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FatOlaf
31-12-2006, 15:33
Having just started with the new Empire army and having never fired or faced a mortar before, I was just hoping you lot could clarify something for me.

As the RAW I understand that you never actually measure your mortar shot, only if it scatters do you measure that distance.
However it says you have to guess the distance between 12 and 48 inches, how is this followed, what is stopping you from shooting further or nearer?
Also do you have to state to your opponent how far your estimate is and if so why and what is the point.
It seems clear yet confusing :confused:

:wtf: is going on?

DeathlessDraich
31-12-2006, 16:26
Same estimating/scatter/measure regime as a stone thrower unless mortar rules have changed.

Select model in the target to determine direction
Estimate distance and state it then measure.
Scatter and Artillery and keep your fingers crossed:p. Measure again

Crispus
31-12-2006, 16:36
I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but you do measure the distance the shot is fired. It's just that you have to first guess how far away from the mortar model the shot will land.

As DeathlessDraich writes:
First choose in wich direction the mortar shot is fired. This is easiest done by determining the direction by nominating a target model (wich has to visible to the mortar).

Then you guess how far the shot should be fired. Measure to see where it lands. Roll scatter+artillery dice and measure again where it scatters (if it does). Deliberately guessing further than the intended target to hit something else is really bad sportmanship.

Remember to guess with all guessweapons before measuring.

Neknoh
31-12-2006, 16:43
Nominate direction
Say how far it will go in that direction, between 12 and 48"
Mark the spot where it would land (if you say 14 inch, then you measure up 14 inch in that direction and place a marker)
Roll Artillery and Scatter-dice
Move marker according to artillery and scatterdice
Place template centred over marker

crossorion
31-12-2006, 16:56
However it says you have to guess the distance between 12 and 48 inches, how is this followed, what is stopping you from shooting further or nearer?
Also do you have to state to your opponent how far your estimate is and if so why and what is the point.

The line saying you have to guess between 12'' to 48'' is the line that stops you from shooting further or nearer, although scatter may take that distance a bit longer.

You tell your opponent how far you are going to shoot, otherwise how else would he know that your not simply measuring out the unit and declared that this is the amount you have guessed in your head? :/

You do measure your mortar shot, but only after you have guessed with it. Note that it fires only after you have made all guesses for all warmachines, like cannons or other mortars.

Griefbringer
31-12-2006, 16:57
Deliberately guessing further than the intended target to hit something else is really bad sportmanship.


At least, unless they have changed slightly the mortar rules in the new Empire book - back in the 6th edition over-guessing was evil with mortars, but acceptable with stone-throwers (according to an article by Gav).

As for deliberately under-guessing, I see few situations where that would be of any benefit, unless the terrain on the table features some weird holes where units could hide up.

alextroy
31-12-2006, 17:06
Remember that in 7th Edition you need to nominate a target model that the warmachine can see, not just a direction. The guess distance should be about the middle rank of the unit of the model your shooting at for a stonethrower or mortar.

As for over-guessing and under-guessing, they should not be done to "target" a different unit. I would find that in the same vein as declaring charges that will obviously fail, which the FAQ calls "cheating". Doing so to prevent your shot from scattering into your own units would be more acceptable.

FatOlaf
31-12-2006, 17:43
Nominate direction
Say how far it will go in that direction, between 12 and 48"
Mark the spot where it would land (if you say 14 inch, then you measure up 14 inch in that direction and place a marker)



Thanks, three of you all said pretty much the same thing, my problem however is unlike the rules for a stone thrower, the rules for the Mortar never actually state that you measure your guessed shot, this is what is confusing me. Does 7th BRB actually say different to the new empire book mortar rules, I just cant find it anywhere?
Or is this simply a generic war machine rule when using guestimate weapons?

DeathlessDraich
31-12-2006, 18:38
7th Brb does state "measure after guessing" for Stone throwers.
I think in the 6th Empire it might not have stated you have to measure for Mortars but definitely implied it. As for the 7th Empire - I've only had a cursory look.
However Fat Olaf, I can't see how you can Scatter correctly or fairly if the guessed distance was not measured

FatOlaf
02-01-2007, 13:22
However Fat Olaf, I can't see how you can Scatter correctly or fairly if the guessed distance was not measured

It says to measure from the spot where you have initially aimed, this is the only time it tells you to actually measure. I have read the 6th Ed army book as well and it's nigh on exactly the same and saying it implies it is not good enough, surely it would state it implicitly. I agree that it would most likely follow the same rules as a stone thrower but why then does it get it's own rules blurb in the army book and no mention of this? :confused:

Festus
02-01-2007, 14:02
Hi

You do not guess a spot on the tabletop (this is impossible, as you simply can point to it :rolleyes:), but you guess the range, ie. the distance of any given spot to the machine firing.

