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vorac
30-12-2006, 05:04
Well i played 2 games today using the steam tank in 2k games against a HE and a WE, and these new rules blow. In game 1 vs the HE i ran through some silverhelms and swordmasters but got hit by a boltthrower that did 3 wounds and i was really lucky on saves because he wounded it a lot. Result steamtank survived but barely.

Game 2 vs. WE this is a forestspirit army it is WE, 1st turn i go for 5 SP roll a 6 and do nothing, next turn i use 4 points because 5 is now too dangerous, and move forward. Next get charged by dryads who do nothing, next turn i grind and kill 5 but they stay. His turn he charges the treeman in and well from there it's game over for Steamtank, in conclustion this was all due to an unlucky roll of 6 on first turn, now my complaint is that this is rediculous to think that the most powerful warmachine at the empires disposal is hamstrung by 1 ******* wound, and on top of that you stall when you malfunction, this is yet another of Gw's mistakes just like the Helblaster which i also took but will be retiring since now it kills nothing before blowing up as to when it blew up and killed stuff good. :( very sad that all the rare choices suck bad, any one want some used models.

Snotteef
30-12-2006, 05:37
I don't think you'll be getting a whole lot of sympathy. The steam tank was too good before.

vcassano
30-12-2006, 08:42
I think the main thing about it now is it is as fragile as it should be. Therefore you have got to be careful with it and thus think more about it. I'd give it a fair run against many different armies before you get rid of it as you might work out a great new tactic for it and start being really successful.

Unclejo
30-12-2006, 11:38
this is yet another of Gw's mistakes just like the Helblaster which i also took but will be retiring since now it kills nothing before blowing up as to when it blew up and killed stuff good

Surely its a good thing that these "fire-and-forget" weapons are now being brought into line? They were stupidly good and needed toning down IMHO.

As for the Steam Tank, it sounds like its back to what it used to be: a novelty addition to the list that could be brought out every once in a while for some enjoyable gaming. If your entire plan hinges on this "wonder-weapon" yes, your in trouble, but then good generals dont use noveltys as hinges:p

Against the High Elves, what was your issue? Seems like your Tank soaked up a lot of elf shooting and survived. Remind me why this is a bad thing?

Against the Wood Elves...you put your Steam Tank near a Treeman? What did you expect? When a high strength gribbly goes for a warmachine, it invariably dies.

zak
30-12-2006, 12:01
Just because you had a bad experience or two with does not mean that it's crap. I use it often and most in a static manner. If you allow it to get charged by a treeman, then your obviously doing something wrong.

lord_blackfang
30-12-2006, 13:45
So the two most broken Empire units no longer automatically obliterate everything that comes into range? What is the world coming to?

Voltaire
30-12-2006, 13:51
Imagine that, the Steam Tank has become balanced. What a terrible thing indeed!

Stouty
30-12-2006, 14:30
In the first game you just completely breezed over the fact that you ran through some silver helms and swordmasters. My dear gods man, that could quite easily be well over 300pts (15 man unit of swordsmasters and 5 silver helms would be around 361pts).

And then it went on to save your infantry from the evils of the bolt throwers for a turn or so.

And it kept it's points.

It's completely nerfed obviously.

greenskin
30-12-2006, 15:09
Well i played 2 games today using the steam tank in 2k games against a HE and a WE, and these new rules blow. In game 1 vs the HE i ran through some silverhelms and swordmasters but got hit by a boltthrower that did 3 wounds and i was really lucky on saves because he wounded it a lot. Result steamtank survived but barely.
I'm unfamiliar with the new rules. Does the Steam Tank have a Ward Save? Typically a Bolt Thrower doesn't allow saves. Even if it did, you would roll a single save first and then do D3 wounds if you failed.

vorac
30-12-2006, 17:30
I did breeze through the swordmasters but that was because i was very lucky on armour saves, because i think i rolled at least 10, and i didn't go near the treeman he creeped up tp the tank with multiple tree singing, i wouldn't of had a problem with some minor changes to the really nasty empire stuff but this is too much, the helblaster should not have any to hit modifiers so everything would be at 4+ and the steamtank should not be slowed down by 1 ******* wound, i mean if you took a dragon and he lost a wound which in turn made him lose say 3 inchs on his flight move, - 1 ws and a -1 A you would wonder if it was really worth it, i was all for toning down these things but this was too much, now we have mediocre infantry,shooting,magic and characters, this army has become so boring and really straying away from fantasy.

Stouty
30-12-2006, 17:39
now we have mediocre infantry,shooting,magic and characters, this army has become so boring and really straying away from fantasy.

Woah woah woah....

Your infantry has gotten better; there is some debate on the old flaggies but other than it's exactly the same but for a point cheaper.

Shooting; okay so the hellblaster is no longer able to blat skirmishers but it's cheaper and scarier versus the old block units.

Magic; slight pts increase (something like 5 of on the battle wizard) but you save points elsewhere by the bucket load (25pts per unit of infantry) so that should be no problems.

I think you've come down with a case of hyperbole.

Frecus
30-12-2006, 18:29
As soon as I read 'treeman' I was almost laughing. Previously, even a treeman had to watch out for the big steamroller. Now, they're both monsters of more or less equal value. Mind, if you had the charge, then the tree would probably have had a big problem (and a big hole in its side).

Getting in the charge arc & range of any single unit of 250+ pts is not healthy.

Frecus
The glade wanderer
Madwarrior

vcassano
30-12-2006, 18:42
I did breeze through the swordmasters but that was because i was very lucky on armour saves, because i think i rolled at least 10, and i didn't go near the treeman he creeped up tp the tank with multiple tree singing, i wouldn't of had a problem with some minor changes to the really nasty empire stuff but this is too much, the helblaster should not have any to hit modifiers so everything would be at 4+ and the steamtank should not be slowed down by 1 ******* wound, i mean if you took a dragon and he lost a wound which in turn made him lose say 3 inchs on his flight move, - 1 ws and a -1 A you would wonder if it was really worth it, i was all for toning down these things but this was too much, now we have mediocre infantry,shooting,magic and characters, this army has become so boring and really straying away from fantasy.

You're right about the straying away from Fantasy, although surely a *******' tank fits into that category too!

But do you know what's really boring? Gunlines: Rows upon rows of handgunners and artillery. Horrifically boring for both players, particularly its opposition.

Do you know what else is boring? Crutches. The Steam Tank and Helblaster's were crutches and clearly you utilised that. Now that they are sensibly powerful (I DEFINITELY wouldn't complain if I had units of their power level in my Druchii!) they are no longer crutches and so require a little more thought and care in their use and thus you don't like them...

Derfel1
30-12-2006, 18:47
Woah woah woah....

Your infantry has gotten better; there is some debate on the old flaggies but other than it's exactly the same but for a point cheaper.
No it's not better we have lost the Griffon banner (having an AST with the Griffon banner is not a option Im to fancy about) and becoming one point cheaper is not that much a deal. 25 Swordsman go are broken as fast as 20! So the Infantry has in fact become weaker.


Shooting; okay so the hellblaster is no longer able to blat skirmishers but it's cheaper and scarier versus the old block units.
Again no, its not scarier against block units, but it is against Monsters like Treeman.


Magic; slight pts increase (something like 5 of on the battle wizard) but you save points elsewhere by the bucket load (25pts per unit of infantry) so that should be no problems.

That's right but still I can't understand why a Imperial Wizard should cost 5 points more?

The Steamtank is able of doing a lot of damage now gut it is also very fragile, time will show if the changes work.

Doomclaw
30-12-2006, 18:57
the griffon banner was quite a bit too powerful, now it can only be given to a bsb it's still good, but not too good like it used to be, a unit with +6 cr is just too much, it was virtually impossible to beat them in frontal combat and the flanks would usually be protected quite well.

25 swordsmen are better than 20, you keep your ranks longer and have some more chance of getting outnumbering. And even if you want to keep fielding 20-strong blocks, you save points which can in fact be used elsewhere.

The imperial wizard has the greatest choise of lores, otherwise he is just like his foreign colleagues. He still isn't very expensive compared to elven wizards and such. And as has been said before, the cheaper infantry will easily give the points to pay the slight bit extra.

The hellblaster might have lost some of its power now it has to hit modifiers and such, but it still is easily capable of doing horrible damage to a unit.

vcassano
30-12-2006, 19:14
If someone used a 40-50 strong unit of Greatswords with an Elector Count with some kind of LD-based item and perhaps a BSB with the Griffon Banner you would have a nearly unstoppable unit without having to resort to some stupid gunline or mech-unit.

Axel
30-12-2006, 19:59
> So the Infantry has in fact become weaker.
The infantry stats have not changed, just the cost have been reduced. Complaining that they have become weaker is just whining (sorry, but remain serious).

On the other matters, I have to agree. The Griffon Banner now lies in the hands of a hero as the main banner, who rarely will live to make use of it against a competent enemy. It was overused before, though.

The Steamtank now needs just one wound to get seriously reduced in efficiency. While having 10 wounds, taking two will make him next to useless - at least for its current price of 300 pts. Once their weakness becomes known they will become a rare sight on the battlefield, and practially a 300 pts gift to any skilled opponent. I assume that the sale-rates of Steamtanks will drop considerably.

The Hellblaster also has been reduced seriously in efficiency, though in this case it also became cheaper and its long range efficiency against high-cost units and monsters is actually increased. I will continue to field them, though they now need protection from skirmishers. No problem here.

Overall the Empire - an army depending often on guns and combat resolution against the hordes or high morale/toughness armies out there - has seen some of its favourite toys taken away. It kept others, and got some additional, like outriders or the greatswords.

zak
30-12-2006, 20:04
The slower movement is not much of a hindrance as the steamtank doesn't rely on movement, unlike the dragon that needs to get in combat. I really think that you need to use the models more before writing them off. Both are still usable in a VERY interesting army.

Derfel1
30-12-2006, 20:06
the griffon banner was quite a bit too powerful, now it can only be given to a bsb it's still good, but not too good like it used to be, a unit with +6 cr is just too much, it was virtually impossible to beat them in frontal combat and the flanks would usually be protected quite well.
But you cant pursue the beaten opponent that's a huge weakness


25 swordsmen are better than 20, you keep your ranks longer and have some more chance of getting outnumbering. And even if you want to keep fielding 20-strong blocks, you save points which can in fact be used elsewhere.
Imagine you are fighting against 5 chosen chaos knights, you are likely to loose the fight by 2 and you miss the breaktest rolling a 6. Where is the advantage for having 25 instead of 20 men?


The hellblaster might have lost some of its power now it has to hit modifiers and such, but it still is easily capable of doing horrible damage to a unit.
So run some numbers and prove it against an average infantry unit. And check how huge the damage is. compare it to other missile units.


If someone used a 40-50 strong unit of Greatswords with an Elector Count with some kind of LD-based item and perhaps a BSB with the Griffon Banner you would have a nearly unstoppable unit without having to resort to some stupid gunline or mech-unit.

No you will have a unit no one will attack unless he is in a good position and movement 4 means that you wont pick the fights.
Or what is also possible the attacker takes a small hard hitting unit or character, takes out your battle standard bearer and leaves you open for the next attack.

@Axel
No it is no whining, I did not mean that a point reducement makes the Infantry weaker, but taking away every (the only) useful banner at 50 points or lower weakens the Infantry. The BSB is no option there because you can directly attack him. And you allways know where the Griffon Standard might be, thus ignoring the unit wich filds it.

TheWarSmith
30-12-2006, 20:07
isn't the hellblaster also Strength 5 at 24", instead of being S4 at long range?

The stank shouldn't be some invincible machine that would be a no brainer to take. I applaud the severe toning down, but still balanced, stank.

Unclejo
30-12-2006, 20:15
Right, so let me get this straight: your infantry hasn't changed in stats. They are cheaper. You can still get a Griffon Banner.

How the hell is this weaker? Seriously, how are you coming to your conclusion? Because to me, reading this thread, it seems you guys are moaning for absolutely no reason.

Derfel1
30-12-2006, 20:16
Yupp the Stank now has an obvious weakness but he is also a much better heavy hitter then before. the last Steam tank was also easy to take out if you had the proper tools like Chaos Knights, the where capable to destroy it in 2 rounds(or at least pull it's teeth)
I think the Steamtank is still worth to be taken!

@Unclejo
read the the answer I gave to Axel again so you might understand my point.

