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Eldartank
24-12-2006, 05:53
I was just looking at the Wave Serpent stats (I'm building an Eldar army). The Wave Serpent is actually a full Main Battle Tank in it's own right. Better protected than the Falcon (which itself is well protected, assuming you add all the proper upgrades), fast, and armed with twin-linked Bright Lances on the turret, you have one awesome tank-killing machine that just happens to have a troop-carrying capacity. All this despite the fact that the Wave Serpent is SUPPOSED to be no more than a dedicated transport. Load it with a ten-man (lady?) squad of Howling Banshees (or a squad of Fire Dragons), and you have one heck of a nasty unit. By taking three grav tanks in your Eldar Army, and placing all your troops and ground units in Wave Serpents armed with the twin-linked Bright Lances, you can have one nasty tank army that might rival the Imperial Guard Armored Company.

I guess they weren't kidding when they said the Eldar Wave Serpent is the best transport in the game.....

Velict
24-12-2006, 06:04
I was just looking at the Wave Serpent stats (I'm building an Eldar army). The Wave Serpent is actually a full Main Battle Tank in it's own right. Better protected than the Falcon (which itself is well protected, assuming you add all the proper upgrades), fast, and armed with twin-linked Bright Lances on the turret, you have one awesome tank-killing machine that just happens to have a troop-carrying capacity. All this despite the fact that the Wave Serpent is SUPPOSED to be no more than a dedicated transport. Load it with a ten-man (lady?) squad of Howling Banshees (or a squad of Fire Dragons), and you have one heck of a nasty unit. By taking three grav tanks in your Eldar Army, and placing all your troops and ground units in Wave Serpents armed with the twin-linked Bright Lances, you can have one nasty tank army that might rival the Imperial Guard Armored Company.

I guess they weren't kidding when they said the Eldar Wave Serpent is the best transport in the game.....

It is (relatively) poorly armed in general. It is not a tank in the least bit, it is an APC meant to transport troops and nothing else. It's primary downfall is its weakness; I don't care how fast or armed it may be, it will still die to my Tank Hunting Havocs armed with Autocannons.

It's good, but not amazing. It's weakness comes from the punishing vehicle damage tables in 4th edition. If it is destroyed, say goodbye to your pinned down Banshees.

Misanthrope
24-12-2006, 06:05
And why on earth are we Marines/Chaos stuck with (*&@!ing Rhinos?!?!

Velict
24-12-2006, 06:06
Because the Rhino is an APC, not a tank, or an infantry fighting vehicle. It does its job fairly well; get the marines close enough to shoot.

For game balance reasons as well, its weaker.

Laughingmonk
24-12-2006, 06:17
The wave serpent is very good, but keep in mind the following:

1.) It is very expensive for an entirely non-scoring unit.

2.) The falcon/ prism with holofields still beats it hands down, period, in the defense department. Since the WS cannot have holofields, it must rely on its speed and energy field. The field is good making it AV 13 against lascannons and av14 against railguns, effectively, which is good, but can't really compare rolling lowest on the glancing hits chart...

3.) Yes, a 10 strong aspect squad in a wave serpent is very nasty. It should be, as it will cost 300+ points...

I agree that the wave serpent is the best transport, however, it doesn't really compete with the falcon or the fireprism at the gunship role. Rather, think of it as a dead 'ard transport with gunship capability.

I wouldn't however, replace the falcon's or fire prisms role on the field with that of wave serpents.

I personally would never put bright lances on a wave serpent. way too pricey. Rather, I just use the double shuriken cannon varient. 6 str 6 shots is nothing to sneeze at.

As far as mechanized eldar being effective, yes, I think they are. They will easily turn the game into a flying circus for those who aren't prepared for it.

Colonel_Kreitz
24-12-2006, 06:32
The new Eldar tanks are surprisingly hardy. I was frankly very impressed at their survivability in a recent game. Keep in mind, however, that the base armor value is still quite low and, even though a kill is difficult, repeat crew shaken/crew stunned results will keep the main guns out of action indefinitely. As I said, they're tough to kill, but it turns out they're not tough to disable (which in this case just means to prevent from firing). Oh, and as Laughingmonk says, Bright Lances are pretty freaking expensive anyhow.