So if you guess 18", this is the distance from the firing machine that you will have to measure...

...at the end of this distance there will be a spot on the tt (hopefully close to where you wanted to shoot in the first place), and then you will scatter (or not, depending on the dice) from there.

Festus

FatOlaf
02-01-2007, 14:10
Hi

You do not guess a spot on the tabletop (this is impossible, as you simply can point to it :rolleyes:), but you guess the range, ie. the distance of any given spot to the machine firing.

So if you guess 18", this is the distance from the firing machine that you will have to measure..

Festus


I realise that Festus, it tells you to guess a range but then never actually tells you to then measure it, that's the wierd part.
So then it becomes almost like you can just pick a spot, if you go as RAW.

Krankenstein
02-01-2007, 15:39
This sounds like a semantic issue of some sort. FatOlaf, would it be too much to ask for if you could quote the specific text in the mortar rules?

Crazy Harborc
02-01-2007, 21:00
Um....since you are required to announce outloud how far you are guessing. How else would you determine the landing point according to your announced distance guess? You have to know that point so you can do the random direction roll from the landing point.;)

FatOlaf
04-01-2007, 17:04
Um....since you are required to announce outloud how far you are guessing. How else would you determine the landing point according to your announced distance guess? You have to know that point so you can do the random direction roll from the landing point.;)

I know that's that's the wierd part, it does not say that though unlike all the other war machines.

The mortar rules are as so:
"Pivot the mortar so it is pointing in the direction you wish to fire and the crew can see the target. Declare how far you want to fire the mortar shell, without measuring, and guessing the range as accurately as you can. You must guess a distance of between 12" and 48". After guessing, place the centre of the large 5" template over the spot you have guessed. To see where the shell lands roll both the scatter dice and the artillery dice. If the scatter dice rolls a HIT the the shell lands exactly on target"

At this point you would have thought you would be then told to measure what you guessed?

It continues:
" If the scatter dice rolls an arrow then the shell veers off in the direction of the arrow. If you roll a number on the artillery dice, this is the distance in inches the shell veers off target as shown by the arrow on the scatter dice. Move the template the distance indicated in the direction shown by the arrow."

This is the only time you are told to measure and even then it's only FROM the point you have guessed and not from the mortar taking in your initial guess in in the distance travelled.
The last part explains about misfires so I wont type that out.

So you see my problem, it not only does not tell you to measure it does not even hint at it, only in the scatter section and it's very clear where to measure from. So can anyone explain?

Festus
04-01-2007, 17:11
Hi

At this point you would have thought you would be then told to measure what you guessed?
But they already told you to...


Declare how far you want to fire the mortar shell, without measuring, and guessing the range as accurately as you can. You must guess a distance of between 12" and 48". After guessing, place the centre of the large 5" template over the spot you have guessed.
You must measure to find the spot you haved guessed after you guessed it. You will then put the template on the spot X" away from the machine in the determined direction.

If you do not have an integral rangefinder built into your tabletop, I strongly advise you to take your tape and measure the point you have guessed. How else will you know where it is?

Festus

FatOlaf
04-01-2007, 17:19
Hi

But they already told you to...

You must measure to find the spot you haved guessed after you guessed it. You will then put the template on the spot X" away from the machine in the determined direction.



Or else you are simply guessing a spot and saying how far it is, it still does not actually tell you to measure does it?

Atrahasis
04-01-2007, 17:36
Or else you are simply guessing a spot and saying how far it is, it still does not actually tell you to measure does it?

It tells you to guess a range, and then tells you to place the template on the corresponding spot on the table.

Believe me (the others here will agree I'm sure) if there was anything unclear about this rule I would be joining you in spinning this out to a 15 page thread. There isn't.

Briohmar
04-01-2007, 19:08
I'm sorry but I must chime in here and play Devil's advocate. In keeping with RAW (which in my opinion is absolute BS, but hey its the rules) You pick the target, guess the range to it, place the template on the spot you guessed the range to, regardless of whether or not the range is actually correct, because as it is written, you don't measure the distance, you just guess it. then scatter from the targetted point. Spirit of the rules no longer applies, now does it. The official party line is do it just as its written. I agree, that in the spirit of the rules, you would measure the 14" and place the template, which is how its always been in the past, but that's not what the rule as written says to do.