Griefbringer
30-12-2006, 20:17
and becoming one point cheaper is not that much a deal

In an army with a decent amount of infantry, price reduction of 1 point per model and 5 points per command group is a significant amount. Imagine a force with three 25-strong blocks of infantry (with full command groups) with a 10-strong detachment for each one of them. This whole lot will now be 120 point cheaper than previously!

For example, if you think that the Helblaster got toned down, you can use those 120 extra points to take another one of them - their combined firepower should be scary enough!

Derfel1
30-12-2006, 20:27
So maybe I missed the where you showed us that the Infantry has become better you only proved us that infantry is cheaper now.
You could also leave one unit at home taking a second hellblasters for the points.;-)

vcassano
30-12-2006, 20:40
One piece of infantry that has improved: Flagellants. Cheaper and now mroe common. Not that I like this: the less unbreakable armies and units the better.

To be honest most people underrate the basic infantry unit. In my 2000 point Chaos army I use a beefed up Lord but still get 96 models into the army. How? 2x24 marauders. Cheap and average infantry but still effective.

As I said earlier if an Empire general took the massive greatsword regiment plus leadership boosters for it and then complemented it with a nice smattering of big swordsmen units, big tarpits of flagellants and a bsb to hold the line you have a very competent force. With these units to hold the enemy down you can use small units of outriders and even knights to flank and rear charge the opponent and beat supposedly better units in combat.


So maybe I missed the where you showed us that the Infantry has become better you only proved us that infantry is cheaper now.
You could also leave one unit at home taking a second hellblasters for the points.;-)

Infantry has become better because you can take MORE! More people=more units=more targets for the enemy so you can swarm the opponents.

Griefbringer
30-12-2006, 20:54
No it is no whining, I did not mean that a point reducement makes the Infantry weaker, but taking away every (the only) useful banner at 50 points or lower weakens the Infantry.

I think you are ignoring War Banner here - surely quite useful item for mere 25 points. ;)

Festus
30-12-2006, 20:56
Hi

vorac and Derfel1-
Some cheese to your whine? :cheese:

Empire certainly got better, and cheaper, and still more balanced. What more do you want? :rolleyes:

bluesky322
30-12-2006, 20:58
i should build the ultimate gun line 2 hellblasters 2 mortors 2 cannons all core are handgunners then the heros are either wizards or engineers

then i will build the ultimate infintry list with decent fighting heros swordmen greatswords flagilents and then i could just choose which force to use depending on how well i like the persons attitude twords gunlines if he hates them ill use them :D :evilgrin:

vcassano
30-12-2006, 21:07
The army I am really dreading is the horrific gun-line meets church: lots of artillery and gunners plus lots of magic and... Flagellents. It is going to be the new 'build' for Empire, I am sure. The worst thing about it is that the users will proclaim their list is not unfair because it is fluffy.

Axel
30-12-2006, 21:08
Yep, the hellblaster is now S5 at 24", and not half but full shots. So at BS3 without to-hit modificators you get now 66% of the former hits but with increases strength. At long range it is now better against targets with high toughness and armour, depending on the exact values. When hit modifications come in, like shooting on scouts, efficiency decreases. At short range the efficiency considerably drops to around 50% of its previous performance. The Hellblasters previous task was to scare scouts away and threaten big units - these two roles are now history, instead it becomes a SMU and Monster hunter.

Regarding the "toning down" of Steamtanks. No problem here, but that should come with a point decrease. 300 pts for something that any decent bolt thrower, cannon or monster killer can take out is too much to consider seriously. Even a handgunner who hits has a 1:18 chance to cause a wound, which will render the Steamtank useless. Remember that the number of Steampoints used + 1d6 must be equal or under the wounds, so even at full wounds its dangerous to use 5 pts. Once you have a wound you can only safely use 3 (turn and fire), two wounds allow for minimal movement and three make him virtually useless.
In the 5th edition the Steamtank was more effective and cost only 200 pts. They should have reused these rules, especially regarding the usage of Steampoints - only a six would cause a malfunction, but that could go horribly wrong once the Steamtank was damaged.

The Steamtank as is is not balanced at 300, and will go the way of the Sisters Repentia of the Witchhunter codex. Any Empire general that now spends 300 pts for a Steamtank deserves all he gets, and I am looking forward to the first Imperial general that uses one against me. Be assured that I will always field two monster killers (read: Hellblasters) rather then wasting my points on a Steamtank.

gORCUS
30-12-2006, 22:10
Lets be glad Derfel1 doesn't play orcs and goblins, then he'd be whining about the Orcs getting cheaper and the goblins getting more expensive! Cheaper means more points for more stuff, more stuff is better, therefore cheaper is better.

vorac
30-12-2006, 23:23
This isn't whining this is common sense, i would love to find a player that would be willing to take a 300 pt. sink that can be rendered useless after taking 4 out of 10 wounds, i mean really what the hell are those other 6 wounds for since you won't be able to move or shoot after 4.

Unclejo
30-12-2006, 23:43
This isn't whining this is common sense, i would love to find a player that would be willing to take a 300 pt. sink that can be rendered useless after taking 4 out of 10 wounds, i mean really what the hell are those other 6 wounds for since you won't be able to move or shoot after 4.


At a guess, not giving your opponent 300vp's?

Derfel1
30-12-2006, 23:51
This isn't whining this is common sense, i would love to find a player that would be willing to take a 300 pt. sink that can be rendered useless after taking 4 out of 10 wounds, i mean really what the hell are those other 6 wounds for since you won't be able to move or shoot after 4.

You are right!
By the way it is interesting that it is not possible to have a decent discussion here in the Warseer Forum. If you say something the majority of the users don't like you are an instantly marked as a whiner. I always proved my points all you other guys do is calling me a whiner. So I'm curious how low will you go?

@ No I didn`t ignore the Warbanner but it doesn't justify a Imperial General which you have to take in order to field a magic banner with your state troops.
The Archlektor is the superior choice here because the General gives not that much of a benefit anymore. Whats your opinion there?

@gORCUS
So you say a army made up of nothing but Gnoblars is unbeatable because you can field the most units of all?
Of course you are right with your opinion that having more units gives you more options.
But I would say that the majority of players will use the extra points on special or rare units maybe for knights, not for more sate troops, so I fail to see the point in taking more swordsmen, spear men than before If I can have something else instead. So you see it might improve the Army as a whole but not the Infantry itself

Unclejo
31-12-2006, 00:08
You are right!
By the way it is interesting that it is not possible to have a decent discussion here in the Warseer Forum. If you say something the majority of the users don't like you are an instantly marked as a whiner. I always proved my points all you other guys do is calling me a whiner. So I'm curious how low will you go?

In my brief time here I'd disagree, Warseer is a mighty fine place to discuss those little metal chaps we all love. But when your discussion is along the lines of "The Steam Tank sucks! In my last game it ran over two expensive units, soaked up four turns of War Machine fire and didn't die! Damn you GW, damn you!!!!!!!!" people aren't going to be very sympathetic;)

Derfel1
31-12-2006, 00:28
In my brief time here I'd disagree, Warseer is a mighty fine place to discuss those little metal chaps we all love. But when your discussion is along the lines of "The Steam Tank sucks! In my last game it ran over two expensive units, soaked up four turns of War Machine fire and didn't die! Damn you GW, damn you!!!!!!!!" people aren't going to be very sympathetic;)

As I said before I think the Stank is still worth to be taken, but vorac is right when he says that the Stank only has 10 wounds on paper not on the playing field. Shure the Stank will only die after taking 10 wounds but he will have a hard time to defend himself after receiving 3.

Well I'm happy for you that you had other experiences, but in my short time on this board i got insulted as whiner as lunatic ... and so one only for proving my point of few. The ones I mean never proved their point (in fact i doubt they ever got one.)
But I might have been a bit harsh as I can see there do exist people who are able to talk in a friendly manner

Chicago Slim
31-12-2006, 01:18
Since we're now talking about the tone of the discussion here, rather than the content, I'm happy to chime in (honestly, my mind is already made up on the steam tank: I think it has uses, and it has weaknesses; I expect to see my friends who have them field it sometimes, and not other times, just like I have seen them do since 5th ed).

Derfel, I think if you go back to Vorac's original post, you'll see that it was, well, not much of an invitation to have a reasonable discussion. He could have told the stories of his two experiences with the new steam tank, and said, "I'm concerned that it doesn't seem as tough as it used to be. What do you folks think?" That would have invited the next six posters (especially Stouty, who had an excellent comment to add) to give constructive commentary (like, "gosh, it sounds like it did quite decent work against those High Elves, dinnit?")

Instead, Vorac made it pretty clear that he wasn't interested in hearing other opinions than his own, described the unit as a "paperweight" and "another GW mistake". I ask you, then, what was the purpose of his original post? To open a discussion, or to whine?

mightygnoblar
31-12-2006, 01:26
Although i see where your coming from with the steam tank, taking even a single wound takes away its effectiveness, which i admit it does however compare that to a substanial block of infantry (which can cost around 300pts), are they still as effective when they have begun to lose wounds? no, they suddenly hold less ranks have lower chance of outnumber and thus generate less static combat res meaning they are more likely to lose by a greater margin and die, same is true for the tank really the more wounds it takes the more likely it is to injure itself lowering its effectiveness just like any other unit
however i cannot see your logic as regards to the point reduction on infantry any kind of point reduction without loss of stats is a plus, as it leaves you more points to spend on the rest of the army

Baindread
31-12-2006, 01:30
I just wonder why they removed the ability for greatswords to take magic banners :confused:

And why allowing only a bsb to use the Griffon standard? I would have understood the change if they removed the inability to pursue. :eyebrows:

And pistoliers! Either bring back fusillade or drop them to 14-15 pts.


The steam tank is great. I can finally use it and not feel guilty. Use it as a support unit. Put it next to some inner circle knights with a WP and watch anything in the game tremble :D

NakedFisherman
31-12-2006, 01:32
And pistoliers! Either bring back fusillade or drop them to 14-15 pts.

The rules for Fast Cavalry changed, making Pistoliers extremely deadly.

der_lex
31-12-2006, 01:32
I'm wondering where the idea that great swords can no longer take magic banners comes from...

Great Swords count as state troops. When you have an Empire general or Karl Franz as your general, one unit of state troops can take a magic banner.

Do the math :D

Chicago Slim
31-12-2006, 01:32
Imagine you are fighting against 5 chosen chaos knights, you are likely to loose the fight by 2 and you miss the breaktest rolling a 6. Where is the advantage for having 25 instead of 20 men?

You're right-- assuming all other things are equal, if two units fight a straight-up engagement, the most expensive one should probably be expected to win. A unit of 25 Swordsmen with full command cost, what, 175 points? Five chosen knights of chaos (unmarked) is 275-- about 50% more. Losing by just two sounds like a pretty good job, at that.

Now, give those swordsmen 100 points of detachments, and it gets pretty dicey as to who we expect to come out on top...


Please do note that I actually don't advocate doing too much of this "point vs point" comparison: some units have good reasons for why they should beat specific units that are more expensive, or lose to certain cheap units-- after all, if everyone relied on straightforward "go get em!" tactics for every fight, it would be a very tactically uninteresting game... But, it's still a useful rhetorical tool at times like these...


Of course, if we're consider 20 vs 25 swordsmen, then we need think no farther than the second round of combat, against something like goblins: the unit of 20 is likely to already be down by numbers, and is likely to lose their rank bonus in the second round (or from magic or shooting: it only takes 1 wound for a unit of 20 to lose a point of CR!)

gORCUS
31-12-2006, 04:44
I apologize for accusing you of being a whiner, Derfel1 , but the way you argue your point invites unsympathetic criticism.
So maybe I missed the where you showed us that the Infantry has become better you only proved us that infantry is cheaper now.
You're arguing about the wording and not the spirit of the matter, which IMO is just an attempt to **** people off. And of course the whole thread was started in the spirit of "OMG teh stank is soooo nerfed!", so what did you really expect from this discussion, a mature discourse into the viability of the steam tank as a rare choice? Perhaps you ought to choose the threads you post in a bit more carefully if you want a more positive warseer experience. Personally, I just find threads like these to be hilarious.:D

Move Fast Hit Low
31-12-2006, 04:56
i dont really understand why you are complaining, if your steamtank rammed through my swordmasters and silver helms, and then my RBT put 3 wounds on you and you still didnt die, and you had the audacity to complain, i sir would kick you in the nuts

p.s.

Gorcus im loving your ogres

gORCUS
31-12-2006, 05:05
Thanks MFHL!

speedygogo
31-12-2006, 05:53
I also think that the steam tank is right about where it should be. You can now take 2 of them too.

