PDA

View Full Version : What do orcs&gobbos do well?



Nagrael
28-12-2006, 05:24
Hello,

I'm thinking of starting a third army and am thinking about O&Gs due to their wackiness. My question is what do they do well? They seem kind of soft with little to no armor and only 4 toughness to make up for it..average stats all around..but they're cheap.

Is that the general idea? A horde army that uses cheap units to swarm the battlefield? Do they have any other perks? What are their biggest weaknesses?

Bingo the Fun Monkey
28-12-2006, 06:21
I'd argue that O/G are a combined arms force now. The standard orc boyz unit can make a good account of itself with the new choppa rules as well as the Waaagh! Still, you have to lots of anything in one area (in the same combat) to really stomp your foes into the ground. The book itself upset the balance from last edition, however it's merely switch in emphasis from certain styles to others. The most important thing is Animosity. It can make your day or ruin your battle. Part of being a good greenskin is being able to think on your feet, constantly adapting your plan to ensure you can follow through with Da Cunnin' Plan. Having many units with different roles goes a long ways toward making this easier. We're a brutal force, but only when cunningly employed.

Goldenwolf
28-12-2006, 07:58
In terms of CC, I'd put Orcs against anything. They won't always win, but if you can make it into battle you'll hammer people.

Animosity has now made it safe for Arrer Boyz, and the new Codex makes them cheap enough to use.

You can assemble any type of force you want though, as cavalry forces are possible with hordes of wolf and spider riders. You can now be a touch more shooty, and the Horde(My fav) is now better that Orcs are smashy again.

blurred
28-12-2006, 11:09
The new OnG are very good in almost every aspect. Waaagh! has ensured that even the basic troopers are quite mobile while the new spells are very nasty and shooting is very destructive due to cheap warmachines. You can go for a fast army with lots of wolf riders and boar boyz (though BB got nerfed big time) or a big force of massive units of foot-sloggers like me. :)

Almost all the units in the new book got better (said boar boyz and common goblins are exceptions). Basic orc boyz got almost too good. T4 and 4+ AS in close combat with 6 points a pop. :eek: Only the biggest and baddest of enemies can take these guys head on. The new squig hoppers are fantastic: unreliable and fragile, but extremely deadly against small units of fast cavalry and skirmishers.

I'd say they have no weaknesses, but maybe that's pushing it a bit. The absence of heavy cavalry and flyers is a slight drawback.

So you thought of starting a greenskin horde? I say go for it. They're better than ever. :)

Dspankdo
28-12-2006, 11:31
Weaknesses? I'd say there only weakness is there lack of 1 fast, heavily armoured and really killy super unit(Which isn't really a weakness as it assures a balance of power).

Griefbringer
28-12-2006, 11:47
They seem kind of soft with little to no armor and only 4 toughness to make up for it.

I would not really consider toughness 4 as soft, at least not if there are any trollslayers around!

athamas
28-12-2006, 12:39
also.. soft [T3] does not mean much if you out number your enemy 4 to 1...

goblin horde here i come....

Braad
28-12-2006, 13:23
Indeed, T4 is quite good, but not when facing poison...
And when I say poison, I mean skinks with blowpipes. I faced some, yesterday. I did pretty well actually, except my giant who lost four wounds by 10 skink javelins. And okay, 25 boyz or 30 gobbo's don't bother that much if six are slain by 24 poisonous darts, but that nasty 220 pts boss with T6 (armour of Mork...) and only light armour is really vulnerable to that.
Some powerfull armour is really a miss considering those point-heavy dudes, if you ask me. So I'dd say the lack of magic armour is a mayor weakness.

On most other aspects, they are pretty powerfull.

John Wayne II
28-12-2006, 14:37
If you are taking Gobbos, stick to the Night Goblin variety. 3pts for a 5+ save in CC is quite good, and you also have to consider that Orcs ignore Goblin panic, so they are still good as throwaway units.
IMO, Orcs and Gobbos are a horde army, so something like 200 models in 2000pts is normal in my eyes. They are a very varied force, having an unit for every occassion, you just have to accept that they can be very random.
And Boar Boys are not as bad as everyone makes them out. With the new frenzy rules Savage Boar Boys improved significantly, and a unit of them can make a mess of almost anything. Also, with the new animosity rules they have become a tad faster.

