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x-esiv-4c
04-04-2005, 14:49
Instead of expending millions of natural human lives, would it not be more beneficial ( economically etc. ) to just create clones with a pre-disposition for their intended job? I don't know how much it costs to create a clone in the 40k universe but I'm sure it's more cost-beneficial then it is today. Also, with the futher advent and use of genetic manipulation, couldn't you make one batch of clones more resistant to certain hostile conditions?
I'm not sure if the subject has been touched upon ( or rigorously chewed over ) so I thought I would give it a shot.

Thanks.

TheSonOfAbbadon
04-04-2005, 14:59
Chaos DO clones their warriors, Eldar don't have the technology, the Imperium doesn't see the benefits of cloning, Necrons just build new dudes, Tau don't have the technology, Tyranids reproduce via spores, Orks also reproduce via spores but create almost exact copies of the Ork.

^_^

Avenging Dentist
04-04-2005, 16:05
Well, if there's one thing the Imperium has no shortage of, it's manpower. As the quote goes, "the universe is a big place, and above all, you will not be missed" (or something along those lines). I'm sure for the Imperium that the most bothersome part of levying soldiers is actually equipping them. A full set of kit for a Guardsman probably costs a reasonable amount, and the Guardsman will probably just get killed by some gribbling Chaos abomination.

The Imperium also leaves the formation of Guard regiments to the individual planets and merely requires a tithe of soldiers. Since most worlds are under absolute rule by the Imperial Governor, he decides how to levy troops. Chances are, the average Imperial Governor is more concerned about efficiency in the short term, and so will just draft the dregs of his planet into service.

In addition, don't forget that your average clone still needs to grow up, and even if you keep him in a tube until adulthood, you'll still need to feed him, provide muscular stimulants, etc. Of course, keeping him in a tube raises the question of how you'd educate the clone; Guardsmen aren't paid to be smart, but they aren't intellectual infants, either.

I suppose using hormonal treatments to stimulate growth is possible, but I imagine that there are serious side effects to doing so (not to mention that it would be expensive to do so, as well). Unfortunately, I never took a whole lot of Biology classes, so I don't know what exactly would happen.

Wraith
04-04-2005, 16:17
Tyranids reproduce via spores

No they don't...

The norn queens produce lava which then become the various breeds of Tyranid. Also hormaguants can lay eggs, Genestealers have their own reproductive cycle (as well as being produced by Norn queens), and Rippers can pupate and become Gaunts (and possibly other creatures).

salty
04-04-2005, 16:19
They have experimented with it before, like those ones that are made up of the best elements of each of the Imperium's greatest heroes (I can't remember what they are called). But whats the point in cloning (which I imagine would still be quite a costly endeavour) when you can simply recurit twenty million new normal humans without there being any noticable effect on trade/production etc?

Salty :)

P.S. Why do Chaos clone there warriors? The only instance I have heard of in this context is the attempt to clone the Warmaster by the Emperor's Children and the attempts to create geneseed by Fabius Bile.

salty
04-04-2005, 16:20
No they don't...

The norn queens produce lava which then become the various breeds of Tyranid. Also hormaguants can lay eggs, Genestealers have their own reproductive cycle (as well as being produced by Norn queens), and Rippers can pupate and become Gaunts (and possibly other creatures).

I never knew that! Sounds very Starcrafty to me :D

Salty :)

Wraith
04-04-2005, 16:25
But whats the point in cloning (which I imagine would still be quite a costly endeavour) when you can simply recurit twenty million new normal humans without there being any noticable effect on trade/production etc?

P.S. Why do Chaos clone there warriors? The only instance I have heard of in this context is the attempt to clone the Warmaster by the Emperor's Children and the attempts to create geneseed by Fabius Bile.

One size fits all armour, all of them right/left handed, created with a particular drug addiction so as to be kept loyal, engineered to be already corrupted by chaos etc

salty
04-04-2005, 16:27
Yes but I imagine that would be more along the lines of genetic engineering than physical cloning of a warrior?

Salty :)

Wraith
04-04-2005, 16:31
Well true but once you have a good 'template' or starting point you can then modify it - cloning and genetic engineering would be closely related fields I'd imagine if the creation of soldiers was one's aim. No point risking genetically altering different subjects if you can just clone one who you know is biologically capable of surviving such alterations as would be involved in becoming a space marine for example.

It's just a case of picking a particular worthy original template... Horus in the case of Abaddon for example (if you like me believe the clone child rumour).

Sai-Lauren
04-04-2005, 16:33
One clone. Costs the imperium x imperial credits to grow, support to maturity and train. Possibility of engineered plagues to attack the clones whilst leaving enemy forces unaffected. Attacks on cloning facilities would leave the imperium without an army - at best leading to a significant outlay in credits to pay for defences.

