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theDarkGeneral
29-12-2006, 20:13
Not sure if this has been addressed here already, but since I don't see it on the front page here, I thought I bring it up...

I talked to Jeff Hall from the US Tournaments Team that will be running and keeping track of all the points and the such for next years big Tourneys and asked him what armies would be legal?

I voiced mine and my gaming groups concern about the rumors of the Storm of Chaos Book getting banned all together and how frustrating that'd be because of all the time and money put into them...

He replied back that the only Army lists that will be illegal for 2007 are the ones that have current 7th Edition Books...mainly because they cause quite a few contradictions with the rules and the US Team isn't allowed to make or change the rules for the Edition or Army Books...thus there will be no Slayers of Karak Kadrin, no Armies of Middenhiem and no Grimgor Ironhide's 'Ard Boyz...but everything else will remain legal...


Hope this helps for those out there who have SoC Armies...

Spacejens
29-12-2006, 21:04
It seems to me that this is only a ruling for those tournaments, although they are good guidelines for how GW will handle this. I think that the most probable solution is for old army lists being gradually replaced by the newer books. So when the new chaos army list comes out, the daemon list from SoC will be invalidated. And so on.

Then again, this only holds true in tournaments and the like. Having never played in such a manner, I don't really care what the offical list of approved armies are. Although I do feel sorry for tournament players with armies being invalidated (bad manners from GW in my opinion).

BlazeXI
29-12-2006, 21:30
So soon the High Elfes become obsolete followed up by (my) Sylvania towards the end of the year. Looks like Chaos (including Cult of Slaanesh) will have longer longevity. At least in the US of A.

Rikkjourd
29-12-2006, 23:06
So soon the High Elfes become obsolete followed up by (my) Sylvania towards the end of the year. Looks like Chaos (including Cult of Slaanesh) will have longer longevity. At least in the US of A.

Don't feel bad already! Your armies will probably be easy to remake to fit a new army book... And that is what new editions do: Change rules etc and thereby forcing players to change their armies. Those who use SoC armies are just hit a _little_ bit more.

*hides away from 100 posts saying their army is hit the worst*

Bun Bun
02-01-2007, 12:17
It seems to me that this is only a ruling for those tournaments, although they are good guidelines for how GW will handle this. I think that the most probable solution is for old army lists being gradually replaced by the newer books. So when the new chaos army list comes out, the daemon list from SoC will be invalidated. And so on.

Perhaps but I see Gav finding a way to incorporate daemonic legion lists into the new codex as daemons really needed that list in my opinion.

Catferret
02-01-2007, 15:48
A GW friend of mine has told me the follwing Chaos books will be getting released late this year.

1. Mortal
2. Beasts (maybe just keeping current book)
3. Daemons
4. Chaos Dwarves!

This is just at the planning stage so is subject to change. The Mortal/Daemon split is pretty likely he said. The Chaos Dwarf thing may just be an idea that is floating around the Studio as a topic for discussion down the pub.

Zanzibarthefirst
02-01-2007, 17:17
the daemon lists could easily be incorported into like it is, allow heralds in normal lists, give all daemons real ward save etc...

unless they do with daemon what they did with beasts and mortals i.e. beasts are special etc in a mortal army

Dosadi
02-01-2007, 17:48
A GW friend of mine has told me the follwing Chaos books will be getting released late this year.

1. Mortal
2. Beasts (maybe just keeping current book)
3. Daemons
4. Chaos Dwarves!

This is just at the planning stage so is subject to change. The Mortal/Daemon split is pretty likely he said. The Chaos Dwarf thing may just be an idea that is floating around the Studio as a topic for discussion down the pub.