Neknoh
04-01-2007, 19:16
Doesn't it fire exactly like a stone thrower? Because if that's the case, the ruling for stone throwers tells you to measure the guessed distance

Briohmar
04-01-2007, 19:30
Doesn't it fire exactly like a stone thrower? Because if that's the case, the ruling for stone throwers tells you to measure the guessed distance

No because a stone thrower does not require line of sight to the target, while a mortar does.

Neknoh
04-01-2007, 19:55
I meant doesn't its rules state that it fires as a stone thrower? (with exceptions such as LoS listed etc.)

Briohmar
04-01-2007, 20:14
No it has its own set of firing rules as quoted previously. By the way, I was wrong, 7th ed stone throwers do have to have line of sight. I'm glad they fixed that little overly abused rule.

FatOlaf
05-01-2007, 16:01
Doesn't it fire exactly like a stone thrower? Because if that's the case, the ruling for stone throwers tells you to measure the guessed distance


I meant doesn't its rules state that it fires as a stone thrower? (with exceptions such as LoS listed etc.)


No it has it's own rules and does not mention anything to do with stone throwers, if it did problem would sorted. I think the issue is that people have just assumed that it is the same and gone on with it without actually reading the mortar rules, both in the 6th and now the 7th army book, the mortar has it's own rules section and never onve metions actually measuring your initial range, unlike all the other war machines, why is this?


It tells you to guess a range, and then tells you to place the template on the corresponding spot on the table.

Believe me (the others here will agree I'm sure) if there was anything unclear about this rule I would be joining you in spinning this out to a 15 page thread. There isn't.

Yes it tells you to say a range and then place the template over the spot you have guessed, it's perfectly clear I agree but it does not say to measure, does not even hint at it, do you see?

Atrahasis
05-01-2007, 16:04
Yes it tells you to say a range and then place the template over the spot you have guessed, it's perfectly clear I agree but it does not say to measure, does not even hint at it, do you see?How exactly are you going to place the template without measuring?

The rulebook doesn't tell you to pick up dice before you roll them, does that mean we can't?

Krankenstein
05-01-2007, 18:38
How exactly are you going to place the template without measuring?


By just placing it.

This is fun, but I doubt that this is anything but a case of slightly sloppy wording.

Firstly: Why declare a range if it was never meant to be used?
Secondly: If you just placed the template, mortars would be far more efficient than a stonethrower, and so far more expensive.

FatOlaf
06-01-2007, 18:46
How exactly are you going to place the template without measuring?

The rulebook doesn't tell you to pick up dice before you roll them, does that mean we can't?

No but the rules for every other war machine tells you to measure, these dont, in 2 different books. So the whole point of my question is why do you need to state the range, because all you do is just place it? It could be any range...

Your second bit there is not on, we go by these rules on these forums, in playing these games, as strictly as poss. Many posters here pride themselves onfollowing the rules as closely as possible. Yet here you are simply brushing away my points by assumption.
The RAW do not state you measure the range, they dont anywhere in the description of the motar, so why are you assuming the rules tell you to, why is this one warmachine so badly described even in a new army book?



By just placing it.

This is fun, but I doubt that this is anything but a case of slightly sloppy wording.

Firstly: Why declare a range if it was never meant to be used?
Secondly: If you just placed the template, mortars would be far more efficient than a stonethrower, and so far more expensive.

Exactly

Slightly sloppy wording that has now appeared in two army books, why?

Firstly: My point exactly
Secondly: You'd have thought so!

Atrahasis
06-01-2007, 18:57
Slightly sloppy wording that has now appeared in two army books, why?Your creative reading does not make the wording sloppy.

The mortar rules tell us to

1. Turn the machine to face the target.
2. Guess a range. This is important.
3. Place the template on the spot guessed (as determined by 1&2).

Just as we know how to roll dice without the rulebook telling us, we know how to place the template on the spot divined from 1&2.

Krankenstein
06-01-2007, 20:56
Just as we know how to roll dice without the rulebook telling us, we know how to place the template on the spot divined from 1&2.

Nah, we know how to place the template because we read the stone-thrower rules, and know how them warhammer template thingies work from days of olde.

