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shutupSHUTUP!!!
29-12-2006, 05:57
I'm currently making a Space Marine army with an old school vibe (bright red Blood Angels colour scheme etc), and I am pondering back banners. So I ask thee, what do you think of Space Marine sergeants who go to battle wearing huge pieces of cloth above their heads? And no helmet too just to make the "snipe me" message as clear as possible. It makes no damn sense, but this is what they do apparently!

mistformsquirrel
29-12-2006, 05:59
Personally - I love that look. It screams to me of the almost medival style 40k humans can sometimes evoke >.< which is why I'm here and not at another sci-fi miniature game forum.

Of course that depends on if you want to have more or less 'fantasy' flare in your science-fantasy. I prefer more myself <,<

shutupSHUTUP!!!
29-12-2006, 06:00
Fantasy is good, I'm sure after the bright red armour and tanks with flat armour and no camoflauge it can't get much worse anyway.

Hahaha, the entire idea of a couple Space Marines conquering the galaxy has just collapsed in my face, I'm trying to read the third Horus Heresy book too.

The Emperor
29-12-2006, 06:26
I say go for it. All my Sergeants have back banners and I love them.

Shadowfax
29-12-2006, 06:59
I don't like them. They seem kind of dumb when contrasted with any urban/interior/bunker/etc. terrain you may be playing with.

CrazyHeeb
29-12-2006, 07:14
I would have issues from a practical stand point. They would be hard as hell to move through terrain and would take up a lot of space in a figure case.

Messiah
29-12-2006, 07:49
Nay. Uless youre doing a samurai-themed chapter. I was so glad they let go of those things..

Gaebriel
29-12-2006, 08:02
I don't use them, because I expect handling problems. I also expect with a back banner it would be hard to roll after evading enemy fire (yes, I expect my Marines to evade :p ).

Vanger
29-12-2006, 08:10
If you want to do them in retro feeling, then back banners and no helmets on the sergeants is a definite must.

The Emperor
29-12-2006, 08:21
Yep. Hell, if I had them, I'd give my Combat Squad Leaders back banners, too. ;)


They would be hard as hell to move through terrain

True enough. Though I figure the back banners are more then just poles with a banner attached to them. While the Imperium is assbackwards technology wise, they're still more advanced then us nowadays. Those banner poles may be telescopic, and can retract back into the backpack, with some mechanism for rolling the banner into the pole in order to keep it safe. Just my guess, though.

Either that or they just wear them for ceremonial purposes. *shrug* They sure do look nice on a figure, though. :)

Cypher
29-12-2006, 08:24
I gave all my characters banners in my Ultramarine army, looks really cool. The only issue I had is that a lot of metal character models dont have a sculpted back banner, which makes getting enough somewhat tricky.

Falkman
29-12-2006, 08:39
True enough. Though I figure the back banners are more then just poles with a banner attached to them. While the Imperium is assbackwards technology wise, they're still more advanced then us nowadays. Those banner poles may be telescopic, and can retract back into the backpack, with some mechanism for rolling the banner into the pole in order to keep it safe. Just my guess, though.

Either that or they just wear them for ceremonial purposes. *shrug* They sure do look nice on a figure, though. :)
I assume he meant practical issues from a gaming point of view though, not fluff ;)
Can be very annoying with those banners in CoD buildings for example.

Corax
29-12-2006, 08:46
Personally, I think they're a bit naff. They kind of suited the overall goofyness of 2nd Ed., but they don't really go so well with the 'darker' current style. I also can't help wondering how the hell they get through doors with those things on...and what happens if the wind is blowing really hard????

mistformsquirrel
29-12-2006, 09:17
Personally, I think they're a bit naff. They kind of suited the overall goofyness of 2nd Ed., but they don't really go so well with the 'darker' current style. I also can't help wondering how the hell they get through doors with those things on...and what happens if the wind is blowing really hard????

Where do you think the idea for "Assault Marines" came from? <^.~> The Imperium, much like da boyz, requires "inspiration", if you catch my meaning.






What?! <p_q> It COULD have happened that way!

synapse
29-12-2006, 09:24
all my marine squads (ALL my squads are either 10 or 5 man - im old skool that way) have backbanners, indeed each 10-man squad has three: one on the sarge, one on the acting sarge anda big one (from the command squad) on a standard bearer :o (but then again the army is very byzantine so the banners fit in)

i think it epends on the kind of army you want if your marines lean closer to the knights in space theme (like mine) id say banners are a must. if your marines lean towards the more techy side of 40-k (like mentor legion or iron hands) id nay no, sicne they dont really make sense.

How on earth do you get banners in a rhino? and NO they are not telescpoic - thats just sad! :p

leonmallett
29-12-2006, 09:27
If you want to do them in retro feeling, then back banners and no helmets on the sergeants is a definite must.

Exactly the case for my most recent Space Marine army.

Power armoured super-warriors in garish armour are ridiculous anyway, so don't fall in to the camouflage/hiding/41st millenium aesthetics trap. They are a pain in terms of placing in terrain and cases as noted above.

jubilex
29-12-2006, 11:10
Backbanners? Who are these backbanners? Why can't we have backs anymore? Some people just annoy me, trying to tell us what to do.
Actually I like them. My guardians have the jet bike banner poles and flags, to denote a squad leader and they look pretty good. I would have thought that marine banner poles would be flexible, so if they came into contact with something, they would bend. Putting those space marine colours where they belong, IN THE DIRT!

Rlyehable
29-12-2006, 11:24
Power armoured super-warriors in garish armour are ridiculous anyway...

Aawwww! And I though that my halved florescent yellow and florescent orange were wonderful. :cries:
Backbanners would not fit in?!?

Of course I took "Have Pride in Your Colors" disadvantage.

Quin 242
29-12-2006, 11:27
Those banner poles may be telescopic, and can retract back into the backpack, with some mechanism for rolling the banner into the pole in order to keep it safe. Just my guess, though.

Pretty good guess. The original fluff indicates that they are indeed telscopic. Basically a com antenna with a microfibre banner on it. Easily stowed and nearly weightless.


