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Greatoliver
30-12-2006, 01:04
Hi y'all!

Recently I've become increasingly distressed with the Trait BSATW that's meant to replace the whole White Scars rules so I decided I would uncover the old rules and use them. Thanks to the guys who told me where they were, I have now obtained them.

But, I've got a few problems and I need some advice about how to solve them..:

Now, in the rules, you have to take some things for granted. As this was made using the older SM Codex, some things are missing. My first problem is that Bikers always used to have Bolt Pistols, as well and Frag and Bikes. This may not seem a problem at first glance, but one of the WS-only rules is that WS Bikers may take an additional CCW for a point. This means that Bikers are much better in combat as they have an extra attack and it is an important aspect of WS.

But, with no Bolt Pistols, this seems uselss. Now, as BPs are uslesss on Bikes, there are two things I could do to sort out this problem. Firstly, I could just say that they have the Bolt Pistol at no extra cost, thus making it flow nicely. Or, which would be more fair, I could pay two points for two CCWs. You opinions?
__________

Now, here's another problem relating to the one above. With 4th Ed. SMs, you can take Attack Bikes in Bike Squads. This is fine and dandy until you get to the CCW rule. It states that all of the members without Special Weapons can take one and I was wondering if this could be passed on to Attack Bikes. My gut instinct says no, but I'd like your opinions.
__________

That's the end of the problems but I'd like some advice on the next few things.

WS Bikes are very well priced, as they have all the normal Bike things as well as gaining the Skilled Rider, Counter-Attack and Hit & Run Special Rules. Another thing that WS get to have is the Power Lance. This is a Power Weapon at the cost of a Space Marine that gives you +1I on the charge or counter-charge. Nice bit of kit.

But, I'm having problems deciding over this or the Power Fist. For my HQ's, it's be the PL, though what should I do with my Vet. Serges? Also, with my Veteran Vet. Serges, they'll have Furious Charge and I think that the PL would be better suited - do you think I am correct?
__________

With all these benefits, WS do have some restrictions. Firstly, all infantry must be transported, sans Command Squads and Veteran Squads which can be mounted. Choosing is difficult, so once again, your advice is welcomed.

Troops: I thought I'd start with these as they are the main thing of an army. What I was planning to do was to have 10 man squads (allowed) with an Attack Bike weilding an HB, with a Plasma Gun and a Melta-Gun. There would be a Vet. with a PF/PL as well. All would also have 2 CCWs. This would be the basic template for my whole army as I have already decided and found out that the two Special Weapons work together.

But, the problem I have is whether I should have a Multi-Melta or a Heavy Bolter on my Attack Bike. The HB provides a good anti-GEq gun, while the MM would provide Anti-Tank plus Anti-MEq. :rolleyes:

BTW, I might use a Tactical Squad and also I've got some Scouts with Snipers to use, which I will.

The last thing is about grenades. Either I could have a Melta-Bomb on the Vet. or I could give Kraks to all the squad. Melta's to the whole squad is too much - Opinions?

Elites: Basically large Veteran squads with a Power Weapon and Lightning Claws, with a Vet. with a PL, at full squad size. Then follows template. Bear in mind that I'm not sure about thw PL and a PF might be better on the Vet. Anything wrong?

Just to say, no Termies for me as they need to be transported in a LR, and i don't particularily want them anyway.

Fast Attack: This is pretty much sorted. Assault Squadrons are out as normal Bike can tak up their role, and they are pansies. Scout Bikers are out as even though they can always start in Reserves and come on from any edge - it's not good enough IMO. So, it's Landspeeders. I plan to have three squads, one with pure Landspeeder of the Tornado variety, with Ass. Cannons; one with two Ass. Cannons and a Typhoon; and the last will have three with MMs and HFs. Yum! Too cheesy? :cheese:

HQ: With HQs, all are viable choices. Firstly, I think Command Squads are a must, as it allows the IC to gain from the Veteran Skills as well. These are also handy as they make a great cross between shooty and CCy, with Champions and two Special Weapons. I think with the Vet. Serge should have a PF though I'm not sure. I'd have a full command (10 models) minus the extra IC and the Standard Bearer. Onto the IC's.

