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View Full Version : How many Beast Charriots before they are cheese



Sashu
29-12-2006, 00:32
Simple poll, how many charriots would you have to see in a beastmen army before you would cry cheese, or start docking it comp score wise. Right now, I'm planning on 4. Any comments are welcome.

kyussinchains
29-12-2006, 00:39
depends on the size of the game you're playing, I've got 4 chariots, and I have used them all before, but any more than that and it gets a bit cheesy

Snotteef
29-12-2006, 00:45
Without setting a points value this question is quite impossible to answer. Please give us some more info!

TheWarSmith
29-12-2006, 02:56
I'm just going to assume he's talking about 2,000 point games, where I think running more than 2 can get a bit cheesy. I'm not saying it always does, but the line starts to bulge at 3-4 chariots, and is broken at 5 without doubt.

Killshot
29-12-2006, 03:15
I voted 7+ only because who's to say that a particular Beastlord doesn't absolutely love chariots.

Move Fast Hit Low
29-12-2006, 03:16
i dont know how people can vote for 2 or less since you usually need 2 to be succesful with chariots

Voltaire
29-12-2006, 03:21
4 Chariots was where my vote went. As far as I am concerned, if you took Gorthor in your army, you would need either 2 or 4 chariots to be successful. 4 Chariots is cheap, cheerful and not much more than Mortal equivalents. They also constitute both your flanks being protected, which is good playing and definitely not cheese!

sulla
29-12-2006, 05:02
I think over 3 chariots and you really start to overload the enemy's ability to deal with them. With 4 chariots, you can fairly reliably destroy 2 infantry blocks a turn which would be fairly annoying IMO.

greenskin
29-12-2006, 07:13
I voted 7+. To me the people who have problems with army composition are more unsportsmanlike than any list that could possibly be fielded.

intellectawe
29-12-2006, 07:45
I voted 7+. To me the people who have problems with army composition are more unsportsmanlike than any list that could possibly be fielded.

I agree.

I voted 7+. The more chariots you have, the more targets for my bolt throwers you give me.

Briohmar
29-12-2006, 08:51
I think more than two is a bit much. They aren't that powerful, but they do have some punch. Besides, there are so many other things you can add to the army, like marked Bestigors, Marked Minotaurs, multiple small ambushing herds, etc.

dodicula
29-12-2006, 09:04
How many units of brettonian knights of the realm before cheese is made, I say anything more than 2 is chees. If someone has a problem with that (thinks taking more than 2 CORE kotr is not cheese) I'd like to ask why taking a lot of chariots, also a CORE unit but clearly a less efficient one for the points is somehow "more cheesy"?

Voltaire
29-12-2006, 09:46
How many units of brettonian knights of the realm before cheese is made, I say anything more than 2 is chees. If someone has a problem with that (thinks taking more than 2 CORE kotr is not cheese) I'd like to ask why taking a lot of chariots, also a CORE unit but clearly a less efficient one for the points is somehow "more cheesy"?

3 Words really: Guaranteed Impact Hits

KoTR need roll to hit and actually do something as opposed to simply smashing into a unit and watching automatic hits cause wounds. At least if your enemy has to work for his attacks he doesnt have the luxury of destroying your entire unit on a good roll of a 6.

Hywel
29-12-2006, 11:41
I'd not cry 'cheese' regardless of how many chariots there are provided the points have been paid. In fact, if the opponent has gone with more than say four, I'm delighted because he's probably sacrificed the support troops necessary to make them effective. Problem with chariots is they're very, very predictable.

Anyway, he'll probably be the one complaining about that 'cheesy git' that brought multiple cannons. :p

giner
29-12-2006, 14:25
I run/ran two chariots in 1000pts and I thought that was reasonable so I'd say 1 every 500pts is good. I will have to agree with dodicula on the knights front chariots cause imapct hits yes but hit them and they die alot faster and are slower than brets.

fearchanges
29-12-2006, 14:30
I used 4 chariots in my 2K undivided list and for me and my opponents it's just enough; more and I think it would get cheesy

EvC
29-12-2006, 15:21
I agree; more than four chariots would be cheese in my eyes. An army list that focuses more on one thing than the other is not cheese, but an army that relies on it and the easy damage it can do... yeah, dat be cheese.

intellectawe
29-12-2006, 15:49
I still fail to see why a core unit is cheesy. What about Tomb King chariots as core? My friend plays 16 chariots in his TK army, and I beat that army on the regular.