How on earth do you get banners in a rhino? and NO they are not telescpoic - thats just sad! :p
Actually they are. Sorry to bust your bubble. The old fluff indicates that the "banner poles" are as described earlier, Retractable antenna that banners are affixed to on certaion members of the squad.

jubilex
29-12-2006, 11:31
Blimey, I can see them from here. How is cthulhu anyway? Does anyone know the postal/zip code for rlyeh?

hiveminion
29-12-2006, 11:51
I'm currently making a Space Marine army with an old school vibe (bright red Blood Angels colour scheme etc), and I am pondering back banners. So I ask thee, what do you think of Space Marine sergeants who go to battle wearing huge pieces of cloth above their heads? And no helmet too just to make the "snipe me" message as clear as possible. It makes no damn sense, but this is what they do apparently!

Depends if you want to go for a "realistic", dark, combat-look, or just want to make your models look cool (which I would, personaly). Sure, bare heads and large banners are not very useful in a fight; you're not wearing power armour and a killy sword for nothing, are you?
But still, banners fit the ideology of most Space Marine chapters. After all, they proudly display their chapter's colours because it scares the enemy, and banners add to this effect. So, although when swinging a power sword it may not be handy, it sure is fluffy.
The only limits I place on myself when it comes to modelling is NO tabards on jumppackers (smell something burning?), and NO bare heads on Terminators (that just pushes it!).

Slaaneshi Slave
29-12-2006, 12:09
You just made me want to give all the sergeants in my new Marine army back banners. BAD!

bertcom1
29-12-2006, 12:13
http://tsoalr.com/view.php?date=2004-04-08

They got him right in the heraldry!

synapse
29-12-2006, 12:15
yeah - whats the point having terminator armour if youre going around with no helmet! stupid (though it looks cool, i stop short of that one)

also, no capes or cloaks on models with jump packs

shutupSHUTUP!!!
29-12-2006, 12:19
Settled it is then, back banners are indeed cool if completely compromising on a battlefield.

IJW
29-12-2006, 12:20
also, no capes or cloaks on models with jump packs
A certain scene from The Incredibles comes to mind...

Meanwhile, back with back banners, sure!

When it comes to practicality arguments, just remember that we're playing a game where one of the most fearsome weapons is a big fist, and all the Imperial tanks have enormous profiles with loads of flat surfaces. This is Space Opera, not hard SF... :angel:

shutupSHUTUP!!!
29-12-2006, 12:29
I've been playing for so long the ridiculousness of it has gone right over my head but it's coming back. So I've got a couple of these guys who wear bright red armour in the middle of a forest/city/wasteland, no helmet and a small standard attached to his back indicating his status for everyone to see. He eschews the use of shooting (beyond his pistol mini-rocket launcher) in order to run across the battlefield with his squad sticking out like sore thumb, denying his entire squad the ability to use their long range weapons just so he can slap his enemies with an oversized metal fist. Speak to the hand!

And he's a vampire.

Ah Codex: Red Space Marines, I adore thee so.

Frecus
29-12-2006, 12:34
That's the way to talk!

My Sister Superiors all have backbanners. Not big ones, mind, but it really adds to the look. Also, it gives me the option to make my retributrix superior from a special weapon sister.

Frecus
The glade wanderer
Madwarrior

Brother_Falco
29-12-2006, 12:36
Why is there debate on this?
I'm sure it's in the Codex Astartes that everyone of any importance in the army gets a big flag/spiky thing/shield welded to a banner pole/sword on a stick/skinned Hrud/swiped xenos fiddly bit attached to their backpack to show their faith, dutiful nature and general possession of the feat "Awesomeness."
I've got something in the order of thirty individuals with back-banners and the like, it allows you bling the model without being ridiculous and makes the deserving characters more distinctive.

Slaaneshi Slave
29-12-2006, 12:39
Damn it, I was going to put model back banners, then Falco said it means my models would be "blinged"... No more back banners for me I guess then.

hiveminion
29-12-2006, 12:40
Why is there debate on this?
I'm sure it's in the Codex Astartes that everyone of any importance in the army gets a big flag/spiky thing/shield welded to a banner pole/sword on a stick/skinned Hrud/swiped xenos fiddly bit attached to their backpack to show their faith, dutiful nature and general possession of the feat "Awesomeness."
I've got something in the order of thirty individuals with back-banners and the like, it allows you bling the model without being ridiculous and makes the deserving characters more distinctive.

Exactly, it's fluffy. The debate is their because everyone seems to agree on this, hence arguments arise like: "yeah, I think so too".

The only problem is that, well, Space Marines seem to think that good looks (bare heads) are more important than protection

Further to this note is that my Infiltrating Marines never have banners.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
29-12-2006, 12:41
There's a debate because most Space Marine commanders shamefully neglect to equip their marines with back banners, or at least I don't see many around here personally.

hiveminion
29-12-2006, 12:42
Damn it, I was going to put model back banners, then Falco said it means my models would be "blinged"... No more back banners for me I guess then.


Aren't Space Marines "blinged" anyway? Bright colours, chapter icons, shiny comm-links...Banners just look cool with it! Take them, if you think so too!

The Judge
29-12-2006, 12:43
I remember a samurai-themed army where every Marine had a back banner... now that was a good looking army.

So do it for the look, and the background. Damn the camoflage and open fire!

Slaaneshi Slave
29-12-2006, 12:47
Aren't Space Marines "blinged" anyway? Bright colours, chapter icons, shiny comm-links...Banners just look cool with it! Take them, if you think so too!

Well my marines are black... Red Scorpians. Back Banners also fits nicely with "Have Pride In Your Colours".

hiveminion
29-12-2006, 12:49
Well my marines are black... Red Scorpians. Back Banners also fits nicely with "Have Pride In Your Colours".

Yup. Though mine have "See, but don't be seen", the sergeants that don't infiltrate/have jump packs all get standards-and their armour's black with dark green and red...

