PDA

View Full Version : Fouling... acceptible?



th0r
29-12-2006, 16:42
Bit of an issue came up during my game with Keravin's Undead. Since I knew I was going to get pounded all game long I decided to take a chance and foul his only ghoul and ended up giving it a niggling injury. Now, he took exception to it, but believe it's just part of the game. I mean, he inflicted 3 SI and 2 BH on me without fouling, so I felt it was the only way to win the game. What do you guys think about it? Just wondering before I pick up DP as a skill.

Autobot HQ
29-12-2006, 16:47
Well, I think it's totally apart of the game, but then I do view Keravin a bit of a whiner :p hehe

Fouling carries risks, and if you do it without DP and have limited players, they will get caught and sent off, thus stopping you winning. Hell, I fully expect my Centaurs to get stood on. "people" just need to learn that valuable, AG3 non-regenerating players on a Ag2 team with no Apo acces is GOING to get targeted and stood on. What, we should stop taking Mighty Blow as it helps break armour?

I find mummies overpowered, so here's my deal - Fire all the mummies out there on your teams, and I wont foul your ghouls :p

A-HQ

erion
29-12-2006, 17:02
I foul depending on my team. Orcses is dirty players, and thus I foul with them as opportunities present themselves. Same thing with Chaos. But My pointies would never foul, and my Humans only if there is a player giving them a serious problem.

I remember repeatedly fouling a troll once, and taking him out of the game during the late first half, which allowed me to win in the 2nd half. Fortunately the guy I was playing thought it was brilliant strategy and applauded the tactic as very Orc-y.

Keravin
29-12-2006, 17:13
Mummies have limited move and no ag so sacrificial speedbumps take them out the game.

Fouling does not generate spp. What it does is screw over your opponent. It doesn't build your team, it destroys your opponents. The purpose of the game is to have fun. A close game where you both have a chance is infinitely more interesting than a beatdown or massacre.

I dislike fouling, but I don't sulk quite as much as Iscariot does when he loses :)

Keravin
29-12-2006, 17:16
If you want to win then take skills to play the game, not mess your opponent up. Take Dauntless, take strip ball, take sidestep so your opponent can't touch you.

erion
29-12-2006, 17:23
There wouldn't be rules for fouling if they weren't intended to be part of gameplay.

Keravin
29-12-2006, 17:27
They can be. Doesn't make them fun.

Yorkiebar
29-12-2006, 17:27
I feel that fouling is a part of the game that's there to be used. If it helps your situation, use it! I do feel that taking DP is going too far though, unless you use a Goblin team.

th0r
29-12-2006, 17:29
I think playing against your team messed up my team giving me 2 SI and 1 SI apothicaried not to mention the 2 BH. The foul was a tactical decision for taking out your only ghoul who also had blodge (I have no tackle). With him still in you probably would have won. I just get a little ticked when you give me a comment about how I play because I fouled once.

Autobot HQ
29-12-2006, 17:34
Mummies cause injuries which have no part of my fun in developing my team, so ner nikki ner ner

Btw, does anyone think I moan when I lose? I'm always laughing through my games, ask anyone whiney boy :)

Fouls are apart of the game, and Yes I will take a DP on my team, if only to disuade anyone else at fouling me! Fouling doesn't earn SPP but winning earns you more money, and if I take down your ghoul so you can't score and I can, I get SPP for the TD, and I win for more money and FF. Plus, next time I play you, the thing might be niggled and miss the game.

So yes, fouling is a perfectly tactical part of the game. I'm not saying (and assuming Th0r isn't saying) go out there and be a foul monkey every damn turn, because you do that and guess what, you've lost about 5 of your players being sent off, and caused alot of turnovers so lost control of the match. You lose, your own fault.

The trick is, I find, If you don't want me to foul your AV7 target, and pay heed to this bit as it's very technical, DON'T LET IT GET KNOCKED DOWN.

I know, it's cunning that one.

A-HQ

Keravin
29-12-2006, 17:39
Yep fouled once, stalled once. Damn me for thinking that playing the rules rather than the game isn't fun.