If it's just in the "planning stage" then they definatly will not be out late this year. All the books for the armies being released in 2007 are already written and in the playtesting stage.
I would speculate that we will see a new "HoC" book with the daemon stuff from SoC added in. Beasts of Chaos is pretty good as it is. I would consider an update something that would be fairly far down the list of needed revisions. That's not to say the book is not without it's issues. I don't think they will merge them into one big book as the Beasts are really cool as a stand alone force. I would like to see more of the "Evil Forces of Nature" aspect played up in a BoC re-do. Something that really puts them at odds with the Wood elves.
As for Chaos Dwarfs, I can't wait to see these guys in the new edition. I hope they keep the basics of the army with the newer look established with the Hellcannon crew and keep hobgoblins and O&G slaves with a real steampunk angle they will be one of the coolest armies out there and people will play them! I don't think we'll see them before 2008.


Dosadi

boltac lowleaves
02-01-2007, 19:18
Doesn't seem too bad for me, I mean the Storm of Chaos is a setting right? So the SoC lists should be used in that setting only, like the War of the Beard.

What I want to see is a ruling on the Regiments of Renown such as the way the Giants were just issued for many different armies, and now there are no DOW, so it has caused so much confusion in my circles.

GW needs to produce a page that lists the rules for RoR and so forth into your 7th army, aside from house rules. I recognize that the Tourney Players are more important, but the smaller clubs need this too.

Alpharius
02-01-2007, 19:24
Ha!

You must not have spent the time and money to convert up a Daemon Legion army then, I'm guessing?

Muncher666
03-01-2007, 01:51
Ha!

You must not have spent the time and money to convert up a Daemon Legion army then, I'm guessing?

I agree. When you release a book with an army list people are going to spend a lot of money converting an army to it's specs. It's silly to expect that people will convert an army for a 'scenario' and have that at that.

Allan.

laughingman
03-01-2007, 02:43
I did convert an army of slayers, it did suck that i cant use them in a tournament list but hey i enjoyed converting them, I hope anyone who converts does it because they enjoy it. What sucks is i have 100 slayers and no normal dwarfs, lol.

FlylikeaMouse
03-01-2007, 16:35
Does anyone know if there are plans for a new chaos book to be coming out soon?

There seems to be SO many rules for chaos spread over a library of books and old editions.

So many models, tournament legalitys and fluff issues.

I like the layout of the current army army book with the ability to mix and match between mortal / daemon and the four powers but imagine it would be somewhat easier if there were strict rules of only been able to take one power + undivided.

I was going to make a new thread but thought this was slightly on topic. Maybe a bit of a thread hi-jack sorry about that.

So recap... new book anytime soon to wrap things up???

Ozymandiass
04-01-2007, 17:07
I did convert an army of slayers, it did suck that i cant use them in a tournament list but hey i enjoyed converting them, I hope anyone who converts does it because they enjoy it. What sucks is i have 100 slayers and no normal dwarfs, lol.

Pick up a BfSP box or two and you'd have a full Dwarf army.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Rekmar
05-01-2007, 09:28
I did convert an army of slayers, it did suck that i cant use them in a tournament list but hey i enjoyed converting them, I hope anyone who converts does it because they enjoy it. What sucks is i have 100 slayers and no normal dwarfs, lol.

Just because they aren't tournament legal, doesn't mean that you can use them still. At the club I go to there is a Warhammer campaign currently being run that features 2 slayer armies, a demonic legion and a Cult of Slaanesh.

As long as you inform you opponent before hand, I can't see a reason as to why anyone would grudge you using the army in a game.

speedygogo
06-01-2007, 10:37
I personally think that the baning of SOC armies sucks. It is alot like the WD army list that avalid long enough to bait some poor fool to buy them and then a month later they are no longer valid. I just wish GW would play test list better and keep published lists as valid. Spending tons of money on something you can't use just plain sucks. I know some people have said that you could incorporate models into an existing army but if someone wanted to do that they would have bought a standard army. To me the stratagy appears to be a carefully conceived plan to chase people out of the warhamer hobby.

Spacejens
06-01-2007, 12:13
Frankly, I don't see how banning lists forces someone out of the hobby. It forces people out of the official tournaments, true, but many inofficial tournaments allow the lists. And so do lots of casual gamers.

So, while GW is indeed showing bad manners, they are not shutting people out completely.