Captain - He's good as he's nothing special. CCW and a PL should fair him well and still make him horrible in combat.

Chaplain - The problem with this is that he's already got a PW. This puts me off as giving him a PL would negate the use of this. Apart from that, he'd be great as he boosts the whole Command Squad with his Liaties of Hate rule.

Libraian - The utter dastard of SM. Give him Veil of Time, a Familiar and a PL, you can get 6 St5 I8 Power Weapon attack on the charge, re-rolling everything! But, it's very expensive. Plus, the Force Weapon goes to waste...

(Side note: I also plan to put Combat Shields on everything I can - they're great!)

What do you think?

Heavy Support/Infantry: This is where WS is great - you get all the tanks! What I plan to do, is to have a mass of Bike rolling forwards with a small amount of tanks at the rear, blasting away. I plant to use two Annihalators with HB sponsons and a Whirlwind with Castellan missiles, as it sounds good at blocking off enemies. Might change a Pred to a Destructor.

I plan to also put a couple of Tactical Squads into Razorbacks and give them a Lascannon or a Missile Launcher for support, with HB's on the 'Back. It'll hopefully work well. Too much?
__________

Whew...That's me tired...Thanks for all the replies and I get and thanks for reading. I'm looking forward to play with this modified list as it look great fun. Hopefully my opponents don't refues to play! :p

Cheers,

prose.
30-12-2006, 02:20
I think it's great that you're doing this. I would love to play against your old-school rules scars -with my traited Scars no less. Now that would be a cool battle (You'd win). Scars have lost so much flavour with the new rules.

I'd say at least two points for the two close combat weapons. Maybe as much as five. An extra attack on a bike is pretty good in 4th (yay chaos). Especially one that can hit and run and all that other fun stuff. That said, only playtesting can really iron that one out. Go with 2 or 3 points for now.

As to your tactical bike squadrons - Specialize. If they're there for tank/heavy infantry busting, go all out. Two meltas, attack bike with multi-melta and a vet with a combi-melta. If they're gonna get stuck in fast, don't give them any special weapons as they wont ever shoot much and the squad is more or less just wounds for the sgt. I can't risk losing an expensive biker to an overheat so I eschew plasma but whatever floats your boat. If you're gonna go down that road I still reccomend you specialize for a small, cheap anti-MEq unit of 5. Two plasmas and a combi plasma, no attack bike.

White scars scout bikes with melta bombs are amazing. I'm amazed you've written them off. They can appear wherever they're needed and destroy a big thorn-in-your-side tank then run amok behind enemy lines tying up units and maybe even killing stuff. That's pretty sweet for 81 points.

Corax
30-12-2006, 02:36
I've always liked the White Scars, and I thought it was a shame that they nerfed their rules when the new Codex came out.

Personally, I don't really think that the Power Lance is all that good. Sure, it gets you +1I when you assault, but after the first round of combat, you get -1I. That's fine if you plan to Hit & Run a lot, but there are times when that's not a good idea. The PF is an option, as you are getting +1T from the bike, which will give you a little extra staying power. The thing is that with the cost of bikes, you can't really afford to use the other bikes for ablative wounds, as each bike lost represents a larger slice of your total. With expensive models (be they bikes or anything else) you want to strike as early as possible in the combat round in order to prevent slower (and possibly cheaper) models having the chance to strike back. In the case of WS bikers, I would go with ordinary PWs as they will strike at their normal I regardless of what combat round it is.

Really, when you think about it, what does the +1I give you? It does allow you to strike before Marines (which is good) and at the same time as basic Eldar (useful). Other than that, pretty much everything else is either faster or slower anyway. Personally, I think it has limited application, but thats just me. OTOH, I do like the model for the Power Lance...

Anyway, onto the various FOC units...