Briohmar
31-12-2006, 06:17
Getting back to the original premises of the thread, let's look at this logically (I can't believe I just said that about this thing, but here we go.) In order for the STank to function it would require a crew of at minimum 6 (1 driver, 1 Commander, 3 artillerists (theres no such thing as an auto-loader on steam technology), and at least one guy as the boiler tech.) Now, we need to factor in the need for water, let's just say it would require 200 gallons (800 liters) of water to provide enough steam to move this massive hunk of metal (figure that it weighs in at a minimum 4 tons) and enough wood/coal to maintain a fire hot enough to boil that much water. Now 1 wound on the tank may not seem like much, but remember when you figure out how much space is available inside, (did I mention ammo for the gun?) any penetrating hit is like to cause some sort of major damage to the system. A hit on the boiler will reduce its ability to generate steam, a hit on a crewman will reduce the efficiency of the machine, a hit on the water tank will start losing water, a hit on the black powder (never stable to begin with) could cause secondary explosions, the list could keep going on. With all of these factors in mind, I think it is very reasonable to assume that the tank would lose some mobility each time it is hit (just imagine what a spear from a bolt thrower would do to an early version of a track shoe.)

Petey
31-12-2006, 09:51
Let s see, the tank is 300 points, in an army with points to spare... Well, if i were to take one, the use of it is simple, use it turn one to get 4 steam points
Use the points to move twelve inches, now it's in the center of the table. If enemy knights charge it, grind them to death, if infantry moves around it, shoot them the long way down their formations, if monsters engage it, next turn template and cannon them.
From the center of the table it can contest 2 or 4 table quarters, and be in good charge range (4 points gives you 12 inches, and 4d3 S6 hits which averages to 6 hits) these hits will do more damage than most to units of similar cost, and it is more immune to damage than most units. If you apply those 6 str 6 hits to say VC black knights you've just killed 3 of them, (not bad as they will not likely wound you back, and you always hit first with your impact hits) Sure it is less effective when wounded, most units are. I m sure that losing 2 of your 5 chaos chosen knights is no big deal to the unit (for those who can't read it here, insert your own sarcasm)
Seriously many armies i ve played against wouldn't even be able to hurt the steam tank. They lack the ability in either strength or armor piercing. All armies have a way to beat it, but not all players field those tools. Hell my Dark elf army has no RBTs, though it has a hydra, the hydra doesn't have the necessary armor piercing. Seriously the unit is balanced.
And hey, even when it's damaged it takes a lot for it to be killed, surrendering 150pts to your enemy for being at half, as most folks wont bother to finish it, once it's not a threat. Just stop trying to generate steam at 5 wounds.
The hellblaster i felt was an unusable item in previous editions. I didn't have the lack of shame i felt one needed, in order to play one on the table. My empire army has a really good win rate, i didn't Need the damn thing then, and I thought it was an unfair weapon. Now i can field one without thinking to myself, "Damn Pete, but you are a jerk"
I've seen them cause 30 hits on a misfire. Then you watch the opponents unit go from 25 spearmen to 6. Wow, in one turn, during a misfire, at an enemy at long range, this 125 point gun did about twice it's points in damage.
No range weapon should fairly be able to do that. And seriously, even it's average hits is 24, which against most infantry resolves to be 16 wounds with no save. Hell against most infantry lets guess an infantry guy (who can range from 4-15 points) will average 10pts, that still make the gun get it's points back the first turn it fires. What more evidence do you need that the thing needed to be brought in line with other artillery pieces, and now it's only Half as good as it was. Hell that only means that you have to fire it twice to get it's points back (lets remember it's a six turn game) and lets also remember that it can shred most things you send to take it out. That skirmishers can kill it is GREAT. That's how one killed artillery in the dark ages and ancient times (what little of it existed)

If this cannot express enough why the premise of this thread is erroneous then I don't know what can

Unclejo
31-12-2006, 09:54
And why allowing only a bsb to use the Griffon standard? I would have understood the change if they removed the inability to pursue. :eyebrows:

Having your best banners only available to the BSB is a feature of a great number of armies. You don't see many Skaven players complaining that they can't take Sacred Standard of the Horned Rat on anything but the BSB, do you?

vcassano
31-12-2006, 09:54
I just wonder why they removed the ability for greatswords to take magic banners :confused:

And why allowing only a bsb to use the Griffon standard? I would have understood the change if they removed the inability to pursue. :eyebrows:

I don't understand the Greatswords banner removal, as this willl mean even less people will use such a great unit.

However they got rid of the Griffon Standard (Without a high cost) because it was a mindless addition. 9/10 Empire players used it without hesitation because it was so good. They want the new Army Book to make you rethink your Army and Tactics - to make you more varied rather than rely on just one or two units/items.


The steam tank is great. I can finally use it and not feel guilty. Use it as a support unit. Put it next to some inner circle knights with a WP and watch anything in the game tremble :D

Exactly now that it isn't overpowered, people will be mroe friendly towards its users. It has a niche role in the army now and if you want this role in your army, then use one, if now don't. Simple. It can't do everything now.

t-tauri
31-12-2006, 10:07
Well I'm happy for you that you had other experiences, but in my short time on this board i got insulted as whiner as lunatic ... and so one only for proving my point of few. The ones I mean never proved their point (in fact i doubt they ever got one.)
If you feel you're being insulted please use the little white triangle on the left to report the relevant post to a moderator and we'll take a look at it.

As regards the thread as a whole let's keep it on topic and not meander off into flaming and trolling which will result in moderator action.

Derfel1
31-12-2006, 10:26
Having your best banners only available to the BSB is a feature of a great number of armies. You don't see many Skaven players complaining that they can't take Sacred Standard of the Horned Rat on anything but the BSB, do you?
That's right but the Skave BSB can hide in the last rank and the unit will still benefit from it. So the Skaven BSB is rather save where others are likely to get killed in the first one or two rounds of close combat.
That's especially not so nice if the BSB was supposed to help you winning the CR because your unit wouldn't otherwise be able to do so.

Murderous Monkey
31-12-2006, 11:18
If your battle standard bearer keeps dying then put him on a barded warhorse. and make sure there's a champion to accept any challenges. You've got toughness 4, a 2+ armour save and 2 wounds, should have a decent chance of surviving at least one round. As an added bonus he's also easier to move into another infantry unit if desirable.

You could pay for that warhorse with those points you saved from the infantry. ;)

Unclejo
31-12-2006, 11:25
That's right but the Skave BSB can hide in the last rank and the unit will still benefit from it. So the Skaven BSB is rather save where others are likely to get killed in the first one or two rounds of close combat.
That's especially not so nice if the BSB was supposed to help you winning the CR because your unit wouldn't otherwise be able to do so.

But every other BSB, who in the majority of cases is the only way of fielding the best banners, cant hide. so I guess they are all terrible too, right? Right???

It seems to me that rather relying on really imbalanced "insta-win!" units, you should have spent your time learning how to keep characters alive. Anyone stupid enough to attempt to challenge a BSB with the Griffon Banner would be introduced to his close personal friend, Timothy von Champion, and then routed by a hefty chunk of static CR.

And you can even use those extra points your getting from cheaper units to flank him! Fancy that, that big nasty character he's bringing to kill your BSB looks in deep do do to me!

Derfel1
31-12-2006, 12:00
But every other BSB, who in the majority of cases is the only way of fielding the best banners, cant hide. so I guess they are all terrible too, right? Right???

It seems to me that rather relying on really imbalanced "insta-win!" units, you should have spent your time learning how to keep characters alive. Anyone stupid enough to attempt to challenge a BSB with the Griffon Banner would be introduced to his close personal friend, Timothy von Champion, and then routed by a hefty chunk of static CR.

And you can even use those extra points your getting from cheaper units to flank him! Fancy that, that big nasty character he's bringing to kill your BSB looks in deep do do to me!

You don't have to challenge the BSB in order to attack him just point your attacks at the BSB (also no nasty surprises if the BSB is wearing the speculum instead of the banner) If your opponent issues a challenge himself it is time for your own champ to accept the challenge.
So what have I lost? Maybe I will loose the CR so my unit/Char. flees to be pursued by whom? Seriously not the unit with the Griffon standard.
Well I think I play long enough to know how the game runs.
From where comes your idea that I woulr rely on insta win units?

Corrupt
31-12-2006, 12:33
OMG
Brettonians suck
They HAVE to take a BSB and he's so easily killed...
They are clearly handicapped by this. Oh wait he has 2 wounds and a 2+ armour save. Empire chappy on foot has 2 wounds and a 3+ probably. Given he can be attacked by at most about 4 people...nope he seems fine to me. Just avoid contact with 500pts killy chaos lords.

Though I think he was referring to those who complain about this new, non god like steam tank. You seem sensible enough, agreeing its now a fairish weapon.
I don't understand this. T6, 10 wounds, 1+ armour save. Cannon, run people over.
Still seems pretty useful to me. Yes I can kill it with the cannons my elves dont have. But if the cannons are firing at said tank then they arn't hitting your expensive knights. The unit now has something to fear. OMG it sucks now.
Try playing elves if you want to try flimsy!!!
T3, 5+ Armour save for my rare and special choice combat infantry!!!!
At 13-15 pts per model too
The unit is still quite powerful and at least balanced it seems.

Belakor
31-12-2006, 12:41
isn't the hellblaster also Strength 5 at 24", instead of being S4 at long range?

Yup, and now ALL shots are counted for, not just half for long range.

Baindread
31-12-2006, 13:39
The rules for Fast Cavalry changed, making Pistoliers extremely deadly.

3 attacks S3? 5+ armour save? 18 pts? Deadly??? :confused:

Derfel1
31-12-2006, 13:55
OMG
Brettonians suck
They HAVE to take a BSB and he's so easily killed...
They are clearly handicapped by this. Oh wait he has 2 wounds and a 2+ armour save. Empire chappy on foot has 2 wounds and a 3+ probably. Given he can be attacked by at most about 4 people...nope he seems fine to me. Just avoid contact with 500pts killy chaos lords.

Bretonians are not the best example, for this.
1. they get the BSB for free (no extra point, 1 extra hero slot)
2. They use in a Cavalry unit with is most likely to attack and maybe has 3 ranks and a 2+ save + a ward save for free.
I think a bretonian lance can handle an opponent like 20 chaos warriors or elves or (insert a infantry regiment of your choice) without the help of they're 100 point banner.

But I agree that the Steam Tank is still a powerful model, more fragile than before but faster and deadlier than ever. (has he still to use a steam point for turning?) If he has to please ignore the part where I was saying "faster";)

Corrupt
31-12-2006, 14:01
Bretonians are not the best example, for this.
1. they get the BSB for free (no extra point, 1 extra hero slot)
2. They use in a Cavalry unit with is most likely to attack and maybe has 3 ranks and a 2+ save + a ward save for free.
I think a bretonian lance can handle an opponent like 20 chaos warriors or elves or (insert a infantry regiment of your choice) without the help of they're 100 point banner.


Twas sarcasm to illustrate point ;)
And the Brettonian lance is very much all flash no thunder. We are in very deep doo doo if we don't break the enemy on charge. Which can be trick...but I digress
Good summary of the tank there :)

Baindread
31-12-2006, 14:03
We are in very deep doo doo if we don't break the enemy on charge. Which can be trick

Luckily, that is one of the things bretonnian lances do best ;)

samw
31-12-2006, 14:03
3 attacks S3? 5+ armour save? 18 pts? Deadly??? :confused:

Fast cav can now shoot as well as move on the turn they rally, and pistoliers can do multiple shots with their pistols, which don't take penalties for movement. Hence if someone chases you you can easily flee rally, move out of charge arc and empty another 12 or so ST4 AP shots into them, depending on how you configured your unit.

Doomclaw
31-12-2006, 14:06
the pistoliers are very good, 3 str 3 attacks is good for a fast cavalry unit, it is enough against support units. Elven fast cavalry is much more expensive, has less attacks and only one point of movement extra, and they happen to cost 24 points.

samw
31-12-2006, 14:30
Bretonians are not the best example, for this.
1. they get the BSB for free (no extra point, 1 extra hero slot)

No, they pay minimum 70 pts (actual guy and virtue of empathy). On a horse it'll cost you 74. If you don't want him splattered by the first fellow with a big axe you'd better invest in some protection too.


