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JackSmithIV
24-12-2006, 04:25
(Note: Not in the army list forum because it's more questions about army building and character tactics)

Hello hello!

I'm pretty new to the forums, and this is my first thread of my own, so please feel free to critisize if I'm doing something like asking too many questions

So I picked up my Empire army box, and I won 3 of my first games of fantasy in a row of 1000 point games. Lovin' the army, great potential for great performance. Being a 40k player for a long time though has made me quite the newbie when in comes to certain basic army-building techniques.

Thusfar I've got a pretty balanced list in the works that includes the following(the following is my list minus the characters):

2 units of 20 swordsmen with detachments of 5 gunners and 10 halberds each
10 Crossbows
11 Inner Circle Knights
5 Pistoleers and 5 Outriders
Great Cannon
Steam Tank

Now, the one thing I'm not sure about yet is the characters. I intend to include 1 wizard, Bright, with 2 dispel scrolls and level 2 casting. My only problem is my BSB, Captains, or Generals. First of all, I'm not sure when it's appropriate to mount them, and second of all I don't know how to place them (I've heard, however, that it is unquestionable in the new addition to keep them outside of a unit, because they will be cut down quickly).

For my army standard bearer, I tried putting him in a unit of the Swordsman, and it worked at 1000 points. He was on foot, which I believe is the right choice, but then again, what do I know as of now. Also, I'm not sure if I should give him a magic standard. Not seeing which ones might be worth points investment as of now, because I'm trying to conserve.

Then there's my Lord choice. I keep hearing mixed opinions between whether to put his hit-power and mobile leadership on a mount with the knights, or to put him in the other unit of swordsmen and centralize his leadership. I could put a Captain in one role and my General in the other, but what's the right call? And what kind of magic items would fit each role?

Aww hell, so many questions. If anyone has any insight, I would so much appreciate it. Thanks again!

-IV

Jhayden
24-12-2006, 05:04
Dear Jack Smith,

Hi.


Sincerely John Martinez.


PS, I whooped your butt in fantasy. Huzzah!


Anyway, to make my post useful, let me make a few suggestions.

Your unit of knights is too big. One casualty and you lose your rank bonus, making those extra guys towards the back kind of useless if you're trying to get a good charge off. What I would do is decrease the unit size to 4 and place your mounted, barded lord in there. Give him a lance, shield, full plate and possibly a runefang and he should be fine. If you want to stick with a large group of knights turn your lord into a Standard Bearer and give him something like the griffon banner.

For your second hero take a mage, at least level 1 (if so then just give him 2 dispel scrolls and keep him towards the back). Should you level him up, slide him into a unit of crossbowmen so he doesn't get shot off the board. I don't know the new magic items Empire has off the top of my head, but im sure you can find something that will either give him more power dice or a higher chance to dispel.

Turn one unit of swordsmen into spearmen. The extra rank of attack is great and they can still sport shields. Everything else is fine although I would probably get rid of the steam tank. Mainly because I don't like it.

Tate
24-12-2006, 05:29
Hey there and welcome to Empire. I just started them as well and I absolutly love them, I havent been this excited for an army in a long time. My list is floating around here somewhere, check that out if you like. I also posted a fairly long tactica on the War Alter, my new favorite unit.

So back to characters. Empire is low leadership and as such it is generally considered extremely important to have your general's LD 9 central to provide the bonus to as many units as possible. You could, however, take an alternate route and take the immune to panic banner, a grand master, icon of magnus, or other selections that help you roll less leadership checks. A BSB helps greatly here, especially rerolling Greatswords, and I think its nearly required.

So we have wizards. You said you want one scroll caddy. Thats good, but with only 4 power dice you wont get any spells off. Either save 35 pts for the L2 upgrade, get another wizard at L2 (maybe with the rod of power), or add 1-2 warrior priests and/or the arch lector (possibly with the war alter). This would either allow you to go purely defensive or it would boost your offensive power up to an acceptable level.

Warrior priests in the new book are awesome. Hatred on a unit of greatswords and an extra dispel dice is great for 96 pts (hvy armor/shield). I really love the arch lector (especially on the alter) because it adds lots of defense and even more offence. The alter is also unbreakable (even less dice for you to roll) and as a chariot it adds some much needed punch to an army that depends on artillery, knights, or the Stank to bust skulls. I love em, but they arent for everyone. I recomend taking one just for the flavor, variety, and dispel dice.

