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Von Wibble
27-12-2006, 16:33
Some background first.

I have faced dwarfs with high elves a few times.

1st game - used a standard army with a mix of foot units. Grudge throwers with S5 and reroll scatter took out a unit a turn, flame cannon took out another - my units were tiny by the time they got to him. Result - thanks to some damage done by a cavalry unit and general reluctance to commit infantry to fights they blatantly weren't going to win (5 Swordmasters vs 20 warriors!), combined with damage caused by magic, a minor defeat.

2nd game - went for more cav. Used spearmen (relatively cheap) and white lions (move through woods and +2 missile save) for infantry. General led dragon princes.

Dragon prince and chariot charge failed to break through and ran off (but rallied, so not many vps given away). Generally the flame cannon and grudge thrower continued in the pattern of killing a unit a turn, but only for 1 turn as I actually concentrated on them this time. Silver helms wiped by 1 volley from thunderers and a bolt thrower. Result - draw (a lot of my units crippled but few vps given away).

3rd game - No magic this time (too much spent on it in game 1 and too little effect in game 2). A victory due to a tactical blunder of epic proportions - a unit of hammerers were charged in the flank by dragon princes with standard of balance and chariot. With no stubborn (6th ed rules) and no rank bonus they broke and the cavalry rolled up teh battle line. Yet again the nifantry recieved a mauling at the hands of teh war machines...

4th game - No magic. Both magic bows, shadow warriors, archers, rbts (which i normally avoid like the plague). Won 1st turn, assassinated war machine crews and crossbowmen as fast as I could. The dwarfs had to come to me and as a result were outflanked.

Conclusion - The only game in which I used what I would consider to be a conventional high elf army (not cavalry heavy, not missile heavy, using infantry with teh former 2 acting as support as he should mio), it was a drubbing. The only reason it wasn't a massacre was that the unit avoided fights so the dwarfs couldn't administer the coup de grace.

So how do you beat them? Using an army that you could happily take against bretonnians, wood elves, chaos, and indeed anyone else please??

Corrupt
27-12-2006, 16:55
What points size were these at?
Remember elves are all flash and no thunder. We lack the toughness of the dwarves. Kill the grudge thrower and other war machines asap.
Use spearmen as a solid unit to receive charge, then hit the flanks. Eleven units are not designed for extended fistfights with ranked opposition. They strike, flank and break them.

EvC
27-12-2006, 16:57
You're going to have to make massive use of terrain to get any results. If you can't set it up, then do your best with what is available. You seem to know the best way of doing it- combined charges is the way to go, and free movement through woods is a must-have.

Big blocks of infantry in High Elf armies are, sadly, just free victory points for your enemy more often than not.

Corrupt
27-12-2006, 17:02
I beg to differ.
Big blocks of "Elite" troops, sword masters, white lion, pheonix guard are free VP's. But spearmen arn't.
I tend to deploy Large Blocks (20-30) of spearmen, with smaller (10-15) units of elite troops to guard their flanks.
If you set up right, the opposition will be forced to charge the front of the spearmen, who should hold, leaving your swordmastersto tear into the flank and win the combat.
Just do everything to avoid extended 1v1 combats!

EvC
27-12-2006, 17:14
You list three units that you agree are free VP's, and one that isn't. What does that mean? It means High Elf Infantry is just free VP's more often than not. So please don't beg to differ, since you don't!

It is a very poor mindset to state that you are going to have an enemy charge you in the front and then go on to flank them. If you're having tactical discussions, then you have to assume you're playing with someone who's half-decent- and so won't be making the decisions that result in your victory. If you have a great trick for making the enemy perform suicide charges then that's great, but I don't know any such way. As it is, a good opponent will simply stay back and not charge that unit at all. Or he'll do a combined charge of his own, with big infantry going in the front and two smaller units at the sides to stop you from flanking.