2. They use in a Cavalry unit with is most likely to attack and maybe has 3 ranks and a 2+ save + a ward save for free.

I have never, EVER seen a Bret lance with 3 ranks, and I rarely see one's with two outside my own army, few of which ever reach combat intact. Powergamers go for loads of six man ones. The blessing is not 'free', anymore than the "detachment" rule, "strength in numbers" or "undead" are free. It can also be lost rather easily.


I think a bretonian lance can handle an opponent like 20 chaos warriors or elves or (insert a infantry regiment of your choice) without the help of they're 100 point banner.

Actually anything with unbreakable, undead, stubborn or T4 and a 3+ save will probably stand against the standard block of 9 Knights of the Realm. So off the top of my head that's Ironbreakers, Hammerers, slayers, graveguard, tombguard, skeletons, zombies, Black Orcs etc. Brets actually do far better against heavy cavalry than heavy infantry. And no-one out of the sunday leagues bothers with the Banner of the Lady, not when warbanner and virtue of Duty will suit you for 45 points less.

Derfel1
31-12-2006, 14:44
No, they pay minimum 70 pts (actual guy and virtue of empathy). On a horse it'll cost you 74. If you don't want him splattered by the first fellow with a big axe you'd better invest in some protection too.

I have never, EVER seen a Bret lance with 3 ranks, and I rarely see one's with two outside my own army, few of which ever reach combat intact. Powergamers go for loads of six man ones. The blessing is not 'free', anymore than the "detachment" rule, "strength in numbers" or "undead" are free. It can also be lost rather easily.

Actually anything with unbreakable, undead, stubborn or T4 and a 3+ save will probably stand against the standard block of 9 Knights of the Realm. So off the top of my head that's Ironbreakers, Hammerers, slayers, graveguard, tombguard, skeletons, zombies, Black Orcs etc. Brets actually do far better against heavy cavalry than heavy infantry. And no-one out of the sunday leagues bothers with the Banner of the Lady, not when warbanner and virtue of Duty will suit you for 45 points less.


-So would you say that bretonians only use a BSB because they have to?
-Empire BSB 75 pints without armor or horse! And one less hero slot to use.
-How much points is the blessing?
-Would you expect these units to get a charge against you? Would you -attack them if you don't know you will win the fight?

Corrupt
31-12-2006, 15:05
1)I would use it, for fluff (as it says they need a guy to carry the colours)
But its not that amazing a model. You could live without it and get more other knights.

2)Empire pay 5pts for state troops with spears and shields. For 5pts we get a model, with the same equipment, -1ws,-1bs, -2ld. It evens out over the army...

3)Depends who we play, given you get to choose to go first and blow 7 bells of hell out of my very expensive and none bolt/cannon proof knights in turn one it evens out.

4)They can get a charge in our flanks once we engange AND we don't have much choice. Any sufficiently ranked up medium/heavy infantry unit has a reasonable chance of holding, but we have to charge anyway in order to have any chance of victory, who dares wins and all. Brettonians arn't the most suble of armies by and large. We have a guy at the front scream charge and hope for the best. Unless I'm a crazy tournament winner who must win at all costs i'd charge my knights into any infantry regiment, it's what they'd do and I like seeing my knights be heroic!

der_lex
31-12-2006, 15:26
Another way of keeping your STank useful would be taking the Holy Mechanic...err...a Warrior Priest. One Healing Hand and your Stank is back at full wounds...

Stouty
31-12-2006, 15:30
2)Empire pay 5pts for state troops with spears and shields. For 5pts we get a model, with the same equipment, -1ws,-1bs, -2ld. It evens out over the army...

I'm with you on the not being able to compare units from different armies effectively but the infantry point is a bit unfair. Peasants duty means quite often when it counts M@A have an extra pip of Ld, the BS doesn't come into it and against WS 4 foes or better the WS thing don't make a difference either.

I reckon you could play a rock steady brettonian infantry army (with cavalry supports)

Petey
31-12-2006, 16:37
When did this topic get derailed? Why is it about the lance formation? Don't tell me we proved out point and are on to old gripes?

But since we are on to the lance formation, I think warhammer fantasy should take a que from warhammer historical and give all cav the countercharge charge reaction (for those unfamiliar, if you're outside your enemies normal move you can use this, like reaction fire; if you counter charge they still go first but you get to use lance/spear on the first turn) and i would like to see cavalry units not allowed to get more than say 1 or 2 CR from ranks; horses don't press ranks forward.
As to the blessing, I don't feel it's overpowered, but i would like to see it as a unit upgrade for X points per unit, rather than it giving up your first turn. It's too much of a no brainer right now.

Griefbringer
31-12-2006, 17:07
against WS 4 foes or better the WS thing don't make a difference either.


Except against foes with WS of 5 or 6 (where WS 2 models will need 5+ to hit, while models with WS 3 will be hitting on 4+). :cool:

That said, could we perhaps get back to the original topic (something to do with steam tanks, I think) while interested people can start a new thread to discuss about the Bretonnians.

vorac
31-12-2006, 19:36
actually der_lex the steam tank can only be affected by spells that use a given strength so you cannot heal it in any way :(

Lt. Co Steel
31-12-2006, 19:40
On the subject of Steam Tanks i would like to people to remember that there is only meant to be around 7-8(i may be wrong on the actuall figures) Stanks left in the whole of the empire. i belive that they were uber because it was rare. you even needed to buy one of the anuels to get the rules(i know there was a white dwarf articale, and you could get it from the internet but this seemed more official) and i have only ever seen one empire army with stank since i started playing! and people were reluctant to play him. with the new rules allowing you to take more than one(possibly) the magic of the rarely seen unit was lost, i belive that it should have kept its old rules and become some kind of special charecter.

thats my two cents on the subject anyway, happy new year

Wickerman71
31-12-2006, 20:14
i dont really understand why you are complaining, if your steamtank rammed through my swordmasters and silver helms, and then my RBT put 3 wounds on you and you still didnt die, and you had the audacity to complain, i sir would kick you in the nuts

I thought the same thing; taking out a unit of Silver Helms & Sword Masters, drawing bolt thower fire plus surviving the game is a massive VP swing in his favor. This must have won him the game provided he was not inept with the rest of his force. Plus the WE argument is weak as well being as the Woody commited more points to the engagment than the value of the Stank. God forbid that somethings that costs more points than something ealse was able to take it out. Is that not the whole reason for point values in the first place, to place a value to a units in game potential.

intellectawe
31-12-2006, 20:43
Steam Tank is fine. Stop crying that you can't use it as a crutch anymore.

This marks a VERY GOOD out look for GW. The past few army books have been balanced and fair, and not made to be over powered. The issue is dealing with past army books. But when Lizardmen and Skaven get redone, units like the steam tank will be very viable as a sort of power unit again.

der_lex
01-01-2007, 02:19
actually der_lex the steam tank can only be affected by spells that use a given strength so you cannot heal it in any way :(

You're right, I forgot about that. I guess it's for the better background-wise, since a priest 'healing' a mechanical construction would have been rather odd... :D

Doomclaw
01-01-2007, 10:24
It would add to the theory of sigmar being a primarch from 40k, after all, he might have picked up some mechanical skills while sleeping as a baby...

Falkman
02-01-2007, 12:38
I think the thing people (me included) find most irritating is that the STank need only lose 1 or 2 wounds to become seriously unstable and unsafe to use.
When paying 300 pts you don't want that expensive kit to become useless after suffering only a few wounds, as the amount of wounds is one of the things that makes it expensive in the first place.
You don't see a dragon/treeman/shaggoth/hydra/spawn/giant/other big gribbly getting less attacks or movement when he loses wounds, so why should the STank?

That is my main gripe with it, not that it became a little less powerful, that it deserved.

Baindread
02-01-2007, 13:27
Fast cav can now shoot as well as move on the turn they rally, and pistoliers can do multiple shots with their pistols, which don't take penalties for movement. Hence if someone chases you you can easily flee rally, move out of charge arc and empty another 12 or so ST4 AP shots into them, depending on how you configured your unit.

Ah, I missed that they changed it to Brace of pistols. I presumed they still only would manage 1 shot per pistolier. The move-and-shoot part I already knew but getting more shots makes it better.




the pistoliers are very good, 3 str 3 attacks is good for a fast cavalry unit, it is enough against support units. Elven fast cavalry is much more expensive, has less attacks and only one point of movement extra, and they happen to cost 24 points.


3 attacks at S3 is good compared to elven fast cav, but seeing as elven fast cav is the most overpriced units in the game, it doesn't say much. Pistoliers were balanced at 2 S4 attacks each, weighing in a 19 pts. Okay, they have been given a different role now but why change something that isn't broken and not change the things that are broken? That is the general feeling I get from this book. I have been contemplating whether or not the developers got tired from doing the "massive" changes to the O&G-book so they didn't put as much effort into the empire book. ;)

Baindread
02-01-2007, 13:30
I think the thing people (me included) find most irritating is that the STank need only lose 1 or 2 wounds to become seriously unstable and unsafe to use.
When paying 300 pts you don't want that expensive kit to become useless after suffering only a few wounds, as the amount of wounds is one of the things that makes it expensive in the first place.
You don't see a dragon/treeman/shaggoth/hydra/spawn/giant/other big gribbly getting less attacks or movement when he loses wounds, so why should the STank?

That is my main gripe with it, not that it became a little less powerful, that it deserved.

I agree in full. At 5-6-7 wounds the enemy still hasn't gotten half of the VPs its worth, but it is useless and good for nothing as you can't do anything without it losing more wounds. At 5 wounds it should start going on "spare steam" or something, functioning like a regular chariot with a set movement value but only doing D6 S5-6 impact hits.

EvC
02-01-2007, 13:51
At low wounds it can still claim or contest table quarters, at least.

Another point brought up is the issue of infantry being weakened because the Griffon Banner is now only available to a BSB. I don't quite understand, were people managing to give this magic banner to every single infantry unit they had before, or was it always something only one unit could take, in which case it's pretty baseless to say infantry has been weakened.

Plus to add in on the Pistoliers, for the one unit that might have the Griffon Banner, get the Pistoliers behind a combat with the GB unit and the fact they can't persue is instantly made up for...

IcedCrow
02-01-2007, 13:58
To sum it up:

People always cry when their tried and true tactics are suddenly changed. It means they must deviate from their standard cookie-cutter way of playing the same way every game and try new things to find the next cookie-cutter.

This irritates people.

Less tournaments are won. Less glory is to be had. No more ticker tape parades when they walk down the aisles of the mall by strangers adolating in their genius.

Infantry for the empire is hardly broken over a single banner needing a BSB. Boo hoo. It's nice now knowing that not every empire army will have one of these somewhere.

The steam tank is now more inline with the rules and not as powerful as it was before. Boo hoo. In the old rules it hardly ever failed to make up its 300 points and often made up far more. People got used to this. Now the steam-crutch is not a given item anymore. It may fail. It may not make up 300 points reliably like it used to.

It still soaks up hell-a-fire... it still crunchs things nicely... it's just not a 100% no brainer anymore.

When a new edition comes out you should know by now that you will have to adapt new tactics to the new books. That in part is what makes the game fun. It forces people who rely on the same tricks over and over again to tap into their inner Napolean and find another way to become the grand master on their block.

Axel
02-01-2007, 17:19
Seriously many armies i ve played against wouldn't even be able to hurt the steam tank.
Seriously I doubt that there is ANY army out there that has no S4 weapon.
At S4 chances are 1/36 to yield a would that seriously reduces the STs efficiency.
Let us assume a bolt thrower which you get for 35-40 pts each. For a meagre 140 pts (less then half of the STs cost) an Ork can field four. Let them shoot at the ST at 24+. Two will hit, 1.3 will wound, no armour saves. After the first round the ST is seriously hampered, after the second it is useless. It becomes worse if it is within 24".



Seriously the unit is balanced.
Nope, not for 300pts. They should have left the ST out of the Empire book and use the pages for other content, especially considering that the rareness of the ST should prevent their common appearance anyway.



Just stop trying to generate steam at 5 wounds.
The problem is that after two wounds you can either turn or shoot. Add another, and you are out of save shooting. Seriously, would you FIELD a ST in your army for 300 pts?


The hellblaster i felt was an unusable item in previous editions. ... I thought it was an unfair weapon.
How noble...


And seriously, even it's average hits is 24,
Providing you don`t hit the 40% chance every round it shoots for a miscast.


which against most infantry resolves to be 16 wounds with no save.
You are talking about the last edition, do you? In the new edition the 24 shots will translate into 6 hits (>12"), unless you shoot at skirmishers (3 hits) or use a 60pts engineer.


and now it's only Half as good as it was.
OK, last edition. "Half as good" for 8% cost reduction is not the best deal. Anyway, against well armoured or high toughness targets the efficiency of the Hellblaster actually increased in the >12" range.