As for Rhinos... yes, as Velict says, they're APCs, not IFVs. Compare and contrast the M113 APC with the M2 Bradley. That pretty much sums up the Rhino/Chimera dichotemy (even though, yes, I know, the Chimera really kind of looks like a BMP-1/2).

fwacho
24-12-2006, 08:26
I think of the Wave serpent as a medium tank. I tend to mix my arments around depending ont eh squad it transports. It's harder than the vyper and requires deadicated anti-tnak shooting to bring it down. I'm still not sure wether I want to sacrafice the FA slot for 2-vypers or use a serpent. my vypers die so freaking quick. I've yet to actually have a waveseprent die in battle (inconveiniently imobilized, but not killed) My falcons have been sheer gold... once they make it too the board.

WhatsHisName
24-12-2006, 12:01
YES it is very good at a multi roll purpose in your eldar army but you do pay for it and boy it doesnt come cheap like
145 - wave serpent ( twin brightlance, spirit stones)

and thats what i think is the MINIMUN for a good waveserpent .

martin

Farseer
24-12-2006, 15:05
Its pretty good, they always need 4+ to score a glance (accept for tnak hunters), but the problem is that theres no holofield. now the verctored engine is good, it makes the serpent much more effective.

nightgant98c
25-12-2006, 01:28
They are very good, but I personally think you need pick and choose which squads go in them. They cost too much to put everything in one.

FarseerUshanti
25-12-2006, 02:20
They are great. The only downside to them is that they do not count as a scoring unit for their points. If transports did count as scoring units, they would most likely be the best tank/ transport in the game in my opinion.

Orbital
25-12-2006, 12:16
Armor 12 is considered to be pretty good as far as a vehicle's armor goes.

Being able to move as much as 24" per turn, and 36" with Star Cannons is nothing to laugh at... and just moving over 6" means no penetrating hits.

Two heavy weapons, one of which is twin-linked, is considered pretty darn nice.

Spirit Stones and Vectored Engines give it great resilience to enemy fire and attacks.

Speaking of resilience to attacks, being a skimmer means that CC attackers can only hit it on a 6.

Let's not forget that the energy field, while not always useful, can sometimes take some of the sting out of Rail Guns and Lascannons.

This sounds like a decent tank to me. Not the most powerful tank in the game, but it doesn't have to be in order to get some respect.

Oh, and btw: It can carry 12 infantry models. Almost forgot the part where it's a transport, too.

Kahadras
25-12-2006, 12:36
Oh, and btw: It can carry 12 infantry models. Almost forgot the part where it's a transport, too

I agree. Overall I think its an awesome asset to bring to the table. It can be set up to hunt tanks with a twin linked bright lance or go up against infantry with a twin linked scatter lazer and shuriken cannon and can still carry 12 infantry. IMO its in the running for best armoured vehicle in the game (along with the Falcon, Land raider and Monolith)

Kahadras

evil space marine
25-12-2006, 15:25
Using the wave serpant to hunt tanks is a brill idea especially when the enermy has land raiders.

Orbital
26-12-2006, 02:17
I particualrly like it when the Wave Serpents gang up on a tank. I usually take 3 Serpents in every list (though I don't usually take any Falcons), and I bully all the scariest enemy tanks with them. Very effective and really gives me a lot of control over what dies every turn.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
26-12-2006, 04:15
For all round killyness you can't beat the fire prism. The waveserpent is a great tank but could easily get bogged down in mass troops. the pie plate is a weapon the the eldar have very little of and double team two fire-prisms for some marine killy goodness.

Also the eldar way of fighting doesn't have room for a jack of all trades, you have to give everything a specific role. Stick waveserpents on units that need them but don't mix weapons, if the squad inside is dragons go with a lance but dont stick a lance on a serpent carrying avengers.

Orbital
26-12-2006, 04:25
Your point about the Prism is well-made, but if you compare the Wave Serpent to other tanks you will always find there's something better. Instead, look at it for its own attributes and how it performs on its own sake. Even though other tanks may be better, the Wave Serpent is still a hell of a good attack vehicle.

Brother Antonios
26-12-2006, 04:53
I don't feel the waveserpent is that great? As mentioned the FP and Falcon are both better tanks. And the Falcon is a BETTER transport for Aspect warriors. 6 men in one of the best tanks in the game vs. 12 men in a good tank? No doubt the Waveserpent is a good transport but it is not a "Full Main Battle Tank" the Eldar have no such thing, a Baneblade is a FMBT, when you face one of those you will learn what a tank is ;)

Check out what kind of loadouts most GT winners take with their Eldar armies, you always see more Falcon's and FP's than not.