DeathlessDraich
28-12-2006, 18:08
Animosity has now made it safe for Arrer Boyz, and the new Codex makes them cheap enough to use.

Thats interesting. I still wouldn't add them to my Orc army.:D

What do orcs do well? - Enjoyment! They're weird enough to make you laugh. Also good in combat if they get there. Lastly - sheer variety- many different units.
Gobbos - cheap support plus some wacky models - Doomdiver, Fanatic
Waagh magic can crush whole units but like many things orcish has a sting in the tail. Magic items are similarly hilarious but also effective!

Heretic Burner
28-12-2006, 20:43
It's actually a very decent question to ask. The other armies its often very easy to point out their "niche" - dwarfs are tough as nails defensively but fairly poor offensively, elves being quick but squishy, and chaos being rock hard but low in number. But orcs and goblins?

Well a quick look seems to indicate they are poor in virtually every area of the game. Poor shooting. Terrible magic. The very worst movement phase. No big surprise really since almost every unit in the army has been seriously weakened with the new rules aside from standard orc boyz. The war machines are decent but clearly no match for dwarf or Empire units.

So it seems they aren't really top notch at anything. But its very easy to see what GW attempted to make them good at. They were meant to be offensive. In contrast to the Dwarf army which is meant to take a beating, the O&G army is meant to give a beating. At least in theory. In practice...well that's another story.

The OP noticed that the army isn't particularly tough. Low armour, poor leadership, and susceptibility to poison makes them poor at attrition unless found in great numbers. However, they can't field as many as before either being greatly increased in points values across the board. If you're looking for an effective horde army, I truly don't believe they are one anymore. Cheap units 'swarming the battlefield' just isn't going to work.

As Bingo pointed out they are almost a strictly combined arms force now, though are sorely lacking a decent anvil unit. Cheap hammer units aplenty but with universally poor leadership and only average armour doesn't make them particularly formidable in respect to providing a means to bring these hammer units hard on a trapped enemy. Of course you couldn't pick a worse army to become a combined arms force, O&G are by far the most random in the game which doesn't bode well for plans involving multiple units functioning together.

Which may very well bring us back to the original question. What are they good at? Cheap hammer units - though not as cheap as you might believe.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
28-12-2006, 21:55
Much like the empire the O/G are not the masters of anything, however they have great versatility. Also, T4 and S4 on the first round of combat (and now 4+ armor saves in combat, potentiall) mean they can bring a scrap where they go. It's mostly a case of wearing the enemy down.

I find that using the mobile elements of my army (wolf boyz and chariots, occasionally wyvern boss or boar boyz) to break up and stall the enemy battleline allows me to bring my infantry to bear in a concentrated manner.

I think the niche we fall into is a "fun" army. We're not straightforward, nor are we easy or too hard to use. One can develop as a player using the greenskins due to their versatile utility.

You don't need an anvil unit when you can use sacrifical speedbumps. Just plan it out well and remember the overrun lanes.

blurred
29-12-2006, 11:30
Well a quick look seems to indicate they are poor in virtually every area of the game. Poor shooting. Terrible magic. The very worst movement phase. No big surprise really since almost every unit in the army has been seriously weakened with the new rules aside from standard orc boyz.

Poor shooting? :confused: Terrible magic? :eyebrows: Almost every unit seriously weakened? :wtf:

Ok. Orcs and goblins have BS 3 and just regular or short bows which would indicate that they are not very good at shooting. Wrong. Their war machines are very good. Spear chuckas are cheap and just as accurate as dwarven ones. Rock lobbas (and stone throwers in general) are one of the best war machines in the game IMO; the ability to take down big things and infantry is just too good to pass and its only 70 points. Chariots are good too.

Did you notice that orcs have to use the big waaagh! now? Do you know what that means? Orcs are now possibly the nastiest magic users in the whole warhammer repertoire. Their spells got better, their miscast table is not much worse than the standard one and they have nice bound items to boot.