One recruited human. Costs 0 credits to the imperium to grow, 0 credits to directly support to maturity (ok, some planets may have government supplied schooling, health care etc) and y to train - and y is probably less than the taxes human and (non-recruited) family members have paid through their lives to this point. Less easy to obliterate with bio-weapons - and leaving the enemy open to their own weapons mutating and coming after them too, and no single site production site for an enemy to destroy, although imperium wide defences are significantly costly - but they'd still have to be there even with clones.

Plus there are millions upon millions of humans that would get bored and do things not in the imperiums best interests unless their energies were redirected into the imperial guard.

On a related note, does anyone else think the imperium is in a kind of constant baby boom - most of our wars have seen an increase in the birth rate both during and immediatly after, and the imperium is virtually always at war across it's entirity.

salty
04-04-2005, 16:40
I do, like you Wraith, believe that Abaddon is Horus' cloned son; they are jsut too alike not to be.
However, Sai Lauren has just said exactly what I was trying to say, and said it a damn sight better too!
@Sai Lauren: Any nation, even now, has a "baby boom" after a war, as the population needs to recuperate itself.

Salty :)

Sojourner
04-04-2005, 17:06
Cloning is apparently banned in the Imperium. Same with robots.

Of course the Admech flout the law now and then, but they're the only ones who can get away with it.

worldshatterer
04-04-2005, 17:15
The imperium rarely thinks logically, performing cost benefit analyses of the potential long term outcome of their actions . All of you are thinking in this manner, are going way too hard sci-fi for Warhammer .

The 40k Imperium is driven by Religous superstition . I'm fairly certain that the Ad-Mech consider cloning a blasphemy, equal with creating sentient machines, all part of the technology that brought about man's downfall in the dark age of technology .

If you want a more rational line of thinking, apparently theres something psychicaly wrong with clones . In the Imperial Guard Abhuman article in white dwarf, it mentioned the Afriel strain supersoldiers who are meant to be clones . They are apparently extremely unlucky, and all opponents attack them with an inhuman fury[they count them as a favoured enemy] which makes them ineffective combat troops even they are physically and mentallly superior to your average imperial guardsman[they have atsknf].

malika
04-04-2005, 17:46
Cloning does happen in the Imperium, how else do you think they grow the organs for the Space Marines? They'd probably clone Servitors for this or something.

During or at the end of the Horus Heresy the Ravenguard had a whole bunch of clones which turned into savage monsters.

Wraith
04-04-2005, 18:03
Cloning does happen in the Imperium, how else do you think they grow the organs for the Space Marines?

They don't clone them in the sense that they grow them artificially - they instead implant them and the natural progneoid glands (in the neck and chest) collect gene seed so another generation of organs can be grown.

When a new marine chapter is sanctioned to be constructed by the High Lords the Ad Mech don't artificially clone the organs instead they implant slave humans and mature them to the point where the glands can be harvested. This process continues until there is enough gene seed organs to construct an entire chapter.

Minister
04-04-2005, 19:49
Cloning is exclusivley the works of the Mechanisuc, indeed many of their tech-adepts are cloned rather than born naturally. (The act of mating is concidered unpleasantly organic and distasteful by many senior Mechanicus members, and none of the senior female members are likley to even contemplate being disturbed from their works for the length of time it would take to carry a child to term.)

Cloning requires skilled labour, particularly vat-cloning, and requires teaching what is esentially a newborn (reguardless of physical age) everything from scratch (which is why the process is popular for servitors - no teaching is needed). It is also a taboo amongst most of the Imperium, thus very few would concider it. To top it off, many such experiments in the past have not worked entirley well.

Normal human reproduction, on the other hand, how shall I put this, neither requires skilled labour nor specialised equipment (with the exception of midwifes and any surgery needed for a dificult birth, but certainly nothing that requires a Magos Biologis). The children are then raised by the parents and society at large (and the priests of the Ecclesiarchy, one would hope) and will produce a suficient number of persons that the best may be selected for direct Imperial service, whilst the rest support the Imperium indirectly.

salty
04-04-2005, 21:12
Afriel Strain, they're who I was talking about (created from the Imperium's greatest heroes). They are uber-unlucky or something like that. That could be why the Imperium doesn't 'do' cloning.

Salty :)

TheSonOfAbbadon
04-04-2005, 21:13
By 'Uber-unlucky' I bet you mean 'Uber-retarded/mutated'.

Minister
04-04-2005, 21:37
Nope. Dedecated, hard-working, upstanding Imperial subjects and soldiers in every way.

Only problem is, no-one likes them.

As in, everyone gets the advantage of the "favoured enemy" rule against them.

No reason known.

