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renevq
30-12-2006, 15:59
Hi. In my group we usually like to play fun, themed armies. With one exception. The local Necron Player has fallen into a pattern of fielding a Lord with res orb and veil of darkness, warriors and 2 monoliths in 1500 piont games which to our chagrin require little to no tactics to do well. So, next week him and some other guy(tyranids-Godzilla army) field 1500pts each vs me (eldar) and two friends (chaos and SM) at 1k points each. So, our gaming group being friends and all,we decided to teach him a lesson. Have at him with the cheesiest possible eldar, CSM and SM armies at 1k points and rid him of his ways. So please, help us with the cheesiest lists you can think of so we can go back to playing fun games.

Pertinax
30-12-2006, 16:06
You know, I think the best way of combating this, is to actually not sink to his level.

Play games, against other people, and have fun. When he isn't getting opponents, then he'll ask why. Then you tell him.

Should help the situation.

hiveminion
30-12-2006, 16:08
With Godzillas and Monoliths, you're looking for as much las/plas as possible, mate. Fast assault units with powerfists/eldar equivalents will be very useful against shooty Fexes and Necron Warriors.
I wouldn't take vehicles. Good Godzilla armies are shooty and Necron weaponry can kill all tanks in the game.
For tactics: target priority! Devilfexes (armed with 2 TL Devourers) are often lightly equipped, but they kill (heavy) infantry at close range. Take them down with heavy weapons.
You could go for a risky tactic and shoot everything at the Monoliths. Though they are the toughest non-forgeworld vehicle around, if you destroy them the Necron army will be far easier to deal with.

Master Jeridian
30-12-2006, 16:08
Aye, teach him a lesson by emulating (copying) his example. That'll show him who's wrong...

UnRiggable
30-12-2006, 16:12
For chaos use thousand sons - Necrons suck against them. For marines I think slappy had a good list - two scouts of five scouts and nine ls tornadoes.

renevq
30-12-2006, 16:20
I know some of you feel its wrong that we 'sink' to his level, but its really frustrating to play against him. However he is a very good friend and we want to keep playing with him. We just want him to feel the same frustration we feel when we play him. He is smart enough that we can get our point across, but we need a graphic example to show him what he is doing. Like "see, this is how we feel when we play agains your army, please change it"

Latro_
30-12-2006, 16:23
a necron army made up mainly of troops and 1/3 pts spend on heavy support...

dont seem all that cheesy to me. Sounds like a normal necron list.

renevq
30-12-2006, 16:26
believe me, it is

Slaaneshi Slave
30-12-2006, 16:32
You mean you can't beat it? :p That doesn't mean its cheesy. Find your local competent Mech SoB player and ask him to give him a dose of Divinely Guided ass kickage.

renevq
30-12-2006, 16:52
Well, no:rolleyes: :rolleyes: We play either assault oriented, or in my case assault/short range mobile. He just sits back behind cover and we think "Long Range Shootout=Boring" and "I'm at least gonna try and do something" so its go forward and get shot. As soon as the Monoliths deep strike its like "Assault marines charge. Win combat. Necrons pass morale. Monolith teleports Necrons away. Marines get caught with member in hand. Gauss Flux Arc, Gauss Flux Arc, Gauss Flayers. Marines Die Banshees Charge Necrons. Banshees win. Necrons pass morale. Lord teleports them away with veil. Banshees left in awkward position. Gauss Flux Arc, Gauss Flux Arc. Banshees die. Deciever closest target to Khorne DP. Khorne DP must charge. Deciever prances away. DP caught with member in hand. Gets shot. Deceiever moves to be closest target to DP." Rinse and repeat. Annoying. We basically get the fun taken away of our fun armies.

Pertinax
30-12-2006, 16:58
I know some of you feel its wrong that we 'sink' to his level, but its really frustrating to play against him. However he is a very good friend and we want to keep playing with him. We just want him to feel the same frustration we feel when we play him. He is smart enough that we can get our point across, but we need a graphic example to show him what he is doing. Like "see, this is how we feel when we play agains your army, please change it"

If he's a good friend, then try to talk to him.

If that doesn't come to fruitation, then play the following.

You play his army, he plays yours. Then see what happens. If you whack your army, then it's a good illustration. If he whacks his, then maybe there is another issue at hand...

ArtificerArmour
30-12-2006, 16:58
So basically your lack of diversity in your lists is his fault?

Slaaneshi Slave
30-12-2006, 17:01
I've never seen Eldar vs Necrons, but I'd imagine Storm Guardians kick Necron ass. What better than a large cheap combat unit for killing them?

The Laughing God
30-12-2006, 17:10
Try to kill all of his warriors first. If you kill them then they will phase out. If you blow up the two monoliths first then that's a lot of points that he just lost. Hope you win the game.;)

renevq
30-12-2006, 17:23
So basically your lack of diversity in your lists is his fault?