The comment about seriously weakening almost every unit except for the standard orc boy does not really even need a reply, but what the heck its christmas. I agree that many units went up in points and this rendered some units almost useless. Goblins are utter crap, there's on questioning that. I really can't see what GW was thinking with their change. However, as the price went up some units became real monsters. 4 trolls with 160 points? Yes please (oh wait, these guys got cheaper :D). Skirmishers who move 3d6" and strike 2 S5 attacks each round? Oh god yes! 5-strong cavalry unit with 10 S4 attacks and 10 S5 attacks? WOW! So when some units went from decent to bad (snotlings and boar boyz spring to mind) there are some other units that became really useful. And you said there are no good hammer-units?

I'm sorry if I sounded harsh, but IMO the new OnG book is balanced and though it is true that the greenskins don't have clear weaknesses or strengths they are able to dominate any phase in the game.

Psychodelica
29-12-2006, 16:46
Orcs do well in the humour department. ;)

No, but seriously, they are fun to play and fun to meet since they are funny at the core, and that gotta mean something.

When I meet orcs with my Wood Elves that T4 you're calling soft really is my greatest problem in terms of hand to hand. When meeting creatures with S3 that one level higher toughness is to die for.

Corrupt
29-12-2006, 17:35
Hello,
Is that the general idea? A horde army that uses cheap units to swarm the battlefield? Do they have any other perks? What are their biggest weaknesses?

Big weaknesses?
Ork boys will bounce off disciplined spearman regiments quite often, especially if supported by archers.
Fear elves!!!

Discpline can be a problem with units being delyaed by anamoisity(sp??)
But once your ladz are engaged your sorted if theres enough of em

Heretic Burner
29-12-2006, 20:21
Poor shooting? :confused: Terrible magic? :eyebrows: Almost every unit seriously weakened? :wtf:

Nothing confusing about it. O&G have been absolutely crushed in almost all of their basic units.


Ok. Orcs and goblins have BS 3 and just regular or short bows which would indicate that they are not very good at shooting. Wrong. Their war machines are very good. Spear chuckas are cheap and just as accurate as dwarven ones. Rock lobbas (and stone throwers in general) are one of the best war machines in the game IMO; the ability to take down big things and infantry is just too good to pass and its only 70 points. Chariots are good too.

In other words their shooting is terrible. Short range bows at BS 3 really don't do a whole lot, particularly when 1/3 of the time you are shooting even worse than that stat would indicate. War machines are decent, as mentioned in the post, but again nowhere near equal to those of dwarfs and Empire, again mentioned in my post. Spear chuckas are cheap, but absolutely do not compare whatsoever to dwarf equivalents. A rune of penetrating alone makes them possibly the best war machine in the game. Rock lobbas are quite often passed by the armies that have them for the simple reason other war machines are far superior. As for chariots, I'm not sure what they have to do with shooting unless you are talking about the bow shots which are certainly nothing that will sway anybody's opinion to think its strong by any means.


Did you notice that orcs have to use the big waaagh! now? Do you know what that means? Orcs are now possibly the nastiest magic users in the whole warhammer repertoire. Their spells got better, their miscast table is not much worse than the standard one and they have nice bound items to boot.

It means:

1) Goblin shamans have a very difficult time casting their high casting value spells that dominate the list.

2) They certainly do NOT have anywhere near the "nastiest" magic users, falling well behind say a 2nd gen Slann. I can make up things too.

3) Their spells are not better. Far from it. They're pretty much equal or have serious draw backs now (ie Waaagh moves war machine crews). They've lost one of their most powerful spells completely (Mork Save Us). At best they equal 6th edition. At best.

4) They have 2 bound items. Each having a chance to be debilitating to the user every time used. No they are far from "nice" particularly with respect to Vampire Count items or Empire items.

5) Of course, the biggest problem of all should be obvious. Animosity gives the equivalent of free dispel scrolls to your opponent. Throughout the game you can expect each of your shamans to fail at least once, losing their dice completely and crippling your magic phase. An absolutely terrible blow that makes O&G magic as uncompetitive as it comes.


