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DeathlessDraich
25-12-2006, 13:24
I've seen this somewhere but I can remember how it was resolved:

A Giant and a Clanrat unit charges into a unit of Dryads.

The Giant rolls 'Yell and Bawl' - Enemies can't strike back and the Giant's side auto wins the combat by 2.
1) Do the clanrats still get to fight? We agreed that they could but I'm not sure.
2) Can the Clanrats add to the +2 combat res, from ranks,wounds, standeard etc or is their contribution ignored?

Merry Xmas and thanks in advance

Atrahasis
25-12-2006, 16:58
Regardless of any other factors, enemy lose by 2, and take a Break Test accordingly.

As far as I can recall, the Yell and Bawl attack prevents any models in base contact with the Giant attacking this turn, so other units and any models not in contact with the Giant can fight as normal (though the combat result will not be affected).

Negativemoney
25-12-2006, 17:21
The Combat ends when Yell and Bawl occurs and the enemy must test a -2 regardless of any other combat res. Stubborn still tests at thier base leadership.

Atrahasis
25-12-2006, 17:31
The Combat ends when Yell and Bawl occurs Nope, the rules in no way support this.

Negativemoney
25-12-2006, 18:22
The rule in the rule book is "Enemies can't strike back and the Giant's side auto wins the combat by 2." If it is in fact posted correctly.

If the Giant auto wins How can there be any more combat?

The fact that the winner is determined at the end of combat and not durring implies that you skip everything else in the combat and go right to the break test for your opponent.

Otherwise please post the rule that says models that are not in base with the giant can attack if they are in the same combat?

Festus
25-12-2006, 18:53
Hi

The rule is that enemy models in contact with the Giant may not attack in this phase if they have not already done so. Others can and indeed must strike the foe if it is possible.

Regardless of the outcome (W, Standards, etc.), the Giant's side wins by 2.

Festus

Atrahasis
25-12-2006, 20:11
Otherwise please post the rule that says models that are not in base with the giant can attack if they are in the same combat?


Neither the Giant nor models in contact with him fight if they have not already done so this round.

There you go, nothing about the combat ending immediately.

Mephistofeles
25-12-2006, 22:56
If it only affects models in contact with the giant, then units with spears may strike with their second rank? Sounds strange...

Negativemoney
26-12-2006, 04:23
If it only affects models in contact with the giant, then units with spears may strike with their second rank? Sounds strange...

Indeed but as I said earlier the last line in teh Giants rules states that "The Giant's side automatically wins the combat by 2." To me that sounds like it it ends right then and there.

From the Direwolf FAQ:

Q. After a Giant Yells and Bawls, can he still be attacked by models
not in base to base contact with him, such as models that "fight in
ranks" in the second or subsequent ranks?

A. No. The Yell and Bawl description states "Neither the Giant nor
models in contact with him actually fight if they have not already
done so this round, but the combat round is automatically won by the
Giant's side." As the Giant's side automatically wins the combat,
the combat is ended at that point.
S. Direwolf FAQ Council Interpretation / Orcs & Goblins Army Book
page 23

Festus
26-12-2006, 10:07
Hi
From the Direwolf FAQ:...
As useful as the Direwolf can be as a collection of rules sources all piled into one big heap, the Direwolf council is more often wrong than right if left to their own devices.

This is the case here as well.

The Giant's rules tell us the outcome of the combat in terms of Combat Result and Ld-Modifier, but it does not tell us to stop the combat.
So we don't stop the combat. Simple, really.

The rule is not: *The combat ends and the Giant's side wins by two.* but it is worded as can be read above? Why the unneccessary complication? Because the combat itself does not end with the Giant's attacks!

Festus

Mephistofeles
26-12-2006, 10:37
How are the actual rules worded?

So this means the models with spears can fight back? And more importantly, does it mean that Brettonians fighting in lance can do so too? And pikemen?

Festus
26-12-2006, 11:15
Hi

How are the actual rules worded?
Would you mind reading post #9 of this thread...
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1171452&postcount=9

Greetings
Festus

Negativemoney
26-12-2006, 12:51
"... but the combat round is automatically won by the
Giant's side."
The wording it self might be vague butthe fact that the conjunction used in this implies that you move from the fighting part of the combat to the resolution part of the combat where the Giant's side will win by 2.

Atrahasis
26-12-2006, 13:30
"Automatic" does not mean "immediate".

Negativemoney
26-12-2006, 15:33
The wording would be diffrent in the event that it is not immediate. It would be something like this
"Regardless of wounds caused durring this round at the end of combat the Giant automatically wins by 2"

Because it infers that you move starit to combat res it ends the combat.

intellectawe
26-12-2006, 15:55
You go by order of combat. Whenever the Giant's turn to go comes, if he gets that option, combat auto ends.

