly not as good at dishing out pain as the Saurus are.

-3 Kroxigors: The great thing about Kroxes is how good they are against foot blocks. Because they have plenty of wounds each, even on the charge an enemy footblock (except Ogres, Lizards, and Chosen) is not that likely to kill even one Krox before I get to swing. Unfortunately, they're not that speedy with the whole march inhibition stunt so they can get gunned down pretty easily.

-16 Sarus Cav (2x Full Commands, HBT): Obviously speaking, I don't use all 16 at once. In fact, lately, I've been taking a liking to using units of five. Minimal expense, but just enough punch to matter. Remind me please, where again does it say that I only get one Huanchi's Blessed Totem / army?

-5 Terradons: I had this problem with Tyranid Gargoyles. The one unit that might make the difference in my games is the unit that I have no possible way to transport without them physically falling apart. I've seen Terradons single-wingedly run roughshod through people's entire armies, so it's no secret that my big one-size-whoops-all list will have some of these.

-Stegadon: I have yet to use the big boy thus far, but I forsee it being a huge hitter, second only to the Carnosaur-mounted Oldblood. And with such a small cost for a unit this destructive (and tough), where do I sign?

-2x Salamanders (w/ 6x handlers): I find three Sallies is the quickest road to massive amounts of misfires and Skink munching, and Skinks die easily enough without my help. But as one is obviously useless, two is the happy medium that I've found.

Mephistofeles
23-12-2006, 09:36
Well, movement, outmanouvering and combat resolution is the key to this game, regardless of what you play (unless you play a gunline...)

If you manage to get flank-chargers into your enemies units, or manage to attack them with enormous numbers or something similar, then you have victory within your grasp.

In this game, you can't rely as much on awesome characters as I feel you can do in 40k. This game has ranks, flanks, outnumbering, standards and all that, meaning that just doing wounds doesn't really matter that much. I can't really agree that combat in Fantasy rewards the lucky, since the unit with the most static combat resolution usually has the easiest time to win combats. In 40k, only wounds (and the occasional Item) decides who wins combats, but here it's more "realistic" if I may say so.

Then remember, just because you loose a combat one turn, you don't neccesarily loose the whole fight. Here is where you really can be a good general, in that you have managed to keep your general close so that they may use his leadership, and bought a Battle Standard Bearer so that they can re-roll their break test. And since you play lizardmen, you are nigh unbreakable anyway...

Hope I managed to answer all your questions at least a litte bit, and that I didn't step on anyones woes.

ReveredChaplainDrake
23-12-2006, 15:44
Lizards seem to have a weird system for their BSB. Unless the BSB is a Slann, the BSB must be carried by a Scar-veteran that is not the army's general, which means my Skinks need to be babysat by two Saurus heroes, the BSB and the General, and being Carnosaur-mounted, my General has more important things to do. Even more annoying is that you can't give a Scar-Vet BSB any non-magical weapons (except the base hand weapon). I usually make my Scar-Vet the JSoD because my Oldblood has the Carnosaur, and the JSoD just has to have the Great Weapon. The Sword of Might is cool and all, but str7 over str6 is invaluable against Chariots and Knights. But I can't give the JSoD a Great Weapon if he's the BSB. I was under the assumption that all other armies got to make their General the BSB, which allowed the overlapping of both the General's rules and the BSB's rules.

Is that why so many people love the Slann? Because the only tactical reason I'm seeing for people getting Slanns are to (1) suck fire, (2) have their General and BSB as the same Cold-Blooded Ld9 model, and (3) to take a unit of Temple Guard.

Bretonnian Lord
23-12-2006, 16:04
My friend and I have played Warhammer for several years now, and he plays Lizardmen, while I have my Bretonnians :) . I'm not trying to make myself out as an expert on Lizardmen (I'm not) so take my advice with a grain of salt. However, these are some of the general tips I've learned from fighting my friend's Lizardmen:

-Slann Mage Priest: My friend plays a Lizardmen army and never takes his Slann Mage Priest in battles under 3,000 points. In 2,000 point battles, the Slann takes up too many points to be effective. Whenever my friend does field a Slann, he usually gets the Comet of Cassandora, and maximizes on damage causing spells.

-JSoD w/ Great Weapon: Even if you can't smash chariots, the JSoD is still incredibly useful, especially if you max out his killing abilities. 18 inch charge range means he is excellent at striking at unprotected flanks and rears (+1 or +2 combat resolution, which is always helpful). JSoD is best used in conjunction with ranked Saurus infantry against Knights, whose armor save won't save them against the JSoD's massive strength, and because they are low in number compared to the Saurus infantry, will break very easily.

-2x Skink Heroes (Priests / Chiefs): Usually, the Lizardmen will be taking the offensive in the magic phase, so concentrate more on items that will help you get your magic spells out. I don't know how effective the Chief is, but Skink Priests are pretty good, especially if they can get spells like the Comet.

-54 Saurus Warriors: High strength and toughness (For basic rank and file infantry) combined with the cold blooded rule, make these almost impossible to run from combat. Expensive, but good infantry in a battle of attrition.

-20 Skinks: In my experience fighting Skinks, they don't do much except act as speed bumps for my Knights. If you are fighting a high armor save army, I would suggest losing the Skinks and spending more points on Saurus.

-3 Kroxigors: Kroxigors are amazing. Just give them ample protection and shield them from enemy troops, and they should earn their points back every time, especially against Knight heavy armies.

-16 Sarus Cav (2x Full Commands, HBT): Saurus Cavalry are best used in smaller units like you are currently doing, to get flank charges and rear charges on the enemy. Let the Saurus blocks absorb the enemy's charges, then just send the Cavalry smashing into your opponent's flanks. Also, you cannot take more than one of the same magic item per army, which means you can only take one Huanchi's Banner.

-Stegadon: My friend uses his Stegadon a lot, but it generally does not earn its points back (at least not against Cavalry heavy armies.) Low leadership, even if it is coldblooded, mean it will readily flee from combat, and its low charge range (compared to cavalry) will mean it never gets the charge. If you want to use a Stegadon, pit it against infantry, not cavalry.

-2x Salamanders (w/ 6x handlers): Good choice.

I hope I was able to give you at least some good advice :)

FatOlaf
23-12-2006, 16:19
-20 Skinks: In my experience fighting Skinks, they don't do much except act as speed bumps for my Knights. If you are fighting a high armor save army, I would suggest losing the Skinks and spending more points on Saurus.


I disagree, some of my best Victories with LM have come against high armoured armies such as Bret and Khorne. This with the aid of 30-40 skinks.
They hate them, shame 7th Ed nerfed the skirmisher always march rule but with careful movement it still works.
Skinks are so much more than speed bumps, in fact if they are getting them in CC at all, you are not using them properly.
Make them scouts, get them far up the field or behind enemy lines, saty out of LOS but as close as poss, march block all the way.
And then even in a small unit of 10 - 12 you will have 20-24 poison blowpipe attacks a turn, you will roll sixes, they will fail some armour tests, and you will generally annow the hell out of any Bret or Chaos general when he loses some grail knights/ chosen knights to a 6-7 point skink.
They along with Sallies are the greatest assett of a LM's arsenal, use them wisely and they will win you games often.

This is why so many people find skink armies 'cheesy' etc ;)

My greatest ever use of a skink was when my unit of 12 rolled 22 6's and took out a whole unit of 20 Marauders in one go, hilarious :D

Mephistofeles
23-12-2006, 18:02
All armies have the same system for their BSB, the BSB can't be the general, since it would make him somewhat too good for some armies, and fluffwise it would be terrible.