For HQs, I always find it hard to go past the Chaplain. He comes with an Inv. Save, and a PW and LoH. Great value, IMO.

Due to the restrictions regarding transports, you are a bit limited with your EL choices. I can't remember off hand, but can you teleport your Termies? You could give either the bikers or the Scouts a teleport homer to get them where you want them. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother with ELs. I'd just focus on TR and FA options.

Troops I would suggest bike, bikes, and more bikes. That's what WS are about anyway.

FA should be for Assault Squads and maybe Speeders if you feel so inclined. Maybe Scout bikers, too...

Heavy. How many points are you planning to play with this force?! Sounds like an awful lot of armour for a speed/bike force to me. Of the options you put forward, I liked the Las/Plas squad in Razorback the best. Anything expensive with AVs is Victory points in a can. Besides, if you have Meltaguns in your bike squads and Assault Cannons on your Speeders, you don't really need Lascannons at all.

Don't forget that White Scars never use Dreadnoughts at all. You didn't mention them, but good to point out.

IMO, the WS are all about speed and the precise application of force at the right time and place. The mobility of the army is its strength, as it alows you to get your units where you want them, when you want them there. In 40k mobility is god. All the firepower in the world is no good if its on the other side of the board with no LOS.

Greatoliver
30-12-2006, 11:35
Go with 2 or 3 points for now.

Sounds reasonable, I'll also ask my opponent for his/her ideas.


- If they're there for tank/heavy infantry busting, go all out. Two meltas, attack bike with multi-melta and a vet with a combi-melta.
- If they're gonna get stuck in fast, don't give them any special weapons as they wont ever shoot much and the squad is more or less just wounds for the sgt.
- I can't risk losing an expensive biker to an overheat so I eschew plasma but whatever floats your boat. If you're gonna go down that road I still reccomend you specialize for a small, cheap anti-MEq unit of 5. Two plasmas and a combi plasma, no attack bike.

The thing is that I'm not sure I want to specialize. It does souns stupid, but it would be nice to have all rounder squads that are still dastards in combat. The thing about the WS is that they have Counter Charge and H & T meaning that if they get charged, they'll just pop out at the end and blast you.

Combi-Melta? Nah - gets rid of valuable Sergeant attacks and it's a one shot weapon...Points are better spent elsewhere, IMO. Also, as the poster below said, bikes are too expensive to be wounds for the serge. Finally, I don't think the plasma squad would be good...It might be gone in a turn...

This is something I'll have to think about a lot. Cheers for the input.


White scars scout bikes with melta bombs are amazing. I'm amazed you've written them off. They can appear wherever they're needed and destroy a big thorn-in-your-side tank then run amok behind enemy lines tying up units and maybe even killing stuff. That's pretty sweet for 81 points.

Scout Bikers it is then! But what to replace..?


Personally, I don't really think...
of what combat round it is.

Really, when you think about it, what does the +1I give you? It does allow you to strike before Marines (which is good) and at the same time as basic Eldar (useful). Other than that, pretty much everything else is either faster or slower anyway. Personally, I think it has limited application, but thats just me. OTOH, I do like the model for the Power Lance...

That's it! That's one of the main reason I love it - it looks so cool! Plus, it's a WS-only weapon so I feel inclined to have one. That is true though about everything else...With such expensive models, you can't wait to fight last with a PF. A Nemisis Force Weapons would be best, but I can't use those. :(


For HQs, I always find it hard to go past the Chaplain. He comes with an Inv. Save, and a PW and LoH. Great value, IMO.

Coupling this with what you said above, I could give him a BP and he'd be fine. He does seem like a good choise now.


Due to the restrictions regarding transports, you are a bit limited with your EL choices. I can't remember off hand, but can you teleport your Termies? You could give either the bikers or the Scouts a teleport homer to get them where you want them. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother with ELs. I'd just focus on TR and FA options.

If you could have Teleported, I would have considered. But you can't so meh.