Yorkiebar
29-12-2006, 17:43
Arguing about this isn't getting anywhere. Everyone has the right to play the game as they like, if you don't like someone's playing style you can simply write about how sneaky and devious it is in a match report.

th0r
29-12-2006, 17:45
I think some people are taking blood bowl too seriously. Read the rulebook and tell me that I'm wrong.

Keravin
29-12-2006, 17:49
The bit I like in the rulebook is that it is a game both players should have fun. Make it tense, make it bloody, but make it fun.

th0r
29-12-2006, 18:01
So it's fun if you destroy my team, but if I make one of your players have a SI it's not? Bit of a double standard is it not?

Gres
29-12-2006, 18:06
Ah! A fouling thread. The WBBL forum is now truly christened. Personally if I am in a competitive game I may tactically foul but hopefully do not do so needlessly, it is unfortunate that the effectiveness of DP will not be sorted until FUMBBL goes LRB5 as DP and Get the Ref is a nightmare. At the moment DP is like the threat of a nuke and can become an arms race.

Keravin
29-12-2006, 18:07
Did I stall? Or did I go for the ball and bat you out the way on the way through.

One of those is about playing the game. The other is about playing the rules.

Now who is claiming double standards?

As Gres said this thing gets debated a lot on Fumbbl. There are people who believe in both stances, but don't be surprised that you don't get acceptance of your position.

Probably not the best topic to not lead to hurt feelings.

The Fumbbl irc stalwarts would advocate DP though.

th0r
29-12-2006, 20:30
Stalling, when did I ever do that? As I seem to remember I made sure I skilled my linemen while I had the chance as you were out of position. Thats not stalling, it's called being smart and skilling.

erion
29-12-2006, 20:35
Sounds a bit like a pissing contest to me...

Keravin
29-12-2006, 20:39
You do whatever you like. I've said my piece and I play the game my way. That's not yours and that's fine.

tenpole
30-12-2006, 11:07
On the Christmas Eve cup I fouled Autobots centaur on my very last turn, just because I was bitter.
But I had only done one casulaty to his team and in order to improve the fan factor roll you need to do two.

Daemon king Mad Dog
30-12-2006, 11:25
They can be. Doesn't make them fun.

Keravin, I play orcs, are you telling me an orc cares wether his opponent has been knocked down? And anyway, Blood Bowl aint about winning, heck we sometimes have a commentator with a microphone annoying all the other people! Even in a league your just there to have fun, if it's a really close game inbetween 2 rival teams then the players will be doing EVERYTHING they can to win the game! No matter what race they are! Are you also opposed to star players, such as my fungus the loon who i use as just a goblin fanatic, or a death roller?

EDIT: Keravin sounds a lot like my mate bowse, complains alot when people do nasty tricks against him... If Fouling is part of the rules and you don't like it, what abotu interceptions? Of course it's foul play! thats why it's called fouling ;)

Mad Makz
30-12-2006, 12:29
Half the rules in blood bowl are about insane dangerous behaviour like fouling, or bringing secret weapons like Chainsaws to the pitch!

Fouling is not only part of the game - it is actively encouraged by the rules.

If you can't take being fould then don't play Blood Bowl, as it's an important tactical part of the game (it's especially important to the game as it allows tough/important opposing figures who can run out on their own and avoid most if not all injuries due to either their strength + AV + Skills or Agility + skills to actually be taken out of the game.

Blood bowl is a tactical board game - the ONLY way to play it is to play the rules. In fact, it is written in such a way to ensure that both players police each other properly (turn counters, illegal procedures etc.) There's a big difference between the very tightly written rules for blood bowl which should pretty much cover every situation and are designed to allow players to juice the maximum tactical advantage out of them (while being thwarted with luck) compared to the very loosely written rules for other GW games which require an aspect of co-operation from both players.