No, we've tried enough different builds to see what units are effective and what are fun to play. The three of us have never played the same list twice. However, these are the tendencies towards which we have gravitated and identified as the playing styles we find the most fun. Sadly, this is taken away in our games against necrons. And in his defense, for the most part its NOT his fault, its the codex's. It's too badly thought up. He found a build that wins and stuck with it. A boring build, but a winning one nonetheless. Its his tendency to stick with it that is annoying. I stopped fielding a Falcon with Holo-Field/Spirit stones after I was bitched at for it being cheesy. The Chaos player did the same thing with his Khorne DP with Stature, Speed, Berseker Glaive et al. We just want the same courtesy extended towards us, and we need to give him a reminder of why he should no do so in the future.

azimaith
30-12-2006, 17:41
I'd just tell him your list isn't fun to play against, why don't you try something different.

Since its just a group of friends, you may want to go house rule some of the crappier necron units to make them more effective like pariahs so that it becomes more entertaining. There is no 40k police watching your every game to see if your playing it right. You could play 40k by picking up models and shaking them while yelling: "Pew pew! Your dead!" for all they cared.

Creep
30-12-2006, 17:41
One easy way to remedy the Monoliths is to take a squad of wraithguard in a wave serpent. You say he likes to deepstrike his monoliths? Keep the 'guard in the Serpent, dont tell them whats in there. When he deepstrikes, pop out, and destroy them one by one.

The marine players should focus on the Tyranid list, 1k points Eldar played well can spank Necrons. What I may suggest is focusing all shooting on one unit, to the point where when you charge it, there are only 4-5 men left, and you can kill them easily. Now, Im guessing that he has two squad of 15 warriors each? If this is the case, you need to kill 23 necrons, which really shouldnt be that hard. Take a war walker squadron with dual scatter lasers (if available) and shoot them at the lords squad. Should make for a great number of wounds, especially if you guide the walkers.

You really dont need to use a cheesy list to combat his army, its really not all that bad. Just adapt the way you play to kill as many of his warriors as soon as possible, and if you use wraithguard, you can take his monoliths head on. They can also be used against his deceiver to take him out, too.

Master Jeridian
30-12-2006, 17:46
Have to agree with simply swopping armies for a game. Gives you both a look from the other side.

'Stooping' to his level really doesn't prove anything, except that what he's been doing must be right, since all his friends have started doing the same.

Penitent
30-12-2006, 17:54
While two monoliths in 1500 is a bit of a stretch, the list doesn't sound that bad. Like you said earlier, part of the problem is that the codex is a bit hamstrung for good unit choices and versatility, at least in comparison to other codices. Part of me wants to say its unfair to force him to deviate too much from a list that works. Then again, there *are* some alternatives to a second Monolith: tomb spyders, wraiths, destroyers, immortals...

As for tactics: killing monoliths with wraithcannon is one way to go. A faster way would be to use Swooping Hawks with Intercept. Just make sure you kill the thing, because those Flux Arcs will paste the squad otherwise.

Massed assault units are still your friend, and phase-out really does seem the best way to go. Question: if a Monolith's portal is blocked by opposing units, do any units attempting to teleport through the portal get destroyed?

renevq
30-12-2006, 18:01
Thanks, I thought up a list (in no small part thanks to you all). What do you think?

HQ
Farseer, Guide 75

Elites
5 Wraithguard, Warlock, Singing Spear
Wave Serpent, Shuricannon, Shuricannon, Spirit Stones, Vectored Engines 343

Troops
5 Pathfinders
5 Pathfinders

Heavy Support
2 Warwalkers, 2 Scatter Lasers each 120
5 Dark Reapers, Exarch, Tempest Laucher, Crack Shot 217

Total 995


A faster way would be to use Swooping Hawks with Intercept.
I tried.


Just make sure you kill the thing, because those Flux Arcs will paste the squad otherwise.
They did.

Iron Buddha
30-12-2006, 19:02
"Cheese only begets more cheese." I think some great gamer said that, or maybe I'm just daft....

ZigZagMan
30-12-2006, 19:06
Necrons have a sever weakness to 2+ armor saves. Nothing but phase blades, and heavy destroyers can touch them.
Chaos has the best chance at this, Nurgle terminators, and thousand sons termies are VERY hard.
WraithGuard are also a good choice, although you have to be careful cause of his ordinace. the howling banshee Phoenix lord would do well.
Have the marine player bring a sniper assasin and a libraian and snipe his lord to death

MrGarm13
30-12-2006, 19:33
Thank God. Another person who thinks Necrons are badly thought up. The local Necron player here says it's because we all suck. Seems Necrons are the army to go to if you need a power trip (or your just in general a jerk).

As for your current predicament, I would say have the Space Marine player Drop Pod on the side of the necrons. If they teleport away, have that Khorne Demon Prince fly over and wipe the floor with them.

I'm not familiar with Eldar, so I can't really be all that helpful. But if the lord with Res orbs gone on the other side of the board, bomb them to hell with Str 8, they'll only get one WBB roll contrary to 2. (They can't "Chain Teleport".)