Corrupt
27-12-2006, 17:32
Yes
More often than not
Not all elf infantry are free VP's in big blocks
Just most.
I just speak from experience of my games against dwarves. The two dwarf players at my local have elite large blocks of infantry with a lack of supporting units which forces them to charge, otherwise I'l happily arrow them to death while they wait for me to attack.
They are very tough and hard to break on the attack, so I draw them onto my spearmen and flank with reavers while the PG, swordmasters or w/e maneuvre for the killing blow as I normally have more units even if his units are larger than mine!

EvC
27-12-2006, 17:49
If he can see what you've got and charges anyway, then he's simply a bad player... and point for point, if everyone stays back and shoots at each other, the Dwarfs will come out on top :(

But I admit, I am talking mostly from theory. I'll let you know how big HE blocks of infantry work out for me after tomorrow, when I'm playing a ~8000 point game with whatever High Elves anyone can bring!

AUN'SHI
27-12-2006, 20:16
I believe horses are you best form of attack. They move a lot and the dwarves don't really move at all.

Magic is also a good thing. High magic is pretty devestating cause I believe elves have some good spells thats grant no armour saves.

RBT's would make short work of his archers. and the dwarf gunners only shoot 24" your long bows go 30" I believe.

and your bound items are awsome.

but your speed is your biggest advantage espically if your opponent has a bad set up.

Finnigan2004
28-12-2006, 04:05
Wait a few months and challenge them to a rematch with your new and (hopefully) finally balanced army book? Sorry, couldn't resist.

greenskin
28-12-2006, 05:23
Use spearmen as a solid unit to receive charge, then hit the flanks.
I'm sorry but I just burst out laughing when I saw this one. If your plan for victory is to wait until you're charged by Dwarves then that win is going to be a long time comming. :)

Tutore
28-12-2006, 13:58
cavalry, spearmen, magic. No archer, perhaps bolt throwers. Even swordmasters could help.

Arhalien
28-12-2006, 14:05
ermmm, from my experience, we don't. My closest battle has been with a magic-cavalry heavy army, where I managed to force the dwarf player to move and managed to destory a fair few of his units with flank charges. However, my only experience against dwarves comes against gunlines (my 2 dwarf opponents have 4 and 5 war machines respectively in 2,000 and never move). Against more balanced dwarf lists it may be different.

The game is afoot
28-12-2006, 14:20
ermmm, from my experience, we don't.

Bang on.
New Dwarf book vs Old High Elf book well... it's just as well there is a seriously large body of water between the two races because when two capable generals go up against each other the Dwarves will wipe the floor with the High Elves pretty much everytime.

DeathlessDraich
28-12-2006, 17:26
Just had a quick read through the thread. This tactic doesn't seem to have been mentioned.
Seer Honour plus Pit of Shades.

Corrupt
28-12-2006, 20:19
I'm sorry but I just burst out laughing when I saw this one. If your plan for victory is to wait until you're charged by Dwarves then that win is going to be a long time comming. :)

Obviously you advance to nearer them so they are forced to charge or be charged...

EvC
28-12-2006, 21:35
If you're advancing, you're taking fire (Probably in the open) for a good 2-3 turns, and of course when you get closer that opens you up to short-range artillery like Organ Guns and Flame Cannons. Not to mention, the Dwarf player will be moving his own infantry around to what best suits him. And a standard Dwarf infantry unit will simply laugh at a charge from Spearmen...