Orbital
26-12-2006, 09:18
I don't feel the waveserpent is that great? As mentioned the FP and Falcon are both better tanks. And the Falcon is a BETTER transport for Aspect warriors. 6 men in one of the best tanks in the game vs. 12 men in a good tank?There's always going to be a better tank somewhere. Do you like the Predator? The Land Raider is a better tank. Like the Land Raider? The Baneblade is better. Etc. etc. Does that mean the Predator is bad? The same kind of reasoning applies to the Wave Serpent.

I think we may be getting hung up on the word "tank" to some extent; the Wave Serpent, whether it's a "tank" or no, is effective to the extent that it combines good firepower with transport capacity. Sure, a Falcon is harder to take out and represents more firepower, but a 6-man squad doesn't always do the trick. In fact, it rarely does (especially in bigger games).

I wonder: Do you actually play Eldar?


No doubt the Waveserpent is a good transport but it is not a "Full Main Battle Tank" the Eldar have no such thing, a Baneblade is a FMBT, when you face one of those you will learn what a tank is ;) Oh, come on. That's a superheavy, not a basic tank. The Baneblade is an amazing tank, but it's not meant for basic, every day game play. If you're going to take out what might be the most hardcore vehicle in the entire game then, yeah... everything else looks pale by comparison.

In the realm of the basic GW Codices and the vehicles they offer, I have to tell you that Fire Prisms have changed to the extent that if your enemy doesn't respect their presence, he's going to lose everything. There's no way to say that the Eldar don't have a FMBT when you look at the sheer power of this tank (especially when combinining fire).


Check out what kind of loadouts most GT winners take with their Eldar armies, you always see more Falcon's and FP's than not.I don't think we've seen any GT winners with the new codex yet; it's too new. The old codex was different enough that I don't think it's fair to compare, especially because a lot of those GT winners used lists that most people would consider to be the very definition of powergaming. Even so, the Falcon did not appear as often as the all-Vyper or Giant Seer Council armies did.

Gensuke626
26-12-2006, 09:21
Bob Plisskin;1171496']
Also the eldar way of fighting doesn't have room for a jack of all trades, you have to give everything a specific role. Stick waveserpents on units that need them but don't mix weapons, if the squad inside is dragons go with a lance but dont stick a lance on a serpent carrying avengers.

I call false on this claim.

Personally, I feel that having every unit in an eldar army specialize in ONE specific aspect of combat to be...dare I say it?...unwise.

After all, a unit of firedragons in a WS is generally going to get within 6" of an enemy tank to blow it up. If you can't rely on your 4-10 fusion guns to blow the tank up, then what will a bright lance REALLY add to the squad? Not much in my oppinion.

I would whole heartedly agree with your claim if the Serpent counted as part of the squad and had to fire at the same target as the squad, but since it doesn't, you can run up with a double shuriken or a Scatter las WS to take down enemy infantry while the dragons mop up the tank.

Likewise, if you took a BL ws for avengers, you could drop the squad off near an objective and race around the board to harass tanks with your non-scoring vehicles. (To me, non-scoring means expendable)

If you plan on doing an Avenger Alpha Strike (Or whatever you call the Eldar Fish of Fury varient) Then yes you want shuricannons or Scatterlases on the serpent...

Orbital
26-12-2006, 09:29
Gensuke626, you've got a good point in the sense that there's nothing saying a Wave Serpent has to support whatever it's carrying. I think, however, it's a matter of personal style as to whether or not it does. Your comment about the anti-tank power of the Fire Dragons combined with the Bright Lance is a good one. I know however, when we're talking about anti-infantry, there's no such thing as "too many shots", and I would back up my Avengers with Wave Serpent fire.

Your point that the Wave Serpent and the unit it carries being two different units is reasonable, though.

Gensuke626
26-12-2006, 09:44
Finally! Someone who understands me! This is the Best X-mas Ever!

well...day after X-mas...

but yeah...Like I said...

Orbital
26-12-2006, 09:45
*sniff.

I love you, man!

Eldartank
26-12-2006, 21:46
You all made some good responses to my original post. But, whether you agree or disagree with me, you have to admit that the Wave Serpent is one of the few transports that can double as both a troop transport AND an anti-armor platform.
Actually, the Space Marine Razorback could perform that role too, but it isn't nearly as fast or well-protected as the Wave Serpent.

