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DeathlessDraich
28-12-2006, 13:51
This may seem as if it's exploiting a rules loophole. It probably is!:D

A Warplightning Cannon "follows all the moves for chariots" -Skaven pg28.
A chariot "which moves through any difficult terrain sustains D6S6 hits" - BRB pg 62

However a Warmachine does not 'move' but has to 'pivot' when it shoots.
Therefore if the barrel of a Warplightning Cannon hits part of woods when it pivots to shoot,
OR if the cannon is deployed in a wood,
it should not suffer D6S6 hits as it pivots to shoot.

Is 'pivot' considered a 'move' for chariots?

Thanks in advance

ZomboCom
28-12-2006, 14:08
Yes, a pivot is a move.

Festus
28-12-2006, 16:37
Hi

This may seem as if it's exploiting a rules loophole. It probably is!:D
Quoted for truth:eyebrows:

Festus

DeathlessDraich
28-12-2006, 17:52
Yes, a pivot is a move.

Unofficially maybe but there are 3 outlined types of moves or manoeuvres (flying is dealt with separately) in the Movement chapter:
1) Turn
2) Wheel
3) March

Movement straight ahead is too obvious but is also mentioned as an accepted move.

The term 'pivot' is not explained but is used in fleeing moves, pursuits, monsters and warmachines.
I don't recall seeing a section or paragraph that explains a pivot although players tend to generally agree that the unit's centre remains unmoved in a pivot.

Festus: Yes, this is rules exploitation so refute it please.

The rules for chariot uses the term 'move'.
Should that be interpreted (as is commonly done in Warhammer) as 1 of the 3 designated manoeuvres which is termed as 'move' or should it encompass any movement as in real life.

Consider a shooting skirmisher unit. Each model must pivot to shoot 360 degrees but it is accepted that they have not 'moved'.

Festus
28-12-2006, 19:13
Hi

Consider a shooting skirmisher unit. Each model must pivot to shoot 360 degrees but it is accepted that they have not 'moved'.
Nope, negative: A skirmisher may see and shoot in 360° and thus he doesn't have to move to shoot at something in his back. He simply has no back :)

Festus

intellectawe
29-12-2006, 02:07
I thought models like warmachines have a 360 range also. I always assumed that the pivot was a formality to make the model look like its shooting. I mean, a warmachine that is entrenched does NOT lose its entrenched status due to pivoting, yet it loses the status if it moves in anyway. So at least in this aspect of the game, pivoting isn't "moving" per se. I know the warp cannon isn't a warmachine, but one area of the rules says pivoting isn't "moving", so would it be bad to apply it here since both examples are very similar?

If I played someone, I wouldn't mind them pivoting warp cannons/chariots in woods without taking any damage. I don't see any issue with this at all.

-edit-

Actually I take that back. I just answered another post with directly countered what I just said here. I am an idiot. The rule for warmachine entrenchment is an exception to the pivot rule. Thus, I cannot apply it to any other case. I would actually now tell my opponent if you move a chariot-like model in a wood in anyway, even pivoting, it would take damage.

Festus
29-12-2006, 09:15
Hi

I am an idiot. ... I would actually now tell my opponent if you move a chariot-like model in a wood in anyway, even pivoting, it would take damage.
Funny how things come together, isn't it? :angel:

But seriously: If my oponent made me do this when playing Skaven, I'd probably pack my minis and leave. I have little time to waste on *idiots*.

Honestly, even Skaven will be smart enough to clear any bit of forest needed to operate their Warmachine when they put it in there, if they manage to bring it there in the first place....

Festus

DeathlessDraich
29-12-2006, 11:34
An overwhelming majority here. :p
Intellactawe: A WLC is a warmachine. It's only treated as a chariot for movement.
Interesting comparison with Dwarven Entrenchment which actually solves the problem!

"An entrenched war machine can be pivoted to fire but if it moves in any other way"

From which it can be inferred that a 'pivot' is a 'move'.

SkaGoblin
29-12-2006, 14:16
Also I was under the impression that war machines can't fire if they have moved (else why would anyone take Galloper Guns?) If pivoting counts as moving, then a war machine could only ever fire straight ahead.