Commissar Vaughn
29-12-2006, 00:24
Its been while since I took to the field with my high elves, let alone played dwarfs with them.It is possible to beat them for i have done it. IT is really not easy though, by any stretch of the imagination. Two games spring to mind, one i won and the other was a draw. I belive the 1st was a mere thousand points. I was trying out the MSU (or my version of it) on various opponents at the time. Ive watched time and time again the Wellingtons Thin Red Lines drive off napoleons Irresistable columns, and wanted to use the smae tactics in Warhammer. It doesnt quite work becouse of the rules(esp now theyve removed the Lap round rule!) But I made a compromise which elf infantry seem rather good at. Basically I use three units of 10-12spears, one with a command group. They form up in a line 16 across and 2 deep, the central company needs at least 12 men and the flanking companies at least 10. Spearmen are fine but you could upgrade one to an elite unit. If they are all the same though, it gives your opponent the impression they are just one unit in a weak formation...most people just dont pay proper attention *theatrical sigh*. close with the enemy fast and declare your charges. this is the tricky bit. Ive been through the rules for declaring and moving charges and if memory serves it works something like this, though of course there will always be ambiguity with warhammer! Declare the Central companys charge first, then the flanking companies. Now the central coy moves first against the front of the Dwarf unit, the flanking coys have to try to try to get to the front as well, but if your central unit is 6x2 then only one of them can fit against a dwarf unit in the standard 5x4! Asuming the other company is still within range, the only viable target now is the enemy flank!

Goodbye rankbonus, hello 33 ws4 i4 attacks! I like the line for that reason, as oppossed to the column/block. THe block is wasteful, the back3+ ranks dont do anything but cheer, and a measly 3 to the combat res. Assuming you dont get charged in your vulnerable flank. A lot of points for nothing, you might have a 250 point unit, but only 50 points worth is fighting at any one time! with Highef spearmen in line, they all get to fight. The dwarfs get only 1 point of CR , the elves start with 3 or 4 if they outnumber. And the dwarfs have around 12 attacks, the elves have closer to 33 and strike first....

Of course the line is weak against cavalry especially but as any historian of the peninsular war will tell you: "the line always beats the column. Almost"
It worked that day anyway and with two formations of 32 elves thus arrayed the dwarfs were forced from the field one unit after another. cheap adn small units silverhalms and reavers helped as well by drawing fire, screening and getting rid of warnmachines, and if neccessary dislodging stubborn elite dwarfs with a rear charge!

the other game was harder, and larger at 3k, the terrain to dense for me to set up in line formation, and my opponent decided to build a dwarf fort...You know the tactic, used by all dwarfs terrified of being outflanked, find a hill in the corner of the field and cover it with warmachines. in front and fanning out with a only a tiny gap between them 6 big units of warriors, each covering the others flank. Theres two ways to break this style of deployment no matter who uses it, unfortunatly they dont work as well aginst dwarfs!
Option one is to bait a unit out of his line and create a hole you can throw monsters and cavalry into , whilst surrounding and slaughtering the unit you baited. You'll have to sacrifice a unit to the juiciest target in the dwarf line and hope it pursues any survivors far enough away so that your units can flank it and charge the two units was covering in the flank as well! AS pursuit is optional though and dwarfs have LD10 thats rather unlikly to happen!
The other way is to bite the bullet and go for the meatgrinder, which dwarfs a rather good at. Send your best troops against the nearest unit(the on the table edge probably), add in plenty of character magic and artillery support and try and break through. This generally means slaughtering the tough little blighters to a dwarf! And you must cover the rest of his line as well! with cavalry for preference, as he darent move any of his units till all yours are engaged or commited to the fight, as this will leave him vulnerable, allowing your cavalry to sweep in and slaughter his warmachines and declare rear and flank charges. A strong screen is needed to make sure they cant reinforce against your main attack. If he does your cav are in behind him like a shot, if he doesnt you'll have to kill one unit entirely and then you'll be in behind him!
In my game I managed to bait one unit out but not far enough to get behind! Punished the dwarfs that turn, but they managed to pass the break tests on snake eyes! Ended up in a massive meatgrinder with almost every unit engaged in one giant combat! My elves decided that though they were weaker they would be more tennacious and most units died to the last man, even if forced to flee they all went back for another try! Even managed to force a couple of dwarf units off the board, though my elves were to few to take advantage of the holes they made in the line. My silver helms did espcially well, 5 managing to flank the Dwarf Lords uber unit and pin it for most of the game, they died to a man but took down 20+ dwarf elites in a protrcated fight, leaving the dwarflord feeling rather lonesome. Unfortunatly despite beating it time and time again they couldnt force it to run (so many snakeeyes!).

ok that was a lot more long winded than I intended! Please forgive me!
But I hope in the lessons I learnt there somone will find something useful and use it to kick the dwarfs to death!