The monoliths can be a pain though. You can shoot under them though since they count as skimmers. (I switched armies with my Necron friend for a game, brought both of them down in CC. Something is fishy about that, extremely.)

Basically, get the Lord away from his warriors, massacre the warriors he left, (he can't take both groups.) Then just have your most nimble stuff hunt them down while your allies take care of the Tyranids.

As you not doubt know there are weaknesses to the Necrons. Quite unfortunate that all of the weaknesses that GW put into the Necrons are easily circumvented by some piece of wargear.

Lack of Mobility. Monolith allows them to move essentially 24 inch's and gives them another WBB. And their favorite Veil of Darkness with a Lord that can take a Lascannon to the face. And still use

Weak in CC: Check the statlines, their Marines. Not only that, they are Marines that get back up. They are not Tau. They do not just fall over dead because you walked up to them and poked them with a stick. Lack of initiative doesn't mean much when they are power armored and have max leadership.

Just be happy he's not going Destroyer heavy.

MrGarm13
30-12-2006, 19:38
While two monoliths in 1500 is a bit of a stretch, the list doesn't sound that bad. Like you said earlier, part of the problem is that the codex is a bit hamstrung for good unit choices and versatility, at least in comparison to other codices. Part of me wants to say its unfair to force him to deviate too much from a list that works. Then again, there *are* some alternatives to a second Monolith: tomb spyders, wraiths, destroyers, immortals...

As for tactics: killing monoliths with wraithcannon is one way to go. A faster way would be to use Swooping Hawks with Intercept. Just make sure you kill the thing, because those Flux Arcs will paste the squad otherwise.

Massed assault units are still your friend, and phase-out really does seem the best way to go. Question: if a Monolith's portal is blocked by opposing units, do any units attempting to teleport through the portal get destroyed?

Blocking the exit sounds like a good idea, but since it's a skimmer, I think it can just float over. Or maybe I'm wrong. Been a while since I played, but you'd need something to be able to stand up to 12 potential shots of Gauss fire.

xibo
30-12-2006, 20:12
fire prism tanks are realy tuned with the new codex. and if you get two of them... you know already. Also try out the fire dragons or whoever has the meltas as it will instakill those tin'eads without armour saves... and hey you can wound the monolith!
For Chaos... well we all know what chaos list has the potential to field 16 tankhunting autocannons plus raptors and other cuties, or the traditional 4 pieplates and loads of oblits...
Marines... well the asscannon is what makes the wulf guards bears grow ;)

Also, if you have the models... imagine how many (storm) guardians one can take at 1000 points!

Some guy (UK)
30-12-2006, 20:16
I don't know if someone has said this, but why not try #shock horror# talking to him about it?
It could save you lots of hassle.

Slaaneshi Slave
30-12-2006, 20:24
Also, if you have the models... imagine how many (storm) guardians one can take at 1000 points!

I now want an army of 120 Storm Guardians and a 40pt HQ... Damn you! :p

Morgrad
30-12-2006, 20:41
I agree that the list doesn't sound cheesy. Unimaginative? Sure - but also easy as hell to beat.

2 monoliths and an expensive lord in 1500 points means one thing: not very many necrons. Going for phase-out is definately the way to go.

Team games make for broken games. Necrons and Tyranids are a *nasty* combination - far nastier than either one on its own. All of the negatives of taking Necrons are countered by the Tyranids - mass troops, good h2h skills - which you shouldn't have to face when fighting necrons - which have great shooting and vehicle-killing ability - which you shouldn't have to face when up against Tyranids.

So... play 1v1 games most of the time. They're much more balanced and more fun. Definately play some games where you play vs. an opponent, then you switch armies and play again. It's a lot of fun and will teach you more about your opponents army than playing against them ever will.

My suggestions: ignore the monoliths and go for phase-out. If you insist on playing team-games and he has his Tyranid friend, then consider this: there is no way 25 necrons should be able to survive 3000 points of concentrated fire in one turn. Ignore the 'nids, phase the necrons, then kill the 'nids.

Marines should have lascannons and plasma, eldar should have starcannons, etc. Just bring anything that ignores a 3+ armour save and shove it all down the necron player's throat at the earliest opportunity, preferably from range. Close-combat is lovely against necrons, but with 2 'liths you'll never get to finish off a squad, so don't bother.

Although I dislike playing against necrons with my tyranids, they're easy prey. They have just an awful time taking out any sort of MC, and a psychic choir means they break and get run down very easily, which means no standing back up for them!

So - don't cheese him, 'cause he's not being cheesy. Just slap his list around like the phase-out susceptible mistake that it is, then he'll vary it up a bit, which means you'll have to vary yours up again, and it'll be the constant give-and-take that makes playing the same opponent over and over so much fun.

Remember, when playing against Necrons, your entire army should be designed to phase him out. Screw monoliths - they're not very scary when they're being packed in a box with the rest of his army.