DeathlessDraich
29-12-2006, 14:50
Valid pt. Ska Goblin although I think the dwarf rules sort of answers this.
Over to you Festus:p

Flame
29-12-2006, 14:55
Galloper guns cannot move and fire.

mageith
29-12-2006, 15:33
Also I was under the impression that war machines can't fire if they have moved ... If pivoting counts as moving, then a war machine could only ever fire straight ahead.
"In the shooting phase, a player may freely pivot a war machine to face any direction he likes before shooting. Apart from this, a war machine may not be fired in a turn the machine itself, or even just its crew moved." (85)

Clearly then pivoting, for a war machine is movement, but its an excepted and accepted movement for shooting purposes.

intellectawe
29-12-2006, 15:56
But this goes for move-or-fire units or archers/handgunners.

If I move ANY model in the unit for ANY reaons, the unit cannot fire. I wish I could turn my hand gunners and still fire to shoot at incoming flankers. I wish! I didn't "move" the unit anywhere, I just turned them around, and this STILL counts as moving.

One example of how turning/pivoting a unit counts as moving.

But now a move-or-fire war cannon is immune from this? I am not even talking about the "chariot" like rules the warp cannon has anymore. If the warp cannon is move or fire, and it pivots, the rule that would prevent it from firing would be written right in its rules. All warmachines, and I assume warp cannons also?, have a move-or-fire rule, BUT what the exception to this rule is that a warmachine can be pivoted to aim at the enemy and still fire.

Thus another example of how pivoting is moving.

Chariots/warpcannons, moving in terrain, would take damage if you turned it to aim at something else, as the clause for pivoting is given for the "move-or-fire" aspect of the model, and not the aspect of Chariot damage.

DeathlessDraich
29-12-2006, 21:45
Looks as if there's more to discuss here. There are inconsistencies in the rules.
1) From the pg Mageith quoted:" A player may freely pivot a warmachine etc Apart from this ... may not be fired etc".

If a DE player deploys a bolt thrower in difficult terrain where the Bolt thrower has LOS e.g. muddy grounds, the bolt thrower will not count as moving through difficult terrain when it pivots. In fact it will not count as moving at all as far as shooting is concerned.

This is a general rule for all warmachines and must apply to a WLC.
i.e. a WLC can shoot while in woods.

2) The second part of the problem: Does the WLC then suffer hits when it has to pivot in woods.
Well, we've agreed that pivot is a form of movement and I tend to think the chariot must suffer hits

BUT
This is movement during shooting - a special type of movement which does not incur penalties for difficult terrain and ALL warmachines can "freely pivot" for this specialised move, even in difficult terrain.

Can this special move be construed to be identical to the 'move' mentioned in the chariot rules which causes D6 hits?

mageith
29-12-2006, 22:51
Can this special move be construed to be identical to the 'move' mentioned in the chariot rules which causes D6 hits?

MOVEMENT: "...the same rules govern all movement..." (11)

CHARIOT: "In effect, chariots can turn to face any direction (pivoting around to the centre of the model) at any point during their move and as many times as they like without reduction to movement.
...
OBSTACLES AND TERRAIN: If a chariot moves through any kind of difficult terrain...the chariot sustains D6 S6 hits." (62)

To watch a pivoting chariot, it clearly moves through difficult terrain even though there is no reduction to its movement...Apply...immediately...as the chariot touches the terrain..." (62)

Lots of times the term Move is capitalized when it clearly refers to the Move stat. When its not capitalized it may or may not refer to the Move stat.

intellectawe
29-12-2006, 23:12
Yet another 7th edition nerf of Skaven. Which is good :)

DeathlessDraich
30-12-2006, 11:51
I agree with the latter part of your post - a pivoting chariot is moving.


MOVEMENT: "...the same rules govern all movement..." (11)


A mistake by the writers because the same rules cannot govern ALL movement. unless the 'movement' mentioned above specifically refers to movement in the Movement phase only.

There are exceptions to movement rules as in the pivot during shooting as you pointed out in post 12.

So my question still remains unresolved: The pivoting of a warmachine is a specialised move. Is this special move covered anywhere else other than warmachines and is it correct to assume the shooting pivot (for warmachines) to be part of the generalised 'move'.