Maus
29-12-2006, 12:50
I would have issues from a practical stand point. They would be hard as hell to move through terrain and would take up a lot of space in a figure case.For my old Marine army (2nd ed) I pinned all the banners into the backpacks with a long pin and didn't glue them. That way I could remove them for transportation, and although I never needed to you would also be able to remove them to place models into terrain more easily.

IJW
29-12-2006, 13:25
Not exactly Marines, but here's a couple of examples of back banners:

http://azurevision.co.uk/warseer/harlequin-diamond-banner-4.jpg

More details can be found here. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=996210#post996210)

Captain Micha
29-12-2006, 13:27
I say do what you please. My chapter is probably not going to have them. however this is due more to my fluff than anything else. If I had different fluff for my boys I would have a banner in a heartbeat. Also to any that think that the banners are impractical. So are 8 feet tall 5 foot wide people in armor that weighs about 200 lbs. Seriously you have to make special doors and hallways for them!

Brother Lysander
29-12-2006, 13:32
Nay for me. I have done in the past, but I'm rebuilding my marines and back banners are out (the TSOALR strip quoted above helped, lol). I think having no back banners in the force gives the standard bearer his job back.

BL

leonmallett
29-12-2006, 13:45
Exactly, it's fluffy. The debate is their because everyone seems to agree on this, hence arguments arise like: "yeah, I think so too".

The only problem is that, well, Space Marines seem to think that good looks (bare heads) are more important than protection

Further to this note is that my Infiltrating Marines never have banners.


My infiltrating marines have the banners. I envisage them unfurling the telescoping banners when ready to engage the enemy.

bertcom1
29-12-2006, 13:48
Here's a couple more Turn Signals opinions on banners.

Getting out transports
http://tsoalr.com/view.php?date=2005-04-21

Retractable ones
http://tsoalr.com/view.php?date=2005-06-16

MrBigMr
29-12-2006, 14:48
Well, people tend to mix modern day tactics into a world that doesn't use them. There's not much chanse to snipe a target if it's running around sawing people in half, even with a big banner and no helmet.
Nowadays people tend to keep still and fire at the enemy, which makes sniping a target that much easier. Marines in their big ass armor and extremely mobile tactics (even for siege heavy chapters) don't have to worry about some sniper.
IG does, as pointed in the codex that most officers tend to use helmets instead of the pointy caps so they wouldn't stand out for snipers.

Banners are used so you know there your squad is. When charging towards the enemy and all the fog of war and such, simple radio won't do. You don't have time to start asking where your buddies are. Also it's easier to get guys in check when ordering them to the banner. It's a focal point. Easier to order troops to the banner than to try to find some other spot to gather and regroup.
And it looks cool.

I know from experience when we've taken part in boffer events. When 300+ people fight on a dirt field and the dust starts to rise, you'll be thankful for spotting your troops from the banner (unles the enemy has taken it). Helps to keep things organized.

Just my 2 euro cents.

Brother_Falco
29-12-2006, 15:58
I have to clarify.
When I said bling I was meaning hanging lots of not-strictly-necessary-but-appealing-to-the-eye stuff off them, not giving them grills.
Though this does bring to mind a project oft-mooted at my local GW, building Marneus a land raider with hydros to match his bling.

Slaaneshi Slave
29-12-2006, 15:59
Thats one of the reasons I do not like Ultramarines. The new god aweful makeover they have been given. + EDITED BY THE WS =I= + The other reason is that they are supposed to be the closest Codex Astartes following chapter, and yet they have special, non Codex Astartes units...

hiveminion
29-12-2006, 16:52
After playing some DoW, and watching the intromovie for the gazillionth time, it hit me that unit sergeants use those banners to claim an area (or in the case of DoW, strategic points). They carry the banner on their backpack, then take it off and slam it into the ground, like in that famous picture of those Americans planting a flag on a Japanese island(?).

Now I really want to give every sergeant a flag...

Slaaneshi Slave
29-12-2006, 16:53
How exactly would you take a banner out of your backpack, without dropping it and looking like a pillock infront of 9 of your friends? :p

hiveminion
29-12-2006, 16:54
How exactly would you take a banner out of your backpack, without dropping it and looking like a pillock infront of 9 of your friends? :p

It actually flew of its backpack because of that Dread exploding, but I think it's possible anyway.

The Emperor
29-12-2006, 17:34
Pretty good guess. The original fluff indicates that they are indeed telscopic. Basically a com antenna with a microfibre banner on it. Easily stowed and nearly weightless.

I'm right? Sweet!

Where's my cookie?

Greatoliver
29-12-2006, 17:38
Nay, IMO.

They're a bit silly and make the Serges great targets.

Plus, who carries banners now-a-days?

And imagine what it would be like on a windy day...:D

EVIL INC
29-12-2006, 17:41
I actually like the idea of banners. It is reminescent of ancient times when banners and flags were usefull to organize units. It represents the marine's confidence in themselves (dare I say arrogance? lol)and thier "crusade" against thier enemies. It also makes it easier for us as players to help keep our units organized and allows us to have some fun making our armies characterfull.

leonmallett
29-12-2006, 17:41
Nay, IMO.

They're a bit silly and make the Serges great targets.

Plus, who carries banners now-a-days?

And imagine what it would be like on a windy day...

No sillier than most of the 40K background when you consider it.

Who carries swords or axes into battle these days?

The Sergeant is superhumanly strong in really heavy armour... ;)

MrBigMr
29-12-2006, 17:47
like in that famous picture of those Americans planting a flag on a Japanese island(?).
Iwo Jima.
A friend made a funny diorama of it for an Inquisitor campaing (we're using 40K models). A pile of rocks with a Necron arm coming from the middle of it holding an American flag up.


Plus, who carries banners now-a-days?
Again, 40K ain't "now-a-days".

Greatoliver
29-12-2006, 18:09
1) No sillier than most of the 40K background when you consider it.

2) Who carries swords or axes into battle these days?