The thing about Veterans is that they're a great combat squad. With so many Armour-ignoring weapons and Furious Charge, I find them difficult to ignore. Plus, it does means more bikes! (See below)


Troops I would suggest bike, bikes, and more bikes. That's what WS are about anyway.

...And Scouts and perhaps a Tactical Squad in a Razorback...:D

IMO, that's not what they are about. That's one of the reasons they were nerfed so much is that they took away tanks and that was actually quite a big thing in WS. At this rate, I'll have 40 Bikes as my troops (240 quid...), 5 Scouts and 6 Marines in a Razorback...I think that's reasonable.


FA should be for Assault Squads and maybe Speeders if you feel so inclined. Maybe Scout bikers, too...

Scout Bikers is a yes now. The thing about Ass. Squads is that I now see them as cheap assault units. This is good and bad, but they'd be there just as fire-soakers, not as dedicated assault troops as basic Bikes can do that.

Land Speeders? All the way!


Heavy. How many points are you planning to play with this force?! Sounds like an awful lot of armour for a speed/bike force to me. Of the options you put forward, I liked the Las/Plas squad in Razorback the best. Anything expensive with AVs is Victory points in a can. Besides, if you have Meltaguns in your bike squads and Assault Cannons on your Speeders, you don't really need Lascannons at all.

Yup. Well mate, with my basic guy being 33-7 points, this is not going to be small. :D

I see what you mean about the Lascannons. If I did this, I would construct the whole lot and then add it immediatley to save one poor tank at the back being the target for all the AT in my opponents army...

I do fancy both the Razorback and the Whirlwind though, and the WW can fire indirectly so it'll be out of the way. Something to think about.


Don't forget that White Scars never use Dreadnoughts at all. You didn't mention them, but good to point out.

Yep - this is one of the restrictions on WS.


IMO, the WS are all about speed and the precise application of force at the right time and place. The mobility of the army is its strength, as it alows you to get your units where you want them, when you want them there. In 40k mobility is god. All the firepower in the world is no good if its on the other side of the board with no LOS.

Very true. I'll keep your wise words in my head! :p Does sound a lot like MEch Tau, which is a good thing.

Thanks fr your replies, you two!

lord_blackfang
30-12-2006, 12:14
So have you talked to your gaming group about this? I certainly wouldn't be thrilled about playing a home-grown hodge-podge of old and new rules without advance warning.

Using old Index Astartes rules with the new SM Codex was debated at length at the time of the Codex update, and it was generally felt by all that it would be overpowered.

prose.
30-12-2006, 12:17
To an extent the specialization of weaponry isn't such a big deal in a bike squad using old-school Scars rules as their bikes are more tactically flexible (and actually decent in combat). I guess I've just been writing too many trait lists heh

Oh for the good ol' days.

Greatoliver
30-12-2006, 12:40
So have you talked to your gaming group about this? I certainly wouldn't be thrilled about playing a home-grown hodge-podge of old and new rules without advance warning.

Using old Index Astartes rules with the new SM Codex was debated at length at the time of the Codex update, and it was generally felt by all that it would be overpowered.

No, I have not at the moment. Why? Because it's still in the idea phase.

Also, do you really think I'd just turn up and say "Here's my army that follows the rules of old WS and I've had to convert them a bit"? That would be extremely stupid as since this army would not actually legal, I would have to ask in advance.

Oh, and BTW, the only thing that I have imporvised is the points cost for the 2 CCWs, following the rules all the way in other parts - home grown? More like old rules with a tiny tweek.

Finally, this will need playtesting. It does seem very overpowered due to the fact that WS Bikes get all the special rules with no extra points cost. We will just have to see how overpowered it is, and then odify it or scrap it depending on this.

lord_blackfang
30-12-2006, 12:57
Well, with all the extras, a bike would probably be over 40 pts.

Let's see... 32 base. +2 for skilled riders. At least +3 for Countercharge and two weapons (similar effect as True Grit, but better). At least +3 for Hit and Run (probably worth twice that).