Hell that only means that you have to fire it twice to get it's points back (lets remember it's a six turn game) .
OK, I now believe you that you did not field one. If you shoot that damned thing thrice you have only a 22% chance that you still have a HB. Only 1 out of 20 HBs would survive six rounds of shooting. Using the HB was (and is) more often a gift to the oppnent as much as a deterrent.


@IcedCrow
You sound like somebody who failed to ever find a countermeasure to the old Steamtanks...

Anyway, the new Steamtank IS a nobrainer. Its a nobrainer NOT to use them.

I dare challenge those here who claim it is "balanced" now to use them in their armies - its YOUR point that they are worth their points. Ask someone who plays Empire and has tried it, I am sure you will get his consence.

That said, I am not complaining. I can play without a Steamtank, and HBs still have their use. They just could have used the pages better then to produce a unit that is next to useless (a la Sisters Repentias in the WH). Well, perhaps I will be able to grab one of the 6th edition Steamtanks from eBay for cheap someday.

BTW: The only thing I really dislike on the new Empire book is its lack of Halflings...

sergentzimm
02-01-2007, 22:34
Imagine that, the Steam Tank has become balanced. What a terrible thing indeed!

Actually with four or five games with the paper weight, I would agree. This thing is garbage and its actually overpriced. Sure it is powerful, but so easily hamstrung. All you really need to do is wound it a few times and its screwed. Hell one game my opponnent ignored it and it still ended the game with 4 wounds left...

The thing is definitely a novelty that is overpriced for what it does, it is not "balanced" at all. Of course very little in Warhammer is "balanced" but ill leave that alone.

Petey
02-01-2007, 23:40
Seriously I doubt that there is ANY army out there that has no S4 weapon.
At S4 chances are 1/36 to yield a would that seriously reduces the STs efficiency.
Let us assume a bolt thrower which you get for 35-40 pts each. For a meagre 140 pts (less then half of the STs cost) an Ork can field four. Let them shoot at the ST at 24+. Two will hit, 1.3 will wound, no armour saves. After the first round the ST is seriously hampered, after the second it is useless. It becomes worse if it is within 24".
There are many army designs that don't field these units. To address the orc example, you re assuming you have 4 bolt throwers because you plan to deal with the ST. Most OandG players i ve played have 2 and a rock lobba. This cuts down the shooting quite a bit, and all that besides, even if they do hamstring it, it Usually takes a few rounds, and you can do much with it tactically in the mean time. At the same time, i m glad most army books have an answer to the thing;just remember many army lists wont always have those answers on hand.




Nope, not for 300pts. They should have left the ST out of the Empire book and use the pages for other content, especially considering that the rareness of the ST should prevent their common appearance anyway.
I m not sure how it's rareness is currently addressed, more may have been built, the game does seem to progress in story line of late. But rareness is arbitrary anyway.



The problem is that after two wounds you can either turn or shoot. Add another, and you are out of save shooting. Seriously, would you FIELD a ST in your army for 300 pts?
I ll give it a shot. I can see great potential in this unit. It can be downed, sure, but my elves can be routed off the field before shooting if you get a little lucky on ranged attacks and i roll poorly on Ld (it's happened)



How noble...
let me formally forgive your sarcasm, as you don't know me, and must be skeptical of some claims that people make about not wanting their friends to have a bad time playing against them. Surely most players want their gaming buddies to hate playing them and come away from the game feeling cheated. But i guess i m not like most people. My sarcasm aside, i really did refuse to use it on the grounds that i thought it was unfair (i have a high elf all shooty army too, and refused to use the SoC seaguard list for the same reason)


providing you don`t hit the 40% chance every round it shoots for a miscast.
I see the danger of the thing exploding, but really the risks were totally worth it. Also, it didn't explode with every misfire, in fact, unlike other warmachines, it had a good misfire result.



You are talking about the last edition, do you? In the new edition the 24 shots will translate into 6 hits (>12"), unless you shoot at skirmishers (3 hits) or use a 60pts engineer.
Yes in fact i was talking about last edition. I think the number of hits is more appropriate now.



OK, last edition. "Half as good" for 8% cost reduction is not the best deal. Anyway, against well armoured or high toughness targets the efficiency of the Hellblaster actually increased in the >12" range.
I don't care about the 'deal' you want. I want the unit to be fair. I feel that it is now. I agree with the design team's assessment that the thing was overpowered and needed to be toned down. And i don't mind that it's more effective against armor close up. that's not the issue that i was on about. (Hell unless you arent good at gauging range, you wont ever be in 12" of the thing with heavy cav."


OK, I now believe you that you did not field one. If you shoot that damned thing thrice you have only a 22% chance that you still have a HB. Only 1 out of 20 HBs would survive six rounds of shooting. Using the HB was (and is) more often a gift to the oppnent as much as a deterrent.
Wow, i m humble by the sheer size of your ego here. Thanks for only taking my word after assuming i m an idiot for not agreeing with you. Yes the thing will explode. Yes sometimes it explodes early. But, MOST times, the thing did a hell of a lot of damage, and paid for itself many times over before that. Most Empire players fielded it, for that very reason. It was (and still is) a good gamble, and when it works, it removes an enemy unit, so what that sometimes you have to give your opponent 115 VP when you effectively take twice that from him in most games.



I dare challenge those here who claim it is "balanced" now to use them in their armies - its YOUR point that they are worth their points. Ask someone who plays Empire and has tried it, I am sure you will get his consence.
I already mapped out a road to success with the damn thing, and sure i ll use it, to see how it goes (not that it fits the theme of my army but i ll give it a try). Wait... not that you ll actually believe me about how it plays for me, as you seem to be incredulous about any opinion that's not yours. Oh well.


That said, I am not complaining. I can play without a Steamtank, and HBs still have their use. They just could have used the pages better then to produce a unit that is next to useless (a la Sisters Repentias in the WH). Well, perhaps I will be able to grab one of the 6th edition Steamtanks from eBay for cheap someday.
Yes you are. You don't like it, you don't feel it s worth it, and you ve attacked people who disagree with you. This is a complaint. And it's ok to have one, this is after all a public forum. I personally don't LIKE the thing either. I like a dirtier grittier army for empire, but it Does belong in the fluff they've had under development. Have an open mind, and when i send you the battle report, please do me the courtesy of assuming i m not lying to you.


BTW: The only thing I really dislike on the new Empire book is its lack of Halflings...
Halflings should be part of your baggage train, and maybe as added figures in militia units. The empire doesn't go to war with giant contingents of halflings. That being said, i m sure we ll see them available as Dogs of War eventually.

Commodus Leitdorf
03-01-2007, 00:41
Two Games does not a correlation make...

However, after readin through all this I'll throw in my two cents. The Helblasters role has changed, no heavy hitting unit will want to get into 24' of the thing now, especially knights. The thing amy not hit with many shots but in my experience, knights dont run in 20+ units and with a -3 to AS...I can assure you your gonna kill something. It does have a nasty misfire rate...but then again i've never been in a game where i've fired it more then twice anyway so I'll stick with my odds.

...though having just finished a game against my buddies Dark Elves that contained my Helblaster taking out Mengil and his Manflayers. a 10 strong unit...almost 400pts....yeah I think the Helblaster needed what it got.

There is no tactical problem that cant be solved in this game by simply throwing more troops at it. The new army book lets me keep doing this even more effectively, so I have no complaints.

vorac
03-01-2007, 02:39
Finally some people who agree with me (sergeantzimm, Axel), i was feeling like i was the only one.

Shank
03-01-2007, 03:50
I feel Empire players have the right to gripe a little bit. I must say I found the new Empire book a little disappointing. Books like "Orcs/Goblins and Dwarfs" just got better. While the Empire got better in some places (Warrior Priests, Flagellants) and not so good in others (No calvary hammer, fullisade, Inner Circle special slot, Helblaster, no magic banners for any infantry unless you take a Empire General etc.) I am amazed at the number of people on this site that thought the Empire army needed to be toned down. These same people that probably field "All Core Mortal Chaos Armies", Dwarf artillary with 8 different runes on it or Elf players with 4 Repeater bolt throwers filling up all of their rare slots. If the Empire Army needed toning down, hopefully these issues will be addressed in other new books (new Dwarf book is out already so that is mute, oh yeah, did I bring up Bretonnian Pegasus Knights?)

That said, this is a thread on the Steam Tank so lets re-focus. The problem with the Empire book is "not" the Steam Tank. I really like the new rules. Sure it is expensive, but used correctly it is devestating. Lets face it, the old rules were really tough to understand and they needed to be rewritten. There are many improvements with this new version. Don't have to use SP to pivot, impact hits are determined by how many SP's you declare for a charge, not inches moved, can hit skirmishers, once in combat the tank can grind as many D3 as SP you use (don't have to do that annoying back up 6 inches charge forward 6 blah, blah), very tough characters can't do 12 wounds to the thing making a mess of Combat Res, the steam gun (although 2str) is now no armor save etc.
The main weakness of the Tank is the same as it always been, "High Strength Hits". Keep your tank away from cannons or Super Tough Characters and your tank will be nails tough. I used it this weekend against my friend who plays Orcs. I was very careful when I deployed, keeping it away from his Black Orc characters with nasty weapons and lined it up to protect my flank. On turn 2 I charged it into a unit of 25 Black Orcs (no characters) using 5 Sp killing 9 of the brutes. They broke from combat causing a unit of 25 Boyz to panic, bonus. The Black Orcs rallied in their turn. I charged again in mine causing another 9 wounds. That combined with a little shooting and those Orcs fled the field. After that the tank was charged. After a full 6 turns of gaming, the tank suffered only 2 wounds. Not bad.
My advice, deployment is crucial, No high strength hits, get into combat ASAP, and don't fire the cannon unless the shot is just too juciey to resist.

Oh yeah, try that tank in a 1500 point game. Hey, take 2........

IcedCrow
03-01-2007, 13:35
I don't think the empire needed toning down neccessarily, but the things that got changed I think got changed for the better.

Inner Circle knights shouldn't be core. Hell I don't even know why they bother to have normal knights, it's not like anyone takes knights that aren't inner circle anyway.

The auto hit weapons were going to all change so that you had to roll to hit, so that's no surprise the hellblaster had that happen to it.

The steam tank was a giant crutch that was a bit too good for it's cost.

Fusilade wasn't neccessarily overpowering, but it made pistoliers, a light cavalry unit, into a potentially devastating offensive charging cavalry unit, which GW decided wasn't how they wanted them to be.

The banner thing makes sense. You get special abilities depending on what general you take. That's pretty cool I think. More "themed".

heldane
03-01-2007, 16:15
I've just started playing an empire army myself, many of my firends have them and i've always held off.

There have always been a few staple items/units.

Hellblasters, griffon standard in a unit of state troops are the two that spring to mind and that have been discussed so far in this thread. They're also 2 that I found to be rather annoying.

When I decided to play my own empire it was because I wanted to see if it could be done without those 2 units.

As to loosing the griffon stnadard, I feel that any empire player worth the title of skilled general should always be able to ensure that he is on a combat res of 6 (+3 ranks, +1 standard, +1 outnumber and +1 flank) as opposed to his opponents 1 (+1 standard). Of course this relies on having a detachment, but i dont see this as a problem, and indeed, with a unit of 25 swords/halberds/spears and a detachment of 10 free company with 2 hand weapons each will give you a healthy 16 attacks (assuming ranks of 5 and a unit champ).

Is that +3 combat resolution from the griffon standard in your one unit you could have taken it in really that big a loss? In my opinion not really.

With the hellblasters I've not though about them eitherway but as I'm adamant not to include them in my force then i'm not overly worried.

As for the topic in question, the steamtank, I'm happy with the rules......sure its not a super killy unit of doom but as has been stated can now be very useful, and as such is something that i would consider adding to my force.


Well thats just my opinions...I hope my rambling makes some sense.

Dan

Snotteef
03-01-2007, 17:51
Books like "Orcs/Goblins and Dwarfs" just got better

Try telling that to Goblin players. :rolleyes:

Stouty
03-01-2007, 18:26
The new edition books. Ogre Kingdoms, wood elves, dwarfs, O&G, empire.