Chicago Slim
29-12-2006, 01:11
Hey, Vaughn--

Sadly, the best piece of advice in your 3-unit tactic above is the bit where you suggest that you're not sure about the rules... Under 7th edition, when multiple units declare charges against the same target on the same turn, it changes the normal "move in order of declaration" rules: As usual, you have to make reasonable efforts to maximize the number of models in the combat, and in this situation, the book is quite clear that you'll move the multifarious chargers "simultaneously" in order to maximize the number of models in base to base contact. There's even lots of pictures.

More importantly, the recent FAQ indicates that, if a unit is in the front arc of a target unit, and declares a charge, but cannot get into the front (because there's another unit in there already, or because of impassible terrain) then they fail the charge: you can ONLY charge into the flank of a unit if you are in the flank arc when you declare the charge (unless you are a unit with some other special rule: Empire Detachments are the immediately obvious example).

So, you'd have to first position your side units so that they're in the flank arcs of the target unit. If your opponent lets you surround one of hit units that dramatically with three of yours, then it probably doesn't much matter what you're doing-- he's not likely to win, anyway...

Commissar Vaughn
29-12-2006, 07:58
REally? Havnt read any FAQs recently, they always seem to create more problems than they solve!
With regards to your first point the central unit of the elf line is bigger to make sure that thouigh as many charging units as possible at the front only two of them fit...leaving the third only one place to go: the enemy flank. From what ive read i cant see anything that stops it from going to the only target it can see , assuming of course it can see, and has the range etc!

AS to your second point ill have to read the FAQ i Didnt think theyd do anything as drastic as failing the charge, especialy if theres such a tempting target in line of sight, surely youd keep going, i know i would!

Of course with elves against dwarfs the difference in speed means outmanouvering, as in your third paragraph isnt impossible, but your opponent can see it coming earlier, and can try and do something about it.
IF your 3 companies start in close order, 16 across and 2 deep, and advance towards the dwarfs, in turn three you'll be able to declare a charge. In the first movement phase keep the illusion of one line, in the second movement phase, the cnetral unit closes into charge range, the other two immediatly go wide, using their impresive movement to get in the flank arc. Lets try the mathshammer: 24" between target dwarfs and elves, move ten in 1st turn, in 2nd turn central coy moves 7", flanking coys move out by at least 2/3 inches and forwards as far as they can...hopefully all your units will be within 7" of the dwarfs and 2 will be in the flank arcs. If the gap between the central unit and the target is close enough (just dont get within 6"!) you might tempt the dwarfs into a rash charge , which will fail and mean you definatly get the flank charge.

Still tricky but not impossible!

Eldem
30-12-2006, 06:15
sword through the stomach works fore me most of the time. lol.
Personally Arch Mage with book of hoeth is great

Arhalien
30-12-2006, 10:08
Just had a quick read through the thread. This tactic doesn't seem to have been mentioned.
Seer Honour plus Pit of Shades.

mmm, nicey, nicey. Only thing that has reliably killed sutff for me against dwarves. Personally I;d just take an archmage with silver wand, 5 spells means you;re almost certin to roll what you want, and a lvl2 mage would probably also need channeller to reliably cast a 12+ spell, while an archmage can do it easily. Leaves you plenty of points to spend on other stuff.

EvC
30-12-2006, 13:01
Well magic was already mentioned by Von Wibble in his query on how to beat the Dwarfs- with their magical resistance getting a killer spell like Pit of Shades off would be extremely difficult...