The comment about seriously weakening almost every unit except for the standard orc boy does not really even need a reply, but what the heck its christmas. I agree that many units went up in points and this rendered some units almost useless. Goblins are utter crap, there's on questioning that. I really can't see what GW was thinking with their change. However, as the price went up some units became real monsters. 4 trolls with 160 points? Yes please (oh wait, these guys got cheaper :D). Skirmishers who move 3d6" and strike 2 S5 attacks each round? Oh god yes! 5-strong cavalry unit with 10 S4 attacks and 10 S5 attacks? WOW! So when some units went from decent to bad (snotlings and boar boyz spring to mind) there are some other units that became really useful. And you said there are no good hammer-units?

Yes goblins are terrible, no question. Savage orcs, also ghastly being so expensive now and completely random. Trolls? They will certainly find no place in my army and a quick glance at the army lists posted here show they won't find a place in the majority of other armies either. Hardly a no brainer. Squig hoppers are decent sure (personally the squig herds seem superior in my view) though so where the old squig unit used properly. Boar cavalry? Seriously? They are almost universally seen as a major liability having increased so greatly in price. Snotling have become pretty much unused, absolutely terrible units that have lost what little value they had before. Not to mention the loss of 2 for 1 chariots, weaker fanatics, poorer black orcs, poorer big 'unz, weaker pump wagons, weaker...hmmm, yes it does seem virtually every unit in the army is weaker. To nobody's surprise having your army hammered in every way will make that army do significantly less well in tournaments. So far, O&G ARE doing significantly worse.


I'm sorry if I sounded harsh, but IMO the new OnG book is balanced and though it is true that the greenskins don't have clear weaknesses or strengths they are able to dominate any phase in the game.

Well fortunately we don't have to rely on opinions to judge whether armies are 'balanced'. Results show us whether or not that is true without bias. The results show us O&G are NOT balanced, far from it. They're a third tier army and anybody considering them should have that information available to them ahead of time.

corvo
30-12-2006, 01:55
ORc and Goblins are a very hard army to work with sometimes. It is an army built for combined unit tactics, and with their low initiative, they do need to get the charge against most opponants. Obviously with their average movement they need to rely on the WAAGHH and bait units, and with their ability in combat, which is not a certain game winner, you do need to ensure that your main units are supported.

Now the big problem is that for O&G to work, your units need to work together, and there is a 1 in 3 chance that they will do something that you did not want them too. I have often had either the support unit, or the main combat unit fail a vital animosity roll, leaving the other stranded, and delaying my offensive, giving my opponant the initiative. I have had bad WAAGHH rolls, leaving me short, and being charged instead. O&G can be brutal, with bait units that won't panic anyone, and the choppa rule on cheap models, and lots of fast cav, but this all relies on your luck. A few missplaced failed animosity rolls, and your entire battle line can fall to pieces.

Oh yeah, when you are looking for units to support a charge, go with the chariots. Trolls can be tempting, and small boyz units sometimes look good, but chariots take up less space, while trolls are stupid, and boyz have a 1 in 3 chance of breaking the battle line.

Big Boss Gerblash
30-12-2006, 02:30
my simple two bit answer would be Unexpected the orcs and gobos do the unexpected well be it good or bad they will be unexpected the trick is take lots, have fun win or loose. I am very happy with the new book as many things that made me shelf them for 6th (thus starting my 10 year foray to 40k) have returned I can field redicoulous amounts of squigs, and my old school night gobos look right next to the 7th edition ones I didn't have to buy a single model for my 2000 pt army! So far I am undefeated in 4 games and I use trolls

Chicago Slim
30-12-2006, 03:11
Big weaknesses?
Ork boys will bounce off disciplined spearman regiments quite often, especially if supported by archers.
Fear elves!!

First off, I'm not sure I see why orc boyz would "bounce off" of spearmen: assuming you mean, say, Empire spears vs. Orc Boyz with choppa, light armor and shield: the spears get 10 attacks, half hit, 1/3 wound, half punch armor, for 1 expected wound per 12-- that is, you'd be lucky to score a single wound with the spear. The orcs, for their part, are half hit, half wound, 2/3 punch armor, or 1 EW per 6 (still lucky to get a single hit). Both units are Ld 7, so in all, it comes down to dice: most likely, the combat will be a draw, or one side will win by one (maybe 2) points; if the fight isn't near the general (or led by a character), then the loser has a pretty good chance of breaking. But there's not much reason to think that the spearmen win that, in the first place.