As far as powering these things I'd put them in this rank with confidense
Wood Elves (when played well they have hidious capabilities)

Dwarfs (at the minute I'm not sure whether this is because the players have had a more practice than the orcs and empire but also if 2 idiots play a game dwarf should win. I discount thorek but not the anvil in general.)

Empire/O&G (it's a tight call, it won't be untill a couple months pass by that I can rate these, OG certainly have a lot of potential in the right hands but it's hard to make an empire army any weaker than this)

Ogre Kingdoms (just because you can win with them doesn't make them not bottom; they still have the hardest time)

Though skaven and things maybe able to go far and beyond these books I think everyone is going to be brought inline so unless GW let's themselves go this is going to be a well balanced edition. I've been impressed so far.

I think when they fix high elves, brettonians and skaven (Lizards and VC perhaps as well) the range of power will be made much smaller. With high elves and VC on the horizon I say good things are happening.

Heretic Burner
03-01-2007, 19:19
Yeah the new Empire book is a very decent effort. I believe your ranking of relative power level isn't too far off. However I'd certainly change a few things:

1) Wood Elves (Obvious choice, just look at the top ten of nearly every tournament since their release)

2) Dwarfs (Solid army. Get the edge over Empire simply because of Thorek nonsense)

3) Empire (Stronger than before. I'm really looking forward to the changes)

4) O&G (Easily the worst produced book of the bunch. Easily the army most harmed by the changes. Dreadful release top to bottom)

5) OK (An army that simply isn't competitive with the rules. A nice idea to have an army play a bit differently than the usual but an idea that went very very wrong)

With GW's recent examples of knee-jerk overreactions to balancing, I am almost sadistically interested in how poorly they'll treat upcoming releases. I fully expect Skaven to be toned down, but by how much? Rumours circulating about the HE book has it being the blandest of bland.

Still, I'll give credit where it is due, they've done a fine job with the Empire release.

Shank
04-01-2007, 01:41
Well, maybe I should have said "Orcs" got better. Goblins got hit a little bit with the subtraction of the extra characters they used to be able to take. But they got two real cool units in the revamped Squigs (Hoppers and Herds). WS 4 ST 5 2 A! NICE!! No empire unit has stats like that and Goblins have 2! Granted, all Goblin armies will probably start to go away now as people start adding more of the Boyz!! Orcs are now just to good to pass up.

Back to the Griffon Banner stuff. One of my biggest complaints about the new Empire book (and why I think it is poorly written) is that no infantry units in the "Whole" army can take a magic standard unless they take an Empire General. Then they can take a magic standard worth up to 50 points. Problem is, there is "No" banner worth 50 points available to state troops! The best one is the Banner of Valour at 30pts. A nice banner, but since my general is almost always mounted, why would I give up the Grand Master?? I am really going to give up a unit of Inner Circle Knights who are immune to Psychology for, lets say, a unit of Swordsmen who are immune to panic? ummm, No.
But I know what you are saying. "Shank, the Empire General is cheaper", lets do some quick "Shank" math:
Grandmaster comes with barded horse, lance or great weapon, Full Plate, shield, 6WS 4A unit of knights immune to psyh. 145 points
Empire General 80 points +21 barded horse + 12 full plate +3 shield +6 lance
122 points. Now add your banner of Valour +30. Your general costs your army 152 points. And oh yeah, 5WS 3A!
That is just silly! If I am going to take a General, there had better be a banner that makes it worth while, and there isn't. The Griffon banner should have stayed at 50 points. Then, maybe. So, to sum up, the Empire General is useless (unless you want him on foot or riding a Griffon), along with the Engineer. Whoa, a little off topic, Sorry guys...... Oh yeah, Love the TANK!!

der_lex
04-01-2007, 02:21
Never underestimate the power of a simple 25 point War Banner...

And you mainly have the Empire General for his leadership anyway, not for his combat abilities... (that, indeed, is what a grand master is for)

C'tan Undivided
04-01-2007, 11:00
Well i played already several times with my friend who keeps experimenting with the new Empire army. Played against his 2 steam tanks, 4 cannons, 3 wizards and arch lector on the altar. The steam tanks are really a nice thing but have to be used wisely - it is not anymore something like a big CHAAAARGE in the center of the battle. They have nice armour save but as many of you said before - abything can harm them now - war machines, spells, bows... even zombies :)
Still I would go if I played an empire army for at least one of them - the enemy has to concetrate his all firepower on the tank unless this terror monster reaches his lines and some of the units will just flee :)
The tank got balanced a little - previously only my VC lord on a Zombie dragon had enough killing power to destroy it - now my zombies, skeletons, dire wolves, spirit hosts have some chance of doing something.
For all empire players - you don't start building the army choosing firstly the rares then specials and then cores. The tank is not the only option - there are nicer things to field.
This week my friend will experiment with 2 Helstrums - should be fun against my skeletons.

Shank
04-01-2007, 12:13
A Grand Master has a 9 leadership also, same as the Empire General. Do I want a unit of State troops with a +1 Combat Res (War Banner) or a Unit of Inner Circle Knights who are immune to Psychology? Seems like a no brainer to me.

IcedCrow
04-01-2007, 13:34
By all means take the grandmaster. Nothing says love like the rest of the army out of leadership range because the mounted general is charging off with his unit of doom to kill everything in front of him.

Of course that's why I also play more warmaster than warhammer.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
04-01-2007, 16:13
lol at the original poster. What a crybaby... :p

damiengore
04-01-2007, 17:02
I think the steamtank is worth the 300 points as my giant is 205, doesn;t have an armour save, doesn't have a great cannnon and steam cannon and doesn't inflict major impact hits. Don't forget the thing causes TERROR! In one game I played my giant sent 300 points of knights fleeing off the table and he didn't even touch them! Last night he broke a hole in my friends empire line just by walking up to it! Terror is a huge asset and having a move and fire GC is not too shabby either. I think 300 points is reasonable considering.

On the Hellblaster, my friend used to literally shred units to ribbons with this monster all on it's own which left his mortars other targets to pulverize. It was completely brainless, at least now its reasonable.

Sure the OG book got some improvements but have you read the threads about Goblins going up a point and boar boyz going up 4? And don't get me started on the 8 points it costs to upgrade them to big uns, yick! Somebody here said it, those people who rely on unbalanced units to win will always gripe when they get nerfed.

Anyone complaining about the cheaper empire infantry????

IcedCrow
04-01-2007, 18:23
They don't use the cheaper empire infantry, they load up on inner circle knights and other uber units and rely on the unbalance to carry them to sweet tournament victory ;)

mwahahaha

Shank
04-01-2007, 21:34
I love when people call other peoples army "uber". I am sure when they are making up their list for their respective army they always pick the "so called" fair and balanced list. This list is well themed and meant strictly for fun. Gimme a break. Someone has gotten smacked around by the Empire little too much. If the list is fair and within the rules, it isn't a "uber" list. It is a "well" created one. How anyone can call any unit in the Empire army "uber" is beyond me...

GrogsnotPowwabomba
04-01-2007, 21:46
Did you play 6th Edition? Did you ever face the Empire Gunline with Knights and the Steam Tank? It was simply too powerful and required very little talent to use.

No matter how much you want to apologize for people who used the Steam Tank, it WAS uber and it WAS a game breaking model...

IcedCrow
05-01-2007, 02:54
I play Empire. Other than my chaos khorne almost-all foot army, my empire (Tilean themed) army is:

1 unit of knights led by a grandmaster as my general
1 unit of swordsmen
1 unit of spearmen
3 units of crossbow
1 unit of pikemen
1 cannon
1 unit of greatswords

Some odds and ends as the match warrants. Throw in a captain and a wizard perhaps, etc...

NOthing was really broken with empire before other than the steam crutch. Granted it got OLD fighting against the all inner circle all wizard or all gunline armies often, but they weren't broken, just highly unbalanced (and the games were over either for or against you by turn 4 at the latest).

NightLord
05-01-2007, 03:59
I dont think you should complain. They were way to powerful before and now they are better. Maybe consider using it more carefully. Why did you bum rush sword masters? They have great weapons! Attack things that wont pwn you and it will do alot better. The steam tank is over powered still in my opinion. Because if the player playing you wants to kill it he/she has to use great amounts of man power to kill it therefore taking away alot of points of troops for several turns from the rest of the battle. But if it is ignored it will kill a large amount of your troops and gain its points back. It is kinda stupid to complain about it.

NakedFisherman
05-01-2007, 04:01
I want to see what the Fellblade does to a Steam Tank. :D

Varath- Lord Impaler
05-01-2007, 06:53
Runefang would be great too

Asq_Dak
05-01-2007, 10:34
Runefang would be great too

Three auto wounds... not bad!

anarchistica
05-01-2007, 11:23
Seriously I doubt that there is ANY army out there that has no S4 weapon.
At S4 chances are 1/36 to yield a would that seriously reduces the STs efficiency.
Let us assume a bolt thrower which you get for 35-40 pts each. For a meagre 140 pts (less then half of the STs cost) an Ork can field four. Let them shoot at the ST at 24+. Two will hit, 1.3 will wound, no armour saves. After the first round the ST is seriously hampered, after the second it is useless. It becomes worse if it is within 24".
One in 36? Even if you hit the Stank on a 2+, it's 1 in 43. At 3+ it's 1 in 54, 4+ 1 in 72.

Aside from 100 point RBT's and some magical bows, High/Dark Elves are limited to S3 missile fire. The same goes for other armies, if they have missile fire at all.

I suck at maths, but even i can tell you're doing poorly. Two BTs will hit at S6. S6 vs. T6 is a 4+ to wound, a chance of 50%. So if four BTs worth 140 points and 2 Special slots shoot at a Stank at long range, they will on average cause 2 Wounds. By turn 2, the Stank will be in combat, your Outriders have shot the crew, your Pistoliers have charged them and your Pegacaptain too. Also, your Knights did not get shot at, nor did any of your other units. Also, your Stank is still worth 300 VP to you.

Feel free to do the maths for RBTs or armies that lack such things. Also, feel free to consider what a T6 Terror Causing Unbreakable unit will do to most "friendly" armies.

By the way, i laughed at loud when i read "he charges the treeman in". It's pretty amazing those Movement 5 Dryads managed to charge your Stank in turn 2... how does that work exactly? Where were your other units? What were your Cannons and Knights doing? You think a 300 point unit should be able to take on 2 units with a combined value of around 400 points -getting charged by a unit worth nearly 300 on it's own- and expect to live?

Why are you playing Empire anyway when there's Bretonnia? ;)

Baindread
05-01-2007, 11:47
@Anarchistica:

Actually, he is correct in his math. The Stank is hit automatically in combat.

Imperial Git
05-01-2007, 14:08
I still think the Steam Tank is a very good unit; only a new manner of deployment is required. I've always played carefully with the Tank (ever since it had it's big metal behind handed to it in three subsequent games against OK and BoC), so little will change for me. Use it as a countercharge unit for example. Recently I played 3000pts against Brettonia. My infantry took the charge, held and subsequently my tank joined the fight, helping out my footsloggers. Alternatively, you could use the tank as a tarpit, holding down valuable enemy units (and damaging them in the process) while your infantry set themselves up for a flank or rear charge. Experiment with it some more, and you will find a proper use for it sooner or later.

And remember; shoot and magic the begeezus out of any Treemen or Treekin that move so much as an inch towards your lines!

IcedCrow
05-01-2007, 14:15
The steam tank is a very good unit. It can still do a lot of damage, it just can't do it brainlessly. You can't just shove it forward anymore. It CAN be hurt now, and against certain armies hurt quickly.

Axel
05-01-2007, 14:41
...if the player playing you wants to kill it he/she has to use great amounts of man power to kill it ...

Nope. Any cannon or boltthrower - well, actually anything with S6 or above - makes short process of the Steamtank. The important part is that the STanks is not brittle. You need a maximum of four wounds to make him totally useless, and already the first wound will greatly reduce its usability.



One in 36? Even if you hit the Stank on a 2+, it's 1 in 43. At 3+ it's 1 in 54, 4+ 1 in 72.

Even S3 is sufficient to wound the Steamtank. If you add in the chance of actually hitting the tanks then your calculation is correct, though. Once hit, chances are 1:36.


I suck at maths, but even i can tell you're doing poorly.
You are right, my calculation was wrong on one account. I somehow calculated with T7 instead of T6 - that does not make the STank a better choice. A boltthrower has a 50% chance to WOUND a Steamtank. Add in "to hit" on large distance (24-48") and BS3 you get a 25% chance for a wound. Higher BS (eg Elves), less distance or multiple shots (RBT) make the Steamtank a real fragile option for 300 pts.