1) I charge the giant with great weapons, do my damage, then he goes, if he yells and brawls, combat ends.
2) next round, the giant goes before my great weapons, if he yells and brawls, combat ends before I go.

This is how I play this situation. It is fair for both players. If someone could come up with a better solution, I am all ears.

Come on guys, the giant sucks as is. There is no reason to make it weaker than it already is.

Kadrium
26-12-2006, 16:04
You go by order of combat. Whenever the Giant's turn to go comes, if he gets that option, combat auto ends.

1) I charge the giant with great weapons, do my damage, then he goes, if he yells and brawls, combat ends.
2) next round, the giant goes before my great weapons, if he yells and brawls, combat ends before I go.

This is how I play this situation. It is fair for both players. If someone could come up with a better solution, I am all ears.

Come on guys, the giant sucks as is. There is no reason to make it weaker than it already is.

Weather or not the unit "sucks" makes no difference on how the rules should be interpreted.

NOTHING states that combat ends at the precise moment the giant executes yell and bawl. All that is stated is that the giant does not actually attack, and the models in contact with the giant do not attack if they have not already.

Nothing says that combat ends.

When you move to the CR phase of that combat round, you need make no calculations for ranks, outnumbering, wounds, standards.. the giants side wins by 2 CR.

Its not complicated. "Automatically" does not mean "instantly" or "immediately".

intellectawe
26-12-2006, 16:07
Weather or not the unit "sucks" makes no difference on how the rules should be interpreted.


Of course it does. If the rule is ambiguous, then why not? This isn't a case of black or white. But whatever you decide to play the giant with your gaming group is up to you. I have been to plenty of tourneys ( and my own store of course ), and the giant has always, as I have personally seen, ended combat. No one ever bothered to dispute this. Otherwise, why take such a crappy unit? You should be glad he actually gets into combat for this debate to even occur :)

As for this case, I would agree with you as I can also see this being played either way. We would just discuss this before the game started, thats all.

Kadrium
26-12-2006, 16:19
Just because the unit is seen as weak or strong does not mean the rules can be ignored or changed. Yes, of course you may play with any rules you care to between friends, but when someone asks for the rules to be clarified, it is pretty black and white.

If I feel my gnoblars "suck" in my Ogre army, does that mean I am free to re-interpret the bicker rules?

nightcrawler
26-12-2006, 18:02
Its funny the way this rule works. I watched a game at a tourney where an O&G player had a unit of boyz in the front, a savage orc unit in one flank and a giant in the rear of a large unit of skeletons. When it came to the giants turn he 'yell and bawled' so when combat res was accounted for the undead player took 2 skellies off and smiled. He would have lost the entire unit if it wasn't for that giant.

intellectawe
26-12-2006, 18:56
Just because the unit is seen as weak or strong does not mean the rules can be ignored or changed. Yes, of course you may play with any rules you care to between friends, but when someone asks for the rules to be clarified, it is pretty black and white.

If I feel my gnoblars "suck" in my Ogre army, does that mean I am free to re-interpret the bicker rules?

Gnoblars have nothing to do with this situation as the Gnoblar bicker rule cannot be reasonably interpreted in a different way. They either bicker or they don't. This specific case IS right or wrong. NOt so with the giant, it seems.

This Giant rule can be seen as one way or the other, so why not give the Giant the benefit of the doubt? Oh I know why, because you don't use him most likely. This wouldn't be an issue if your games were friendly, right? Which is what all games SHOULD be, barring SOME tournament games around.

I appreciate your out look on this rule, and I hope you find the correct answer.

greenskin
26-12-2006, 22:29
I really hate that. It sounds like you were watching one of my games. :(

NakedFisherman
26-12-2006, 22:42
Hi

The rule is that enemy models in contact with the Giant may not attack in this phase if they have not already done so. Others can and indeed must strike the foe if it is possible.

Regardless of the outcome (W, Standards, etc.), the Giant's side wins by 2.

Festus

QFT .

Atrahasis
26-12-2006, 23:59
Gnoblars have nothing to do with this situation as the Gnoblar bicker rule cannot be reasonably interpreted in a different way. They either bicker or they don't. This specific case IS right or wrong. NOt so with the giant, it seems.

Read the Giant rules. Nothing reasonably suggests that combat should end as soon as the Giant has his (ineloquent) say.

If the combat should end immediately, then why does the entry say that models in contact with the giant cannot fight, and not "units involved in the combat with the giant"?

Saying that the combat ends immediately has no support whatsoever in the text of the rule - go and read it without prejudice and you'll see.

Sabbad
27-12-2006, 00:17
Hi

The rule is that enemy models in contact with the Giant may not attack in this phase if they have not already done so. Others can and indeed must strike the foe if it is possible.

Regardless of the outcome (W, Standards, etc.), the Giant's side wins by 2.

Festus

This is how I would interpret the rule. I can't think of anything in the description that states otherwise.