Frodo34x
30-12-2006, 20:44
You know, I think the best way of combating this, is to actually not sink to his level.

Play games, against other people, and have fun. When he isn't getting opponents, then he'll ask why. Then you tell him.

Should help the situation.
QFT. Pertinax has the right way just there.

Gensuke626
30-12-2006, 20:45
Rene...I think you're too obsessed with the Cheese...I mean seriously...
You Stopped taking a Falcon with Spirit Stones and A Holofield because your friends said it was too cheesy? Your Friend gave up what is almost (In my Oppinion) a perfect DP build because someone said it's cheesy? I think you're all being silly.

I mean, what happens if someone comes along with an IGuard Artillery build? Or worse, my friend's Light Drop Brigade (Infiltrating Lascannon, Mortar and Heavy Bolter Teams supported by 2 drop platoons and 2 melta heavy vet squads...and he's considering taking sentinels too.)

Seriously, I think it's not your friend who's wrong for taking a force composition that's hard to beat, I think it's your fault for giving up on trying to redesign your lists.

You're eldar right? In my estimation, Eldar can easily beat Necrons if you take Falcons with holofeilds and spirit stones. Take them as gun platforms first and as troop transport secondary role, and for those troops throw in something that will mow down huge swathes of necron lines. For a 6 man team, I'd go with 5 dragons and an exarch with Crackshot and a Dragon's breath. Ignore the Monoliths entirely since your flacons can out manuever the enitre aremy and run rings around the black towers. Kit out for infantry killing and drop 75% of his army. Go Mechanized, since your army has the MOST Reliable Transports in the game. Period.

Tell your Chaos friend to take the Berzerker glaive prince and Never let it go.

There's just something wrong in my mind with the idea that you and your friends complain about eachother's lists and then you intentionally shoot yourself in the foot. Where I play, when cheese appears on the board, no one appologizes. No oneshoots themselves in the foot. We look at what we're facing and we look for ways to counter it, once we find a solution, we go back to our lives in general.

Slaaneshi Slave
30-12-2006, 20:50
Where I play, when cheese appears on the board, no one appologizes. No oneshoots themselves in the foot. We look at what we're facing and we look for ways to counter it, once we find a solution, we go back to our lives in general.

Where I play, when cheese appears on the board I throw Daemonettes at it! :p

Gandhi
30-12-2006, 20:52
I don't see what's so bad about his list... If it lacks troops why not just take a mass ammount of AP3 weapons and focus fire on his troops. If you ignore, or perhaps sacrifice some units to keep his Monoliths off your AP3 weapons then you could just force a phase out.

Gensuke626
30-12-2006, 20:55
Where I play, when cheese appears on the board I throw Daemonettes at it! :p

Cheese in general or only Eldar cheese?

I mean with slaanesh I think it could be either but that's just cause I imagine the Keeper of Secrets opening put a warp hole then shoving guardians into it while yelling "I've got candy in my Van! Just step into this hole!"

xibo
30-12-2006, 20:57
Where I play, when cheese appears on the board I throw Daemonettes at it! :p
"There isn't a problem that can't be solved by massed heavy flamers" lady inquistor :P

Sick
30-12-2006, 21:01
I pretty much agree with Pertinax in everything that is outside the tabletop.
You know....social stuff....being friends and telling them what you think.

Otherwise.
That list is not cheesy at all. Or if you think so you certainly havent tasted real good cheese in your life.
Wraithguard can eat Monoliths in no time but I think two words can solve the whole problem and end your misery:

Phase out.

The Keeper of Secrets
30-12-2006, 21:01
Dark reapers are a must. 2 AP3 shots each at S5, that'll show 'im!
Also 2 fire prisms, this gives you (when combined) a S6 AP3 large blast template :eek: , which will rape his 'crons

Nehcrum
30-12-2006, 21:05
If the guy wants to play shooty, then play shooty against him.
Necron are resilient, but they are expensive.

Phase out is a good tactic, concentrate on the necron special rule units, kill those off and phase out that monolith.

Here's a tip for the CSM player, straight out of the IW is cheese thread

Uber Daemon Prince
3xOblits
3xOblits
3xOblits
5xIW's- deck chairs. Lascannon
5xIW's- deck chairs. Lascannon
Predator- Twin-lascannon, heavy bolters.
Predator
Predator
Basilisk


Since this guy is necron which are good against vehicles. tone down on the predators, maybe take a vindicator instead....that demolisher cannon kills necrons like no tomorrow. Same thing with the basilisk, AP3 means no save for necron warriors and S9 means necron warriors does not get a "we'll be back" save. Use those pie-plates on his 2 warrior units (that is the minimum he must take, and is probably about half of his necron special rule units which you wanna kill to force a phase-out).

Obliterators are very resilient, T5 with 2 wounds. Necron got nothing that can insta-kill them, and nothing that can knock through their 2+ save.