Two BTs will hit at S6. S6 vs. T6 is a 4+ to wound, a chance of 50%. So if four BTs worth 140 points and 2 Special slots shoot at a Stank at long range, they will on average cause 2 Wounds. By turn 2, the Stank will be in combat, your Outriders have shot the crew, your Pistoliers have charged them and your Pegacaptain too. Also, your Knights did not get shot at, nor did any of your other units. Also, your Stank is still worth 300 VP to you.

In your example you field 300 pts of Steamtank, 100 pts of Pistoliers/Outriders and a 100 pts Pegacaptain against the meagre 140 pts of Boltthrowers. Certainly the additional Knights will escape their attention, but remember that you can still field another 350 pts to handle the Pistoliers, Pegacaptain and the rest of the Steamtank and THEN field something to match the points for the knights. I doubt that they will escape their attention.

If you field comparable forces, the STank is overpriced, or, in other words, not worth the pts you pay for them.




Aside from 100 point RBT's and some magical bows, High/Dark Elves are limited to S3 missile fire.

If you don`t prepare to kill monsters and machines, don`t complain that the targets are too hard. For the cost of one Steamtank Elves can field 3 Repeating Boltthrowers. These will promote the STank to old iron within at most two rounds. There is NO army out there that is not able to wound the odd S6-machine by fire, magic or cc. Theoretically you can, eg, buy 75 Goblin archers for 300pts, who will cause an average of just above one wound when firing on long distance.

From the tactical viewpoint it seems that the Steamtank is in the safest position whenever he is in close combat with low profile troops or small units, though of course any magical weapon might be his bane. So you need to bring him forward, using all available cover to shield him from anything with S6, and then charge a suitable unit when possible. I doubt that this is worth 300 pts. The other usage I see is that of a fire magnet, but that will only work if you have something worthwhile to protect. It might pay off in a knight-heavy army. Perhaps the way to use it should be discussed in a Tactica-thread.


In the 6th edition the Steamtank was overpowered for their money (leave alone the necessary pages of extra rules, who kept me from using it), and to move on from there was necessary. But, as often, GW overdid it in the other direction. The ST now is too fragile for its cost. I liked the 5th edition rules and would have preferred a similar handling for the Steampoints.

I foresay that Steamtanks will not be part of competetive (tournament oriented) Empire armies, though they might still be fun to play (especially against, in this version) occasionally. I will rather field two full units of infantry then a single Steamtank - just as I did in 6th edition.


BTW: While the Steamtank needed downgrading, there was one unit that was undeservedly "nerfed". The good old hunters, with a unitsize of 5 and longbows, now have a minimum size of 10 and keep their common bows, for the same price. That change will hurt the common Empire army far more then the Steamtank rules.

samw
05-01-2007, 15:26
From the tactical viewpoint it seems that the Steamtank is in the safest position whenever he is in close combat with low profile troops or small units, though of course any magical weapon might be his bane. So you need to bring him forward, using all available cover to shield him from anything with S6, and then charge a suitable unit when possible. I doubt that this is worth 300 pts. The other usage I see is that of a fire magnet, but that will only work if you have something worthwhile to protect. It might pay off in a knight-heavy army. Perhaps the way to use it should be discussed in a Tactica-thread.

Um, you mean exactly like a Dragon or a Manticore or a Giant? Guys, this is what the Steamtank is now, and what I always thought it should be, a mechanical monster. People are always saying "I wish I could field my big beastie without having to put my general on the top away from my troops". Well here ya go. As far as I can see if you use it as you would a Giant you won't go far wrong.

Axel
05-01-2007, 16:23
Um, you mean exactly like a Dragon or a Manticore or a Giant? Guys, this is what the Steamtank is now, ...

Actually, yes.
Back in 5th edition I always used it as a mobile cannon, and I have only played it twice or thrice during the whole of the 6th edition. Since Empire does not use monsters (ld7 needs the general in its midst) I am unfamiliar with this specific usage, though I have plenty of experience with killing such threats. This naturally makes ME think that the Steamtank is easy to disable and thus overpriced and useless (as a mobile cannon), but I admit that it might have its usage as a cc-monster.

samw
05-01-2007, 16:51
Actually, yes.
Back in 5th edition I always used it as a mobile cannon, and I have only played it twice or thrice during the whole of the 6th edition. Since Empire does not use monsters (ld7 needs the general in its midst) I am unfamiliar with this specific usage, though I have plenty of experience with killing such threats. This naturally makes ME think that the Steamtank is easy to disable and thus overpriced and useless (as a mobile cannon), but I admit that it might have its usage as a cc-monster.

I think you might have hit the nail on the head there Axel! The non-empire and new empire players on here, many of whom have experience of using big monsters, see the ST as balanced, because they've had the practice dodging and weaving the enemy guns. This is a Giant with an armour save, a Stegadon with unbreakability. The Empire players by contrast, have by and large had experience on the other end, finding ways to neutralise those big targets. In addition, they are the army with the best tools for the job (the Great Cannons). Hence Empire players are considering how easy they would find it to neutralise the threat, as opposed to how easy the bulk of armies in Warhammer would find it. For myself, I think only my Trebuchet would do any real good, and that means I'm not flattening those Greatswords or knights. Chaos, Lizardmen and Undead might have the great-weapon wielding heros, but they're gonna need a unit to back them up unless they want to crumble or start praying for a double 1. The cannon is fluff, like a Dragon's breath weapon or a stegadon's bow, it's what you might let off on your way to combat, not the main function of the unit. It's purpose is to spread Terror and hold up that key enemy unit, because once it's in combat even if you aren't doing anything they still have to kill it. The ST is a monster, far more than it's a warmachine. Adjust your expectations and you may well come to like it. Don't, and I'll be more than willing to pay shipping and handling to my house. :D

Cloud Strife
05-01-2007, 17:08
think I'll through in my two gold crowns (actually that's too much, where's a peasant's final wage :)) on the new empire book and in particular the Stank and the Helblasters.

Well the Stank got made much more simple to play against as it doesn't effectively need its own army book to be brought along with it before you can use it. That and I would say that the previous one was even worse as you had to have good amount of high strength stuff lying around to stand a chance of actually hurting it, and that was before you hit hard... As for the complaints about it being hamstrung from wounds too easily and people comparing that to the monsters consider this - bolt thrower hits dragon and stank. Dragon rips bolt out of itself due to its great strength and carries on, where as stank is left with the missile sitting in it because an engineer won't be able to dislodge it and there is far more vital components in the stank that you can hit that would slow it down - imagine all the pipes that move steam around for example.

So okay the Stank isn't the immense monster of destruction anymore, but at the end of the day most people refused to play in 6th ed unless they had something that was appropriately tooled up to kill it - my armies like Dogs of War and Dark Elves would have really struggled as all they would have would artillery, Knights on the charge and Ogres, the rest of the army couldn't do much and you wouldn't want to put chariots into it either, oh and the Stank is still brilliant at warding off chariots due to the cannon and the ability to cause impact hits to charging chariots, Stegadons, and even Ogres...

For me I think its balanced now, as are the Helblasters. Lets be honest it was a no brainer to take 2 of these things in an Empire army unless you really liked Flagellants, and even then you'd still take 1 along. I mean these things could reduce any unit of 20 something infantry to dust in one shooting phase, and that's if they didn't get the ridiculous misfire roll of a 6. Now they do have their uses as they are extremely good at felling monsters and will rip most normal-sized cavalry units to shreds.

And anyway, I'd be more interested in trying out the Death Rockets in my rare slots as I've always been good at guessing Stone Throwers and Cannons and those things look like they could do some serious damage while still being balanced due to the low chance of actually hitting with them.

I'll agree with people that there is nothing wrong with Empire Infantry (apart from possibly blocks of Halberdiers) and given they went down in price they are even more flexible and useable than before.

Although I am glad to see that they did make IC knights a special choice as it stops the all Cavalry armies from existing so easily as they are now forced to take a few units on OC Knights to fulfil their core slots, and it also allows you to field much more of the elite Knights which gives you a lot more options, if you can handle going to war without the 4 Cannons that tended to accompany the IC baggage train beforehand.

So overall I think that the Empire book has been improved while still keeping to the background of the army.

Commodus Leitdorf
05-01-2007, 17:09
So basically, the arguement as to why the Steam Tank is not worth it boils down to this:

"A Steam Tank at half its wounds has a very good chance of not doing anything due to the way in which you gather steam points. While on the flip side, a Giant at half its wounds will still move and function as normal. Therefore the Steam Tank is too expensive for what it does by comparison to other Monster units"

Have I hit the nail on the head? If so I can can agree with this arguement....not that it really matters as I would rather spend those 300pts on troops anyway.

samw
05-01-2007, 17:31
So basically, the arguement as to why the Steam Tank is not worth it boils down to this:

"A Steam Tank at half its wounds has a very good chance of not doing anything due to the way in which you gather steam points. While on the flip side, a Giant at half its wounds will still move and function as normal. Therefore the Steam Tank is too expensive for what it does by comparison to other Monster units"

Have I hit the nail on the head? If so I can can agree with this arguement....not that it really matters as I would rather spend those 300pts on troops anyway.

That essentially seems to be what the more coherent detractors are saying. I'm saying that the armour save, T6 and unbreakability make up for it. The armour and T6, because the firepower that would reduce a Tank to near-uselessness would kill any other monster outright, so while you can't use it anymore you've actually surrendered fewer VP with half its value. The unbreakability, because unlike any monster bar the Giant you can crash it headlong into the front of an enemy unit and not give a damn for static CR. This if nothing else reduces the time it can be shot at because you don't have to wait for a flank to open up.

I think many of those knocking the Tank wouldn't take a Giant either. I'd say much of it comes down to player mentality. If you gave Skaven, or Orcs or Chaos the Tank as an option they'd snap it up, however it is the very antithesis of the general Empire ethos. It is big, expensive, not particularly reliable, highly destructive in combat, Terror causing and can ignore CR at its leisure. Now if this is what gets you going you wouldn't be playing Empire! But give it a chance guys. Give your legions and blocks a rest and risk it all on a dice roll. Come over to the Dark Side. :p

anarchistica
05-01-2007, 17:39
Even S3 is sufficient to wound the Steamtank. If you add in the chance of actually hitting the tanks then your calculation is correct, though. Once hit, chances are 1:36.
Why would you not add the chance of hitting? :confused:


You are right, my calculation was wrong on one account. I somehow calculated with T7 instead of T6 - that does not make the STank a better choice. A boltthrower has a 50% chance to WOUND a Steamtank. Add in "to hit" on large distance (24-48") and BS3 you get a 25% chance for a wound. Higher BS (eg Elves), less distance or multiple shots (RBT) make the Steamtank a real fragile option for 300 pts.
lol

A Bolt Thrower has a 83,3% chance of wounding any Elven Lord, does that make Elven Lords useless?


In your example you field 300 pts of Steamtank, 100 pts of Pistoliers/Outriders and a 100 pts Pegacaptain against the meagre 140 pts of Boltthrowers. Certainly the additional Knights will escape their attention, but remember that you can still field another 350 pts to handle the Pistoliers, Pegacaptain and the rest of the Steamtank and THEN field something to match the points for the knights. I doubt that they will escape their attention.
I don't think you get the concept of "armies". Maybe you play with single units but over here we play with multiple units working together. ;)


If you field comparable forces, the STank is overpriced, or, in other words, not worth the pts you pay for them.
Ah yes, and Empire Spearmen suck compared to Dark Elf Spearmen.


If you don`t prepare to kill monsters and machines, don`t complain that the targets are too hard. For the cost of one Steamtank Elves can field 3 Repeating Boltthrowers. These will promote the STank to old iron within at most two rounds.
With 2 RBTs (never seen anyone take more than 2) > 2/3 chance of hitting, 1/2 chance of wounding. Less than 1 Wound per turn of shooting, and to really hurt the Stank you need to remove 3 Wounds at the very least. Once it gets into combat it is completely safe, grinding away at D3 S6 hits per SP (it used to be just D3).

Every unit can be dealt with, it's just that some units require special attention, putting them in the "powerful units" category rather than the "paperweight" category 90% of the other units go in.

PS: Since you didn't get the hint the first time: Victory Points.

vorac
05-01-2007, 18:54
I don't think thats it's fair to compare the stank to a monster because the stank only does anything in it's CC phase thats if it generated steam points without malfunctioning, so if we did a 1 on 1 fight with a stegadon i think the stegadon would come out on top, theoretically.