Muncher666
06-01-2007, 13:02
They might as well be. Even though I would allow it, saying that you 'require your opponents permission' is like giving the army 'The Black Spot'. It's not cool, especially considering the nature of the armies that have been informally killed off. Very specialized - what the hell am I supposed to do with a demon chariot?!

Allan.

NakedFisherman
06-01-2007, 18:23
The SoC armies were abominations, anyway.

The sooner they disappear from gaming tables, the better.

Mordu22
06-01-2007, 19:09
Goblin Hewer is still legal though, I cannot get enough of that thing entrenched. When I read the GT rules I was worried because of the No slayer army...But its RoR so :evilgrin:

Rekmar
06-01-2007, 19:22
The SoC armies were abominations, anyway.

The sooner they disappear from gaming tables, the better.

Can't really agree with this. Yes some of them seemed better than others, but I still reguarly play against most of the armies or field my High Elves in Lothern Sea Guard format. Maybe the armies weren't play tested enough, but a game that was stale as it was, IMO, when SoC was released, needed these armies to refresh it.

Realistically, however, most of the SoC armies are easily convertible to the 'normal' rules and therefore are just going to morph even though they may lose the odd unit (e.g. demonic chariots and merwyrm)

Interestingly I've just read the 2007 Stateside tournament rule pack, and the SoC armies seem to be legal for the US Grand Tournaments. It will be interesting to see if the UK follows suit...

sulla
06-01-2007, 20:34
The sad thing about it is that my DE would lost the best magic items they have access to. The ones in SoC and the rewards from dark shadows were far more useful than the ones in the book for the most part.

Zanzibarthefirst
09-01-2007, 21:03
hellcannons are still legal as well

Onisuzume
09-01-2007, 21:10
Any word on the Cult of Ulric or Lizardmen Sacred Hosts? (the latter was tournament legal last time I checked)

6262
10-01-2007, 18:04
Where can I find out more about the possibility of a new Chaos "army book"? I'd heard that High Elves and maybe Vampire Counts were in the queue but this is the first mention I'm hearing of those crazy northerners.

Court
13-01-2007, 21:11
Well it's always been regional about what armies are used no? Pretty sure every country keeps their own set of tourney rules.

And on the new Chaos dex bit, it's about time. That old Hordes is awful, prolly the worst laid out dex in the range. I miss the old edition chaos book box set with a characters dex, an army dex etc, that was cool.

DjtHeutii
13-01-2007, 22:20
They have put up the Official GT page:

http://gt.us.games-workshop.com/Rules/wh_lists.htm

dragonlady
14-01-2007, 00:22
The US GT list does allow some of the SOC lists still, for this year, this includes the Slayer Dwarf list. It was decided that since the list had an updated 7th Edition FAQ associated with it, that it was still good!

laughingman
14-01-2007, 01:42
i really hate the slayer list, although i own it, I play it when I want to kill my opponents, the fact that it is still legal blows my mind.

Suri_Mapother
14-01-2007, 20:35
Really? I could never win one game with it.

Your opponents probably tried to fight it in close combat, which is really, really stupid.

MiketheFish
16-01-2007, 08:29
The SoC armies were abominations, anyway.

The sooner they disappear from gaming tables, the better.

Absolutely agreed. They are probably one of the most skewed unbalanced horrors that GW ever set loose on the gaming table. And considering the scource that's saying a lot. I can't believe they ever playtested them.

JT-Y
16-01-2007, 20:54
As I understand this, and I may well be out of date on this as I don't play WFB anymore:

The SoC lists aren't allowed in UK GW events, but many are still allowed by GW in other countries.
As for other organisations, like WPS and Britcon, I understand that use of SoC lists is entirely the decision of the event organizer/bloke writting the rules, and in most cases I'd also epect some clarrification of rules pertinant to the specific event (official or otherwise, as long as rows are reduced on the day, Slayer Axes and character stats for eg) so ask beforehand.