Greatoliver
30-12-2006, 13:00
Well, with all the extras, a bike would probably be over 40 pts.

Let's see... 32 base. +2 for skilled riders. At least +3 for Countercharge and two weapons (similar effect as True Grit, but better). At least +3 for Hit and Run (probably worth twice that).

Yeah, they do need a point increase.

What I need to do is to find what the old bikes where like - a.k.a. Research.

lord_blackfang
30-12-2006, 13:08
IIRC they were 35-36 pts base, with a bolt pistol but no frag grenades nor the ability to turbo boost.

Greatoliver
30-12-2006, 13:12
IIRC they were 35-36 pts base, with a bolt pistol but no frag grenades nor the ability to turbo boost.

Okay, but what I don't understand is that the rules for WS indicate no points increase yet there surely must have been one to balance the list, so were the extra rules always on slightly shaky ground, even when they first came out?

I would have thought GW would have playtested the rules at the time and thought that the extra rules' advantges were evened out by the restricted unit choices and the general "nothing is expendable 'cos it's expensive" idea...

Grand Master Raziel
30-12-2006, 14:59
Hi y'all!

Recently I've become increasingly distressed with the Trait BSATW that's meant to replace the whole White Scars rules so I decided I would uncover the old rules and use them. Thanks to the guys who told me where they were, I have now obtained them.

But, I've got a few problems and I need some advice about how to solve them..:

Now, in the rules, you have to take some things for granted. As this was made using the older SM Codex, some things are missing. My first problem is that Bikers always used to have Bolt Pistols, as well and Frag and Bikes. This may not seem a problem at first glance, but one of the WS-only rules is that WS Bikers may take an additional CCW for a point. This means that Bikers are much better in combat as they have an extra attack and it is an important aspect of WS.

But, with no Bolt Pistols, this seems uselss. Now, as BPs are uslesss on Bikes, there are two things I could do to sort out this problem. Firstly, I could just say that they have the Bolt Pistol at no extra cost, thus making it flow nicely. Or, which would be more fair, I could pay two points for two CCWs. You opinions?


Well, if you're working up homegrown rules for them, you could always state that White Scars are adept at using their bikes as weapons in close combat (running over people and things like that), and as such can count the bike as an extra CCW in close combat. That said, you should probably pay at least a couple points per bike for that extra attack. Refer to Codex: Chaos Space Marines for the price of their bikes. They're more expensive than standard loyalist bikes, but have 2 base attacks each.


__________

Now, here's another problem relating to the one above. With 4th Ed. SMs, you can take Attack Bikes in Bike Squads. This is fine and dandy until you get to the CCW rule. It states that all of the members without Special Weapons can take one and I was wondering if this could be passed on to Attack Bikes. My gut instinct says no, but I'd like your opinions.
__________

Go with your gut on this one.


That's the end of the problems but I'd like some advice on the next few things.

WS Bikes are very well priced, as they have all the normal Bike things as well as gaining the Skilled Rider, Counter-Attack and Hit & Run Special Rules. Another thing that WS get to have is the Power Lance. This is a Power Weapon at the cost of a Space Marine that gives you +1I on the charge or counter-charge. Nice bit of kit.

But, I'm having problems deciding over this or the Power Fist. For my HQ's, it's be the PL, though what should I do with my Vet. Serges? Also, with my Veteran Vet. Serges, they'll have Furious Charge and I think that the PL would be better suited - do you think I am correct?

I'd say go with the power fists. Squads w/o power fists can be horribly vulnerable to getting locked in combat and annihilated by something they could not otherwise normally hurt, such as a Dreadnought or a Monstrous Creature. I've had that happen to me, and it ain't fun. If that presents you with a real dilemma, you could always use both a PW and a PF on your sergeants. That makes them pricey, but you'll have the PW for charging furiously with, and the PF for subsequent turns and/or big gribblies. Nowhere in the rules does it state that a biker can't have two CCWs.