An exception cannot be part of the norm.

mageith
30-12-2006, 18:28
A mistake by the writers because the same rules cannot govern ALL movement. unless the 'movement' mentioned above specifically refers to movement in the Movement phase only.

It's not a mistake by the writers. It's THE GENERAL rule. Further in the same section the writers refer to the numerous exceptions to this GENERAL rule.

We can only do what the rules say we can do.
Once the rules say we can do something, we can ALWAYS do it.
Unless there is a specific exception.
GW can write any rule they want.

The above is how game rules and design works. You won't find it in the BRB, of course. Actually I've never read it anyplace but on these forums. It just is.

All games need GENERAL rules. All semi-simulation/representative games like WFB need LOTS of Exceptions.



So my question still remains unresolved: The pivoting of a warmachine is a specialised move. Is this special move covered anywhere else other than warmachines and is it correct to assume the shooting pivot (for warmachines) to be part of the generalised 'move'.

It's an EXCEPTION to the general rule, is all. And not really the big of one or that uncommon of one. Nearly all models can pivot, all units pivot under certain occassions, models can pivot within in units. They all count as movement. HOW they count is different and what they effect is different.

So chariots can pivot with no movement penalty. No one is arguing otherwise. But what they do when they pivot is MOVE. Since they move and movement causes a damage penalty on chariots, they roll for the damage.



An exception cannot be part of the norm.
I'm not sure what you are saying here. The term "the norm" is a real-life concept. In games the norm is determined by the some game designer. In real-life we discover the norm by coming up against it. If our nose is full of burgers we pick it--at least up to the age of five. After that we're expected to know that's not "the norm". In games, the rules come first and if the rules state picking your nose is illegal, to pick your nose is cheating. But if a later rules says: "To cast this spell, you must pick your nose.", then its perfectly fine and legal and even the norm for that occassion.

Hate to be picky, but your statement doesn't make sense in WFB.

Crispus
31-12-2006, 00:20
To start, I have to go off topic. Almost fell of my chair laughing when i read this. Is it a signature waiting to happen?

"To cast this spell, you must pick your nose."

On topic: I have to agree that a WLC pivoting in a wood would suffer hits. Does it really matter whether a pivot in the shooting phase is a "normal" or "special" move? It's still a move.
The rules for chariots moving through woods does not specify that chariots only suffer hits from a "normal" move and not from "special" move. We must then asume that it covers all kinds of moves. Of course, chariots can't perform any "special" moves, but no exception is given.

Slayhem
31-12-2006, 00:27
FWIW, and this may not be much since I'm tired and slightly drunk, I think that if the rule says that they are damaged when they move "through" difficult terrain then pivoting isn't enough. Pivoting strikes me as being a case of moving "in" terrain, not "through". The "chariot" doesn't traverse any difficult terrain.

intellectawe
31-12-2006, 01:31
FWIW, and this may not be much since I'm tired and slightly drunk, I think that if the rule says that they are damaged when they move "through" difficult terrain then pivoting isn't enough. Pivoting strikes me as being a case of moving "in" terrain, not "through". The "chariot" doesn't traverse any difficult terrain.

If you are going this route...

Take a chariot model and place it in terrain. Put a finger next to the front of the chariot. Call your finger a "tree". Then pivot the chariot through your finger, or "tree". You can't, because the chariot is trying to "move" through terrain.

If any object moves from a point to another point, it has to move through something! Objects move through air, space, matter, whatever.

Slayhem
31-12-2006, 13:35
I am aware of that line of reasoning.

Grontik
14-06-2008, 16:43
If a chariot pivots on the charge and that pivot ends up contacting a unit in a clipping way how would you resolve that?

][nquist0r
15-06-2008, 00:08
enemy in the way!

The Red Scourge
16-06-2008, 10:02
Pivot occurs in the shooting phase. Therefore it is not a move.

As opposed to say magical movement in the magic phase e.g. Unseen Lurker, which specifies, that is treated like a normal move.

Should barrel "bump" into enemy units, this should be ignored untill the pivot is finished, and then check for 1" distance to enemy units.

BTW: Stop acting like you've got a big stick stuck where the sun don't shine and try winning the game by tactics instead of discussing rules. You might just get more respect and friends for it ; )