BloodiedSword
26-12-2006, 22:13
The Razorback is generally viewed to be a pretty awful tank. Its lack of any significant armour and the fact that it is not a skimmer make it extremely fragile, and the crippled transport capacity is much more of an issue with Marines.

Most of the time the Marines its meant to be carrying are safer outside than inside, and indeed that's where they stay.

On topic, yes, the Wave Serpent was and still is fantastic. Just never really got the hang of any of the various models they've done and haven't done for it..

The Machine GoD
26-12-2006, 22:45
And why on earth are we Marines/Chaos stuck with (*&@!ing Rhinos?!?!

Land Raider FTW?

Gensuke626
27-12-2006, 11:40
You all made some good responses to my original post. But, whether you agree or disagree with me, you have to admit that the Wave Serpent is one of the few transports that can double as both a troop transport AND an anti-armor platform.
Actually, the Space Marine Razorback could perform that role too, but it isn't nearly as fast or well-protected as the Wave Serpent.

Ahh yes...and here come the absolute statements. Yes, a Wave Serpent CAN, Infact, play double duty as an Anti-Tank platform and as a Troop Transport. But discussing this is, to me, the same as discussing if gasoline can pull double duty as a Fuel source and an Explosive weapon. The short answer is yes.

What we're beginning to get into is the real tricky meat of the issue, mainly, whether or not the Wave Serpent SHOULD play double duty as Transport and Tank Hunter. I say no, because the weapons available to a Serpent at the given prices, for my money, give me alot more pratical use and tactical flexibility if I arm it with Scatter Lasers. More shots usually means more damage, and less of a chance that I'll miss and get no use out of the gun entirely. Get within 24" and crank out 7 S6 shots (4 of which are Twin-linked) from what I consider to be a relatively expendable tank, and I think I've got a nice miracle worker in my midst.

Sarigar
27-12-2006, 11:53
For 145 points, I'm trying out a WS w/ TL Brightlance and Spirit Stones. It is bought as a transport for Eldrad and his Warlock retinue. However, I have no intention of putting them in it. It's main job is to harass enemy armor. This will be for a tourney that will not be using Escalation.

It's not the end all, be all tank, but my opponent can't ignore it either. This also will help keep my other 2 Falcons from gettting shot at.

A Wave Serpent on its' own, not so great; supporting other tanks makes it pretty decent.

Gensuke626
27-12-2006, 12:02
if it works for you...Excellent!

Captain Micha
27-12-2006, 12:28
I'm glad rhinos suck. Imagine rines with something good in the vehicle list other than the land raider or the land speeder. They would be unstopable!


also yes the serpent is nice. However I am not using a serpent in my army.... Yes I know crazy but my harlies do not have the option to be used in em. So in 1500 pt games I have a falcon.

most of my games are 750ers. so after all my build types for a 750 game it adds up to a 1497 pt army. (roughly 250-300 pts of side board in my armies on the 750 scale hehe) however if I were a craftworld nutjob I'd be using serpents!

Gensuke626
27-12-2006, 12:50
I'm glad rhinos suck. Imagine rines with something good in the vehicle list other than the land raider or the land speeder. They would be unstopable!


Perhaps, but perhaps not....Consider this: no marine vehicle is open topped, no marine vehicle with a transport capacity is fast or a skimmer.

I would never give marines a skimming transport, but maybe a fast one. A light vehicle similar to an Ork Trukk, except that they can't assault out of it. So armor 10 all around, +1 to the roll on the damage tables, fast, and armed with a storm bolter with no option for a pintle mount. It'd make marines more mobile, but not unstoppable. Force it into a fast attack slot as a sort of "Rapid Deployment Squad" ala the Ork Trukkaz and Tau Pathfinders (The 5-10 man squad must take the transport) and I'd say you have a nice squad that's not too powerful.

I'd add something else relevant to Serpents, but it's 4 am and I'm finally crashing from a sugar and caffine high...Night folks

Rlyehable
27-12-2006, 13:49
The biggest downside to the Wave Serpent is cost. You can almost get 3 Rhinos or 2 Razorbacks for the same cost.

Captain Micha
27-12-2006, 15:05
actually as a tau player I found the wave serpent to be very good for its pt cost. *I've got both armies both dexes....* and the fish is one of the best transports in the game

guillimansknight
27-12-2006, 18:19
Because the Rhino is an APC, not a tank, or an infantry fighting vehicle. It does its job fairly well; get the marines close enough to shoot.