NB earlier I said I'd report on how High Elf Infantry work, due to playing with loads of them in a massive game. We have 4 units of Spearmen, Phoenix Guard, 36 Swordmasters... but the only unit of those to get into combat was the Swordmasters, killing one unit of Chaos Hounds! Guess I'll never know...

Von Wibble
30-12-2006, 13:08
To answer questions above - assume 2500pts, and a gunline. Attempts to outshoot them will lead to an army that will fare poorly against many other foes - and I want to use an army that will happily give other armies a good game too...

Problem with magic is that dwarfs with anvil of doom and a few runes of warding will have something like 7 dispel dice, mr, and scrolls. For relatively few points considering the anvil can hurt fast cavalry and counter any manouvre attempts suggested by the commissar.

With magic against dwarfs its all or nothing. Heavy approach will get some nasty spells pulled off and that could well hurt (aforementioned pit of shades for example), whilst no magic will lead to some redundant points spent by the dwarf player thus putting you at a points advantage. But such an approach against any other army will hurt as HE can't afford to let even simple magic missiles through.

Eldem, can you be more specific? Sword through a WS4 T4 3+ save stomach that is cheaper than any of your troops seems unusual to me. Book of Hoeth was my approach in the first game detailed in OP - it got a bit done but didn't justify that many pointsd on that occasion. Worth trying again mind.

Commissar Vaughn
30-12-2006, 13:25
against a gun line a linear formation is safest, as all those bouncing cannon balls and stone throwers will be going through about 2 elves max!

Never played against the anvil tho so I couldnt suggest a counter for it. Maybe if advancing into the valley of death isnt going to work a range war might be in order. a very large number of archers and bolt throwers and magic might do the trick witht their long range especially if you can nuetralise his shooters early on and force his infantry to come to you.
you might not kill many, but you dont have to if you can stay out of his reach!

Tutore
30-12-2006, 13:34
I win 50% against dwarves, it's difficult but not impossible. Here you'll find battle reports (many in italian, two in english) about it: http://www.tutore.org/warhammer/warhammer.html

Von Wibble
31-12-2006, 14:24
I'm afraid I don't speak Italian so only read the english reports. I have to say I would love to face dwarf lists looking like that.

Dwarf units that move towards you?!!

No more than 1 war machine?!!

I think I could give those armies a good game. Not an auto win for HE, a nice balanced, close game. Now try facing a gunline with HE...

Other point on the reports is that those games are 1000pts - a size that imo favours HE. Dwarfs only get a very small number of war machines and can't make their missile superiority count for as much as possession is more important. My tactics in a game of this size would be similar to the commissar's columns - 2 units of 16 spearmen (2 ranks of 8), 2 chariots, 6 silver helms, Eagle, Commander and 10 swordmasters. Probably change for another unit as well...

Reason I don't want to do a range war is covered in OP - although successful, Bretonnians, beasts, wood elves would all laugh this force off.

Varath- Lord Impaler
01-01-2007, 00:53
High Elves need to use tricksy trickery to beat dwarfs.

The Standard dwarf line stands and fires and HATES being pulled out of line. It relies on not having to move and expose weak parts in the line.

The problem with this is that if anything DOES break through its almost all over.

You need to nullify dwarfs shooting and get behind the lines.

Shadow warriors charging the shooting units helps. as does a pair of great eagles.

Try not to use the multiple shot repeater against dwarfs.it dosnt do anything, use straight shot as much as you can.

Tutore
01-01-2007, 12:17
I'm afraid I don't speak Italian so only read the english reports. I have to say I would love to face dwarf lists looking like that.

Dwarf units that move towards you?!!

No more than 1 war machine?!!

I think I could give those armies a good game. Not an auto win for HE, a nice balanced, close game. Now try facing a gunline with HE...