And no, whether a unit sucks or not should have no ruling on a rules discussion. For a start, people have different opinions of what "sucks" and what doesn't, and when people start arguing about how much a unit "sucks" rather than the actual meaning of a rule then the end is in sight.


I give you the following example:

BILL and BEN are arguing about whether Trolls take Fear tests. REFEREE has stepped into adjudicate.

REFEREE: It's clearly stated Bill; units that cause fear themselves don't take Fear tests.
BILL: Yeah... but Trolls don't get their full number of attacks when they vomit.
REFEREE: Uh...
BILL: It means that they really struggle to take down massive units of Knights.
REFEREE: I'm not sure what that has to do with this situation-
BILL: I mean, I got pasted by Brettonians the other day, just because of that stupid rule.
BEN: Bill, that is a totally unimportant matter in this context.
REFEREE: Thank you Ben.
BEN: What IS an important issue is that Trolls have a Movement of 6.
REFEREE: What?
BILL: What use is a movement of 6?
REFEREE: What relevance has a movement of 6?
BEN: Oh come on, its great for flank attacks and the like.
BILL: So...
BEN: So Trolls are overpowered enough as it is. They should be immune to fear.
REFEREE: TROLLS ARE IMMUNE TO FEAR! It says it right here in the rulebook!
BILL: No way. How am I supposed to take down Black Knights if I'm taking Fear tests. The Vomit rule weakens Trolls enough as it is...

Discussion continues. REFEREE leaves to hang himself.

intellectawe
27-12-2006, 02:55
Read the Giant rules. Nothing reasonably suggests that combat should end as soon as the Giant has his (ineloquent) say.

If the combat should end immediately, then why does the entry say that models in contact with the giant cannot fight, and not "units involved in the combat with the giant"?

Saying that the combat ends immediately has no support whatsoever in the text of the rule - go and read it without prejudice and you'll see.

I see what you mean. I have read the rules a few more times and I see your point of view much clearer now.

Thanks for helping me!



I give you the following example:

BILL and BEN are arguing about whether Trolls take Fear tests. REFEREE has stepped into adjudicate.

REFEREE: It's clearly stated Bill; units that cause fear themselves don't take Fear tests.
BILL: Yeah... but Trolls don't get their full number of attacks when they vomit.
REFEREE: Uh...
BILL: It means that they really struggle to take down massive units of Knights.
REFEREE: I'm not sure what that has to do with this situation-
BILL: I mean, I got pasted by Brettonians the other day, just because of that stupid rule.
BEN: Bill, that is a totally unimportant matter in this context.
REFEREE: Thank you Ben.
BEN: What IS an important issue is that Trolls have a Movement of 6.
REFEREE: What?
BILL: What use is a movement of 6?
REFEREE: What relevance has a movement of 6?
BEN: Oh come on, its great for flank attacks and the like.
BILL: So...
BEN: So Trolls are overpowered enough as it is. They should be immune to fear.
REFEREE: TROLLS ARE IMMUNE TO FEAR! It says it right here in the rulebook!
BILL: No way. How am I supposed to take down Black Knights if I'm taking Fear tests. The Vomit rule weakens Trolls enough as it is...

Discussion continues. REFEREE leaves to hang himself.

Actually, you could have saved yourself some time and not even typed this garbage.

Griefbringer
27-12-2006, 10:49
Actually, you could have saved yourself some time and not even typed this garbage.

Let's not be excessively harsh for new posters. :cries:

And I actually found it hugely entertaining and amusing. :) Just because this is the rules forum does not mean that some odd humour is not allowed.

T10
27-12-2006, 10:50
At least it took less time to quote it. I found it funny in its own right, except the use of capitals made it harder on the eye to read. It would have been a lot more fun if it had actually been an anlaogy og the current thread. But then again, everybody's a critic.

-T10

DeathlessDraich
27-12-2006, 13:55
Summary:

On the 2nd issue of whether CR is changed by other combatants:
It seems the general view is:

1) The giants side wins by 2 regardless of any contribution to the CR from other friendly units in the same combat.

This is in keeping with RAW.
The alternative (of adding/reducing CR) would complicate matters further.

On the 1st issue of whether friendly units in the same combat as the Giant can fight after the Giant Yells:

This is still slightly debatable but most are of the opinion that:

2) Other friendly units can still fight if they haven't.


However this is not explicit in the rules and the above interpretation is based on the distinction of 'automatically wins' which is not 'immediately wins' which Atrahasis first pointed out.

Mephistofeles: This would mean that enemy models not in btb with the Giant like Spearmen, Lance Brets in the 2nd rank can also fight.

NegativeMoney: I'm not a big fan of DireWolf - too dire for me;)

Festus: 'Others can and indeed must strike the foe if it is possible.' This is not a quote from the rules I take it.