Just stand at a distance and rain las on him, if he goes within rapid fire range, just rapid-fire back at him with twin-linked plasma (and engage him in CC, oblits with T5 and 2+ save won't take many losses from necron warriors, and their powerfists will mow the warriors down).

Edit: Defiler is a good choice too. Battle cannon does the same as the basilisk. And it can attack a warrior squad in HtH and lock it up and grind it down, if it comes too close (within rapid-fire range).

Have the SM be lots of 6-man las/plas squads. Will outshoot his necrons at long range, and at close range that plasma is gonna hurt him more than his gauss flayers will hurt you.

As for Eldars....stick a unit of swooping hawks in there. Intercept and haywire grenades are great against a monolith.....and their guns will be good against gaunts. Other than that, have the standard skimmer tanks, and scorps as counter-assault if the tyranids comes up close, while the SM and CSM concentrates on heavy long-range fire (which will mean that MCs and synapse-creatures shouldn't be a big problem).

Pertinax
30-12-2006, 21:12
QFT. Pertinax has the right way just there.


I pretty much agree with Pertinax in everything that is outside the tabletop.
You know....social stuff....being friends and telling them what you think.


Thank you! I'm glad somebody else sees it that way!

IJW
30-12-2006, 21:13
which will rape his 'crons
Runs away, screaming in horror at the nasty mental images...


Obliterators are very resilient, T5 with 2 wounds. Necron got nothing that can insta-kill them, and nothing that can knock through their 2+ save.
They are not T5 but T4(5) - Heavy Gauss Cannon will not only instakill them but defeat their armour save at the same time, while the Particle Whip will instakill them but have trouble with the armour save.

Angelus Mortis
30-12-2006, 21:16
IMHO, Daemonhunters are the best anit-Necron army out there. Nothing pisses him off more than Callidus taking out his Lord with the Orb followed up by a LRC dropping 8 very pissed off GK Terminators right up the middle and into the assault. Season with Holocaust for taste.

That being said, if you want to do it with Space Marines 3x Vindicators can do a 1st turn phase out.

IJW
30-12-2006, 21:17
Mind War for the Farseer can also be amusing (if unpredictable) against the Necron Lord.

xibo
30-12-2006, 21:26
Tell your marine ally to take an inquisitor with purgatus ( -3 to his lords' ld ), and cast mindwar on him right after that just for well... fun!

IJW
30-12-2006, 21:30
Ouch, that's just nasty!

Nehcrum
30-12-2006, 21:31
They are not T5 but T4(5) - Heavy Gauss Cannon will not only instakill them but defeat their armour save at the same time, while the Particle Whip will instakill them but have trouble with the armour save.
Hmm, damn, must have an old chaos codex then. It says in it that they are T5, and that they have the daemon armor and daemonic aura upgrades (2+ armor and 5+ inv save). Nothing about being T4(5).

Edit: Yep, old codex, reference sheet on GW says T4(5) as well.

Master Jeridian
30-12-2006, 22:31
Aye, lesson I should have learnt with the Chaos Codex- never buy the first printing- there are glaring mistakes a blind chimp could spot.

Like Thralls having 3 wounds.......but only Toughness 1. Amazingly, fewer people argue against this being corrected than the Oblits toughness issue- call me cynical.

Predator101
31-12-2006, 02:08
I'm the SM player. We're all relatively new to the WH40K universe, and while we all try out different armies to see what works and how it works the Necron Player always uses the same army. And while we let certain small things go (for example a 1 milimeter distance that wouldn't let him assault or rapid fire, or certain mishaps) He's always quick to point out the same things when he'd be on the receiving end. Just the other day I was in CC with the 'Nid and my 2 terminators did quite a few wounds he immediately said that I hadn't specified who I was attacking and I should therefore roll to randomely determine who I was attacking (while any other player would have asked me who I was attacking beforehand) luckily I didn't get frustrated cause the 'Nid player said that I would obviously use a Terminator unit to attack the biggest threat, so he removed the models from those. As for those who say it isn't cheesy, listen to this. After the game we stepped out for a cigarette and we were talking about how many points we took. I was the worst w/1093 points lost, then the Eldar w/800 (give or take 50), then the 'Nid w/550 (give or take 50) then he walks over and says 'I lost about 18 points' WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT PICTURE??? And no we are not that weak a set of players, we concentrated fire on him. So we decided to show him what happens when we stomp him. We just want to have fun, but He's a friend so we don't want to shut him out of the games. We just want him to see that such a frustrating Army list is annoying.

Whoo... That felt good, thanx for listening, I'll be here all week.

Slaaneshi Slave
31-12-2006, 02:12
6 man las/plas squads will kill 3 or 4 Necrons a turn at 24 inches. If you take 4 of these you can probably wipe out a squad every turn. That will probably make him phase out before his tombs even arrive (if he is deep striking them).

azimaith
31-12-2006, 02:13
Dark reapers are a must. 2 AP3 shots each at S5, that'll show 'im!