Atrahasis
06-01-2007, 21:06
Nah, we know how to place the template because we read the stone-thrower rules, and know how them warhammer template thingies work from days of olde.

I just called my flatmate through, who has never played Warhammer (or any other tabletop wargame) in his life. I handed him teh Empire book and asked him to explain how to use a mortar.

He got it exactly right, and when he asked why I had asked him, he laughed and said it was perfectly clear.

It has nothing to do with prior knowledge of the game - the rule is clear and there's no strength in any argument to the contrary.

Baindread
07-01-2007, 01:45
No because a stone thrower does not require line of sight to the target, while a mortar does.

Read the new rules again. In 7th ed. you must be able to draw LOS from the ST to your target spot.

Festus
07-01-2007, 09:29
Hi

Read the new rules again. In 7th ed. you must be able to draw LOS from the ST to your target spot.
Read the thred again: Briohmar noticed that himself just two posts further :rolleyes:

Festus

Krankenstein
07-01-2007, 10:40
I just called my flatmate through, who has never played Warhammer (or any other tabletop wargame) in his life. I handed him teh Empire book and asked him to explain how to use a mortar.

He got it exactly right, and when he asked why I had asked him, he laughed and said it was perfectly clear.

Argh! Beaten by Teh Internet Anecdote! Oh the shame.

Seriously, I have no doubt that getting the mortar rules wrong is extremely rare.

Baindread
07-01-2007, 11:33
Hi

Read the thred again: Briohmar noticed that himself just two posts further :rolleyes:

Festus

Doh, I read that post, only I stopped after the first sentence. Oh, well. :skull:

FatOlaf
07-01-2007, 18:35
I just called my flatmate through, who has never played Warhammer (or any other tabletop wargame) in his life. I handed him teh Empire book and asked him to explain how to use a mortar.

He got it exactly right, and when he asked why I had asked him, he laughed and said it was perfectly clear.

It has nothing to do with prior knowledge of the game - the rule is clear and there's no strength in any argument to the contrary.


I'm glad your friend had a good laugh, Me and my 3 friends with over 45 years RPG (etc) experience found the Mortar rules a real humdinger.
IT IS badly written, it does not tell you to measure, you are filling in the gaps using your knowledge of other rules.
I have no doubt it is probably meant to be this way but IT IS NOT clear to me or my friends.
I'm glad some posters on this thread have at least seen this flaw.

I'm not trying to argue to the contrary either, I dont see any other way that it could work otherwise, I just wanted someone to clarify the RAW and so far no-one has.

Festus
07-01-2007, 18:38
I have no doubt it is probably meant to be this way but IT IS NOT clear to me or my friends.

This is a Contradictio in Terminis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contradictio_in_terminis)

Greetings
Festus

ZomboCom
07-01-2007, 18:54
The RAW isn't important, since theWarhammer rules are mostly gibberish. The intention of the rule is clear enough.

Atrahasis
07-01-2007, 18:55
IT IS badly written, it does not tell you to measure, you are filling in the gaps using your knowledge of other rules.

It is not badly written. I have used knowledge of no other rules to come to the conclusion that somewhere along the line I need to measure.

The rules tell us to pick a direction and guess a range. It then tells us to place the template on the spot determined by that direction and range. How you expect to do that without measuring is beyond me. It isn't knowledge of rules that tells me (or my flatmate) this, but reading the process described and doing it the only possible way.

Placing the template directly over the targetted model without measuring does not satisfy the rules requirement that we place the template over the "spot you have guessed".

The "spot you have guessed" is derived from the direction chosen and the range guessed. There is nothing unclear or difficult about that.

Again, your (and your 3 friends') inability to grasp such a basic concept does not make the concept any less basic.

Atrahasis
07-01-2007, 18:56
The RAW isn't important, since theWarhammer rules are mostly gibberish. The intention of the rule is clear enough.

The thing is the RAW work perfectly well in this case. There really isn't anything unclear about them.

FatOlaf
09-01-2007, 13:06
The rules tell us to pick a direction and guess a range. It then tells us to place the template on the spot determined by that direction and range. How you expect to do that without measuring is beyond me. It isn't knowledge of rules that tells me (or my flatmate) this, but reading the process described and doing it the only possible way.

That was my point, I find it strange that they dont tell you to measure, It just seems that they have tried to save space. Any way, all sorted now, I will tell my opponent tonight to get his tape measure ready, it was his mortar that started the :wtf: . Thanks guys for the lively debate.