Sabbad
29-12-2006, 16:41
I'm with intellectawe.

I voted 7+. I don't see a problem with a player including lots of any Core unit. Quite frankly I think getting lots of Core units far less cheesy than taking the cheapest possible units to fill your minimum Core and spending points on the rest of your army.

Oh, and Chariots don't have rank bonuses, standards, high unit strength etc. So even with impact hits they rarely win if they charge on their own...

intellectawe
29-12-2006, 17:48
I'm with intellectawe.

I voted 7+. I don't see a problem with a player including lots of any Core unit. Quite frankly I think getting lots of Core units far less cheesy than taking the cheapest possible units to fill your minimum Core and spending points on the rest of your army.

Oh, and Chariots don't have rank bonuses, standards, high unit strength etc. So even with impact hits they rarely win if they charge on their own...

People complain about everything in this game. Bob takes too many specials. Bob takes too many rares. Bob takes too many Core. It never ends.

Oh, I just wanted to reword what I said earlier. The reason I don't mind chariots is because my Dwarves can have strength 7 bolt throwers. So I personally don't mind. My Chaos Dwarves, on the other hand, just have to deal with mass chariots just like everyone else.

Heck, as a Chaos Dwarf player, I would consider anyone taking two Earthshakers "cheesy" BEFORE considering a person taking 13 chariots cheesy.

Poisonpen
29-12-2006, 18:32
While I am not one for screaming cheese at any army, there is a point where a line must be drawn in army composition. I went with four chariots since one per-five hundred points is reasonable to me.


I still fail to see why a core unit is cheesy. What about Tomb King chariots as core? My friend plays 16 chariots in his TK army, and I beat that army on the regular.

I do understand where you are coming from: but the tomb kings comment does not make a lick of sense, since when are tomb king chariots even near as powerful as a Tuskgor chariot? Having more of them is only compensating for their comparable frailty.

Granted they are faster than all get-out, but having 16 tomb king chariots is a lot easier to handle than 10 tuskgor equivalents. For one: each tuskgor unit is an individual target, so spillover (if you get lucky) is impossible anyway. Tomb King Chariots are also only core in 2k or above. Beast chariots are always core. Tomb King Chariots can not flee as a charge reaction, beast Chariots can... and then re-roll their rally test. Tomb Kings can get command... for more than the cost of another chariot. Tomb King Chariots crumble when they fail combat (which isn't that uncommon), while beast chariots flee 3D6 and then re-roll rally tests. TK chariots also get little help from their low WS S3 steeds, while beastmen get a healthy 2 S5 attacks; similarly, the crew can actually fight with one having S6 and the other S4 on the charge with good WS compared to 2 low WS S4 attacks from the TK equivalent... Also remember that against most infantry 4D3 S4 hits are far less devastating than 2D6+2 S5 hits (I assume if the foe has 10 chariots they are smart enough to combo-charge).


I'm with intellectawe.

I voted 7+. I don't see a problem with a player including lots of any Core unit. Quite frankly I think getting lots of Core units far less cheesy than taking the cheapest possible units to fill your minimum Core and spending points on the rest of your army.

Oh, and Chariots don't have rank bonuses, standards, high unit strength etc. So even with impact hits they rarely win if they charge on their own...