Personally, I think this is as it should be. Whilst its true that some armies are monsters, its not fair to prohibit someone who has spent the cash to build the army. In the case of Deamonic Legion, Slayers and 'Ard Boyz thats no small amount of cash due to all the metal.

Vicente von Carstein
05-04-2007, 09:34
Not sure if this has been addressed here already, but since I don't see it on the front page here, I thought I bring it up...

I talked to Jeff Hall from the US Tournaments Team that will be running and keeping track of all the points and the such for next years big Tourneys and asked him what armies would be legal?

I voiced mine and my gaming groups concern about the rumors of the Storm of Chaos Book getting banned all together and how frustrating that'd be because of all the time and money put into them...

He replied back that the only Army lists that will be illegal for 2007 are the ones that have current 7th Edition Books...mainly because they cause quite a few contradictions with the rules and the US Team isn't allowed to make or change the rules for the Edition or Army Books...thus there will be no Slayers of Karak Kadrin, no Armies of Middenhiem and no Grimgor Ironhide's 'Ard Boyz...but everything else will remain legal...


Hope this helps for those out there who have SoC Armies...

oh.....that sucks

TheStrategist
05-04-2007, 16:06
Doesn't seem too bad for me, I mean the Storm of Chaos is a setting right? So the SoC lists should be used in that setting only, like the War of the Beard.

JUst because the SoC is over doesn't mean that those armies just disappear. Those armies still exist in the Warhammer World (even if only in fluff), and the problem that I see with using the choices from the new army book to be able to use the choices from the SoC lists is that a lot of the times, the rules arent good enough. For example, what unit can I use to represent my 6 points WS4 S5 Warriors of Ulric? And now that Knights of the White Wolf have been nerfed by the new rules and with no magic items, that really complemented the army of Middenland, we are left eith Flaggelants in place of Wolf-Kin (as much as it shames me to say so) and Greatswords in place of Teutogen Guard (yay!:cries: ). Great work GW. The thing is, my main point by far, is that if I use the new Empire rule set to represent my Army of Middenland, the army will function alot worse, because they took away our strong units, replaced them with stupid engineers and such, which no self-respecting follower of Ulric would ever take.

K, rant over. But still, the Storm of Chaos and GW's policy after it really stank.

My humble 2 pennies.

Dead Man Walking
06-04-2007, 04:19
The sooner the SOC armies disapear the better.

I conscider all SOC armies to be by opponents permission. It goes like this;

Me: "Hi, looking for a Fantasy Game?"

A player: "Oh yeah man, 2150?"

Me: "Yeah, I brought lizardmen, you?"

A Player: "I brought (insert SOC army here)."

Me: "Sorry man, I don't play against SOC, have anything else with you?"

A Player: "No..."

Me: "Hi, looking for a fantasy Game?"

I refuse to play any SOC army list and won't play against an SOC list unless I am forced to in a tourney. Its not because I have lost to them (Since I refuse to play against it I havent played against any, though I have seen the broken lists played against other armies.) but because I look at the lists and my brain screams at me that these lists are not only broken but they are rediculous and I cant expect anyone to actually enjoy playing against me with one of these armies. Its not about winning. Its about 2 people enjoying this hobby.

exsulis
06-04-2007, 07:02
The SOC lists weren't that bad.

Vicente von Carstein
06-04-2007, 07:17
yeah most of them are awesome

Green Feevah!
06-04-2007, 08:28
I think the biggest reason they are trying to 'downsize' (read: get rid of) soc armies is because with every single list in that book, if you wanted to win the games you played, why would you play the regular army? At my club we have a lot of people who play the soc lists, and these are the same people who build cheesy, crappy lists in 40k and pout when they lose. And nothing is more sad than watching a full-grown man pout when his little plastic soldiers are beaten by someone else's little plastic soldiers.

Someone earlier had said that if you put the time and the money into an army than you should be allowed to play it, but if that's the road GW takes, then this whole hobby comes down to 'he with the most money wins', and don't we get enough of that in our day-to-day?

the vicar
06-04-2007, 08:35
And here I really liked, for fluff reasons, my SOC Cult of Slaanesh Dark Elves. Fluffwise because I never really understood why these people who sought out pleasure &c. were big gnarly metal-clad behemoths (chaos marauders & warriors). Seems so much more natural for them to be the prissified Dark Elves.