3) The Sergeant is superhumanly strong in really heavy armour... ;)

1) Ah! But, BB's (Back Banners) are in the fluff, and they are what makes fluff generally so silly. Take away BB's and you'll be left with something that's not as silly as BB's. If you get my drift.

2) Can you use BB's as an effective weapon? Nay. They're practically useless, other than making you stick out like a sore thumb...Try sneaking about with one on! :p

3) You know trees? They're really heavy. Yet, lumberjack can push them over. You know levers? If the fulcrum is at the bottom, it can topple.

Convert this to a SM with a BB, and strength doesn't matter, he's going down!

Observe:

+ EDITED FOR SPAM/OFF TOPIC CONTENT WS =I= +

intellectawe
29-12-2006, 18:14
If your sergeant is going back banner and no helmet, remember to paint him a different color than the squad and make sure the marines are all beakies with one shoulder pad each covered in "bump spikes".

Now that is old school Warhammer 40k.

leonmallett
29-12-2006, 18:32
1) Ah! But, BB's (Back Banners) are in the fluff, and they are what makes fluff generally so silly. Take away BB's and you'll be left with something that's not as silly as BB's. If you get my drift.

2) Can you use BB's as an effective weapon? Nay. They're practically useless, other than making you stick out like a sore thumb...Try sneaking about with one on! :p

3) You know trees? They're really heavy. Yet, lumberjack can push them over. You know levers? If the fulcrum is at the bottom, it can topple.



1. But they are fluffy, the fluff is frankly ridiculous but works within a universe of suspended disbelief!

2. I didn't say to use as a weapon, but rather pointed out your citing of banners not being a modern military accoutrement - which quite frankly swords and axes are not either!

3. Aaahhh. The lumberjack, hefting his axe. Hardly the same as the wind! ;) Plus what do you think they have the flared greaves for (stability...:D )?

Back banners - yay!:p

philbrad2
29-12-2006, 18:36
+ WARSEER =I= +


This thread is getting off tack and Slaaneshi Slave consider very carefully what you type and the language you use when describing. The language in your post is considered offensive and has been edited, you will gain another user profile note reference this.

GREATOLIVER - Your post adds nothing to the topic and has been edited.

Final warning, keep posting constructive or I'll close this thread

PhilB
:chrome:
+ WARSEER =I= +

Dr Death
29-12-2006, 18:36
I love back banners, they add to the overall diversity of themes drawn from to come up with space marines, reminiscent of the sashimono worn by japanese warriors and adding something a little different to the usual overtly western 'knight' look. They are a fantastic peice of identification for the different squads and add an aspect of regimentalisation. I do insist that they are the flag though rather than some equivilent standard or totem because that gives the required 'look' to keep them still along the older (and imho cooler) sci-fi super-soldier styling.

As far as practicality goes- marines do not sneak about in difficult terrain, that's what the scouts are for. Marines are the emperor's hammer! Smashing all assunder with sharp strikes of brute force. Marines are too valuable to waste on any but the most oppertune of missions and so no doubt would only commit to battle when the terrain was in their favour.

Dr Death

Greatoliver
29-12-2006, 18:37
1. But they are fluffy, the fluff is frankly ridiculous but works within a universe of suspended disbelief!

2. I didn't say to use as a weapon, but rather pointed out your citing of banners not being a modern military accoutrement - which quite frankly swords and axes are not either!

3. Aaahhh. The lumberjack, hefting his axe. Hardly the same as the wind! ;) Plus what do you think they have the flared greaves for (stability...:D )?

Back banners - yay!:p

You have proved me wrong on all accounts...

...I still say "Nay!". Stubborn yound lad, I am... ;)

[I shall explain later when I have the time, to say something that is beneficial.]

Rich 123
29-12-2006, 20:15
I like the idea of marine swith back banners, although I don't use them on all my sergeants in my army, just in the terminator squad because they are elites, but that is just to make more of a visual distinction with squads in an army very low on infantry.

I think marines without helmets look great. It makes a clear sign of their arrogant attitude of others and their pride in their battlefield prowess. However, I also make sure that any helmetless marines have their helmet hung on their belt. Much as I like the look, it is just plain retarded to not even bring a helmet to battle with you - they just remove it to inspire the troops under them and fuel their own egos.

My 2 penneth though.
Dicky

Slaaneshi Slave
29-12-2006, 20:29
Taking their helmet off shows a LACK of battlefield prowess. Who is the better soldier? The one who only goes deaf because he got shot in the helmet, or the one wh odies?

Rich 123
29-12-2006, 20:38
I feel different little Slave ;)

Taking your helmet off shows a total disregard of the enemies battlefield prowess!

Having your helmet with you, available to put on, shows a degree of, both self preservation and prudence.

It's a distinctly personal opinion though depending on how one pictures marines. Sci-fi soldiers or arrogant knights in a sci-fi setting? Personally I far prefer the latter!

Dicky

Slaaneshi Slave
29-12-2006, 20:50
It goes against all common and military sence.. There is no soldier who ever lived (at least since Rifles came into exstance :p) who would not wear his helmet if he wanted to live. There is a reason we get charged if we wont fasten our helmets...

knight of ne
29-12-2006, 20:51
lets think a minute, space marines are 7-8 foot tall genetically enhanced super humans wearing some of the most sophisticated armour available to man. they are proud of what chapter they are and who they are, there armour is ornate and as far as there concerned, they are the best, so wearing a big back banner doesnt matter because they shrug of most weapons and normally can be seen even wihout back banners. there proud of there chapter so it would seem right to display there chapters emblem on a back banner, and it does make good squad ids. fighting in citys doesnt matter as the doors are built for normal humans so marines would have to barge through them anyway.

plus model wise there great and can really finish a good paintjob.
it just depends if you wish to give your marines a pratical feel or a more marine feel wich meens lots of back banners. persanally i cry when i see a marine army with no back banners.