If your best player get's fouled and you don't have any counter assists to soften the foul it's you own fault - I mean the game is called BLOOD Bowl, expect the opposition to bring the pain every opportunity they can get.

th0r
30-12-2006, 14:16
Funny that you mention about Orcs fouling, I find nothing funnier then the stuck up High Elves who obviously would never foul as there too noble, and then *Bam* a swift elbow while the ref isn't looking. Then in a "soccer" play the elf holds his hands up in the air and starts screaming at the ref that he didn't touch him while the opponent lies on the ground in obvious pain. For some reason this makes me laugh....

Keravin
30-12-2006, 14:38
Well as someone who has won tournaments as part of this league and others without fouling and has been playing since we had cardboard counters under a Brett Ewins cover I'd say I know how to play this game without fouling.

Learn to play better and you don't need to foul. All it does is try and make up for your inadequacies rather than play the team you actually agreed to play. Yes it's the rules, so you can do it.

Well only the rules in LRB 4.0. You'll have a bad time if you try fouling with LRB 5.0. Guess someone decided that the game could try something else.

th0r
30-12-2006, 15:03
I think im quite better then you since you only scored after I failed every roll for 3 turns. Don't call me out because we all know I will beat you again.

Autobot HQ
30-12-2006, 15:15
You play without fouling then matey :) Makes my game a WHOLE lot easier

Keravin
30-12-2006, 15:39
This is not a fun discussion. This is point scoring and doesn't foster a good atmosphere. I'm part of this league to have some fun games against hopefully pleasant opponents.

I deleted my response to you both because frankly that would have done nothing good.

th0r
30-12-2006, 15:45
Hopefully my future opponents will be pleasent enough to not degrade me for playing the game.

LordSnotball
30-12-2006, 16:20
the beauty with a tournament is that your opponent has to play when u have DPs... DP is a very useful and annoying skill at the same time.

My take is foul away, if ur opponent doesn't like it they can always foul you back, or send u crowd surfing.

Oh, and tactical fouls are something that should never be argued with. Learn to live with fouls, or even better, foul your opponent's DP.

best tactical foul situation i can give u as an example is turn 1 of the match. you block around till u get a guy prone. move the rest of your team around and foul with a dirty player of course. chances are a cas turn 1, you **** off your opponent (so he starts making tactical errors) and you have 1 extra player on the pitch.

get ur DP and try it out on me, u'll see that it does wonders!

-Snottie

Daemon king Mad Dog
30-12-2006, 22:56
Keravin, where you winning? Because if you were then thats a perfectly good reason to foul: Your winning, so i think i'll play dirty :P If you were drawing, then a good reason to foul, to get ahead, I want to win, so i'm going to foul you (In the mindset of the players here btw). If He's winning, then theres nto much reason to foul, but what the hey! i don't like that player! *Elbows*

I.E there is always a valid reason for fouling :p

EDIT: Sorry for soudning dumb, but whats a DP?

Yorkiebar
30-12-2006, 23:03
Keravin, where were you winning? Because if you were then thats that's a perfectly good reason to foul; "Your You're winning, so i I think i'll I'll play dirty" :P If you were drawing, then a good reason to foul, to get ahead, I want to win, so i'm I'm going to foul you (In the mindset of the players here btw). If He's he's winning, then theres there's nto not much reason to foul, but what the hey! i I don't like that player! *Elbows*

I.E there is always a valid reason for fouling :p

EDIT: Sorry for soudning sounding dumb, but whats a DP?

Fixed. [/grammar nazi]

DP is the Dirty Player skill. It's very effective and very frowned-upon by some, because they can see that that player is just going to foul and foul.

Daemon king Mad Dog
30-12-2006, 23:06
:) thanks for the spelling and DP thingy :D

th0r
30-12-2006, 23:11
For those of us used to playing in the ranked division and playing in smacks and cups, not having a DP or two opens you for tactical fouls with no valid defence. Most often DP is a deterent, but in some cases can win you the game.

Jo Bennett
30-12-2006, 23:21
I find this discussion a little bizarre. I've always taken the BloodBowl quote "get into 'em, get into 'em, FORGET THE BALL, get into 'em" as the central theme for my teams. The ball is a simply an interesting afterthought for when you've finished kicking seven shades of **** out of the opposing team, fouling forms an integral part of that. But then, my teams have mostly been Orcs and Norse. I also have a penchant for, towards the end of the game when it's clear no-one else is going to score, for ganging up on individuals and all putting in the boot together - nothing like a +8 bonus on the armour roll.

