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View Full Version : 3 Questions: netters, dead mages and bestigor



Tutore
01-01-2007, 21:39
Dear forum readers,
I have got three questions for you. I didn't find the answers in the forum threads I read; however, feel free to redirect me to other threads to find the answer instead of saying it here.

Question 1 (occurred yesterday): unit of night goblins with nets. It's charged by a unit of trollslayers having failed a animosity check previously in the game. They decide to try to resist. They use the nets successfully; however, rules of the trollslayers say their strength goes to the level of toughness of the enemy. We decided that the slayers could still wound with a 4+ (and killed my poor goblins sigh). Were we right? Does the trollslayer rule prevail on the nets?

Question 2 (occurred many times): when a warmachine explodes, no victory point goes to the enemy. Now, if a mage miscasts and dies as a result, does the enemy get the points? We always decide that he does, but I wanted to know your opinion. The rulebook says nothing (I checked a couple of times).

Question 3: the armybook of the Beasts of Chaos says that up to one unit of Bestigors has the mark of undivided chaos. This mark may be changed at a cost for another mark (Khorne, Nurgle, ...). Now this has been interpreted by a friend of mine with 'only one unit of bestigors may have the undivided mark, but as many as one wants to may be promoted to another mark', thus having 2-3 units of Khorne marked bestigor units (he never played against me this way, I wouldn't let him do so). Is he right? I hope not.

Thank you for advice.

Sherlocko
01-01-2007, 21:52
I don´t know the answer to question one so I will pass on that one

q2: If the mage dies, the opponent is awarded points for him.

q3: Only one bestigor unit in the army may carry a mark.

DeathlessDraich
01-01-2007, 21:57
The rules do not contain clear guidelines for your questions.

1) Nets reduce strength of the enemies while slayers strength is increased to match their opponents toughness. This is a dice roll because there are 2 different outcomes depending on whether netters are applied first or slayers rules.
There is an FAQ in Chronicles 4 but that cannot be applied to 7th ed.

2) VP are awarded on the basis of characters "destroyed" - not necessarily slain by the enemy. Your interpretation is the same as mine.

I'll leave no 3 to the others.

Tutore
01-01-2007, 21:59
Thank you. Until now my interpretation are similar to yours. Any other thought?

Festus
01-01-2007, 22:12
Hi

Question 1 (occurred yesterday): unit of night goblins with nets. It's charged by a unit of trollslayers having failed a animosity check previously in the game. They decide to try to resist. They use the nets successfully; however, rules of the trollslayers say their strength goes to the level of toughness of the enemy. We decided that the slayers could still wound with a 4+ (and killed my poor goblins sigh). Were we right? Does the trollslayer rule prevail on the nets?
The two rules conflict: There are a few ways to solve the problem:

The easiest is simply to roll a die which one applies.

I prefer another one, really: The Slayers increase their S to the value of the Gobbos T (ie. +0) and then they subtract -1 from that number for the effect of the nets.

Question 2 (occurred many times): when a warmachine explodes, no victory point goes to the enemy. Now, if a mage miscasts and dies as a result, does the enemy get the points? We always decide that he does, but I wanted to know your opinion. The rulebook says nothing (I checked a couple of times).
When a Warmachine explodes, the enemy gets the VPs (cf. p.102 on VPs).
The same applies to a Mage: If it is destroyed or fleeing at the end of the game, VPs are awarded, regardless of who inflicted the casualty... the Orcs killed by your own Fanatics give up VPs as well

Question 3: the armybook of the Beasts of Chaos says that up to one unit of Bestigors has the mark of undivided chaos. This mark may be changed at a cost for another mark (Khorne, Nurgle, ...). Now this has been interpreted by a friend of mine with 'only one unit of bestigors may have the undivided mark, but as many as one wants to may be promoted to another mark', thus having 2-3 units of Khorne marked bestigor units (he never played against me this way, I wouldn't let him do so). Is he right? I hope not.
Nope, he is wrong: Only one unit of Bestigors can be marked.

Festus

Tutore
01-01-2007, 22:18
Thank you festus. I was sure warmachines didn't concede points. I have to recheck my rulebook. 6th edition, at least in the last years, said that the enemy got no point.

Flame
01-01-2007, 22:30
In 6th edition you did get points if the enemies war machines blew themselves up.

Atrahasis
01-01-2007, 22:44
6th edition, at least in the last years, said that the enemy got no point.This has never been the case.

loveless
02-01-2007, 02:19
In 6th edition you did get points if the enemies war machines blew themselves up.

try not to reference previous editions of the game for current rules issues, since they'll do nothing more than confuse players

Tutore
02-01-2007, 08:46
Thank you all, questions answered.

Flame
02-01-2007, 09:51
try not to reference previous editions of the game for current rules issues, since they'll do nothing more than confuse players


Yes my lord :rolleyes:

He stated that it had been played this way since sixth, and I was merely pointing out that it wasnt in fact true.

T10
02-01-2007, 12:01
1. Factor in the Strength bonus for weapons and penalties for nets first. Then adjust Strength to match Toughness as necessary.