MrBigMr
29-12-2006, 20:52
A helmet won't stop a bullet 100&#37;. At least that's what they told us in the army about out kevlars. They're mainly designed to protect the head for hits and shrapnel, maybe deflect a bullet, but a stright impact from a rifle bullet will penetrate most likely.
I hated the damn things. They were realy uncomfortable and always in the way. If I ended up in war, my helmet and rifle would be the 2 first things I'd ditch. As a medic I have no need for a rifle. A pistol would work far better.

intellectawe
29-12-2006, 21:02
It goes against all common and military sence.. There is no soldier who ever lived (at least since Rifles came into exstance :p) who would not wear his helmet if he wanted to live. There is a reason we get charged if we wont fasten our helmets...

Sorry, you are purely speaking out of your bum hole. You obviously have NO clue what you are talking about. :wtf:

I was stationed in Iraq, and after seeing what a roadside bomb could do to our humvees and the people inside it, some of us didn't bother wearing helmets in combat when driving around. They wore their helmets and died. After that I didn't wear mine for about 4ish months of patroling. Like many soldiers I knew, I came to the grim realization that if I were to get blown up, I would die. We just accepted it. I take offense when a chair jockey spouts nonsense about what I went through...

Now, take 40k. This is a time where you can get hit in the chest by a sub atomic laser cannon or a molecule disruptor that tears you apart and breaks you down into nothing. Or you can be sucked into the warp by a cannon. Or have a hydrolic claw the size of a 1 story building crushing your puny body. :(

Why bother wearing any armor? Mine as well go out there naked. I am not talking about the sci fi game we play, I am talking about if 40k was real.

No amount of personal armor would save you from any of those things I mentioned. There is no 3+ save in real life. The attack will either kill you, maim you or bounce off your armor/stick in your armor.

Mine as well take your helmet off and enjoy the view as millions of tyranids drop around your desert outpost of 50 men and 3 trucks. :cool:

Slaaneshi Slave
29-12-2006, 21:18
I was stationed in Iraq, and after seeing what a roadside bomb could do to our humvees and the people inside it, some of us didn't bother wearing helmets in combat when driving around. They wore their helmets and died. After that I didn't wear mine for about 4ish months of patroling. Like many soldiers I knew, I came to the grim realization that if I were to get blown up, I would die. We just accepted it. I take offense when a chair jockey spouts nonsense about what I went through...

A chair jockey? Right. Your helmet is not supposed to stop you getting BLOWN up, its supposed to stop a bullet from entering your brain. I take offence when somebody makes people in my proffession seem... Less than intelligent. Did you also, by any chance, not wear your body armour because it wouldn't stop a tank round?

The Emperor
29-12-2006, 21:23
Taking their helmet off shows a LACK of battlefield prowess. Who is the better soldier? The one who only goes deaf because he got shot in the helmet, or the one wh odies?

Bear in mind that, just because a model doesn't wear a helmet, doesn't mean he doesn't actually wear a helmet in battle.

For instance, take the Ragnar Blackmane figure. No helmet. Yet in a short story in the 2nd edition Codex: Space Wolves, he wears a helmet.

When it comes to modeling, making a miniature without a helmet is a good way to distinguish the leaders from the standard rank-and-file, nevermind giving the miniature character, which you can't always get across with a guy wearing a helmet. That's pretty much the main reason why Sergeant and character models tend to not wear helmets.

EDIT: Hope this post made sense. I'm trying to read, write, and watch Law & Order all at the same time. ;)

knight of ne
29-12-2006, 21:24
A chair jockey? Right. Your helmet is not supposed to stop you getting BLOWN up, its supposed to stop a bullet from entering your brain. I take offence when somebody makes people in my proffession seem... Less than intelligent.


no but this is 40k where the marines basic weapon fires rounds that detonate, helmets against the effects of most weapons in 40k are useless really, and kevlar helmats in real life cant always stop a bullet.

Plebian
29-12-2006, 21:26
Nay. Just don't like the look.
-Plebian

Slaaneshi Slave
29-12-2006, 21:26
A marine with a helmet on will survive most weapons fire coming his way, which will be small arms/rifle equivilent, just the same as a soldier with a kevlar helmet on will survive more shots to his head with it on than without it.

hiveminion
29-12-2006, 21:34
I agree with Slave here...as much deadly weaponry there is around in the 40k galaxy, there is also a LOT of small arms fire. That's why soldiers bother to wear armour those days. You don't fight to be a 100 year old Space Marine wearing the most powerful, ancient and precious suit of armour to get shot in your head because you didn't bother to put on your helmet...

I only use bare heads on my Marines when I want an expression on their face.

Perhaps this off-topic subject needs a dedicated thread though...

Rich 123
29-12-2006, 21:38
Ok, so we have established the already commonly held belief that power armour is really rather good at stopping nasty enemy bullets, shrapnel, thrown stones/insults and so forth.

But just because they don't have one on doesn't mean they never do, does it?

Here is a sergeant of mine (still slightly WIP paintjob).
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v399/richard_milson/Tactical&#37;20Squad%202/Sgtdouble.jpg

He doesn't have a helmet because I think it shows the arrogance and disdain marines have for their enemies abilities to harm them. I also don't believe a marine would never have his helmet on him, so all my unhelmetted ones have them slung on their belts in case there is a need for it (a Leman Russ directly in front of them for instance). It's just a practicality, but one that marines rarely take heed of.

I think you need to calm down a little Slave. He wasn't insulting you intelligence as a soldier. He was in fact just saying that, as a soldier himself he often saw there was little need for his helmet in some circumstances.

Dicky

Slaaneshi Slave
29-12-2006, 21:41
The only thing that got me pissed was the chair jockey comment. ;)

knight of ne
29-12-2006, 21:43
well i can understand you getting pissed about the chair jockey comment.

ChrisAsmadi
29-12-2006, 21:53
I do not intend to have banners within my new space marine army, but, spending on my mood, I may model small banners on separate bases for each unit as markers and what not.

knight of ne
29-12-2006, 22:01
as long as your happy with your choice it doesnt matter what anyone else thinks in the long run.

ChrisAsmadi
29-12-2006, 22:31
as long as your happy with your choice it doesnt matter what anyone else thinks in the long run.