Unless by "disciplined spearmen" you mean "elves", who cost about twice as much as the Orcs described above... As I've said before, all other things being equal, the odds ought to favor the more expensive unit in a straight-up fight...


One thing that I think has people a bit... put off by the new Orc and Goblin book is that it doesn't make them the new superpower. I think that, in the past couple of years, we've all gotten used to the inflationary trends in the army lists: the most recent book rocks the house, until the next book comes out. The OG book doesn't perpetuate that inflation. It's my hope (based on what I've heard about the new Empire book) that this is part of a larger trend...

The new OG book has a lot of flavor, some good options for making fun, balanced armies. Personally, I'm building up my stock of regular old Orc Boyz, to build a horde army around them: they're cheap enough to have a half dozen big (25-30) units of Orc Boyz in a 2000 point army, and still have some kick-butt characters and a trick or two up your sleeve (be it Trolls, Squigs, Night Goblins, or whatever...)

Also, consider the change in special characters: the OG book has a LOT of them, and NONE take up multiple character slots. You want to run a bunch of night goblins? Bring Skarsnik, and all of your NGs get to pretend they're fast cavalry (flee-rally-move). Want to emphasize elites? Lead your army with Gorbad Ironclaw, and bring as many 10-point units of Big Uns as you want, with an 18" radius on Gorbad's Ld10 generalship. This includes Savage Orc Boar Big Uns-- quite pricy at 31-33 points per, for a lousy armor save, but they hit INCREDIBLY hard, with FOUR attacks per model at S5 on a charge... Fill your special slots with these (at less than 200 points per unit, with full command) and watch them smash big holes in anything that gets in front of them.

This reminds me a bit of the all-Forest Spirits army: it's a neat idea, but it's very limited and very weak, unless you bring Drycha as its general... The special character provides an advantage to a particular tactic or composition choice. I see a bit of this happening in the OG book, now: the special characters are special, not just because they can wreck whole battalions of enemy infantry unaided, but because they change the way your army works...

uatu13
31-12-2006, 10:30
What do Orcs do well? Not much anything with the new crappy rules! I played a game with them today and had about 500 points worth of guys (from a 2500 point game) rendered useless the first two turns from animosity. What a terrible rule, what was GW thinking?! Why would I want to play an army that 1/6 of the time does absolutely nothing, and are completely unreliable? I'd rather have an all stupid army for god's sake! What a shame, because they were so damn good last edition...

bluesky322
31-12-2006, 10:37
thats not a new rule did you ever play them before that

uatu13
31-12-2006, 21:31
Yes, I know animosity existed in the previous edition, but it was much more manageable to deal with, and actually added to the feel of orcs.

First off, 6th ed. animosity had a variety of outcomes, one of which was the unit charging the enemy, not sitting there and doing absolutely nothing. This added to the overall fun of playing orcs since you weren't sure what they'd do. Now you're just guaranteed your army to be worthless 1/6 of the time, which is pure crap.

Most importantly, black orcs in the 6th quelled animosity by allowing you to reroll animosity test for units in 6"! This made black orcs actually useful. Now they're a complete liability to take since they actually kill your own guys to restore order. Add this to the fact that when you Waagh, which is a good idea, if you get 1's for animosity no matter what the unit pretty much self-destructs (especially smaller units like boar boys and goblin fast cav). In this past game I played I lost 4/6 boar boys, 4/8 spider riders, and 5/8 more spider riders because they squabbled during a Waaagh. How can that be reasonable?

I consider a rule to be pretty crappy if it causes hundreds of points of your army to kill itself before the battle even gets started!

Orcs pretty much suck now. Goblins cost too much to field in any reasonable manner, their WG is total rubbish (YAY I can get a 3+ save on my 200 point warboss), and there are tons of armies that do CC and Horde Armying better. Sad...