And as far as them being overpowered, I have difficulties actually winning with my list. Granted, it could be because I'm still new with them (about 3-4 games @ 2k points), but regardless, if they were so overpowered, I shouldn't have such a hard time figuring them out, should I?

cold0
06-04-2007, 10:43
Well I must admit that I like the SoC lists. I often play with the Archaon's Horde, more for the Fluff than to build a powerful/competitive army list; I choise to play with the human followers of Chaos Gods, mainly Marauders Horsemen, Marauders, Chaos Knights (it's possible to take the Chosen as Special Units), so I prefer it over the HoC list.

Urgat
06-04-2007, 11:48
I refuse to play any SOC army list and won't play against an SOC list unless I am forced to in a tourney. Its not because I have lost to them (Since I refuse to play against it I havent played against any, though I have seen the broken lists played against other armies.) but because I look at the lists and my brain screams at me that these lists are not only broken but they are rediculous and I cant expect anyone to actually enjoy playing against me with one of these armies. Its not about winning. Its about 2 people enjoying this hobby.

Mmh, so you decide for you opponent that he is not gonna enjoy playing with his own army and therefore save him the trouble.
Man you're a saint! :evilgrin:

I don't mind playing against a SoC army personally, makes for a change, and they're still way more balanced than that 5th edition chaos army I used to fight every week, so meh :p

Hashut's Li'l Helper
06-04-2007, 18:34
The sooner the SOC armies disapear the better.

I conscider all SOC armies to be by opponents permission. It goes like this;

Me: "Hi, looking for a Fantasy Game?"

A player: "Oh yeah man, 2150?"

Me: "Yeah, I brought lizardmen, you?"

A Player: "I brought (insert SOC army here)."

Me: "Sorry man, I don't play against SOC, have anything else with you?"

A Player: "No..."

Me: "Hi, looking for a fantasy Game?"

I refuse to play any SOC army list and won't play against an SOC list unless I am forced to in a tourney. Its not because I have lost to them (Since I refuse to play against it I havent played against any, though I have seen the broken lists played against other armies.) but because I look at the lists and my brain screams at me that these lists are not only broken but they are rediculous and I cant expect anyone to actually enjoy playing against me with one of these armies. Its not about winning. Its about 2 people enjoying this hobby.
Do you also avoid playing skaven, brets, dwarfs, and vc's because they have the potential to be "rediculous"? It's nice of you to set yourself up as the moral arbiter of warhammer play, especially as you clearly have so much experience playing these so called "rediculous" armies. Certainly neither you nor your opponent would have any fun if your lizardmen were to play such OTT, one trick armies as Middenland, Sylvania, or Grimgors hoard.

Finnigan2004
06-04-2007, 18:47
Do you also avoid playing skaven, brets, dwarfs, and vc's because they have the potential to be "rediculous"? It's nice of you to set yourself up as the moral arbiter of warhammer play, especially as you clearly have so much experience playing these so called "rediculous" armies. Certainly neither you nor your opponent would have any fun if your lizardmen were to play such OTT, one trick armies as Middenland, Sylvania, or Grimgors hoard.

You missed: wood elves, empire gunlines, lizard man skink heavy lists, and various chaos (Tzeentch especially). Could get really tough to find games after a while :eyebrows:. In terms of power gaming, if I didn't use the SOC khorne daemon list for variety, I'd be better off using Hordes of Chaos daemon rules. Individually weaker, but it would be bad for most opponents if I showed up with 70 flesh hounds in 14 units (legal in hordes of chaos, but not in storm of chaos). Cheese can be accomplished with any army (Ogre Kingdoms notwithstanding).

TheWarSmith
06-04-2007, 19:00
Daemonic Legion NEEDED to be made. It wasn't so much a variant as it was a necessity to right what was wronged. HoC Daemon lists are god awful without DL lists(specifically tzeentch).