__________

With all these benefits, WS do have some restrictions. Firstly, all infantry must be transported, sans Command Squads and Veteran Squads which can be mounted. Choosing is difficult, so once again, your advice is welcomed.

Troops: I thought I'd start with these as they are the main thing of an army. What I was planning to do was to have 10 man squads (allowed) with an Attack Bike weilding an HB, with a Plasma Gun and a Melta-Gun. There would be a Vet. with a PF/PL as well. All would also have 2 CCWs. This would be the basic template for my whole army as I have already decided and found out that the two Special Weapons work together.

But, the problem I have is whether I should have a Multi-Melta or a Heavy Bolter on my Attack Bike. The HB provides a good anti-GEq gun, while the MM would provide Anti-Tank plus Anti-MEq. :rolleyes:

Don't forget that each bike comes with a twin-linked bolter, which is respectable anti-GEQ firepower. You seem more likely to need the extra anti-tank firepower. That said, don't ignore flamers. High mobility flamers are really effective. I'd pop a flamer into the squad instead of the plasma gun.


BTW, I might use a Tactical Squad and also I've got some Scouts with Snipers to use, which I will.

The last thing is about grenades. Either I could have a Melta-Bomb on the Vet. or I could give Kraks to all the squad. Melta's to the whole squad is too much - Opinions?

If you give the sergeant a PF, he won't need meltabombs. Give kraks to the squad.



Elites: Basically large Veteran squads with a Power Weapon and Lightning Claws, with a Vet. with a PL, at full squad size. Then follows template. Bear in mind that I'm not sure about thw PL and a PF might be better on the Vet. Anything wrong?

Just to say, no Termies for me as they need to be transported in a LR, and i don't particularily want them anyway.

Hmm...I'm understanding you to mean that you're going to have these guys use the weapon options of a Veteran Squad, but also be all mounted on bikes. That might be a bit much for opponents to swallow. You might be better off using a standard Vet squad, and mounting them in a transport. For that, you might consider using a Land Raider, if for no other purpose than to use it as a fire-magnet.


Fast Attack: This is pretty much sorted. Assault Squadrons are out as normal Bike can tak up their role, and they are pansies. Scout Bikers are out as even though they can always start in Reserves and come on from any edge - it's not good enough IMO. So, it's Landspeeders. I plan to have three squads, one with pure Landspeeder of the Tornado variety, with Ass. Cannons; one with two Ass. Cannons and a Typhoon; and the last will have three with MMs and HFs. Yum! Too cheesy? :cheese:

Well, you're talking about a lot of points bound up into fairly easy-to-destroy platforms. I don't find Assault Cannons to be particularly cheesy, but a lot of people do. Don't bother with the Typhoon. Those things are worthless. Instead, figure on a 50/50 mix of assault cannon Tornados to MM/HF Tornados. Why, you ask? Because the Tornado box set comes with both chin-mounted weapons. So, if you get a standard Land Speeder box for every Tornado you buy, you can make two Tornados, one of each variety.

A couple other Speeder-assembling hints: if you're getting any SM tanks, try to refrain from using the gunners for the pintle mounts. You can use their arms to make second gunners for your speeders. The speeder kit comes with both a heavy bolter and a multi melta, but only parts for one gunner. With the arms from the tank pintle gunners and an extra Tac Marine torso, head, and shoulder pads, you can make a second gunner and be able to swap out your speeder gunners as you see fit. Don't worry about gluing them in. Gravity (and the clip on the gun holding it to the rail) hold them in well enough.

Also, I suggest attaching the Tornado chin-mounted weapons with magnets instead of glue. You may find yourself wanting to swap out the weapons, or even use them as standard Speeders. Also, it lets you remove them during game if your speeders suffer a Weapon Destroyed result.

One last thing: I'd like to call your attention to a Forge World product: the Land Speeder Tempest. Highly appropriate for a White Scars army. Here's a link:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/SPACE_MARINE_AIRCRAFT.html

Scroll to the bottom to see the model.