Yes, how dare he take an effective list with a crappy phase out number and only 2 weapons with an AP under 5. Shame on him. With crons its either lots of warriors or lots of destroyers and thats about it. Some variations work alright, but they aren't near as good.

buzzin_yoof
31-12-2006, 03:03
I'm the SM player. We're all relatively new to the WH40K universe, and while we all try out different armies to see what works and how it works the Necron Player always uses the same army.


The three of us have never played the same list twice.


These quotes sum up what is wrong here. Necrons with 2 monoliths and a lord in 1500 pts are not very difficult to beat.

Maybe instead of moaning about his list you should think about what you are doing with yours. Maybe you should try settling on a list and thinking of different ways to use it - "oh no - i lost - my list must be crap". If games were purely won or lost on picking a list it would be a pointless game.

You have identified one or two tactics you have tried that did not work. Good. Now keep thinking. You have to think of more ways to use what you have.



Since you are all "relatively new" I will give you some additional free advice. Multi player games are usually rubbish and unbalanced. Fun once in a while but you can get combos that weren't meant to be together. Split up and play one on one games for a while. You will probably find it more satisfying and more balanced.

crossorion
31-12-2006, 03:15
Strength 10 Fireprism shot that pretty much outranges everything in his army?

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
31-12-2006, 05:34
Just tell him, in a calm voice, exactly what you want him to change and why. Then punch him directly in the throat. He'll either change the list, move away, or pass out and die. Either way, problem solved. The U.S. Marine way.

MrLiy
31-12-2006, 07:07
I would try to outshoot all his warriors in one turn

scatter laser warwalkers...
dark reapers...
maybe Dire Avengers

Maybe two prisms?

cause enough casualties in his warriors and he'll phase out...

I dont feel like going to my car to go get my eldar codex, but I'll do the math for some of the shooty options tommorow morning...

NightLord
31-12-2006, 07:34
Brilliant idea... Shoot his warriors... Dont shoot his monoliths. He will phase out... That is simple... Not cheese at all.

Sekhmet
31-12-2006, 07:55
You do realize that by taking a "cheesy"/competitive list, you may create a sort of arms race, right? If you do pull off a victory by your cheesy list strategy, he may actually field a good necron force and then what? You field a copy/pasted army from a GT? Then he does the same?

No, his army is not that great, it just takes advantage of the fact that not many people know how to deal with it. The key is actually the monoliths first, if you can reasonably take them down. If you just go for the warriors, they'll make massive, rerollable WBB rolls. And in the end you accomplish nothing.

I'd take 2 prisms, hawks, reapers, something fast and closecombat oriented like an autarch on a bike to kill his lord. That's all you really need.

Predator101
31-12-2006, 07:58
These quotes sum up what is wrong here. Necrons with 2 monoliths and a lord in 1500 pts are not very difficult to beat.

Maybe instead of moaning about his list you should think about what you are doing with yours. Maybe you should try settling on a list and thinking of different ways to use it - "oh no - i lost - my list must be crap". If games were purely won or lost on picking a list it would be a pointless game.

You have identified one or two tactics you have tried that did not work. Good. Now keep thinking. You have to think of more ways to use what you have.



Since you are all "relatively new" I will give you some additional free advice. Multi player games are usually rubbish and unbalanced. Fun once in a while but you can get combos that weren't meant to be together. Split up and play one on one games for a while. You will probably find it more satisfying and more balanced.

I appreciate the advice but it's a bit more complicated than that, we tend to be a bit strapped for time, so when we do get together, we only have 1 gaming table and only enough time to play 1 game, since it's on wednesdays and late at night. So unless we wanna be ******** and tell the others that they can only watch that nights game, we pretty much have to play in groups.

And the reason why we don't play the same list twice is because as we play (usually with Proxys) we figure out which miniatures we like so we don't buy stuff that ends up being useless to us. Especially considering that we are basically a group of 5 to 7 players. In the Country. It's all ordered online and it's a real hassle (at least compared to the US or UK) to get stuff. So the more we vary the more we learn about our armies and the more variation we have in our games.

The most fun we've had playing 40K has been in very Chaotic Warzone style games where everyone moves forward and dukes it out. Of course we could beat him just sitting on the edge of the table and shooting off, but then it's basically us playing dice. Which is why next time that's what we'll do. We want him to see how boring it is when the other guy just sits and waits. Especially considering that his army should be the one coming after us.

Frodo34x
31-12-2006, 10:59
Thank you! I'm glad somebody else sees it that way!
I spent along time on the Wizards of the Coast DnD boards. After a while, you notice that the answer to 90% of conflicts is "talk to your wife/player/DM"

mistformsquirrel
31-12-2006, 13:01
I appreciate the advice but it's a bit more complicated than that, we tend to be a bit strapped for time, so when we do get together, we only have 1 gaming table and only enough time to play 1 game, since it's on wednesdays and late at night. So unless we wanna be ******** and tell the others that they can only watch that nights game, we pretty much have to play in groups.