TheSonOfAbbadon
04-04-2005, 21:44
A benetic deficiancy which makes them fundamentabley unlikeable? B.O. for example?

worldshatterer
05-04-2005, 00:45
nope, the universe just hates the poor freaks . theres no easy explanation for it, they literally seem to attract bad luck.

inquisitorautry
05-04-2005, 03:24
It could have something to do with the clones not being able to interact with the warp properly (no real souls to speak of). Because of that the more natural creatures of the universe really don't like them.

salty
05-04-2005, 11:07
Good point. It could also have something to do with the fact that every single damned one of 'em is an albino!

Salty :)

Wraith
05-04-2005, 11:56
Albino's are 'bad'? Hope no albinos are reading this and take offence...

I see no evidence why a clone would have no soul or a weak presence in the warp.

I think it may jusy be something psychic - an area of effect that occurs when many clones (of the same person) are together in one area.

salty
05-04-2005, 12:11
A clone is a genetically created creature; not like a space marine, who starts out as a human and is engineered to be superhuman. Therefore, as they don't engineer a soul for it, how does it get one?

Although it could just be the psychic thing, like for those "anti-psykers" whose name I can't remember, everyone hates them too.

Salty :)

gLOBS
05-04-2005, 14:57
I thought the adeptus mechanicus used clones to farm geneseed.

malika
05-04-2005, 16:12
Yeah I thought the same, that they grew Space Marine organs in clones.

Hideous Loon
05-04-2005, 16:52
But you are all missing the point here: The Imperium has more people on all its millions of worlds than you can imagine. It's much, much cheaper to simply haul away millions of humans on a starship than it is to create the same amount of clones, because of the VAST amount of manpower. They don't even make clones to create/devolve Servitors: they take a slave and lobotomize him. Simple. Plus, it's probably blasphemic to make clones anyway, on the same general principle as making thinking machines.

Sojourner
05-04-2005, 17:01
Plus, it's probably blasphemic to make clones anyway, on the same general principle as making thinking machines.

This is what I've been saying and it is indeed true as far as I can tell. It's another type of corruption of the good, honest human right to dominance.

charlie_c67
05-04-2005, 17:29
They don't even make clones to create/devolve Servitors: they take a slave and lobotomize him. Simple. Plus, it's probably blasphemic to make clones anyway, on the same general principle as making thinking machines.

Wrong. Some servitors are lobotomised criminals. However, the majority are grown in cloning vats.

TheSonOfAbbadon
05-04-2005, 18:26
On the albino note, if they go out in the sun, sun burn, skin cancer, blindness.

Not really very effective warriors, eh?

Wraith
05-04-2005, 19:39
A clone is a genetically created creature; not like a space marine, who starts out as a human and is engineered to be superhuman. Therefore, as they don't engineer a soul for it, how does it get one?

They have a soul because they are life - they wouldn't need to be given a soul - the soul seems to develop as a new entity does maturing as it grows.


Although it could just be the psychic thing, like for those "anti-psykers" whose name I can't remember, everyone hates them too.

Untouchables (Pariahs) are a completey different thing...


They don't even make clones to create/devolve Servitors: they take a slave and lobotomize him. Simple. Plus, it's probably blasphemic to make clones anyway, on the same general principle as making thinking machines.

Most servitors are made from cloned human parts.

Careful not to say 'simple' when you are actually wrong it doesn't look good.


On the albino note, if they go out in the sun, sun burn, skin cancer, blindness.

Not really very effective warriors, eh?

Depends on the planet they fight on...

They'd actually probably do a lot better with light skin if they travel through space a lot and visit different worlds - they'd need to be able to absorb as much vitmain D from the sun as possible and light skin allows this hence why it evolved in humans in the first place.

TheSonOfAbbadon
05-04-2005, 19:54
Albino means practically no skin pigment, that means skin cancer and sun burn. Their isis' are pink [no pigment] so they'll go blind or have sight defects [temporarily or permanently] when exposed to light.

Albino doesn't mean white people.

Minister
05-04-2005, 21:30
Albino does mean white people, it's just that white people doesn't mean caucasian/European. Albino also means other things, but the most obvious is a skin tone which is actually white (as oposed to some sort of colour from pink to dark brown). Just because it's common useage doesn't make it right.

Wehee! Pdeanticnesnesssnes.

TheSonOfAbbadon
05-04-2005, 21:35
Albino doesn't mean ALL white people, it means people whose skin is actually white, not peachy-pink or whatever.

salty
06-04-2005, 08:35
Untouchables (Pariahs) are a completey different thing...

I know they are completely different, I was merely suggesting that they could have some similar psychic discrepancy that makes them predisposed towards being hated by others/extremely unlucky.

Salty :)

Minister
06-04-2005, 15:35
The same could possibly be said of the Lamenters.

Of course, it could simply be a sustained statistical bilp. Either that, or the Emperor has decided that he doesn't like them (or one of his daemons, but that's another rant which really needs Bruslov).