EvC
27-12-2006, 14:55
I believe I asked this question a few months ago and while there were a fair few replies, there was not a satisfactory answer. Ah yes, here it is:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30222

Please note that the rule does not say enemy, it just says models. My own intrerpretation tells me that "models" refers to "units" and so any friendly unit right next to the Giant (As would happen with maximising units in combat) does not get to fight, but units on another side of the unit get to fight. Spears don't get to fight back. The combat does not end immediately, but usually it will signal the end.

Kadrium
27-12-2006, 15:27
Please note that the rule does not say enemy, it just says models.

It does indeed say that, so the friendly models next to the giant would not fight as well.


My own intrerpretation tells me that "models" refers to "units"

I don't see why this part of the rule even needs to be interpreted. "Models" is a pretty clearly defined term in 7th. There is no reason to assume they meant anything but models. They didn't use any inconsistent terms like "combatants", so I see no need to lay an interpretation on distinct terms.


and so any friendly unit right next to the Giant (As would happen with maximising units in combat) does not get to fight, but units on another side of the unit get to fight.

If you put model back into your sentence where you used unit, you're correct.


Spears don't get to fight back. The combat does not end immediately, but usually it will signal the end.

Spears would get their attacks.

Once more, it seems like people are laying interpretation onto rules that don't need them. While the giant may be more powerful with a different interpretation of the rules, that does not make that interpretation correct.

intellectawe
27-12-2006, 17:18
Yeah, I would side with the word "model" as this is what is exactly given to use and we all know what a "model" means. This is in NO way confusing.

If I had a Giant, and he Yelled and Brawled, any friendly models in blocks accompanying him wouldn't get to attack (which should be just the front model if not a unit of spearmen) and only the front row of enemy wouldn't be able ot attack (once again, barring rank attacks if they are spearmen)

Festus
27-12-2006, 17:48
Hi

DDraich- No, it was not a quote, but you are not allowed to voluntarily not strike your attacks at an enemymodel in close combat if you are able to do so.
If you are in a position to fight, you must do so if nothing else prohibits it.

Festus

EvC
27-12-2006, 17:50
Once more, it seems like people are laying interpretation onto rules that don't need them. While the giant may be more powerful with a different interpretation of the rules, that does not make that interpretation correct.

Well I apologise for human nature and its desire for things to be simple and clear ;) I don't see anything wrong with what you say, it seems odd in some ways but makes perfect sense! It's just it does not mention "base to base" contact, which it invariably does when it means anything in base to base contact... I could get especially pedantic and ask that if a second rank of spearmen is not "in contact" with the Giant, how are they fighting him?

DeathlessDraich
28-12-2006, 12:47
Thank you for the link EVC. Yes it does say, btb contact with the Giant i.e. friendly and enemy models.
I remember it now.
The discussion in that thread ended with a more inconclusive outcome than this thread so far probably because RAW seems to be the unofficial norm now.

Kadrium
28-12-2006, 15:32
I could get especially pedantic and ask that if a second rank of spearmen is not "in contact" with the Giant, how are they fighting him?

Because spears fight in ranks?

EvC
28-12-2006, 22:15
DeathlessDraich, I just double-checked, and it doesn't say base-to-base contact; it just says contact. It depends how widely the term "contact" is considered. Since it doesn't say base-to-base contact, and it usually does say it if that's what a rule is saying, then it probably means that it has a wider definition. Probably all models fighting in the same combat as the Giant, but there's no way to know.

Da GoBBo
28-12-2006, 22:44
Funny how this question keeps popping up every ones in a while. Every time everybody agrees on the same thing, yell and bawl does two things:

1) models in contact can't perform any (additional) attacks this combat round (contact = base contact in this case, that's the only way for models to have contact).

2) combat results in a win for the giants side, this side wins by 2

Silly as it may seem, this means pikeman can indeed fight back with 3(?) ranks, ouch. Than again, everything that seems silly to me allways seems to be a firm rule in warhammer, so would this be any different eh :D.

EvC
28-12-2006, 22:47
Every time not everybody agrees, see the thread linked to earlier where it was just as inconclusive. Again I ask, how does someone strike someone in close combat without being in contact with them?

Wodan.BR
28-12-2006, 23:13
Spears and pikes strike in close combat without being in contact:
Ex:
ABC
DEF(G)
GHI

Here (G) is the giant. The rest of the letters are high elf spearmen.
The giant is in contact with C, F and I. But(assuming he charged) a, b,d, e, g and h can strike the giant because of their weapon special rule.

EvC
28-12-2006, 23:26
Argh! I KNOW the weapon special rule for christ's sake! I am not asking how you strike them without being in base-to-base contact, I'm asking you do it without being in contact AT ALL. I only said it about five times :rolleyes: The spearmen are all in contact with the Giant; if they were not, they would be able to move. They are not connected directly, obviously, but my point is what does "contact" mean in this instance? Why would we assume it's the same as being in base-to-base contact when every othe B2B rule explicitly says base to base?