Captains and Generals are decent fighters but they are cheap which is nice. I recomend mounting any character you can because of the extra armor save and space in the unit (adds US for outnumber and ranks). If you run a BSB on foot, definatly consider the Armor of Meteoric Iron as you want him to stay alive. A magic sword (of might) is also really nice. I'm not a fan of any of the banners because they mean you cant take any other defensive items or magic weapons. Put a ward save (holy relic is the best IMO) on your general (even if he isnt a "general") because you really want him to live.

In terms of positioning, put them in units of course. This adds to the units combat potential and also shields the character from shooting. Spread your characters out beween multiple units so that each unit becomes a threat and you dont fall into the all eggs in one basket approach. A grand master for your IC knights would be very cool (especially with the laurels of victory) but it makes that one unit a major target. The unit would do fine with just a simple lance armed captain or even just a 12th trooper.

Try to make your units 25 strong as well, as it really helps in the ranks/outnumber department which is how you will win combats. 25 warm bodies with a captain is very effective and still nice and cheap.

If you are set in your list then fine, it looks good (not my style, but it seems very effective). I would try to add more support units, but again thats just me. A pegasus captain could be lots of fun to play with, maybe try that out for some variety.

Good luck, and I hope I havent rambled to much.

vorac
25-12-2006, 01:29
you could divide the knights into 2 units, add in some greatswords, i'd add an Empire General with defensive magic items, a Captain also defensive who could be a bsb with the armour of meteoric iron, a warrior priest for the hatred or a second wizard.

Warp Zero
27-12-2006, 08:13
Hello. I know JackSmithIV is the original thread starter. I don't mean to intrude on the discussion. However, I didn't want to start another thread and my question is of similar nature.

I too am a recent starter of an Empire Army. I just bought the box set that comes with the rules. However, I'm a complete newbie to Fantasy. Having only played 40k so far, this is my first foray into Warhammer Fantasy. I'm quite excited to get started. I had started this thread (link: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61240). After the responses I decide on Empire. Heh heh weird eh?

Here's the thing. From the box set, what should I be making? What should I do with my 20 State Troops, 20 Handgunners and 10 Pistoliers? Make 10 Swordsman and 10 Halberdiers? Or just 20 Swordsman? Or 20 Halbardiers? If so...pay extra points to give them shields too? I don't know what effect that has on the game.... However, the thing I don't want to do is, build, glue, and paint a bunch of models only to find out later that I should've built them with shields...or built them as Swordsman instead of Halberdiers....or Crossbowmen instead of Handgunners.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. :D


Oh...and, if its not too off topic...what colors should I paint 'em? I haven't read all the fluff yet. Just the bought the box. But I like matching the fluff if I can, trying to figure out which Province would be cool. Or how frowned upon it is to create a non-established Province color scheme. So far I like the black and red of Nuln. Ostermark looks interesting too. Says they often work with Kislevites....I saw those models on the shelf too. Is that an extra allied unit you can add to Empire or something?

Again, thanks.

Kensai X
27-12-2006, 17:31
Well, personally I would only use Halbediers as a detachment and if you do that it doesn't hurt to throw on some shields. So with your first state troops I would make swordsmen. Also handguns usually do alot more than crossbows because of the armor piercing and before you ask, I'd recomend giving the champ a repeater.

On the army, I'd split the IC unit down to 7 and give it a priest. Also if you want to do more of a Nuln theme I'd drop either the Outriders or the pistoliers and pick up another great cannon. (BTW I'd keep Pistoliers if you do drop one of them, Outriders look great on paper, but their hard to keep)

Also if you want fluff here's a good link.

http://www.warhammer-empire.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,74/topic,4416.0

AUN'SHI
27-12-2006, 21:49
I don't think you can take a lord in a 1000pt game. your army seems pretty good.

Character go with a wizard and a mounted hero thats should be fine for 1000 pts. There isnt to much that can hurt ur tank in 1000 pts.

The Blue Knight
27-12-2006, 22:05
Also handguns usually do alot more than crossbows because of the armor piercing and before you ask, I'd recomend giving the champ a repeater.


kensai - any particular reason why you say Repeater (Rifle?) over the Hochland Longrifle? I must ask as I, like so many others here, am starting a new Empire Army. Thanks.

Warp Zero
27-12-2006, 23:25
Well, personally I would only use Halbediers as a detachment and if you do that it doesn't hurt to throw on some shields. So with your first state troops I would make swordsmen. Also handguns usually do alot more than crossbows because of the armor piercing and before you ask, I'd recomend giving the champ a repeater.