Other point on the reports is that those games are 1000pts - a size that imo favours HE. Dwarfs only get a very small number of war machines and can't make their missile superiority count for as much as possession is more important. My tactics in a game of this size would be similar to the commissar's columns - 2 units of 16 spearmen (2 ranks of 8), 2 chariots, 6 silver helms, Eagle, Commander and 10 swordmasters. Probably change for another unit as well...

Reason I don't want to do a range war is covered in OP - although successful, Bretonnians, beasts, wood elves would all laugh this force off.


Lists have to be balanced; if not, use 4 mages full power dice and you'll destroy everything. But where's the fun?

Mellowrage
01-01-2007, 17:53
Vaughn, you're only safe until a canon or a BT get's to shoot your side, or even worse, a goblin hewer! 16 ranks with T3 models only exists in dwarf generals wettest dream.

Also, what happens if your opponent lines up two or more units of 20 dwarf warriors exactly next to eachother? When you charge both units you'll be outnumbered, the dwarves will most probably get 3 for rank bonus, standard + eventual kills.

Stouty
01-01-2007, 20:25
Well as a dwarf player I can tell you what I don't like facing.

Your bolt throwers. They don't do as much as they do to other races but I still despise them.

Your eagles. Leave off my warmachines damn ye!

Overwhelming magic. Too often you'll hear of how hard it is to get past dwarfen magic defense. Not always so. Too many people place too much face in the +2 DD. Just remember that it is only an extra 2 dice. An archmage with hoeth and a support mage or 2 will still overhwelm the magic defense. Okay not to quite the sam extent but still...

Avoiding my hammer units. Though you'll rarely find the lord with the hammerers/ironbreakers these days when you do just leave it well alone.

Commissar Vaughn
01-01-2007, 21:02
yeah but with long lines its harder to hit the flank...
and thats 16 files not ranks so the goblin hewer still dont do much...

Stouty
01-01-2007, 22:21
If it hits in the flank it does. That's 16D3 strength 4 hits.

elmolovesthekroot
01-01-2007, 22:54
Use Silver Helms and pick a flank to decimate. Then get behind the shooters and overrun them. Don't try to get into a shootout with the thunderers. You will lose.

Elmo

Palatine Katinka
02-01-2007, 03:10
I don't have any experience of playing against Dwarfs as High Elves but I do have experience of playing them as Dark Elves!

I've found a pair of Reaper Bolt Throwers to be great at ripping apart the missile units. Don't target the war machines, you'll just waste shots bouncing off the machine!

Harpies recently prove useful for occupying war machine crew. (Surprising since they failed to rear charge High Elf Archers in the past!) Before anyone says it, I know High Elves don't get Harpies but I suspect a pair of Eagles could do a similar, if not better, job.

Finally, I like Dragons. Most people I know said not to take one because it would just get shot but in my past few games against Dwarfs it has rocked! If there is any terrain near the centre line of the battlefield fly to it and stay out of sight for a turn or at least take cover. That might sound crazy but Large Targets can still claim cover if you can find something big enough. Next, fly over their army so that the Thunderers and Quarrellers can't target you, breathe on something and next turn charge the rear or flank of something not too tough (war machines or missile troops, if you're lucky try Warriors or even Longbeards). Consider where a pursuit move will take you, don't stop in charge range! The shock of a large monster ripping through a unit will hopefully throw them off their game and allow your other units to sneak forward, ignored in favour of the more pressing threat.

alenui
03-01-2007, 09:11
High elves tend to beat dwarfs in my experience. Since you don't like RBT's that maybe part of the problem they are what provides most of the damage from you shooting. Usually high elves have the missile advantage against dwarves as cavalry and shadow warriors can threaten their war machines and your shooting is very capable of taking apart thunderers. Then the dwarves have to come to you which means you can call the shots.

If a dwarf army takes loads of shooting then they should not have many points for blocks of infantry s your cavalry should do lots of damage to the missile line and your shooting will be damaging his missle troops as well.

The worst army in my experience is a mass of clansmen who run straight at you with some miners coming on from behind and a little shooting supporting.