Wise words, my friend.

But, as I'm not the best painter, that's mainly why I won't have banners.

Greatoliver
30-12-2006, 00:49
Okay, my opinion on BB's and Helmets:

IMO, BB's are useless. They do not seem to have any tactical use whatsoever and mental use seems to be pretty low as well. I think they are there just because of tradidition and I believe tradition is the cause of these pointless frills.

I also believe that not wearing helmets is in the same group. It's is plain stupidity not to wear a helmet as your head is one of your most vulnerable places. And again, what benefit is there? None. Why do they wear or not these objects? Purely out of routine and honour.

So, in my SM army, that tradition is scrapped. My army is fluffy, yet that bit of fluff is seen as stupidity and it is not done.

Back to reality, why would you not wear a helmet? I know very little of war now-a-days and I know there are some people in the Services so I won't pretend I do. But, after seeing the dramatisation, Black Hawk Down, where the Americans removed their rear armour plates and then got shot in the back, I do wonder about removing armour for ease...

Gen.Steiner
30-12-2006, 01:00
I come firmly down in the "Yea" camp.

My Squad Leaders and Sergeants (not to mention my Chaplains, Librarians and Captains) all have them. No matter how silly it is. ;)

starlight
30-12-2006, 01:05
<skips to end>

I've never done it, but I'm considering it for my *Deathwing* Termi Army and even then, only because I met a lady whose art just rocks and she'd do a great job.:D

Diomedes
30-12-2006, 01:10
I say Yay! they may be useless but its the whole Heradlry aspect I like about it.

Plus I think it looks good on the field so a definite YAY! from me.

Tymell
30-12-2006, 01:17
I'd say a nay. I used to have them, in the days when I first started out and copied everything I saw on the boxes exactly (I'm sure others have been there ;) ) but now I just prefer a realistic look. As for helmets or not I'm easy: without can make them stand out, especially if you don't have the banners, but with does make more sense. A helmet also can look great. Maybe use the beaky helmet for sergeants (although I save them up for the assault squads).

Ultimately though it is all a matter of your personal preference.

Light of the Emperor
30-12-2006, 05:58
Yay!

A force with tons of banners, of any kind, looks great. Plus, its a nice throwback to second edition.

Rowenstin
30-12-2006, 06:33
My sarges, all power-armored characters, dreadnoughts, and even bikers have banners. Some of them even oversized fists that make them so slow that any enemy can hit them multiple times in close combat before they have a chance to react, and their armor is painted in bright white and black. And I used a company standard the last game (it actually turned to be useful!)

I think maybe marines use banners for the same reason bullfighters use a large red cape: to hypnotize the eldar.

hiveminion
30-12-2006, 11:23
Okay, my opinion on BB's and Helmets:

IMO, BB's are useless. They do not seem to have any tactical use whatsoever and mental use seems to be pretty low as well. I think they are there just because of tradidition and I believe tradition is the cause of these pointless frills.

Banner's tactical uses: -Capture a strategic location
-Display squad number/chapter icon
-Rallying point
-Scare enemy



I also believe that not wearing helmets is in the same group. It's is plain stupidity not to wear a helmet as your head is one of your most vulnerable places. And again, what benefit is there? None. Why do they wear or not these objects? Purely out of routine and honour.

True. But it looks cool if the face has an expression, like yelling:) . Lots of Marine Characters (Calgar, Tigurius) would look pretty boring without a face too.
Still, it's stupid not to wear a helmet when wearing power armour...

I'm not a good painter, that's why I dithered a bit when deciding to do banners. I decided to use transfers on them, it looks good enough, and once I'm a better painter I'll scrape them off and paint something cool instead.

Daemon king Mad Dog
30-12-2006, 11:36
i think back banners look silly, and the thing that a GW person did looks better, he took the eagle off and put that there in stead!

knight of ne
30-12-2006, 11:38
i agree that did look cool, but personally back banners are a great way to add heraldry to your marines.

Flame Boy
30-12-2006, 12:07
I think that back banners are a good idea when you are creating a DIY chapter, as it gives yout chapter a great deal of identity, and some of the first founding chapters are ideal banner-wearers, as they have a legacy that goes back to the Great Crusade, so they are rightly proud of their heraldry.

I think a great deal of the marines not wearing helmets is down to the crusty old veterans preferring to trust their own senses rather than their suit's auto-senses at times. I can imagine a Space Wolf veteran taking off his helmet briefly, sniffing about for signs of trouble, and then replacing his helmet. I guess it's partly to do with marines trusting their warrior instincts.

I generally prefer helmets on my models, so hopefully I'll be able to get buckets on most of my marine's heads.

Greatoliver
30-12-2006, 12:07
Banner's tactical uses: -Capture a strategic location
-Display squad number/chapter icon
-Rallying point
-Scare enemy

Well firstly, I did not know BBs could come off in the middle of the battle!

The thing is though, if the squad is well enough trained, they should not need a BB to show them where their serge is - they should just know. If you are talking about HQs, then that's more valid, but a standard Banner would do, i.e. the one in the Command Squad.

Rallying and Capturing? And an actual Banner would be best, but I suppose one stuck on your back would do!

Scaring the enemy? How much more scared can you get when you're fighting those behemoths? :D Perhaps, if you paint a nasty picture on, but having skulls all over you're armour would do better - and actually, who are you going to scare? Necrons and 'Nids don't get scared (IIRC), Chaos SM will not get scared very easily, Tau will think that wearing BBs is backwards so it only leaves very few...

Having a BB for Chapter and Squad markings is not particularily useful as all Marines have them on their shoulder pads anyway, but it might be handy if you're behind a wall. ;)

With all that said, I think they could be about morale. For example, if the rules tie in with the fluff at all, a Company Banner allows you to re-roll Morale Checks etc. Now, perhaps a BB is for honour and makes the Marines stubborn? A possibility along with rallying and capturing.


True. But it looks cool if the face has an expression, like yelling:) . Lots of Marine Characters (Calgar, Tigurius) would look pretty boring without a face too.
Still, it's stupid not to wear a helmet when wearing power armour...