For game balance reasons as well, its weaker.

thats bull


the rhino is not an apc or a tank


its a deathtrap

and if you dont think so ask yourself this would you rid in one or footslog it in the 41st millenium???

NotElite
27-12-2006, 18:59
I was actually playing with Armybuilder and came up with a 2000 point army with 3 falcons and 2 waveserpents. The serpents look pretty good as far as target saturation goes. 5 of those hulls flying around is impressive, I'm just not sure about the cost vs. buying more troops in that situation.

Marines have drop pods. This kinda fixes the Rhino problem. But yeah, marines should, fluffwise probably have a rhino with great front armor and and assault ramp, like the land raider's. Maybe no weapons and have it cost >100 points. But right now, the only thing on a Rhino chassis worth buying is the sisters of battle missile tank.

Gensuke626
27-12-2006, 19:12
thats bull


the rhino is not an apc or a tank


its a deathtrap

and if you dont think so ask yourself this would you rid in one or footslog it in the 41st millenium???

In the 41st Millenium, Yes, I'd ride in a Rhino. Here is my reasons why.
1. I am Either an Arbite (and tracking down some hive gangers who most likely only have small arms), a Space Marine (And therefore one of the Imperium's finest warriors), a Sister of Battle (And encased in Holy Power Armour like the Marines), or I work for the Inquisition.
2. The Rhino, in the background, isn't as unreliable as in the game. People wouldn't just hop out because a rocket penetrates the hull and scares the crew. It surely isn't only twice as fast as a man on foot. Lascannons aren't everywhere and the terrain of a real world situation would probably provide much greater options on how to get there.
3. If I had a choice between Riding in any transport and walking across a battlefield, I'd rather ride...afterall, technically there's less than a 1/6 chance that the tank dies when a rocket glaces it's hull.


I was actually playing with Armybuilder and came up with a 2000 point army with 3 falcons and 2 waveserpents. The serpents look pretty good as far as target saturation goes. 5 of those hulls flying around is impressive, I'm just not sure about the cost vs. buying more troops in that situation.

Marines have drop pods. This kinda fixes the Rhino problem. But yeah, marines should, fluffwise probably have a rhino with great front armor and and assault ramp, like the land raider's. Maybe no weapons and have it cost >100 points. But right now, the only thing on a Rhino chassis worth buying is the sisters of battle missile tank.
It's really only good if you pull the Serpents for antitroop duties.

I think the problem with marines is that Drop Pods are way too cheap, and that Rhinos are way to expensive...

I think it'd work out if Rhinos were 35-40 points base and the Drop Pod were 50-60 points.

Eldartank
28-12-2006, 00:23
Ahh yes...and here come the absolute statements. Yes, a Wave Serpent CAN, Infact, play double duty as an Anti-Tank platform and as a Troop Transport. But discussing this is, to me, the same as discussing if gasoline can pull double duty as a Fuel source and an Explosive weapon. The short answer is yes.

What we're beginning to get into is the real tricky meat of the issue, mainly, whether or not the Wave Serpent SHOULD play double duty as Transport and Tank Hunter. I say no, because the weapons available to a Serpent at the given prices, for my money, give me alot more pratical use and tactical flexibility if I arm it with Scatter Lasers. More shots usually means more damage, and less of a chance that I'll miss and get no use out of the gun entirely. Get within 24" and crank out 7 S6 shots (4 of which are Twin-linked) from what I consider to be a relatively expendable tank, and I think I've got a nice miracle worker in my midst.


Okay... Your comparing Wave Serpent double duty to "gasoline double duty" is just, well...... I'll just be nice and say you're comparing apples to oranges.

When I stated that the Wave Serpent can be used as both troop transport AND tank hunter, I stated a clear fact. And it is a totally relevant fact.

As for whether or not the Wave Serpent "should" be used for such double duty, that is strictly OPINION, regardless of which side you take on the issue.

As for me, I think EITHER option is equally valid. Arm the Wave serpent with Scatter Lasers (or Shuriken Cannons), and you have an amazing Infantry Fighting Vehicle. Arm the Wave Serpent with Bright Lances (which ARE twin-linked, reducing your chance to miss), and you have a decent platform to use for tank-hunting once you get the unit inside to where you want it.