You hit the nail right on the head... but I don't think you mean what you intended. Yes, chariots rarely win charges on their own. So when you have so many chariots at your disposal of course they won't be charging alone, They charge together! That is the point! :p

EvC
29-12-2006, 18:58
It's also worth remembering that most race's heavy chariots are Special choices, not Core. And Beast Chariots are far more powerful than many of them (E.g. High Elf Chariots)- just yesterday I lost a High Elf Battle Standard Bearer to the attacks of the Tuskgors and Beastmen on the Chariot- okay that's my fault for charging in, but with four strong attacks to begin with let alone up to 7 strong impact hits, and they count as a core choice, taking them in spades is a bit cheesy.

I'm not aware that anyone has made the argument that taking loads of Core units is cheesy (My Strawman Sense is tingling)... it's not the definition of the Troop Choice we're complaining about, but the easy access to numerous high-powered units. After all, if Beast Chariots were Special, a 2000 point army could have no more than four.

intellectawe
29-12-2006, 19:26
@poisonpen

I did not know any of that for Beastmen Chariots.

I retract what I said, but, since i personally have never played such an army, I couldn't even give me impression about them. I thought they were closely matched to TK chariots, but I didn't know that Beastmen Chariots were so powerful.

For now, I would like to change my +7 vote to a "no vote". Not until I play them one day :)

DesolationAngel
29-12-2006, 19:41
More than 7, at max its possible to take 22 and a shaman with 2 dispel scrolls which to me would be pure cheese. I use 4 in my army and they work nicely with the rest of my balanced list. Chariots can be beaten and don't always do too well esp with T4 and a 4+ save, not to mention taking at least 3 turns to hit combat. A pure beast list isn't exactly the most harsh army in the game and to me they need all the help they can get, even not considering GW fluffing up the raiders rule for those of us who don't ambush and like having ranks against treemen and chariots.

To me you can do nasty things with lists (just look at lizzies and dwarves) personally im not too fussed, if a list lets you do something then do it if you like, I play 40k a lot with and against some nasty armies, doesn't bother me. I also regulary play and lose against tree spirits with my beasts, doesn't bother me either.

Some armies are silly though (lizzies, dwarf anvil gunline, seaguard and several others) and I will rarely play them unless if its a tourney as its a forgone conclusion and a waste of my time setting my models up, even then I don't mind lists being beardy as its up to me who I play, in 40k ill play against anything but in warhammer some matchups are a little pointless IMO.

DesolationAngel
29-12-2006, 19:45
beast Chariots can... and then re-roll their rally test.

MoCU only lets you reroll psychology tests, rallying doesn't come under this as far as im aware.

Poisonpen
29-12-2006, 20:55
Chariots can be beaten and don't always do too well esp with T4 and a 4+ save, not to mention taking at least 3 turns to hit combat.

T4 and a 4+ save may not seem like much, but when taking the 4 wounds and the fact squads can no longer split up fire into account they become much more irritating. Also, compared to other chariot choices the save is not bad. Only two chariots have a better save, those being mortal chaos and the black coach (ward save); all other chariots have a 4+ save except those with T4 which leads to the second point: The toughness is not that much of a qualm when looking at other chariots: High Elf and Goblin chariots have the same toughness as a Beast Chariot, but get one less save. It seems as though the beast chariot is midway between medium and heavy chariot. This wouldn't be a problem if it weren't core (even as a 2-for-1 special).


MoCU only lets you reroll psychology tests, rallying doesn't come under this as far as im aware.

Our local chaos play has some explaining to do. :p
I still stand by my previous statement, for a core choice they are a bit too accessible.

dodicula
29-12-2006, 21:06
3 Words really: Guaranteed Impact Hits

KoTR need roll to hit and actually do something as opposed to simply smashing into a unit and watching automatic hits cause wounds. At least if your enemy has to work for his attacks he doesnt have the luxury of destroying your entire unit on a good roll of a 6.

Work for his attacks? Gimmie a break! 16 inch charge, tank like immunity to wounds. The ability to march, a free champion. The lance formation all help make for the st. 5 impact hits!

gorenut
29-12-2006, 21:28
Haha, after reading this thread, I'm almost tempted to make a Beastman chariot army. 20 Chariots (including the Lord) and a Giant. Yea, I took no heroes except for the Beastlord. Would anyone think this army is cheesy? I mean, it has extreme weaknesses. No magic defense at all, and every casualty taken is a big hit to the army.