HQ: With HQs, all are viable choices. Firstly, I think Command Squads are a must, as it allows the IC to gain from the Veteran Skills as well. These are also handy as they make a great cross between shooty and CCy, with Champions and two Special Weapons. I think with the Vet. Serge should have a PF though I'm not sure. I'd have a full command (10 models) minus the extra IC and the Standard Bearer. Onto the IC's.

Captain - He's good as he's nothing special. CCW and a PL should fair him well and still make him horrible in combat.

Give him an invulnerable save. A Storm Shield is nice and cheap, but also quite effective.

Command Squad-wise, I'm again taking you to mean that you intend to use a bike-mounted Command Squad, with all the options available to the current SM Command Squad. Again, that might be a bit hard for opponents to swallow, although I suppose their's little harm in giving it a try. If your opponents vehemently disapprove, the champion can always be a biker sergeant, and the two assault weapons are pretty standard kit for Bike Squadrons.


Chaplain - The problem with this is that he's already got a PW. This puts me off as giving him a PL would negate the use of this. Apart from that, he'd be great as he boosts the whole Command Squad with his Liaties of Hate rule.

Look at it this way: give him a bike, and he's battle-ready. The Power Lance can be a Commander-only item.


Libraian - The utter dastard of SM. Give him Veil of Time, a Familiar and a PL, you can get 6 St5 I8 Power Weapon attack on the charge, re-rolling everything! But, it's very expensive. Plus, the Force Weapon goes to waste...

So, don't give him the Power Lance. IMO, the Librarian's best power is his ability to use his force weapon to pop off multi-wound models with one hit. It seems like a shame to waste that ability.


(Side note: I also plan to put Combat Shields on everything I can - they're great!)

What do you think?

Heavy Support/Infantry: This is where WS is great - you get all the tanks! What I plan to do, is to have a mass of Bike rolling forwards with a small amount of tanks at the rear, blasting away. I plant to use two Annihalators with HB sponsons and a Whirlwind with Castellan missiles, as it sounds good at blocking off enemies. Might change a Pred to a Destructor.

Well, I think the tanks should roll in front, not in back. Use the pair of Annihilators, but figure on having them move forward 12" in your first turn present a rolling wall your bikes can advance behind. Then, when the bikes are in position to spring out and do something terrible to someone, have them slow down and use their guns. For a third tank, use a Vindicator instead of a Whirlwind. That way, you can add it to the rolling wall. Give it Power of the Machine Spirit so it can fire even if Shaken or Stunned. Also, try and position it so your opponent can't get side shots on it (such as by placing it between the two Preds).

Just a suggestion: It's sounding like you'll have enough tanks to make a Techmarine worth your while. Invest in one of those, with a retinue of Tech Servitors. They can ride in a Razorback - a Techie and retinue are the only squad that I'd by a Razorback for.


I plan to also put a couple of Tactical Squads into Razorbacks and give them a Lascannon or a Missile Launcher for support, with HB's on the 'Back. It'll hopefully work well. Too much?
__________

I'm not generally in favor of Razorback fire-support squads, as 'backs are too easy to pop. That Techie I mentioned would give you an excuse to put one 'back on the table. Use bigger squads to support your bikes, and mount them in Rhinos.


Whew...That's me tired...Thanks for all the replies and I get and thanks for reading. I'm looking forward to play with this modified list as it look great fun. Hopefully my opponents don't refues to play! :p

Cheers,

Well, I agree with you that White Scars deserve better than they got in Codex: Space Marines. That said, it would probably be a good idea for you to figure on using Be Swift As The Wind (I'm not sure about TYBB, though) and standard Codex: SM rules for them as a backup plan. That way, if opponents say no to the home-grown rules, you can trot out a list that they can't reasonably object to.

Greatoliver
30-12-2006, 15:53
They're more expensive than standard loyalist bikes, but have 2 base attacks each.

I'll look into that.