DL were created to let chaos players run a daemonic army the way it should be run.

Parka boy
06-04-2007, 19:41
Goblin Hewer is still legal though, I cannot get enough of that thing entrenched. When I read the GT rules I was worried because of the No slayer army...But its RoR so :evilgrin:

Why the thing is unbreakable anyway so what difference does entrenched make it?

It will be sad if deamons don't get there own list along with beasts and mortals.

yabbadabba
06-04-2007, 20:11
Storm of Chaos is a great example of where GW genuinely tried to do something "hobby" and got bit on the ****. Shame really.

All the lists is SOC are great, and reflect the SOC campaign a treat. For me, post campaign, the challenge is how to beat them down at my club. The people I play with are as much into having a laugh and helping each other, as they are about creating some beardy monstrosities and destroying all of warhammer civilisation :D

I have a word of warning to anyone attempting to find tournament loopholes. Don't. GW will track them down and close them. This will mean you end up investing in something which will eventually be banned from their events. People who sit here and moan about GW controlling their products, responding to the majority of players when issues crop up, and then officially adjudicating on them, will drive GW to think "why bother". And then all we will have is bland, uninteresting games and armies to maintain perfect balance.

The new DA codex will look like a full colour, totally interactive and completely open ended computer game compared to what they could produce. Remember DBM and DBA! (For the wrinklies out there ;) )

Vogon
06-04-2007, 22:06
I play both Cult of Slaanesh and (Slaanesh) Daemonic Legion. I don't thin keither are overpowered but both have great character and are something a bit different.

I already played Dark Elves so getting a unit each of Daemonettes and Mounted Daemonettes was no great thing. Then adding a couple of characters, another unit of each Daemonettes and converting some Pleasure Seekers and a chariot effectively gave me three armies to choose from instead of just one.

If these armies are phased out and people are no longer “allowed” to play them then all those who spent a lot of time effort and of course money building an army have every right to be hacked off and I think the game will be all the worse for it.

I had hoped that they would be absorbed into the each race’s main list in one form or other especially new models and units that GW produced models for but if the recent Empire army book is anything to go by it looks like this is not going to happen.

Cheers

Vogon

gjnoronh
06-04-2007, 22:18
Take a look at the actual finishes for SoC lists before you say they are broken


From Hashut's little helper on Warseer

Baltimore GT 2005
top 10 demonic legion: none
top 2 demonic legion : 11, 16

MinneapolisGT 2005
top 10 demonic legion: one
top 2 demonic legion : 2,12

Seattle GT 2005
top 10 demonic legion: one
top 2 demonic legion : 2,23

Chicago GT 2005
top 10 demonic legion: one
top 2 demonic legion : 7,19

Atlanta GT 2004
top 10 demonic legion: none
top 2 demonic legion :14,42

UKGTS

Heat 1GT 2005
top 10 demonic legion: none
top 2 demonic legion :12,21

heat 2GT 2005
top 10 demonic legion: two
top 2 demonic legion :5,7

heat 3GT 2005
top 10 demonic legion: one
top 2 demonic legion :7, 23

UKGT 2006 (for the 2005 season)
top 10 demonic legion: none
top 2 demonic legion :results not posted

9 tournaments top ten finishes
Demons 6
Skaven 9
Bret 12
Lizzies 14
wood elf 7 (despite being allowed in only 5 of 9 tourneys)

Now I realize that all these armies are high cheese, but you rarely hear as many complaints about lizzies and woodies as demons.

That's a little dated but since then if you run the numbers we've seen dwarves and WE gain a little ground and no significant change in the number of DL lists.

The only DL list that has had a significant impact on the top of the GT scene is Nurgle DL - the rest have few top three finishes between them.

I've heard of one US Indy GT (out of 35 or so last year) one by a Slayers list, but that's it for SoC lists outside of DL with a top finish to my recall.