Atrahasis
29-12-2006, 00:34
When you quote "every other" circumstance and show definitively that this is the sole instance of "contact" being used without "base to base" then you'll have proven precisely one thing - that the word "contact" has been used once without the words "base to base" in front of it.

Since "contact" has no meaning alone, and only one meaning in the context of Warhammer rules (base to base), it makes sense to interpret it as base to base. Anything else requires a larger assumption and therefore fails Occam's Razor. Of course, that doesn't mean its correct, it just means that without further evidence its the best working hypothesis.

EvC
29-12-2006, 00:52
Bit of a problem with rules induction assumption there, but since part of my point is that it's inconclusive and unclear (fancy that!), that's okay.

intellectawe
29-12-2006, 01:54
contact meaning two models physically touching each other seems pretty clear to me. When models touch each other, what do we call it in this game? Base to base.

DaBrode
29-12-2006, 02:58
I'd love to get an official answer on this one. I like my Giant.

intellectawe
29-12-2006, 03:01
An official answer is written right under the rules for the Giant. What part of the rules are you confused by?

DaBrode
29-12-2006, 03:04
Sorry I'm new here but amongst the 3 pages here I thought the raging debate was whether other models in contact with the enemy unit and special ability enemy ranks got to attack....or the combat was immediately sent to the state of resolution?

intellectawe
29-12-2006, 05:03
Sorry I'm new here but amongst the 3 pages here I thought the raging debate was whether other models in contact with the enemy unit and special ability enemy ranks got to attack....or the combat was immediately sent to the state of resolution?

Both.

Some believe the combat ends when Yell and Brawl happens. Some believe the combat keeps going on.

Some believe that entire units are affected by Yell and Brawl. Some believe that only models are.

The right answer, from what I have read on this thread, would be, Yell and Brawl happens, and only models in base to base contact with the giant are not able to attack anymore. Any other models participating in the combat get to do their attacks still, but at the end of combat, the Giant's side wins by 2 no matter what the resolution is.

DaBrode
29-12-2006, 07:31
Both.

Some believe the combat ends when Yell and Brawl happens. Some believe the combat keeps going on.

Some believe that entire units are affected by Yell and Brawl. Some believe that only models are.

The right answer, from what I have read on this thread, would be, Yell and Brawl happens, and only models in base to base contact with the giant are not able to attack anymore. Any other models participating in the combat get to do their attacks still, but at the end of combat, the Giant's side wins by 2 no matter what the resolution is.

That sounds like the best answer to me as well.

Festus
29-12-2006, 09:20
Hi

Yes, this still is the rule, notwithstanding any bickering in this thread.

EvC- The rule what contact and model means are defined on p.32 and pp.6f. respectively. a unit is a unit of (one or more) models, a model is just one model (smetimes consisting of several components itself).

Festus

DeathlessDraich
29-12-2006, 11:15
Sorry I'm new here but amongst the 3 pages here I thought the raging debate was whether other models in contact with the enemy unit and special ability enemy ranks got to attack....or the combat was immediately sent to the state of resolution?

Welcome, Da Brode.
The regular contributors to this forum are passionate about correct rules but are soft internally so please don't take any criticisms personally. :)

EvC: I understand your point. It's based on the question:
Does 'contact' mean something broader than 'base to base contact' and was the omission of 'base to base' intentional?
Considering the poor state of Giant rules, I think the omission is an oversight.

How models not in base contact can fight is actually explained on pg 55 "warriors in the second rank can stab past their comrades etc"

EDit: After reading Festus's pg 32 reference, I noticed the word 'touching' is used to explain btb contact. Touching is close enough to contact i.e. in Warhammer contact, touching, base contact and btb contact are synonymous.

Da GoBBo
29-12-2006, 11:29
...I am not asking how you strike them without being in base-to-base contact, I'm asking you do it without being in contact AT ALL...

There's a difference between being engaged in CC with a model and being in contact with an enemy model. I think the difference is clear enough and although it might not be mathemeticly solid in the rulebook, everybody should be able to understand the difference. Models touching eachother (being in contact with one another) is just that, a model touching another model and the only way to do that in this game is for the bases to be in contact (please don't start about spear ends coincidently touching the giant).

EvC
29-12-2006, 14:32
The point is not the definition of unit, model or touch, those are all blatantly clear. The point is the definition of contact when it is not defined as base-to-base contact. DeathlessDraich actually seems to understand what I'm saying (Shocks!), but it's not sound to use the line "touching is used to describe base-to-base contact" to infer that "models not in base-to-base cannot be in contact as they are not touching". It just tells use they are not in base-to-base contact... which is what we all already know! If shouting is used to describe contacting someone loudly, that doesn't mean that I'm not in contact with someone if I whisper.