Chicago Slim
01-01-2007, 16:59
So, you had one unusually bad set of rolls, and therefore the rules must be unbalanced? Come, now, you can do better than that.

First off in retort, 6th ed animosity guaranteed that a given unit could be expected to do nothing of use slightly less than 1/6 of the time (1/36 attack friends, 1/36 charge if there was something to charge, 4/36 do nothing at all). The current Animosity rules are still a thing to work around (you'll want to commit two units to any serious objective, just like before), but the potential upside to them is much, much more powerful now.

Any well-designed unit of ranked up infantry will handle the animosity during a Waagh (or a Black Orc quelling animosity) without much trouble, because (at 3-7 points per model) they have fodder to spare. Cavalry don't, which is just one more reason why Orcs and Goblins are really not designed to depend on their cavalry. They're an infantry-based army, with some cavalry and some shooting to tip the balance.


But, if you're committed to your point of view that they suck now, uatu, then drop me a PM: I might be interested in buying some used models...

Heretic Burner
02-01-2007, 00:34
Completely agree uatu13. I genuinely believe that the game design thought rolling a 6 for animosity was actually a positive thing. Thus they felt no problem in making a roll of 1 even worse than previously. Sadly O&G get hammered on both rolls. They are simply too crippled in the movement phase to be very competitive in the new edition.

With the vast increase in points almost across the board they don't even have the advantage of a point discount because of the animosity. They're simply hit with this major disadvantage forcing O&G players to deal with worse animosity with fewer means to mitigate the problem.

And while losing hundreds of points to animosity is nasty in itself, the problem is compounded at higher point value games. It extraordinarily difficult to maintain any type of battle line in a 2K game, I assure you in a 4K game you'll have major holes in your line due to absolutely no fault of the player whatsoever.

How can a product this poor get through quality control? The first time any experience player views the new animosity rules they simply have to be given some pause. I feel your pain uatu13 and truly hope we can have a dark elf style revision before too long. I hope you are as fortunate as I am and have several opponents available to you that allow you to use the old vastly superior 6th edition book.

Crazy Harborc
02-01-2007, 02:23
Orcs are no good now??? Well, I guess that means we (not just me) who play Orcs are super players.

Thanks to rolling two 6s upon checking animosity at the start of turn 2, I had 2 units of da boys within charge range after they did their animosity D6 for distance.

Several opponents (besides me) play Orcs from time to time. Sorry some of you want a rewrite already. We all have been doing at least as well as we did during 6th.

Highborn
02-01-2007, 03:47
Are Orcs ever going to be a highly competitive army?

I think they're balanced and fun, and have a good chance of winning. Orcs rely too much on the dice to be a powerful tournament army - noone ever rolls average, after all. You might get a game rolling above average for animosity, and a game rolling below average. The game rolling below average will kill your chances of a win.

As a friendly army though, O&G are great fun due to this randomness. They could just as easily massacre as be massacred. For their points cost, they're hard as nails in close combat and have the numbers to back up a good assault.

If your boys charge forward accidentally due to a WAAAGH, great. Don't move them in the Movement phase, and the rest of your army catches up. If it moves them into charge range, either back them up or charge them in. The rest of your army shouldn't be more than D6" behind, and your enemy can't flank you unless they want to be flanked themselves in turn. It's not that big a negative. Squabbling happens, but you're getting a S4, T4 rank and file trooper for 6 points. My Dryads think twice before charging Orcs, and there's not too many 6 point core troops who can make that claim.

Muncher666
02-01-2007, 15:17
Why does everyone keep putting the hate on Great Cave Squigs? I find the little beggars so appealing and want opinions. Also, someone was suggesting to me that they provide no mounted save and make the unit not count as a single character for shooting purposes. Is this the case?

Thanks,
Allan. (newbie!)

Palatine Katinka
02-01-2007, 18:22
The chance of charging the enemy from animosity has increased, the chance of charging yourself has gone.

Black Orcs are heavily armed and armoured and still cheaper than T3 unarmoured Witch Elves. Which can take a hit from a Mortar better? :mad:

Savage Orc Boarboyz are great, especially Big Unz. Remember that the Boars get Frenzy too. :eek:

Goblins may be more expensive but Night Goblin Fanatic armies were no fun to play against. Orcs AND Goblins not 18 whirlying deaths and some goblins in cloaks to mop up the mess. Given that, the new nets are fantastic.