And the reason why we don't play the same list twice is because as we play (usually with Proxys) we figure out which miniatures we like so we don't buy stuff that ends up being useless to us. Especially considering that we are basically a group of 5 to 7 players. In the Country. It's all ordered online and it's a real hassle (at least compared to the US or UK) to get stuff. So the more we vary the more we learn about our armies and the more variation we have in our games.

The most fun we've had playing 40K has been in very Chaotic Warzone style games where everyone moves forward and dukes it out. Of course we could beat him just sitting on the edge of the table and shooting off, but then it's basically us playing dice. Which is why next time that's what we'll do. We want him to see how boring it is when the other guy just sits and waits. Especially considering that his army should be the one coming after us.

I'm not honestly seeing much cheese at all in his list.

First off: This is 40k, not fantasy; while assault is a perfectly valid option - so is shooting. It's supposed to be, because its a rare science fiction game where swords and axes trump machine guns and laser cannons ya know?

Also - where are you getting "He should be comming after us" from?

You've got to play smart - use terrain (if you're not using terrain, that's a big chunk of the problem I think); make him have to come to you, you can't just run out there and expect to walk all over him.

Shooting is a critical part of this game - so make sure, even if you go assault oriented, you have at least some capacity to blast away at him, preferably with AP2/3 weapons like Plasma and Lascannons, or perhaps use a Vindicator or other ordinance lobbing tank. (Be careful, keep it behind terrain, then roll out from behind it and let it go)

The monoliths themselves can be either totally ignored, or, as a Space Marine player, you have one of the best solutions imho:

Predator Annihilator with Lascannon sponsons. 1 TL Lascannon and 2 regular lascannons, 3 Str 9 hits, none of which rely on adding dice to penetrate armor (unlike say, the assault cannon or chainfist or melta weapons).

This assuming you don't just phase out his troops.

But again - you have to play smart; the key is to combine shooting and assault. Failure to utilize one or the other will result in an army that gets viciously smashed against some opponents.

That's just what I'm seeing anyway.

Venomizer
31-12-2006, 13:09
I don't see where the 'cheese' is coming from - it looks like the typical 'warrior-horde' Necron army

how to stop it?, use cover yourself, load up on krak missiles, lascannons & plasma & blast the warriors away

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
31-12-2006, 13:20
first gang on 'crons and force them to phase out simple :)

toxic_wisdom
31-12-2006, 15:08
I can imagine his list might look something like this:

Lord with Veil and Orb
Monolith x2
Warrior x15
Warrior x15
Warrior x15

Of course there could some variation in the Warrior count to allow for Scab Swarms ( with Disruption Fields )

I hate tell you this, but it isn't a cheese list. Actually it fits there fluff perfectly. And for Necrons its one of the more balanced and tactically effective lists.

Gaebriel
31-12-2006, 15:26
If he is like any cheeser I have known, he will use your action as justification to cheese up even more. Most people who cheese are afraid of loosing, and they'll get paranoid if fed their own medicine. Not playing them is the better strategy.

rob_alderman
31-12-2006, 15:44
GW prposely made necrons hard, for the phasing out rule. Get loads of Bright lances and las-cannons. Smash apart his Monoliths then shoot up his warriors, keep an eye out on how many points you have killed.
Take a cheap leader, then boost your armies full of heavies. So for marines, a cheap leader *shrugs* Its up to you which, 2 squads of scouts with the cheapest options they can get (no upgrade). Then take loads of devastators and a predator annihlator. Ta-da Beardiness ensues.

The Keeper of Secrets
31-12-2006, 15:51
Get loads of Bright lances and las-cannons.

The problem with bright lances is that their "lance" special rule (counts all armour as 12 max) won't work against the monolith, as it's special rule, "living metal", means that such weapons that count the armour as less than it really is do not have effect against the monolith.

You'd be better off with two fire prisms combining a focussed shot (S10 AP1), the AP1 ensuring that all glancing hits count as penetrating hits.

Angelwing
31-12-2006, 18:17
how about suggesting you swap armies for that gaming session?

Gensuke626
31-12-2006, 21:53
And the reason why we don't play the same list twice is because as we play (usually with Proxys) we figure out which miniatures we like so we don't buy stuff that ends up being useless to us. Especially considering that we are basically a group of 5 to 7 players. In the Country. It's all ordered online and it's a real hassle (at least compared to the US or UK) to get stuff. So the more we vary the more we learn about our armies and the more variation we have in our games.


See, this is a Good idea. I do it myself too...but lately you know...it's been more rewarding to make a take all comers list and stick with it so I can learn the ins and out s of my units and figure out all the dirty tricks I'm capable of exploiting. Variety is all well and good, but then again, so is Chess, Go and Othello. Just in a different way...



The most fun we've had playing 40K has been in very Chaotic Warzone style games where everyone moves forward and dukes it out.


Ahh, an Orky Paradise if I ever heard of one.