It's a fair enough interpretation to assume it means base-to-base contact because every other mention of contact in the game includes the term base-to-base; in which case, why don't we also take the term automatic to mean immediately, as every other thing in the game that happens automatically also happens immediately? This is not my logic btw.

intellectawe
29-12-2006, 15:46
This is not my logic btw.

Thank God.

Because by that "logic" you posted, every single word in the Rules book MUST be defined in some way. So how do we know what the words "a", "the", "sword", and ""and" mean without a dictionary approved by GW stuck in the back of the book?

Its called a little common sense. There is an age limit for the game, and people at the youngest age limit should already have grasped the meanings of some words. "contact" is hardly a college word.

Da GoBBo
29-12-2006, 16:23
The point is not the definition of unit, model or touch, those are all blatantly clear.

Sorry, my intentions weren't very clear. I'v altered my post above. (swaped "touching" with "being in contact with". This should really clear things up.

EvC
29-12-2006, 18:03
Thank God.

Because by that "logic" you posted, every single word in the Rules book MUST be defined in some way. So how do we know what the words "a", "the", "sword", and ""and" mean without a dictionary approved by GW stuck in the back of the book?

Its called a little common sense. There is an age limit for the game, and people at the youngest age limit should already have grasped the meanings of some words. "contact" is hardly a college word.

There is no need to be rude about this. It's called "common courtesy". I've made my position very clear:
1) Rulebook says base (to base) contact in every situation where it means base contact.
2) It's very clear from both the rulebook and common sense what "base to base contact" means. It means contact between models through them being in base contact.
3) Giant rules just mention contact. This implies it may not need to be "base to base" contact. It could be the fact that they are in contact through combat. It could be the fact that the Giant chooses to aim his attack at that particular unit and the models within it, thereby establishing contact. Or it could indeed mean base to base contact. If you can prove it means the latter or add anything constructive without being insulting, please feel free, otherwise don't bother trying.

Sub-question: Festus earlier added the word "enemy" to his explanation of the rules, when it does not mention the tern enemy at all. Does the rule in fact only cover enemies, or would also friendly models that may be arranged in base contact with the Giant to maximise combatants lose their attacks?

Kadrium
30-12-2006, 01:36
3) Giant rules just mention contact. This implies it may not need to be "base to base" contact. It could be the fact that they are in contact through combat.

If that is the case, and we decide to use a broader definition of the term "contact", it could be argued that the entire enemy army is "in contact" with the giant as they are engaging the army the giant is a part of. Therefore, when the giant gets to Yell and Bawl, the entire enemy army may not attack and loses any combat they're in by 2 because they're having a contact of warfare.

Because we must make some kind of assumption about the meaning of "contact", it seems safer to assume it means "base to base contact", a phrase commonly used in Warhammer and which is extremely similar the term we have been provided with, instead of assuming that "contact" in this case means some sort of broadly generalized "two or more individuals or groups placed in communication with each other".

Yes, every time I can think of that GW means to reference touching models, they say *Base to Base* contact. However, I can't think of any other instance where they refer to models or units that are fighting eachother to be "having contact" or "contacting eachother". I find "base to base" to be the much smaller leap of faith, logic, and common sense.

Crazy Harborc
30-12-2006, 01:56
Great debate, well said posts on all sides of the debate.

Bottom line has NOT changed. The giant's SIDE wins. "Side" would in this case be all the units invovled in the gaint's HtH. The units do the fighting, individual ranks make up a unit. The unit the giant is fighting DOES not fight back if it has not done so yet. Front rank back rank or in between, they are part of the unit that can't fight because the giant has yell and bawled. THAT would include all unit(s) able to fight the giant because they too HAVE to have base to base contact with the giant's base or the rank in front of them in their unit does.

Sorry, I HAD to say it. IMHO, this thread is a "debate" that happens to have a topic of what happens when a giant yell and bawls. GW said what IS to be the resolution in the rules for the giant as they are to be in 7th edition.;)

Atrahasis
30-12-2006, 02:06
The unit the giant is fighting DOES not fight back if it has not done so yet. Front rank back rank or in between, they are part of the unit that can't fight because the giant has yell and bawled.Have you read any of this thread? NOTHING in the Giant's rules says that units can't fight. Only models in contact with the giant can't fight.

If there are any models eligible to fight that are not in contact with the giant, then they can attack as normal.

EvC
30-12-2006, 03:14
If that is the case, and we decide to use a broader definition of the term "contact", it could be argued that the entire enemy army is "in contact" with the giant as they are engaging the army the giant is a part of. Therefore, when the giant gets to Yell and Bawl, the entire enemy army may not attack and loses any combat they're in by 2 because they're having a contact of warfare.