Granted, I certainly wouldn't take a Wave Serpent IN PLACE OF a Falcon or Fire Prism. But, depending on what kind of troops I'm carrying inside, Bright Lances certainly aren't a bad idea. If I'm carrying Dire Avengers in a Wave Serpent, I'm DEFINITELY arming the Serpent with anti-troop weapons such as scatter lasers, making the whole package an anti-troop unit. My Fire Dragons will go in a serpent armed with bright lances - for tank killing, of course.

;)

Penitent
28-12-2006, 00:56
Granted, I certainly wouldn't take a Wave Serpent IN PLACE OF a Falcon or Fire Prism. But, depending on what kind of troops I'm carrying inside, Bright Lances certainly aren't a bad idea. If I'm carrying Dire Avengers in a Wave Serpent, I'm DEFINITELY arming the Serpent with anti-troop weapons such as scatter lasers, making the whole package an anti-troop unit. My Fire Dragons will go in a serpent armed with bright lances - for tank killing, of course.

;)

If you've got a Wave Serpent full of Fire Dragons, do you really need to back that squad up with another AT shot? I would think anti-infantry would be a better fit, to allow the Dragons some flexibility. The Dragons alone should be able to handle any armor they come across, and if they can't...well, probability has decided to screw you, it seems :)

Same goes for Dire Avengers. I'd equip their Serpent with the AT, so they can deal with unexpected armor in front of them.

Brother Antonios
28-12-2006, 07:56
There's always going to be a better tank somewhere. Do you like the Predator? The Land Raider is a better tank. Like the Land Raider? The Baneblade is better. Etc. etc. Does that mean the Predator is bad? The same kind of reasoning applies to the Wave Serpent.

Yes, compared to the Baneblade the predator is BAD, please explain otherwise?


I think we may be getting hung up on the word "tank"

Yes we should be getting hung up on that word since the OP is saying a wave serpent is an FMBT, you agree? And the subject includes the words "Super Tank".



I wonder: Do you actually play Eldar?


Yes, I just lost a 6000 point game with them yesterday. It may take awhile to get my head around the new codex, or it may be they are not as overpowing against good competition as I first thought. Regardless my opinion is based on playing what is yours based on?


Oh, come on. That's a superheavy, not a basic tank. The Baneblade is an amazing tank, but it's not meant for basic, every day game play. If you're going to take out what might be the most hardcore vehicle in the entire game then, yeah... everything else looks pale by comparison.


You just play with wimps ;) Seriously some people see the Bane more than others.

Eldartank
28-12-2006, 16:56
If you've got a Wave Serpent full of Fire Dragons, do you really need to back that squad up with another AT shot? I would think anti-infantry would be a better fit, to allow the Dragons some flexibility. The Dragons alone should be able to handle any armor they come across, and if they can't...well, probability has decided to screw you, it seems :)

Same goes for Dire Avengers. I'd equip their Serpent with the AT, so they can deal with unexpected armor in front of them.

Actually, I kind of thought about that after making my post. Perhaps it would be a good idea to give the Wave Serpent AT weapons if it is carrying Dire Avengers, and the anti-infantry if carrying Fire Dragons. I'll have to think about that whenn I get my whole Eldar army painted up. My army will have two Wave Serpents (and one of them is equipped to have the old Forge World wave serpent turrets, and I have several, which can be easily swapped at any time).

Nebėhr Gudahtt
28-12-2006, 17:40
I'll probably field at least one, and I think I'm giving it bright lances. Eldar are now sorely lacking in long range anti-tank; too many BS3 units, and in some cases scatter lasers just can't cut it. Also, where else would you put bright lances? In my opinion the Serpent and the Wraithlord are the only viable choices. The Falcon already has a main weapon, Guardians are BS3, Walkers are too fragile for such an expensive weapon. I don't want to have to rely on a couple of missile launchers and 12" range guns to deal with AV14 battletanks pounding me from turn 1.

Locke
28-12-2006, 20:51
i thought that the tank hunter ability was cancelled by the serpents energy field... Im pretty sure of it in fact...

Gensuke626
28-12-2006, 20:56
Okay... Your comparing Wave Serpent double duty to "gasoline double duty" is just, well...... I'll just be nice and say you're comparing apples to oranges.