But clearly if someones looked at the book and decided somethings broken without actually playing with or against it - they must know something that the actual stats of GT finishes aren't reflecting (sarcasm now off. .. )

memitchell747
09-04-2007, 04:57
SoC could be broken, just like almost any army. It was a great attempt by GW to add variety and narrative. I think they missed on a few levels. For one, the SoC lists play well against each other, one tends to counter another. But, a few of them were unimaginative in that they took a reasonable restriction to unreasonable extremes (Slayers). They also ignored the fact that for every one gamer who will build a very unique army just because he can, there are thousands who wont, or who will only do this if the army is fully useful long after the event. And, disallowing said armies further down the road only seals their fate.

I applaud SoC, Lustria, the WD armies, etc. If we could get past the tournament mentality, and the idea that every army has to be optimized for a 2000 pt. Pitched Battle, some fun might creep back into this hobby. Don't be surprised if we gamers get exactly what we bitched for. A stultifying, simple, unimaginative game that sucks in newbs and spits out vets. Sound familiar?

druchii
09-04-2007, 17:43
The SoC armies were abominations, anyway.

The sooner they disappear from gaming tables, the better.


Oddly enough, I agree.

If one takes a look at my SoC(Errantry war) version of my Bretonnian list, you'll notice that not a single thing changed, from the release of the SoC and the initial release of Brets.

Although when I play my Errantry War my list drastically improves. I literally get a free 20 point banner in every one of my Errant units(of which I have three) AND they get to roll an extra D6(and pick the highest) on pursuit moves.

darn.

Seriously though, I think some of the SoC lists were incredible. The Middenheim list, the Cult of Slaanesh, the horde, and the daemonic legion lists were a wonderful addition to the game. But the Errantry war and slayer lists were just retarded.

d

TheWarSmith
09-04-2007, 18:38
I agree that not all of the lists were good, but some of them were REALLY crucially needed.

I think the Cult of Slaanesh really puts a cool spin on things, and I love the background.

Daemonic Legion, as I've stated, should NOT be limited to SoC, as the list is really the way a daemonic led army SHOULD play.

Vicente von Carstein
20-04-2007, 02:52
SoC could be broken, just like almost any army. It was a great attempt by GW to add variety and narrative. I think they missed on a few levels. For one, the SoC lists play well against each other, one tends to counter another. But, a few of them were unimaginative in that they took a reasonable restriction to unreasonable extremes (Slayers). They also ignored the fact that for every one gamer who will build a very unique army just because he can, there are thousands who wont, or who will only do this if the army is fully useful long after the event. And, disallowing said armies further down the road only seals their fate.

I applaud SoC, Lustria, the WD armies, etc. If we could get past the tournament mentality, and the idea that every army has to be optimized for a 2000 pt. Pitched Battle, some fun might creep back into this hobby. Don't be surprised if we gamers get exactly what we bitched for. A stultifying, simple, unimaginative game that sucks in newbs and spits out vets. Sound familiar?

I completely agree

I made my sylvanian army for mainly background choices (vampire lord trying to take over sylvania and unite the vampires under one banner [while trying to invade the empire of course:D . And because it allowed me to spend my points on vampires and still get the ever needed magic support , which is the main reason why I started VC, for vampires. I ve met people who refused to play against me because of my army. I do admit the soC lists might be a little unbalanced. but still the main point of the game is to have fun

Jonke
20-04-2007, 03:37
The problem with soc as well as different wd lists are they are out of print. This is only a problem in a tournament setting where you as a participant should be able to compete on the same conditions as your opponent. That is have access to the rules of all different lists allowed in the tournament (both to play and to know your enemy).

In a club environment there shouldn't be a problem to get hold of a copy of soc or just read thru the rules pre-game.

I for one think all these alternative lists are great additions to the hobby, gw games aren't made for tournament play. They're made for having a fun night with your friends. Tournaments should more be seen as a chance to play against new opponents and really indulge in the gaming,not as a competition. Games are about winning and loosing, but if you're into the hobby 'cause of the kick you get when winning I think online poker is a better solution.