From a magic perspective metal magic is fantastic rule of burning iron give dwarf players nightmares every spell in the lore is great against dwarves.

Von Wibble
03-01-2007, 10:38
People seem to make an assumption here - that eagles can take on war machines. They can't.

A war machine has 4 crewmen and has to lose 3 before firing is effected.

An eagle has 2 attacks, at 3s, 4s. Thats 1 kill if you're lucky. The crew are more likely to get a wound in return. Ciombine with outnumbering and probable hill bonus and thats an eagle running for 1 crewman.

Shadow warriors do slightly better. Only 6 can ever get in contact, so thats 6 attacks, 3 hits, 1 wound, 0.83 after saves I think. Dwarfs in return get 0.75 (assuming 1 was killed). So since outnumbering counters hill bonus thats a draw. The shadow warriors tie up the machine and win through eventually thus making them an option. Assuming the organ gun doesn't get them;)

Cavalry just die to crossbows (these win a missile war vs elves btw - same odds but with a saving throw), thunderers, organ guns etc and will be a priority target btw. My opponents army tends to have roughly one of each war machine (not an organ gun) and 1 unit of crossbows and thunderers, leaving points for 2 units of warriors, slayers, and 1 elite unit, plus characters. Not heavily focused on shooting, but quite capable of wiping out (making insignificant) any units in a position to threaten the war machines.

Alenui, your assumption that a dwarf army with loads of shooting can't afford enough infantry is sadly flawed. The problem here being a dwarf army pays 205pts for a unit of 20 warriors with WS4, T4, 3+ save in combat and Ld9. This unit is therefore very hard to break before characters are added. M3 is not a penalty if your unit doesn't have to move more than a few inches anyway!

In a 2500pt army dwarfs can field enough infantry to do a good job for less than 1000. Add in characters at about 500 and that leaves 1000 on shooty troops (its not like they can't hold their own in combat against all but the best elves anyway!). Unless you spend loads on missile fire yourself (unbalanced so not done as other armies rip this to shreds - but the same dwarf army can be fielded without changes against anyone else).

Arhalien
03-01-2007, 10:42
Von Wibble (great name btw :)),that's what annoys me about dwarves. their units are superb combat troops; resilient, skillful, and very annoying to get rid of, especially with their very hard characters, but they still see the need to back it up with ridiculous amounts of shooting.

alenui
03-01-2007, 21:42
Ok usually i play 2000pts so 2500pts does give the dwarf more troops but it give you more as well.

If your opponent goes for an army like you suggest he doesn't have much magic protection or fighting characters. So with magic (metal lore is awesome) say a L4 and a L2 and the banner of sorcery should do serious damage without you maxing out on magic.

Personally i would take 4 bolt throwers if i had that many points. I know you said you don't like them that much but they are fantastic versus dwarves. Add on the reaver bow commander and a couple of units of archers you are knocking out serious shooting damage especially when added to your magic.

a couple of blocks of infantry one with a commander. Then a couple of units of shadow warriors and then three decent sized units of cavalry (6 or 7)

You should do so much damage to his missile line he should have to come after you espeically if you can get you shadow warriors at his war machines.

If he is shooting your missile troops your cavalry should be fairly free to hit the missile troops and if he targets your cavalry your shooting should get him, either way you should be fine.

Palatine Katinka
03-01-2007, 22:34
People seem to make an assumption here - that eagles can take on war machines. They can't.

Sssh! Don't tell the Dwarfs!;)

Thanks for pointing that out, seems there is something Harpies are better than! Sooo... revised advice...

Don't charge with them! Fly around going "Ooo. I could attack them or them but I think I'll spend another turn manouvering first..." Make the Dwarfs waste their time chasing them, shooting them, using an Anvil so they can only waddle 2". Anything they do to the Eagles is something they are not doing to more threatening units. Yes, I know I'm relying on them making a mistake.