If you think Boarboyz are too expensive consider the look on a players face when you kill the General of his Necromancer army on turn one! (They advance, you Waaagh! and charge.)

To round up, the Orc & Goblin army can still be very nasty but it might take some time to get your head round. Every time a new book comes out people say one of two things. Either "This is broken!" or "This is rubbish!" but usually, a few months down the line, people figure out how to deal with it. ;)

Crazy Harborc
02-01-2007, 19:58
Many, many/heck likely MOST lifetime wargamers are more concerned with their army looking good and having fun during a game, than their win/loss record. For my first 10 years of wargaming, my focus was on maintaining a high win record.

Since then I've learned to relax and enjoy the game as it's happening Wins are still good but fun is now my main goal. Not saying my view is any more the best one than any other....just my 2 cents worth.

Palatine Katinka
02-01-2007, 20:02
Well said.

Psychodelica
03-01-2007, 02:15
Many, many/heck likely MOST lifetime wargamers are more concerned with their army looking good and having fun during a game, than their win/loss record. For my first 10 years of wargaming, my focus was on maintaining a high win record.

Since then I've learned to relax and enjoy the game as it's happening Wins are still good but fun is now my main goal. Not saying my view is any more the best one than any other....just my 2 cents worth.

Amen to that. Though I've never been concerned with my win-lose-ratio. Then I would have quit the hobby years ago.

Orcs and gobbos are good, old-fashioned fun. That makes it a good army.

Paulus
03-01-2007, 02:22
As a former O&G fanatic upon getting into the hobby many many moons ago (4th edition I think) I can safely say, that if thing's haven't changed to much & you are more bothered about having fun than winning (although when you do win it can be pretty emphatic), they will provide you with the most "fun" army to play as/against in the game.

adreal
03-01-2007, 04:43
The chance of charging the enemy from animosity has increased, the chance of charging yourself has gone.

Black Orcs are heavily armed and armoured and still cheaper than T3 unarmoured Witch Elves. Which can take a hit from a Mortar better? :mad:

Savage Orc Boarboyz are great, especially Big Unz. Remember that the Boars get Frenzy too. :eek:

Goblins may be more expensive but Night Goblin Fanatic armies were no fun to play against. Orcs AND Goblins not 18 whirlying deaths and some goblins in cloaks to mop up the mess. Given that, the new nets are fantastic.

If you think Boarboyz are too expensive consider the look on a players face when you kill the General of his Necromancer army on turn one! (They advance, you Waaagh! and charge.)

To round up, the Orc & Goblin army can still be very nasty but it might take some time to get your head round. Every time a new book comes out people say one of two things. Either "This is broken!" or "This is rubbish!" but usually, a few months down the line, people figure out how to deal with it. ;)

I never thought you could do that with SOBB, maybe that's why they cost so much...

Still O&G are a fun army, not as competitive as say Chaos or Vampire Counts, but still able to win fairly well, sure they arn't a top tier army, but have they ever been?

Heretic Burner
03-01-2007, 04:55
Are Orcs ever going to be a highly competitive army?


Highly unlikely. Senior GW staff simply no longer have a Greenskin lover amongst them. Both 40K and Fantasy Orcs have suffered greatly in their latest books. It is simply well known that the designers tend to have preferred armies that get disproportionate "love" from designers that favour that particular army (see months on end of Chaos in White Dwarf or the atrociously broken Iron Warriors list in 40K). This is most clear in the recent release of the O&G and Eldar books, quite obviously the Eldar codex was treated with far more reverence than the abysmal O&G book.

Having unexpected results in games does not make those games necessarily fun. It just makes then unpredictable. The designers seem to have forgotten this basic fact: players desire to play the game and while there are variations within the armies in the game it is expected that by and large they'll follow the basic rules to some degree. Effectively removing tactics from the movement phase and magic phase simply drains the fun out of the army. This board and other prominant O&G message forums are full of disappointed O&G players. O&G haven't been truly competitive for a long, long time and yet this release seems to have truly soured many players. Why? Personally I believe your typical O&G player will tolerate a weaker than average list, but tolerating a very weak list drained of enjoyment just proved to be too much to take. Ebay has seen a lot of green painted miniatures put up lately.