Peace!

TheWarSmith
20-04-2007, 03:42
I agree almost 100% with Jonke. Tournaments have their place, I'll admit, but how things play in tournaments should NOT be the main factor of things.

Dicey
30-04-2007, 12:02
The SOC book is open to abuse, true. But so are all the books, have you seen the empire gun line with 4 cannons?

I am mainly a 40K player, and decided to start fantasy. I played a few mortal chaos games (borrowed models) to learn the game and find out how I prefered to play.

I sat down in the store one day and read SOC, the bloodcrushers came to my mind as a cool modeling oppertunity. At ~£15 per model they would not be cheap. But I though I could build my whole army round a unit of 4 with a herlad on a juggernaut joining them.

Now with SOC being withdrawn I can sub all my models into a HOC list except my prized bloodcrushers. at ~£75 for the unit. I think I have the right to feel upset. Although you can use the list outside GTs etc. I normally play in a store and the staff there dont support my army and tell people its not a valid list.


In 40K i play DA and DE, I have never lost with my DE list. It is very agresive and hard hitting. IMHO it is more "unbalanced/ cheese" than my SoC list, but my DE is perfectly aceptable.

I suppose after sayign all this what could I use my bloodcrushers as in a game?

Spacejens
30-04-2007, 12:50
I suggest using each bloodcrusher as two Chosen chaos knights of Khorne. The base you used is twice as wide as a normal cavalry model, yes?

TheWarSmith
30-04-2007, 13:35
Yes, they're on 50x50 bases. Alternatively, you can use them as your heroes/lords.

So toss 3 of them down and say that's 6 chosen khorne knights.

I can kind of understand voiding the SoC lists for which army books have been created since, as trying to mesh all old lists when a new book is created would be a real hassle, and SoC lists weren't playtested with the new books.

Daemonic Legion is really necessary to get the appropriate feel. Try playing a tzeentch daemon army from HoC and just enjoy being slammed down all day long because the list blows @!%!^@ so much.

Brother Siccarius
30-04-2007, 15:49
The sooner the SOC armies disapear the better.

I conscider all SOC armies to be by opponents permission. It goes like this;

Me: "Hi, looking for a Fantasy Game?"

A player: "Oh yeah man, 2150?"

Me: "Yeah, I brought lizardmen, you?"

A Player: "I brought (insert SOC army here)."

Me: "Sorry man, I don't play against SOC, have anything else with you?"

A Player: "No..."

Me: "Hi, looking for a fantasy Game?"

I refuse to play any SOC army list and won't play against an SOC list unless I am forced to in a tourney. Its not because I have lost to them (Since I refuse to play against it I havent played against any, though I have seen the broken lists played against other armies.) but because I look at the lists and my brain screams at me that these lists are not only broken but they are rediculous and I cant expect anyone to actually enjoy playing against me with one of these armies. Its not about winning. Its about 2 people enjoying this hobby.

Seriously? You think Grimgor's 'Ardboys was broken? It was a well balanced list! I'd use the current army book for them but I wont get the one thing that made me able to survive without a scroll caddy, the great big indestructable head of gork!

Vogon
02-05-2007, 17:36
It's interesting to note that the Nemesis crown booklet in the May white Dwarf actually encourages the use of the SoC Orc list in the themed list advise section.

I wonder who put that in there now it’s not “legal”

Cheers

Vogon

Weregerbil
02-05-2007, 23:32
The SoC lists are just not "legal" in the UK when used at GW HQ and and other GW events. The lists are still fine for games in the stores and at clubs.

I was at a tourament at the weekend and played a Soc list and had no problem with it(only game I won).

Besides if you go to 1 tourament a year at workshop thats what 6 games you can't use it for, out of the 100's you play during the year, just use an other army.

And yes the Daemonic legion was needed and still is.

And last of all, I managed to delete my SoC PDF's if any one knows where I can get them could you drop me a PM.

Vogon
03-05-2007, 00:28
Try Here

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/stormofchaos/default.htm

Cheers

Vogon