Because we must make some kind of assumption about the meaning of "contact", it seems safer to assume it means "base to base contact", a phrase commonly used in Warhammer and which is extremely similar the term we have been provided with, instead of assuming that "contact" in this case means some sort of broadly generalized "two or more individuals or groups placed in communication with each other".

Yes, every time I can think of that GW means to reference touching models, they say *Base to Base* contact. However, I can't think of any other instance where they refer to models or units that are fighting eachother to be "having contact" or "contacting eachother". I find "base to base" to be the much smaller leap of faith, logic, and common sense.

Although well put-together, your premise is flawed, as the ultimate system in the Yell and Bawl attack consists of those in the combat with the Giant, as in the Giant, his prime opponent and any others fighting. Thus, if I am correct, which I may well not be, the assumption (Or rather, the guess) that must be made is whether it applies to the one unit the Giant is targetted, all enemies or everyone fighting in the combat.

I'm just still enjoying the fact that I seem to be the only who is capable of imagining the notion of two models fighting each other in close combat without having any sort of contact :D

Kadrium
30-12-2006, 03:20
If you wish to assume that "fighting" and "contacting" are interchangeable terms, you are more than welcome to play the giant in that manner.

EvC
30-12-2006, 03:34
And if you think you can fight someone without (physical) contact, then I equally give you permission to believe that :D

Kadrium
30-12-2006, 04:51
Models with spears do it every game.

intellectawe
30-12-2006, 05:02
There is no need to be rude about this.

I wasn't.


And if you think you can fight someone without (physical) contact, then I equally give you permission to believe that :D

Spears can, from second and sometimes third rows..

EvC
30-12-2006, 13:39
If you're stabbing someone with a spear then you're close enough to be in contact with your victim, by definition, whether you're in base contact or at arm's length. To keep repeating that they're doing it without any form of contact shows that both of you are completely unable, or unwilling, to comprehend the concept, so your posts are simply a waste of everyone's time. I believe we have reached an impasse, i.e. game over :)

Predicted response: "but they're not touching the Giant's base so they're not in base-to-base combat!" :o

Festus
30-12-2006, 16:05
Hi

To keep repeating that they're doing it without any form of contact shows that both of you are completely unable, or unwilling, to comprehend the concept, ...

Predicted response: "but they're not touching the Giant's base so they're not in base-to-base combat!" :o
*contact* in the English language means that something is (physically or otherwise) touching something else.
*contact* in WHFB means that two or more models are touching each other with their bases.

Are we talking semantics here or WHFB?

Asks
Festus

BTW:
...so your posts are simply a waste of everyone's time. Nice of you to decide who is wasting the time of whom... Why does the word *Troll* manifests itself in my thoughts? :rolleyes:

Festus

Kadrium
30-12-2006, 16:08
EDIT: Festus did a perfectly fine job of explaining what I was, with less words and hostility. :D

intellectawe
30-12-2006, 16:27
*contact* in the English language means that something is (physically or otherwise) touching something else.
*contact* in WHFB means that two or more models are touching each other with their bases.

This is the EXACT point I made on the last page.

This "new age" crop of players play this game like its Magic: The Gathering. These players are unable to enjoy the hobby unless GW doles out everything to them on a spoon. Everything is RAW and everything loses it's emotions, its feelings, the fun that this hobby is saying bye bye to with the advent of tournament attitudes.

Most players now a days, especially online, require every word to be defined by GW otherwise the word is up for debate. Like I said earlier, how do we know what "a", "the", "and and "or" mean if they aren't defined in the rules book? Same goes for the word "contact" right? If a person can't define "contact", how that person define every other word in the book? Heck, the words that ARE defined, uses words in its definition that aren't defined! This is just recockulous.

I am looking at my models right now, and my second row spearmen have NO contact with a model I placed against the first rank, thus, having combat without contact.

Atrahasis
30-12-2006, 16:40
This "new age" crop of players play this game like its Magic: The Gathering. These players are unable to enjoy the hobby unless GW doles out everything to them on a spoon. Everything is RAW and everything loses it's emotions, its feelings, the fun that this hobby is saying bye bye to with the advent of tournament attitudes.Or, here's a thought, they enjoy the game, but also enjoy debating the rules, and wopuld prefer it if the game was more clearly constructed.

Of course, if you're talking about people who argue the rules ad nauseam during a game, then we agree.

intellectawe
30-12-2006, 16:48
Of course, if you're talking about people who argue the rules ad nauseam during a game, then we agree.

Which is what these types of people do. I met some people online from another website, and they acted in person JUST like they did online. Horrid.

Atrahasis
30-12-2006, 16:51
Which is what these types of people do. I met some people online from another website, and they acted in person JUST like they did online. Horrid.

Hmm, I;d consider myself (and a few other posters here) one of "these types", but I'm certain I don't do it during a game (and I'm fairly sure a lot of the people in my previous parantheses wouldn't either).