Matthew Ward simply wasn't up to the job. That much is certain. A brutal book by any standard with dreadful play balance and ghastly holes in the rules requiring a FAQ a mile long. It becomes very clear GW might need new blood, a designer with a passion for the greenskins as Alessio has for Skaven. This new blood also needs a steady, experienced hand at building the army book so mistakes such as Matthew Ward's won't be repeated.

The in house testing must also be held accountable. Alessio has stated that this type of testing is more trusted than other sources, however other sources have repeatedly been able to find gaping holes in armies at a moment's glance - evidently missed despite weeks of play testing.

Yup, the hole left behind by Rick Priestly simply wasn't filled and O&G have truly suffered for it. It isn't out of the realm of possibility for this error to be fixed, but it will take a certain amount of courage to admit the mistake and take the steps to fix them. It has happened before, it can happen again. But will it?

Multifarious
03-01-2007, 11:35
First off, I'm not sure I see why orc boyz would "bounce off" of spearmen: assuming you mean, say, Empire spears vs. Orc Boyz with choppa, light armor and shield: the spears get 10 attacks, half hit, 1/3 wound, half punch armor, for 1 expected wound per 12-- that is, you'd be lucky to score a single wound with the spear. The orcs, for their part, are half hit, half wound, 2/3 punch armor, or 1 EW per 6 (still lucky to get a single hit). Both units are Ld 7, so in all, it comes down to dice: most likely, the combat will be a draw, or one side will win by one (maybe 2) points; if the fight isn't near the general (or led by a character), then the loser has a pretty good chance of breaking. But there's not much reason to think that the spearmen win that, in the first place.

10 attacks, hitting on 4+ (1/2), wounding on 5+ (1/3) ,ignoring saves on 4+ (1/2) = 10/12s of a wound. (0.83)
Assuming still 5. Hitting on 4+ (1/2), wounding on 3+ (2/3), ignoring saves on 5/6. (Orcs being strength four first round) = 50/36. (1.38)

Seems to heavily favour the orks.

Briohmar
03-01-2007, 12:20
Many, many/heck likely MOST lifetime wargamers are more concerned with their army looking good and having fun during a game, than their win/loss record. For my first 10 years of wargaming, my focus was on maintaining a high win record.

Since then I've learned to relax and enjoy the game as it's happening Wins are still good but fun is now my main goal. Not saying my view is any more the best one than any other....just my 2 cents worth.

Here Here!!!
I've only won one game ever with my Orcs and goblins, and I've had them for 4 editions of the game now, but I've never failed to have a good time playing with them. Its why I've kept them around for so long. I'm never disappointed when my boys run away, I expect it to happen. I'm more often exstatic when they do something right for a change: like when my goblin boss with Wollapa's One hit wonder killing a Bretty paladin, or a fanatic ripping through a big scary chaos spawn. I don't care if my battle line looks a total shambles, it is sort of supposed to. These are big green fighting machines, not disciplined soldiers, like the coneheads in drag. I loved the story in the 5th edition army book about Azhag the slaughterer watching the battle from his Wyvern remarking about how his entire army did not but squabble, charge, and run. Its what makes orcs orcs. I do miss the background (5th ed army book) to the doom diver though, the thought of the doom diver originating as an aerial reconnaissance platform is just to funny to ever forget, especially when it went on to say that casualties were less than you'd expect as goblins are particularly resillient.
I'm kind of bummed that my 'ard grots now cost one point more than they did, waaaah!!! Now I have to figure out a way to save 30 points now, oh wait, I just did, my orcs got cheaper and better. I now have a net of 20 points I can put to something else, hmm, I think that just about covers the rise in price of my boar boys. See, It still balances out. I have a nearly identical army, for almost exactly the same points cost, it just functions slightly differently than it did, oh and I can now take four heroes again, before I could only ever manage 3 or six.