Thanks Kensai for the advice. (thanks for the link too!) Last night I couldn't wait any longer and so assembled one Swordsman to test paint a color scheme. Good thing I made him a Swordsman. But, having at least skimmed through the Fantasy rulebook, it sounded like a good idea to have a big core block of swordsmen anyways. But really I was only kind of guessing. But thankfully, your post confirmed it for me that it was indeed a good idea to start off with building them. Later I'll make a detachment of Halberdiers.

After fooling around with the paints, I ending up liking an entirely different color scheme. Instead of trying to match fluff....which I always do, this time I kind of threw that all out the window and just went for whatever I thought looked cool. A maroon and mustard yellow caught my eye and I painted one fig up like that. I really like it. :eek:

Now flipping through my old White Dwarf issues, I find U.S. issue #320. The issue that features the brand new rulebook as well as the skull pass box set. It was the issue that came with one dwarf and one night goblin.

On Page 30 (the article: The Art of Warhammer), there's this big Paul Dainton painting of the Empire fighting Chaos. Hey, what do ya know? They're wearing gold (similar to my mustard yellow) and Crimson (similar to my maroon). I guess, that province is the one I'm doing. Looking in the army book, does that mean that province is Talabecland? Is their symbol/heraldry the Griffon ...or just a regular eagle? By the way, I kind of thought that painting would've been the Empire cover...but it isn't. Hmmm....weird. So far they haven't used it for anything other than article. Oh wait, did they maybe use the art for Namco's Warhammer:Mark of Chaos?

Anyways, what is that big steam engine contraption in the back ground with the huge golden stague of a Griffon on it? (in my mind, the hammer the Griffon has slams down every now and then...then steam and smoke pour out as it gets cranked back up again....) Now I'd love to see that model! If not...maybe I'll scratch build one? Yeah right...anyways even if I did, its not like there are rules for it. It would just be scenery. Although I guess that's pretty cool too.

Giving my handgunner's champ a repeater....that's so they have more shots/chances of killing foes per turn? I assume. The IC Unit? Sorry , dont' have the lingo down yet. IC is short for what?

Thanks again for the advice.

Kensai X
27-12-2006, 23:33
Well, the Hochland while looking good on paper rarely does all that much on the battlefield in small quantities. It almost never kills characters because they have either too good tougness, armor, effects, saves, mounts, or too many wounds to actually do much there. Also it rarely ever manages to kill a warmachine crew in a decent amount of time where other units such as cavarly or Flying Captain could have taken it down already. So I like to give a repeating rifle to my champ so he can fire along with the rest of the rifleman in his unit to help knock down more rank and file which is the ultimate objective of the riflemen anyways.

But the HLR does have some positive points and you might want at least one in a larger army list on a champ to shoot down opposing Champions. Then the HLR finds some uses. If you want to use an HLR to take down enemy warmachine crews then (in larger games mind you) one could have a Master Engineer use both Pigeon Bomb and a HLR to shoot at the crews, and back it up with another HLR on a rifle unit just in case. That could work, but is costly and may not do as well as you'd hope. If all else fails remember that when you fire more shot your bound to hit more than when you shoot less.

Edit: On the IC thing I accidentally had you mixed up with the thread starter. IC btw means Inner Circle knights which have the Str buff. And Just in case if anyone hadn't figured it out HLR stands for Hochland Long Rifle.

Commodus Leitdorf
28-12-2006, 04:35
Well as a rule I never tell people how to make/play their army as I believe everyone should figure it out on their own with their own play style. But as for Hero choices I can give some pointers.

1. If your gonna run a unit of knights that big I say go for a Grand Master as Lord choice (for 2000pts that is). He can shread through units with the right gear.

2. BSB is always a good choice for Empire armies, that reroll is invaluable. How you run him should depend on whether or not you plan on giving him a magic Banner. If you do give him one, give him a mount for the extra armour (as you cant give him any other magic). If not, Armour of Meteoric Iron will keep him alive well enough.

3. Some Magic defense is always useful, lvl 1 wizard with 2 dispel scrolls will keep you safe till atleast turn 4, and by then you should be in combat anyway limiting what spells he can get off.

4. Now the fourth choice, this is personal preferance. I used an Engineer and put him with my Mortar, but now that Warrior priests are much more appealing I'll probably drop him and get me a worshipper of Sigmar. Ultimately this spot is up to what you want. More magic? get a wizard. More fightin power? another captain. so on so forth...

Seeing as you only have one cannon, maybe an Engineer (yes empire players, im saying an engineer) would be good to watch over your only cannon.

in 1000pts I usually run a wizard and a captain, usually with limited gear as i'd prefer to spend my points on more units.

This is just some ideas, hope it helps.