I'd say go with the power fists.

Yep - PLs are very cool but I now think that they're not worth it comapred to the humble PF.


I'd pop a flamer into the squad instead of the plasma gun.

Interesting notion. I've never like flamers that much and I think Plasma is one of the best aspects the Imperium...I'll consider.


If you give the sergeant a PF, he won't need meltabombs. Give kraks to the squad.

Good idea.


Hmm...I'm understanding you to mean that you're going to have these guys use the weapon options of a Veteran Squad, but also be all mounted on bikes. That might be a bit much for opponents to swallow.

Command Squad-wise, I'm again taking you to mean that you intend to use a bike-mounted Command Squad, with all the options available to the current SM Command Squad. Again, that might be a bit hard for opponents to swallow, although I suppose their's little harm in giving it a try.

I think you might of misunderstood - I'm using rules from the Index Astartes/WD #257 which are essentially "Chapter Approved" rules, meaning that they aren't home grown, but 3rd Ed. into 4th Ed. It specifically states that you can mount both of these units on bikes for x points, so even if it is very expensive, it's very good.


Well, you're talking about a lot of points bound up into fairly easy-to-destroy platforms. I don't find Assault Cannons to be particularly cheesy, but a lot of people do. Don't bother with the Typhoon. Those things are worthless. Instead, figure on a 50/50 mix of assault cannon Tornados to MM/HF Tornados. Why, you ask? Because the Tornado box set comes with both chin-mounted weapons. So, if you get a standard Land Speeder box for every Tornado you buy, you can make two Tornados, one of each variety...

...Scroll to the bottom to see the model.

Thanks for all the advice you gave - I'll save it and revert to it when this army is finally started to be built. I've also always like the Typhoon, but seeing as it's not that good, I'll drop it. Oh, and bear in mind that one squad will be replaced with some Scout Bikers.


Give him an invulnerable save. A Storm Shield is nice and cheap, but also quite effective.

I personally like Combat Shields as they allow you to have the +1 Attack.


Look at it this way: give him a bike, and he's battle-ready. The Power Lance can be a Commander-only item.

Yep, I'll think he'll be my first HQ.


So, don't give him the Power Lance. IMO, the Librarian's best power is his ability to use his force weapon to pop off multi-wound models with one hit. It seems like a shame to waste that ability.

Very true. I'll consider.


Well, I think the tanks should roll in front, not in back. Use the pair of Annihilators, but figure on having them move forward 12" in your first turn present a rolling wall your bikes can advance behind. Then, when the bikes are in position to spring out and do something terrible to someone, have them slow down and use their guns. For a third tank, use a Vindicator instead of a Whirlwind....

Cheerse for advice. One thing - Vindicators aren't allowed in WS armies as there are unit restrictions. Shame, as it would have been good. Advice = great.


Just a suggestion: It's sounding like you'll have enough tanks to make a Techmarine worth your while.

Can't take one unluckily.


I'm not generally in favor of Razorback fire-support squads, as 'backs are too easy to pop. That Techie I mentioned would give you an excuse to put one 'back on the table. Use bigger squads to support your bikes, and mount them in Rhinos.

The thing was that I was only taking Mech Infantry so I could have Razorbacks as I like them a lot. I dislike Rhinos so I might pass on that part.

Thanks for your input and I'll ponder over what you said. (p.s: Sorry if disapointed with short reply - short for time atm)

Greatoliver
01-01-2007, 01:05
Are there any more opinions on this?

If a few more people could construct replies, my ceaseless mind may lay still...

Cheers for help in future and past,

guillimansknight
01-01-2007, 02:14
I think it's great that you're doing this. I would love to play against your old-school rules scars -with my traited Scars no less. Now that would be a cool battle (You'd win). Scars have lost so much flavour with the new rules.




ahhhh white scars, the emperors arrow

fast, deadly and great to play with or against

i have never played WS but when i found out they got traited i felt like crying


great list, good luck and hopfully you'll be allowed in a tournie