Jet
31-12-2006, 11:39
The major gripe I have with fouling is the way it is used by players new to the game. Often they do not know properly how to dodge/pass/cage, yet they still foul at the drop of a hat with little knowledge of what they are doing, take for example the T15 foul I received in my 2nd game from a new player, killing the unfortunate victim.

What happens is that if players learn first the ways of the bash & foul, they may never really learn the other aspects of the game, so stick to the bash & foul, making the play a bit lateral to oppose.

Gorbad Ironclaw
31-12-2006, 12:23
If all they know is how to foul, then they won't be winning many games either, so evetually they will have to learn how to actually play, or keep losing.

As for fouling, since it doesn't give you spp I don't do it so often. However, I will foul my opponents start blitzer/runner/thrower/big guy/whatever if I have the chance. If he is out, it's so much easier for me. Not getting spp for breaking his neck is something I'll just have to live with. :p

Yes, it's annoying as hell to have your guys fouled, but if you need some player off the pitch, it's a perfectly sensible way to go about it.

Mad Makz
01-01-2007, 02:28
Well as someone who has won tournaments as part of this league and others without fouling and has been playing since we had cardboard counters under a Brett Ewins cover I'd say I know how to play this game without fouling.

Learn to play better and you don't need to foul. All it does is try and make up for your inadequacies rather than play the team you actually agreed to play. Yes it's the rules, so you can do it.

Well only the rules in LRB 4.0. You'll have a bad time if you try fouling with LRB 5.0. Guess someone decided that the game could try something else.

The funny thing about this is that you are absolutely correct - you don't need to Foul to win - But this doesn't make it any less part of the game until it is removed from the game rules.

What it can do is help ensure victory when you're opponent has a chance for a come back or it can be part of the meta game of inflicting injuries to level the playing field a bit in the league by trying to get rid of that star player etc.

Now, you might not LIKE the meta game of league play, you might not LIKE fouling yourself, and you might feel the rules need to be changed to remove it from the game or make it less devestating/have more risk etc. These are all valid and well argued opinions.

What you can NEVER do is complain about other players using the rules as they stand in the game. It is ABSOLUTELY acceptable for people to use the foul rules in Blood Bowl, as long as you have both agreed to play with a version of the game that includes those rules. If you go of and berate people for using the rules that you agreed to play against them then you are being a bad sport.

The question of whether Fouling is a good thing for the rule set IS an interesting question - and I think a lot more interesting than trying to claim some sort of moral superiority over your opponents.

There is a lot to be gained from the discussion of "Are the foul rules good for Blood Bowl" so perhaps the conversation should be directed around that rather than the current status of it's acceptability and what anyone thinks of people who do/do not foul because people playing by the rules SHOULD NOT be penalised with some sort of social stigma by anyone else.

Jo Bennett
01-01-2007, 19:17
Personally, I think fouling is fun. It does come under the heading of "evil" tactics, like charging a group of snotlings with a bretonian lance. Fouling is part of what makes Bloodbowl the sort of game it is. If you chuck out fouling you might as well just have a board game that simulates american football and not bother with the secret weapons, the magic, the pitch invasions, riots, and all the other things that make the game great.

Spoonie
01-01-2007, 20:28
Yeah I have to admit, I've done some fouling, but there's only 1 type of player on every team that I'll foul, usually. If your whole strategy is centered around your bull centaur / werewolf / troll / whatever, expect him to be fouled if you leave him all alone. But, on the other hand, if somebody said before the game started "Hey, you know, I don't really think fouling is fair" I'd probably agree to forgoe fouling, even though I only average 1 foul a game anyways. The other thing to consider is some teams have a harder time dealing with uber positional player than others and might need to take that movement 10 gutter rutter off the field to have a hope of stopping you. Khemri for instance, is slow and can't dodge to save their life. This makes them pretty shoddy on defense at the best of times against a passing or fast running game.