But you have to admit that when it comes to absolute statements, I'm correct. You Can use a waveserpent as a brilliant Firesupport platform and a brilliant Transport. You also Can use gasoline as a fuel source and as a weapon. I think stating it is a bit moot.



When I stated that the Wave Serpent can be used as both troop transport AND tank hunter, I stated a clear fact. And it is a totally relevant fact.


A fact? Yes, very much so. Totally relevant? Not totally, but significantly relevant and far from irrelevant. A moot point? Yes. It's a known fact and without a follow up question it breeds no discussion.



As for whether or not the Wave Serpent "should" be used for such double duty, that is strictly OPINION, regardless of which side you take on the issue.


Correct. It is stricly oppinion. Just as asking if the Serpent is a "Super Tank" is only going to bring about oppinions. Is the fact that it is a very good fire support platform as relevant as the fact that it can ferry 12 soldiers around quite safely? Yes. Is the fact that it is a Fast, Skimmer with 12 armor all around equally relevant as the fact that it costs 100 pts. minimum and is a non scoring unit? Yes. No arguement here. No room to grow or explore...so I move right along to oppinion, since that's far more interesting and has far more potential for growth.



As for me, I think EITHER option is equally valid. Arm the Wave serpent with Scatter Lasers (or Shuriken Cannons), and you have an amazing Infantry Fighting Vehicle. Arm the Wave Serpent with Bright Lances (which ARE twin-linked, reducing your chance to miss), and you have a decent platform to use for tank-hunting once you get the unit inside to where you want it.

Granted, I certainly wouldn't take a Wave Serpent IN PLACE OF a Falcon or Fire Prism. But, depending on what kind of troops I'm carrying inside, Bright Lances certainly aren't a bad idea. If I'm carrying Dire Avengers in a Wave Serpent, I'm DEFINITELY arming the Serpent with anti-troop weapons such as scatter lasers, making the whole package an anti-troop unit. My Fire Dragons will go in a serpent armed with bright lances - for tank killing, of course.

;)

In a post before I responded you recinded your oppinion on what to arm your serpents with and stated that it might be best to equip Lances on a serpent given to Avengers and Some form of Anti-Infantry weapon to the Dragon's Serpent. I agree with that notion.

However, I personally feel that the Brightlance is over priced for what it is capable of. bs3 twinlinked means that you will statistically hit more often than miss. Str 8 Lance means that you will at worst have a 4 to glance 5+ to pen, but with only a single shot per turn, if your avengers get threatened with enemy armor, it's not what I would consider reliable as far as a defensive measure. Admittedly, avengers have no other way to eliminate armor, but for my money, I'd perfer to give Scatter Lasers to a serpent and let my Falcons and Prisms hunt down enemy armor.

Also, since you won't be using it to replace your prism or Falcon, I suppose it's not a Supertank, yes?;)

Getz
28-12-2006, 21:26
What about the Eldar Missile Launcher? As I remember that's an option for the WS and I would have thought it would be quite a good one. Can tackle any kind of target, best range of any of the Eldar heavy weapons...

It is, admittedly, a bit of a jack-of-all-trades weapon, but Eldar have a severe shortage of flexible unit types and generalists can be valuble sometimes...

Gensuke626
28-12-2006, 23:51
Personally I don't like taking 1 shot weapons if I can help it. It's why I prefer the Falcon to the Prism. That's just me, but the EML is a wonderful weapon...Krak Missiles + AP4 Pinning Frag Missiles...

Sotec
03-01-2007, 05:21
One tournament my WS with Shruicannons took out two immolators and three Exorcists by shooting at side armour. It rocked!

In a tournament scenarioi you can force your opponent to ignore it (offering better targets) thereby letting it get into a better field position to do damage.

I won a large tournament with a mechanized/fast force back in 3rd ed and my favourite sneaky tactic was to push empty serpents forward and wait for teh other guy to assault it with CC troops (getting them to all bunch up) then pasting the bunched up troops with fire prism templates. It works awesomely on troops that have to assault you (Death company, Berzerkers etc).

I like the Serpent, but the Fire Prism is the best attack tank in the Eldar Arsenal. Nothing says layin' on the hurt but a blast lascannon shot from 58" away. Most opponents don't have more than one or two weapons in their army that can shoot more then 54" (48" range + 6" move). Eliminate those and then fire away.

Also Necron players hate Fire Prisms with a passion, and that alone makes them worthwhile to take.

Cheers!
Sotec