Angelwing
29-12-2006, 23:31
i have two earthshakers. i take them rather than load up characters with magic items. i dont consider them over the top when i usually face armies of knights or dwarfs with thier own artillery. it would be a problem if i had 4 death rockets as well, but i dont!

Angelwing
29-12-2006, 23:35
sorry, slip of the mouse..

alextroy
30-12-2006, 04:20
I say more then 3 Chariots is Cheezy. They are Core Chariots after all, rather then Special choices like everyone else's chariots are (except for Tomb Kings light chariot units when the army is lead by a Tomb King).

greenskin
30-12-2006, 05:07
I say anyone who voted for less than 7+ needs to wear a skirt to their next game.

vcassano
30-12-2006, 08:40
I think that if it is one chariot per block of bestigor/decent sized beast herd then it is acceptable. This army makes sense as you have the main block with the supporting troops. Also it means that if you have skimped on the specials/rares and characters than you have etra power.

gORCUS
31-12-2006, 05:34
I voted 7+. I play an ogre army, heavy hitters, almost always get the charge, low static CR, and I get my but kicked regularly. Granted it's not really the same thing, but I think a skilled opponent should be able to counter it, especially one with some S7 attacks in their arsenal. I would think a one trick army like that would have some severe limitations. Anyhow, I'd rather play against a butt-load of beast chariots than a gunline any day!:D

vcassano
31-12-2006, 09:43
I voted 7+. I play an ogre army, heavy hitters, almost always get the charge, low static CR, and I get my but kicked regularly. Granted it's not really the same thing, but I think a skilled opponent should be able to counter it, especially one with some S7 attacks in their arsenal. I would think a one trick army like that would have some severe limitations.

Yes and conversely some armies would be very limited against it: Dark Elves and High Elves, specifically. The reason armies like this get a reputation for 'cheesiness' is because certain armies cannot beat them, which isn't fair.



Anyhow, I'd rather play against a butt-load of beast chariots than a gunline any day!:D

Exactly! At least there would be movement from both sides and some tactical thinking.

mightygnoblar
31-12-2006, 13:04
worst i have ever seen was gorthor the beastlord accompanied by around 16 chariots and five or six small squads of hounds for missile screening, not a nice army to fight

Nebëhr Gudahtt
31-12-2006, 14:23
A themed army is not cheesy, but a one trick pony is. With Beastmen I'd say it gets cheesy when you have less than twice as many footsloggers as you have mounted troops.

stonefox
31-12-2006, 17:07
Re: docking comp: It doesn't matter how many you have, since you'll get docked when you win. You might still get docked even if you lose, for being "cheesy", if that's what you're asking. Then again, you might also get pity points.

intellectawe
31-12-2006, 19:15
Points?

Lets see.... most GTs give about 20ish points for comp. But you get around 90ish for battle!

Hmm... yeah.... dock me 10 points so I can gain 90.

Plus, Chariots in these lists are core, so in all reality, there would be NO docked points for this army for most GTs. Suck, I know. Chaos Beast players can have their cake and eat it too.

fearchanges
01-01-2007, 17:54
I think taking more than 4 chariots is cheese in a 2K tourney list.
sure if you play with a list with 8 chariots against the wrong army (for example; heavy shooting dwarf/ empire with a lot of cannons), then your list will be terrible to play against (they will get shot to bits).
I think it depends on which enemy you engage, before you can say that your list is cheesy.

Krankenstein
01-01-2007, 19:11
Yes and conversely some armies would be very limited against it: Dark Elves and High Elves, specifically. The reason armies like this get a reputation for 'cheesiness' is because certain armies cannot beat them, which isn't fair.

If you know you're facing a chariot horde, any army can defeat it in the “set up terrain” phase. Just place two long, long hedges across the table, and guard the gap in the middle during the game.

Personally I’d love to meet a chariot horde. With my cheesy bretonnians.