Makarion
05-01-2007, 19:25
BTW: While the Steamtank needed downgrading, there was one unit that was undeservedly "nerfed". The good old hunters, with a unitsize of 5 and longbows, now have a minimum size of 10 and keep their common bows, for the same price. That change will hurt the common Empire army far more then the Steamtank rules.

I recently rekindled my WHFB interest from tentative exploration many years ago, and was going to make a nice oldschool Empire army, with limited artillery, black powder, magic etc. And we got mechanical horses and the longbows taken away :( .

Ah well, I'll just not use the silliness they gave us and rejoice in the units we do have. I wish I could somehow downgrade armour on my knights though, to simulate Knights of the Verdant Field. Who, according to GW authors, are supposed to carry longbows. Ah well :p .

Petey
05-01-2007, 19:48
If there's anything i agree with Axel on in this post, it's the poor old hunters.

I don't mind that they lost their long bows, but why do they cost the same as if they still had them?
I know they can be a good detachment, but really they aren't worth 8 points, or 10 points as scouts, maybe 6 and 8 but not 8 and 10.
And also the damn free companies are still five points, with no light armor, they really need to go down to 4 or get the light armor.

Chiron
05-01-2007, 20:21
Ah well, I'll just not use the silliness they gave us and rejoice in the units we do have. I wish I could somehow downgrade armour on my knights though, to simulate Knights of the Verdant Field. Who, according to GW authors, are supposed to carry longbows. Ah well :p .

use Outriders to stand in?

or make some DOW Cav?


and the lack of a decent cheap infiltrating model is going to be very painful for us, the huntsmen just arent effective enough to take up 100 points of your army

Dwarf Longbeard
05-01-2007, 21:06
I like the new Empire book its well laid out and has plenty of background and there's not really anything wrong with the army list it's basically the same list as last time, even the rocket battery seems alright; won't mention the Mechanical Horse though.
The only problem which I find with it is the range of magic banners available to the regiments seems a bit poor.

As far as the Steam Tank goes all GW seem to have done is give it the rules it used during 3 - 4 - 5th editions the only real difference is that stat wise it has a T6 and 10 wounds instead of the other way around.
The only real change came when it got a new model and someone thought it would be a good idea to let Allessio design the new rules for it and turn it into something completly OTT.

As other people have said the 6th (Allessio version) of the tank was overpowered and with the new release its been brought back into line with everything else in the game and isn't the instant game winner it was, the rules for it are straight forward and it simply requires a bit more thought to use it effectivly now (like everything else in any other army).

Thats My Grumble

Stella Cadente
05-01-2007, 21:13
Just thought I would say, I now want a Steam Tank Paper weight, you`ve all inspired me LOL

Manflayer
05-01-2007, 21:44
I cant see anywhere in the empire book that the steam tank is restricted to 2000 points and above battles. Meaning can have it in say games like 1000 or 1500. If I missed out any writing that says it is restricted then please post to say if im right or not. And anyone know about steam tank variants if they will still be allowed or not? would kinda screw my "old reliable" steam tank :cries:

Shank
06-01-2007, 05:40
Good News... The Steam Tank is not restricted any longer. So you can use it in say, a 1500 point game. Sadly, it only comes with the cannon and steam gun. No more "old reliable, fighting platform etc...

Axel
06-01-2007, 12:27
...Adjust your expectations and you may well come to like it. Don't, and I'll be more than willing to pay shipping and handling to my house. :D

Thanks for the offer :D
But if I ever manage to get my hands on one of the new (6th edition) Steamtanks for a decent price, I will certainly not part with it because of mere rules :-)
I kept my old and trusty war-altar with Volkmar just because it looked good, and voila, just five years later, I can use it again.



For me I think its balanced now, as are the Helblasters. Lets be honest it was a no brainer to take 2 of these things in an Empire army unless you really liked Flagellants, ...

or the almighty Steamtank :angel:



I mean these things could reduce any unit of 20 something infantry to dust in one shooting phase,

The old Helblaster was mainly a psychological weapon. It scared away skirmishers on long range, and all other units on short range. The usual counter to this were several cheap fast units on the flank. And I have seen as many desasters, like blocking with very few shots fired, as spectacular successes. Admittedly these later are remembered best.
Anyway, the new helblaster is fine, too. Its focus has shifted, but I expect to see them often. Perhaps we even get a new model :)



And anyway, I'd be more interested in trying out the Death Rockets in my rare slots
I am also looking forward to using them against horde armies.



A Bolt Thrower has a 83,3% chance of wounding any Elven Lord, does that make Elven Lords useless?

Have you ever tried to hide a Steamtank in or behind a unit?
Do you let your Elven Lord run around being a valid target for all of your opponents shooting?


to really hurt the Stank you need to remove 3 Wounds at the very least. Once it gets into combat it is completely safe, grinding away at D3 S6 hits per SP (it used to be just D3).

If you remove just 2 pts the Steamtank is reduced to safely use 1 Steampoint. If you then fire just the gun (only 2 Steampoints), you have a 1/6 chance to blew the Steamgeneration (-1 wound, no Steam used) and - once you manage to avoid that, still the 1/6 chance to misfire (-1d3 wounds).

You do NOT need three wounds to hurt a Steamtank. Starting with the first you reduce its efficiency. At three wounds it is not hurt but next to useless.



Every unit can be dealt with, it's just that some units require special attention, putting them in the "powerful units" category rather than the "paperweight" category 90% of the other units go in.
PS: Since you didn't get the hint the first time: Victory Points.

Once you managed to get these three wounds in (against T6) the Steamtank can be largely ignored. That will not yield you the victory points (unless the Steamtank tries to act and ultimeately selfdestructs himself in the process), but you only have to fight against the rest of the enemies army.
Admittedly, if you are out for the victory points then the Steamtank with its 10 wounds is hard to kill. It would be stupid to put that as priority while there are still effective units out there to kill.



I cant see anywhere in the empire book that the steam tank is restricted to 2000 points and above battles. Meaning can have it in say games like 1000 or 1500.
Correct, Steamtanks can be used in any games allowing for a rare slot.


And anyone know about steam tank variants if they will still be allowed or not? would kinda screw my "old reliable" steam tank
No variants anymore (for now). This means I cannot use my old 5th edition Tanks anymore without paying for a Steamcannon that I do not use. 6th edition at least allowed for customizing the beasties. I don`t expect to field STanks anyway, and with the new rules I can perhaps field two Hellblaster (and a Hellstorm) without the opponent looking like had just eaten a ripe Harzer.

Varath- Lord Impaler
06-01-2007, 12:52
Hmm i think an Empire Tank rush (while unfluffy) could be fun.

Just sing the ride of the valkyries while moving them

Shank
06-01-2007, 16:43
I do not believe the Steam Tank is done after losing a few wounds. If the tank suffers 3 wounds, you can feel pretty safe using 3 Steam points in your turn (will only malfunction on a 5 or 6). Wanna play real safe, use only 2SP. With 3 SP the tank can still move a very nice 9 inches. With 2 SP, it is as quick as a Dwarf. The point is, don't wait around and get this thing into combat. Get it there by turn 2. Once you are up close to the enemy, you are not going to need 4 or 5 steam points.

PS Stay away from Cannons, High Strength hits and Dwarf armies!!

vcassano
06-01-2007, 20:19
I do not believe the Steam Tank is done after losing a few wounds. If the tank suffers 3 wounds, you can feel pretty safe using 3 Steam points in your turn (will only malfunction on a 5 or 6). Wanna play real safe, use only 2SP. With 3 SP the tank can still move a very nice 9 inches. With 2 SP, it is as quick as a Dwarf. The point is, don't wait around and get this thing into combat. Get it there by turn 2. Once you are up close to the enemy, you are not going to need 4 or 5 steam points.

PS Stay away from Cannons, High Strength hits and Dwarf armies!!

Problem is people are too cautious and think of the risks when they should look at the rewards. A Steam Tank is still a beast, just a bit more fragile and as has been said many times, is now not a crutch.

Onisuzume
07-01-2007, 09:08
It could've been worse...
It could've been turned into the Ravening Hordes Steam Tank. :p

And it seems GW's new fancy to do away with automatic hits, so it'll be just a matter of time before it hits the skaven and Lizardmen.
The way I see it; the hellblaster has become worse at short range and better at long range.

Shank
14-01-2007, 04:08
Well, let me just say, The Tank Has failed ME!! Not once, but twice. I know, if you have been following this thread, I have defended the new tank rules. But in my last 2 games, the tank has failed me (and it never used too). I play in a Fantasy League on Long Island (NY). My first game against Orcs: Goblin bolt throwers put the hurt on it (4 wounds). When I went to charge a unit of Black Orcs, I need only a few inches, so I declared 2 SP. "Don't roll a 5 or 6" I said. I rolled a 6, the Black Orcs charged in their turn. Steam Tank gone. In my second game, victory was mine! Against Bretonnia, I was going to charge my White Wolves (Inner Circle) into the front of a "huge" unit of Knights of the Realm. And charge my Tank (which was a full wounds) into that same units flank. I was far away, so I need at least 5SP. " Don't roll a 6" I said.
I am sure you know what happened. I rolled a 6. Tank stayed put. My White Wolves were not strong enough to break the unit on their own, and broke from combat. So, in this league, I have 1 loss and a draw (which would have been a win if I rolled anything but a 6!!)
The point of all this is.... I don't know.... Damn TANK!!

StormCrow
14-01-2007, 04:30
i have no sympathy for people who line their tanks up against goblin boltthrowers and black orcs....nothing good was going to come of that

the second scenario is just bad luck, doesnt really reflect the poorness of the tank but rather the fickle nature of the game.

As far as i'm concerned a tank in fantasy now is just as scary as it was a few months ago...i mean come on, its a TANK.

Lyinar
14-01-2007, 04:58
And some crazy people would take it because it is insanely dangerous to use...

I am literally including a Helstorm Rocket Battery in my Stirland Rangers for two reasons: one, it fits the theme of having a small number of war machines which aren't likely to be destroyed while hauling them through the forests (which in my case means one Great Cannon and one Helstorm in 2000 points) so that any Greenskin or Beastman fortified encampment can be flattened a bit more easily, and two, for lack of a better term, the "Let's see what happens THIS turn" factor.

If the Steam Tank fit my theme, I'd use it, but it would be a bit hard to use in the backwoods.

If there's one thing I've learned from playing Warhammer Fantasy and 40k, what is statistically likely almost NEVER happens. If you have a chance of something going horribly wrong, roll the bloody dice anyway, you might be surprised. If not, laugh at your little metal and plastic men and insult them for their incompetence. Life's too short to get pissed off and whine about how a unit that used to wipe out entire armies on its own is "a paperweight" because Games Workshop actually put some balancing factors into the gorram thing.

vorac
14-01-2007, 05:44
well Shank what can i say welcome to the club

damiengore
14-01-2007, 12:58
I got to play against my friends STank last week, this is what happened.

He deployed it right in the middle of his battle line even though there was a perfectly position woods on my right flank that would have allowed him to rake my advance and charge into my flank when I got close enough. He did this becuase he wanted to "get more out of the terror". This was probably because he's been on the recieving end of of my giant quite a bit as of late.

On turn one he generated 4 SP's (good thing 2 cause he rolled a 6) and trundled forward and then fired his cannon. He rolled a misfire, boom and the Stank took 3 wounds. In my turn I put a bolt thrower in it and it took another 3 wounds. With it down to 4 it was pretty much exactly what some of you have described, a paper weight. It sat there and slowing imploded.

So vorac I agree the Stank is a paperweight, if you use it like a nit wit and charge it willy nilly in the face of your opponents entire army. BUT when it's at full wounds it is a MONSTER and if it makes contact with something on the move it will either scare it away or obliterate it. My friend was a little disheartened by the "law of reduced returns" when it comes to the Stank but we talked about it and he's gonna give it another go.

Support it properly and don't expect a 300 point model to take on your opponents entire army. It's an unbreakable giant with a 1+ armour save and ranged weaponry for gawdsake!

Really the Stank is the ideal unit because it punishes you for poor usage. Use it well and it could shatter your opponents line, use it like a brainless monkey and it will maybe boil some potatoes for you while it sits idle.

EDIT: Oh and I consider the cannon a bit of a show piece on the tank, it's main purpose is to charge and grind, terrorize and use the steam cannon when it's appropriate. At 2P's to fire the short ranged main gun its a complete waste to use, espcially when there's a 1in6 chance you'll just hurt yourself.