I do admit it is cool, and I suppose the best thing to do is to have your helmet attached onto your belt, so when a fire-fight starts, you can pop it on. :rolleyes:


I'm not a good painter, that's why I dithered a bit when deciding to do banners. I decided to use transfers on them, it looks good enough, and once I'm a better painter I'll scrape them off and paint something cool instead.

That's a big reason why I don't use BBs - very difficult to paint. I suppose I'll see. If I suddenly have the urge to make all my Marines proud people, I'll do it.

But at the moment, BBs aren't for me.

Corax
30-12-2006, 13:41
From a purely practical perspective, they are a nuisance because they are hard to fit into a carry case, and they are terribly fragile and prone to snapping off. While cool looking in a retro kind of way, I think they are more trouble than they are worth.

Rich 123
30-12-2006, 13:45
Hah, this thread is just degenerating into silliness. Choices like this are totally personal and entirely optional to each modeller.

Some people like them, the nostalgia of back in Second Edition where back banners were the norm. I quite like the use of them, not for every single sergeant but for those you want to stand out even more.

However the opposite is, indeed, totally true as well. Some people don't like them and feel they look stupidly antiquated for the genetically engineered super soldiers that marines are - or many of the other reasons that have been put forth here.

This isn't a black and white subject - its a personal one, a choice. What has become an argument is beginning to go around in circles.

Dicky

knight of ne
30-12-2006, 13:47
From a purely practical perspective, they are a nuisance because they are hard to fit into a carry case, and they are terribly fragile and prone to snapping off. While cool looking in a retro kind of way, I think they are more trouble than they are worth.


you can always pin the BB to their back packs.

hiveminion
30-12-2006, 13:50
=Rich 123;1180175]
This isn't a black and white subject - its a personal one, a choice. What has become an argument is beginning to go around in circles.

Dicky


Well that's the main feature of a good debate, isn't it? That there's no ending.
The fact that this is a personal choice is probably the reason why this argument is so intensively discussed: it is a) a matter of different opinions versus each other and b) a chance for people to voice their opinions so that all those who doubt can find inspiration.

Rich 123
30-12-2006, 14:47
Oh, indeed it is HiveMinion. It just isn't going anywhere having degenerated into less of a debate and more just different people voicing their differing opinions repeatedly.

It is a personal choice and yet some posters are arguing like their choice is somehow the right one.

Dicky

MrBigMr
30-12-2006, 15:06
Well, my only (loyalist) space marine chapter won't have any problems spotting their sarges, as they'll all are gonna be wearing totally different armor (artificer armor, modelled from terminator armor and named siege armor).
They won't have banners, since I'm trying to model them somewhat "realisticly". Like desert camo armor (they're from a desert planet), bolters with tactical grips and scopes, tanks with IG style gear (shovels and such) and so on.

Slaaneshi Slave
30-12-2006, 15:12
It is a personal choice and yet some posters are arguing like their choice is somehow the right one.

Dicky

It wouldn't be much of a debate if the debaters didn't think their opinion were the right one. would it.:rolleyes:

Rich 123
30-12-2006, 15:21
Yeah, you're on of the people trying to force your opinions on others and managed to gloriously miss my point.

Sure, your opinion is as valid as the next man's, but it doesn't mean you should keep telling people that theirs is wrong. It's a choice. You clearly feel marines should be more akin to the troops and practices of war today, others feel they should have a more regal and knightly look.

But I feel this clearly isn't going anywhere, except in circles.
Dicky

Easy E
30-12-2006, 15:25
If they are Blood Angels, then yes you want back banners. Some of the often over-looked fluff of the chapter is their love of the Arts. This is referenced in the 2nd Edition Angels of Death codex. It also was referenced in regards to Captain Tycho's ornate gold mask that he used to hide the shame of his disfigurement. So back banners are incredibly fluffy for marines, but especially Blood Angels.

I may need to go home an d try and find the exact quote.

Slaaneshi Slave
30-12-2006, 15:25
I have merely pointed out that its idiotic not to wear a helmet in a warzone. I did say I am for banners though. I'm not trying to force my opinion on anybody though, I don't really care what anybody I will never meet thinks. ;)

leonmallett
30-12-2006, 15:43
It is all ridiculous. The models represent soldiers rather than being the soldiers. Just because they heft overlarge wepaons, don't wear helmets or sport ludicrous banners doesn't mean that is how they would appear on the battlefield. Why? Because they are toy soldiers in a game set in a future that cannot bear any real relation to life in war as we lnow it.

Me, back banners and no helms all the way! But that is my choice. The choice to camouflage your marines (unfluffy as it now appears - sorry, but it does), not give banners to key models or give every marine a helmet is equally valid.

hiveminion
30-12-2006, 15:50
It is all ridiculous.

It's not more ridiculous than a forum with over 17,000 members, who have posted over a million posts the past two years, all discussing vigorously topics related to toy soldiers and rolling dice:eyebrows:

Carry on (topic)

MrBigMr
30-12-2006, 15:56
It is all ridiculous. The models represent soldiers rather than being the soldiers. Just because they heft overlarge wepaons, don't wear helmets or sport ludicrous banners doesn't mean that is how they would appear on the battlefield. Why? Because they are toy soldiers in a game set in a future that cannot bear any real relation to life in war as we lnow it.
Right. The model is just an artistic representation of the actual trooper.
Like if a model is carrying his rifle on his back or having a smoke, doesn't mean that he's doing it in battle. Having no helmet would just mean that the model doesn't wear it at the moment. You think that the little guy with the Dark Angel boss follows him into battle with the helmet?


The choice to camouflage your marines (unfluffy as it now appears - sorry, but it does), not give banners to key models or give every marine a helmet is equally valid.
It's not camo as in "you can't see me" but more of a "I'm a desert creature". More of a stylish than practical reason.
http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/juuso007/Pics/kings.jpg
Besides, I'm also gonna model guys getting a tan, building sand castles on their bases and having surf boards mounted on their Rhinos. Sort of Emperor's Pointy Sticks class humor with the "realistic" style. Something you could see real life soldiers doing. I know we did all sorts of crazy stuff in the army.

lapis_lazuli
30-12-2006, 16:02
I say yea... kind of.