Of course we could beat him just sitting on the edge of the table and shooting off, but then it's basically us playing dice. Which is why next time that's what we'll do. We want him to see how boring it is when the other guy just sits and waits. Especially considering that his army should be the one coming after us.

HAHAHAHA! :D
Do you guys honestly believe that? Oh Lordy lord...you must have NEVER played against an Imperial Guard army. or a Tau army. That's really funny...

Saying that shooting is just dicing off implies that you have no terrain so that all weapons have clear sightlines to all targets. Look into getting area terrain for your games. Sure you may get a tad bored when the guns open up and drill your lines, (IGuard are notorious for the 30 minute shooting phase...And I've been on the recieveing end of it many times before) but this is necrons. If he stands and shoots he takes all of what? 2 minutes to do both particle whips then turns it over to assault?

The more I read into this the more I support your Necron friend for finding a good list and sticking with it. I agree to the idea that you guys need to try to get in 1 on 1 games, but lacking that, you need to redo your lists. Does the necron player sit back and bombard your troops to hell and back again? Use SPEED to deter him. You're a marine player...there's this little option called Drop Pod Assault. Consider using it, especially if the Flux Arcs need LoS to find their targets (Drop pods are vehicles...so as long as they're active, they completely block LoS.)

Tell your Eldar buddy to stop worrying about being cheesy and to take the Falcon with a Holofield and Spirit Stones. I had one back in the Last edition of the codex, I had a falcon survive for 2 whole turns while within rapid fire range of a couple squads of Necron Warriors ( I think it was 3 squads of warriors). I even tankshocked some of the little blighters.

Gah, I'm ranting and I'm not painting orks Like i'm supposed to be, but the point is, You guys are basically being Lame. I mean that in the best possible way. Like I've said before, you have an unrealistic view of the game from my point of view. You think that as soon as something is deemed cheesy by the group it should be outlawed. When the 'Offending' party continues to use it, you get upset. That is silly in the extreme. Don't get upset, Problem solve.

Eldar? Fire Prisms and Falcons. Fire Dragons maybe. Stay fast, stay mobile.

Marines? Consider Drop Pod Assault, or a limited Rhino Rush.

Chaos? Khorne Berzerkers and an uber Demon Prince. Or better yet, take some Khorne Bikers and bind a Blood Thirster into the Aspiring Champion. Make sure you give him Demonic chains though, so the demon will appear when you want it to (I hope). Yeah...Khorne Demon Bomb, drop letters and a thirster on the Necron's head, that'll be one dead necron force since the letters will make short work of any warrior squad. If you didn't play Khorne, I'd suggest Tzeentch. Nothing smells like roasting necrons like a squad of chosen all armed with bolt of Change (Or if you're feeling lucky, gift of chaos...Imagine the carnage if you could actually change 3 or 4 warriors per turn into Chaos Spawn...ohhh....it'd be so sweet....)

Curses I got into monologueing again...take care anti-necron boyz. Remember...It's really not his fault that you can't come up with creative ways to defeat him.

buzzin_yoof
01-01-2007, 03:45
Your response to me is crap. Playing with proxys gives you no excuse, and if your "friend" is being fun then your games will be good. Otherwise you should talk to your "friend" who seems to be a ****.

Holy Crap! Manticores!
01-01-2007, 08:19
If by "Godzilla", you mean a few TMC's with a brood or two, then you might not go as far as cheesy 1k lists as much as getting a plan to combine forces. I'd say tool up two allies and shoott the Nids to bits early and then combine on the Necrons.

MrLiy
01-01-2007, 09:08
Meh I still think you should shoot, and shoot, and shoot, and then use the marines to protect your shooty eldar. Sorry still havent gotten to doing that math...

Mr_Smiley
01-01-2007, 09:17
You don't have to be super cheesy to defeat Necrons, its called Terminators, take lots of them, Necrons hate 2+ saves and when they carry around assault cannons it makes them even more anti-necron units.

I also agree that the Necron player isn't being cheesy, I think you guys are being a little inflexible and a bit sore that you are getting beaten a bit.

John Vaughan
08-01-2007, 23:18
Muahahaha!!! Starcannon him to death!!! As for SM, Plasma cannon him to death!!!

THE CHIEF
08-01-2007, 23:42
ok for marines, definitely a speeder list (three squadrons of 2- opponents need to take out both to get any vps) with a predator annihilator, 2 minimum scouts and a leader of some sort (if you're blood angels even better...a chaplain and a free retinue of death company with jump packs!) = cheese. ravenwing is even better if you have an army to hand.

chaos probably terminator heavy. death guard are toughness 5, thousand sons have two wounds. thats hard!

dunno about eldar thats not my thing.

i personally quite like playing necrons, and there are a few competitive players at my club who i play from time to time. they are not that bad IMO, but i just go for phase out all the time. asscannons and 2+ saves on my deathwing soon sort necrons out.

konate
09-01-2007, 01:51
Well, renevq...

I assume you've already played. How'd the game go?