Kadrium
30-12-2006, 16:55
I enjoy a good rules debate, but arguing that "fighting" must mean you're "contacting" is just a little bit too far for me. I don't feel people should be rewarded for inventive interpretations and definitions of words.

There's debating rulings and then there's debating word definitions and semantics.

intellectawe
30-12-2006, 22:40
Which is what these types of people do. I met some people online from another website, and they acted in person JUST like they did online. Horrid.

Quoting myself here, I Just finished a gamewhere I ended the game on turn 3, due to my opponent being a complete tool as I coincidently brought up here in my quote yesterday.

I will post all the details later after I get back from a stupid party I have to attend. I will put the link up here for the correct section of this site so that some readers of this post can see what I mean after I post my battle report later.

EvC
31-12-2006, 13:50
Hi

*contact* in the English language means that something is (physically or otherwise) touching something else.
*contact* in WHFB means that two or more models are touching each other with their bases.

If you believe that contact requires base contact, that's your interpretation. The Giant's attack is directed at the entire unit, able to affect each model. Sounds like contact to me. It might not be though, as it's a vague term.

Why exactly is the Warhammer definition of contact different to the real world one given? The second definition of contact is described by "Base contact" in the rules. As Atrahasis says, it would just be nice if there was a clear definition of the rule.


BTW: Nice of you to decide who is wasting the time of whom... Why does the word *Troll* manifests itself in my thoughts? :rolleyes:

No, rolling your eyes at people, acting like a self-appointed know-it-all and accusing people of having no common sense if they dare to disagree with you is being a troll.

Incidentally, in the real world, if I had a Giant Yelling, I'd let my opponent's spearmen attack it, but wouldn't isnist that my spearmen get to fight a giant. So you can all stop having a bitchfest about what a bad person I must be for arguing with you.

DeathlessDraich
31-12-2006, 15:57
So you can all stop having a bitchfest about what a bad person I must be for arguing with you.

'All' means everyone who contributed to this thread.

I certainly did not ever did use words like "a bad person for arguing" neither was I 'having a bitchfest' - whatever that means.

In fact I thanked you for your first post.

You probably did not really mean to tarnish 'All' of us with the same brush but I will be closing this thread all the same - there's too much 'Yelling and Bawling':p .

I'll let anyone who wants to, to have a last word of conciliation only (you're certainly welcome to restart the same discussion elsewhere) before closing this thread. Hope everyone will calm down. Happy new Year!:D

Eldanar
31-12-2006, 17:47
Re-opened at the request of DeathlessDraich.

Please keep the insults to a minimum, and just stick to arguing rules.

Warseer Inquisition

EvC
31-12-2006, 18:15
'All' means everyone who contributed to this thread.

I certainly did not ever did use words like "a bad person for arguing" neither was I 'having a bitchfest' - whatever that means.

In fact I thanked you for your first post.

You probably did not really mean to tarnish 'All' of us with the same brush but I will be closing this thread all the same - there's too much 'Yelling and Bawling':p .

I'll let anyone who wants to, to have a last word of conciliation only (you're certainly welcome to restart the same discussion elsewhere) before closing this thread. Hope everyone will calm down. Happy new Year!:D

Yes, I apologise, to you and everyone else, I was rushed making the end of that post and looking closer in fact no-one was being as bad as I made out. Did seem like I was being ganged up on for daring to have a different interpretation at times, but I'm sure no-one really thinks like that :)

DeathlessDraich
31-12-2006, 18:22
:) Your contribution was valued EvC. Looking to forward to hearing your views as always. Happy new Year.

Da GoBBo
31-12-2006, 21:18
If you believe that contact requires base contact, that's your interpretation. The Giant's attack is directed at the entire unit, able to affect each model. Sounds like contact to me.

Yes, but the rulebook defines this kind of contact as being engaged in close combat. Contact is indeed just physical contact between models.


Why exactly is the Warhammer definition of contact different to the real world one given?


To avoid discussions like this?

DeathlessDraich
31-12-2006, 22:13
The discussion on the Giant is closed Da Gobbo and so will this thread by tomorrow.

I would have appreciated it if you'd read post #75 first.

Festus
01-01-2007, 12:55
Hi

Neither do I see a bitchfest here, but if somebody thought I was a self-appointed know-it-all, I have brought the wrong message across, obviously...

Happy New Year to everybody all!
Festus

DeathlessDraich
01-01-2007, 15:26
Final Summary:

1) The Giants side always wins by 2 regardless of friendly units contributing to the CR when the Giant Yells.

2) Models, enemy and friendly, in btb contact with the Giant cannot attack after the Giant Yells.

3) Whether enemy (e.g. Spearmen) or friendly models not in btb contact with the Giant can attack after the Giant Yells, is debatable although the majority feel they can.