I'm all for back banners. Particularly, as Flame Boy says, since they give you a fine way to add some flavour to a custom chapter. Of course, they make no sense given the technology of the forty first millennium (marines could just as easily identify each other with IFF HUD thingies like in the Dark Crusade intro and radio signals and such), but the point is humanity are a contradictory bunch. The Space Marines, in particular, are self-consciously archaic in their beliefs, equipment and practices, so banners make sense for them. So, erm, long story short: take banners. They niiiice.

I personally try to avoid taking bareheaded marines. Power armour is supposed to be fully enclosed for protection against biological/chemical agents and for operating on planets/spacecraft without breathable atmospheres. Also, power armour is light years ahead of modern ballistic armour so I don't think you can call a honeycombed plasteel-ceramite helmet useless in the same way that a kevlar one is. It will save your life. Having said this, a toy soldier simply represents said soldier at a single moment in time. So maybe he's just taken his helmet off for a second to sniff around, as Flame Boy and MrBigMr say. I don't have a problem with it.

So, basically, yep, go for it if you want.

ArtificerArmour
30-12-2006, 16:05
To be honest, If I was walking round in what is effectively concrete, I wouldn't mind having a banner on my back.

Khadhar'phak
30-12-2006, 16:27
In my opinion, back banners shouldn't be used for squad leaders. Sure, they look really cool, but it seems to give them a lot of status as it's practically heraldry. For characters like the Chapter Master himself, it can be justified as they would have their own heraldry. One thing going for banners on squad leaders though, is tht it can make ditinguishing squads a hell of a lot easier In the end though, it's just more to paint, right?:confused:

Also, bare heads are just cool to me. Sure, you aren't as protected as you should be, but I like painting aces, so I'm kind of biased.

In the end, it's your decision. If you're doing a pre-heresy army though, then definitly go for banners.

hiveminion
30-12-2006, 16:31
In my opinion, back banners shouldn't be used for squad leaders. Sure, they look really cool, but it seems to give them a lot of status as it's practically heraldry. For characters like the Chapter Master himself, it can be justified as they would have their own heraldry.

But doesn't every Marine (even Scouts in some chapters) display heraldry (the chapter's)? The banner doesn't necessarily have to display personal heraldry...

I believe you gave the best argument in this discussion yourself (even though it's contradictory with your statement)...they look cool!

Khadhar'phak
30-12-2006, 16:32
Hey, I wasn't arguing a case, just giving my mixed opinions. But they do lok bloody cool on Dark Angels and Black Templars and other heavily monastic chapters.

Khadhar'phak
30-12-2006, 16:55
Also (just thought of something) back banners do give you a chance to put on some nice detail work on a relatively plain model. For all of Space Marine's bonus points, they do have really simple basic models. Also, banners can be used to represent wargear (terminator honours anyone?).

MrBigMr
30-12-2006, 23:53
Stick a picture of George W Bush Senior on there! :p
Ain't my prez.
And the question is, how do I "stick it". Print and just plant it there on some gum?
On the subject, a friend has a fantasy army with his own picture on the army banner. Should put god's fear on the enemy.
The aquilifer was gonna be my Company/Regimental Standard on the command platoon. A large burgundy banner with a black aquila and some gold detailing. Add a text below the aquila, like "Terra" and/or the regiment number (103rd).
The imaginifers are placed in the infantry platoon command squads just for show. To remind the apes who they're fighting for (it'll be a Terran regiment).
I'm also planning on giving each squad a pole with an icon or number on top of it for identification (would also make it easier to keep track on which squads have moved/shot etc.).

t-tauri
31-12-2006, 00:05
Far too much spam here gentlemen. Lots of off topic posts deleted. Let's see if we can keep it on topic or whether we need to close the thread down.

t-tauri

The Warseer Inquisition

intellectawe
31-12-2006, 01:39
The only thing that got me pissed was the chair jockey comment. ;)

Well you shouldn't have spoken for all military personnel that ever lived.

I see no issue with back banners. I personally love the idea. Back banners just give little toy men more character with whatever cool designs people can put on the banner.

Codsticker
31-12-2006, 02:21
I say Nay (neigh? :confused: :p ).

nightgant98c
31-12-2006, 03:54
I personally don't like them. I can't imagine trying to get across a battlefield, or fight with a sword with a big pole on my back.

Tymell
31-12-2006, 16:00
It is all ridiculous. The models represent soldiers rather than being the soldiers. Just because they heft overlarge wepaons, don't wear helmets or sport ludicrous banners doesn't mean that is how they would appear on the battlefield. Why? Because they are toy soldiers in a game set in a future that cannot bear any real relation to life in war as we lnow it.

But surely that argument is essentially saying "If it can't be perfect, don't try it at all" by saying that because the 40K universe has some elements of fiction, there is no need for attempts at realism?

stonefox
31-12-2006, 16:56
But surely that argument is essentially saying "If it can't be perfect, don't try it at all" by saying that because the 40K universe has some elements of fiction, there is no need for attempts at realism?

If he's being serious (my Intratron sarcasmeter is going haywire), I'm just trying to wrap my head around the fact that every single army is based on a real-world idea or archetype with a sci-fi addon. But I must be mistaken since GW invented everything 40k-related.

Backbanners must be solar sails that harness energy to power the marine suits. I bet if you put enough marines on a boat, they'll be able to sail it.

Stormhammers
31-12-2006, 16:59
I personally dont use back banners but I have seen some with banners that are done very well, and in contrast, some look horrible. It all depends on the feel you are going for with your army. A more "knight" like army, with bright heraldry etc. banners work well, my army, a more sinister "super soldier" army clad in black and red with white symbols, the banners dont work. It all comes down to a matter of opinion. Me tho, yeah, I dont like them too much, it just plain looks goofy.