E.g.: Troll Slayers using two hand weapons against a unit of netters:
Strength 3 (base) +0 (hand weapons) -1 (nets) = Strength 2. Adjust to Strength 3.

E.g.: Troll Slayers using great weapons against a unit of netters:
Strength 3 (base) +2 (great weapons) -1 (nets) = Strength 4. No adjustment.

2. Unless otherwise specified destroyed units count towards Victory Points.

3. Only one unit of Bestigors has the Mark of Chaos Undivided and only that unit may be upgraded to a different Mark.

-T10

Festus
02-01-2007, 12:16
Hi

1. Factor in the Strength bonus for weapons and penalties for nets first. Then adjust Strength to match Toughness as necessary.

E.g.: Troll Slayers using two hand weapons against a unit of netters:
Strength 3 (base) +0 (hand weapons) -1 (nets) = Strength 2. Adjust to Strength 3.

E.g.: Troll Slayers using great weapons against a unit of netters:
Strength 3 (base) +2 (great weapons) -1 (nets) = Strength 4. No adjustment.
How do you come to this conclusion?

Why don't you calculate the Slayer's Strength first and then you subtract -1 for the nets?

Neither is fully logical, I agree, but I still thing that the Nets will have the higher priority. I base this simply on the facts that the Nets 1st have a definite time in the turn/phase structure and 2nd that they can *backfire*, reducing the Gobbos S as well.

As I said above: If you don't come to an agreement, you will have to roll for it, but I do favour the nets having higher priority.

Festus

T10
02-01-2007, 16:43
How do you come to this conclusion?

Why don't you calculate the Slayer's Strength first and then you subtract -1 for the nets?


For the same reason you don't adjust the Strength before applying the Strength modifier for great weapons. A Slayer has the option of fighting with either two hand weapons or a great weapon. Against a T6 opponent he fights with S6 with either option. He doesn't get S8 when using a great weapon.

I work from the assumption that both the Strength bonus and the penalty have equal priority.

-T10

Festus
02-01-2007, 16:48
Hi

So you calculate the Slayer's S, do the nets and then you add the slayerskill?

I'd do one side first: Calculate the Slayers S (ie. base + Slayerskill) and then factor the nets.

You indeed could do vice versa (modify by nets and then calculate the Slayer's S), but I hardly don't think it appropriate...

...so it seems we will have to roll a dice for it, then :D

Festus

Griefbringer
02-01-2007, 17:17
To me, factoring all of the modifiers to S before taking into account the slayer skill feels more practical solution gaming-wise, though perhaps not super-fluffy.

Mordu22
02-01-2007, 17:20
I would think that you would have to figure out what the slayer's str was first. For the nets to have a -1 to str you need to know what the strength is in order to apply a -1 one to it.

Palatine Katinka
02-01-2007, 18:52
The Slayer Skill alters their Strength after all other modifications. The rule mentions this for Great Weapons and the same would apply to nets or the Dark Elf Shield of Ghrond (also -1 to attackers Strength). Personally I think this sucks for the Goblins but that's the way it is.
They always wound on a 4+ or better by raising their Strength to equal their opponents Toughness, after other modifications. I believe the Strength bonus caps at 6 though.

Latro
02-01-2007, 19:11
From the Dwarf book (page 33):

"When rolling to wound, a Slayer's strength, including any modifiers for weapons, is increased until it is equal ... blah blah blah"

So the skill doesn't kick in until you're actually rolling to wound, well after the nets me thinks.

Festus
02-01-2007, 19:13
Hi


The Slayer Skill alters their Strength after all other modifications.

The Slayerskill only talks about S modification for weapons, not ALL modifications.
Nets are not weapons, but a unit's effect.

I still would either roll or resolve the nets last (meaning a Slayer will wound on a 5+ or 3+, depending on weapon).

Festus

Latro
02-01-2007, 19:41
Hi



The Slayerskill only talks about S modification for weapons, not ALL modifications.
Nets are not weapons, but a unit's effect.

I still would either roll or resolve the nets last (meaning a Slayer will wound on a 5+ or 3+, depending on weapon).

Festus

The strength modification you're refering to is about their own weapons, so they can't "skill" their way to a 4+ to wound and use a great axe to bump it to 2+ every time.

I don't have the exact wording from the netters, but I'm pretty sure it takes effect before rolling to wound ... so the Slayer Skill would nullify it's effect.

Festus
02-01-2007, 19:55
Hi

I don't have the exact wording from the netters, but I'm pretty sure it takes effect before rolling to wound ...
Unfortunaltely you are wrong: The effect lasts through the complete combat phase, right to its end, as explicitly given in the rules for Netters...

Festus

Latro
02-01-2007, 20:07
Hi

Unfortunaltely you are wrong: The effect lasts through the complete combat phase, right to its end, as explicitly given in the rules for Netters...

Festus

Of course it does, which is basicly what every modifier does ... no great weapon ever decided to stop halfway (unless under effect of something else).

But that wasn't what I was asking, was it?

When do the nets kick in? My bet is they are used before the Slayer Skill ... and the Skill ups the strength back to 4+ to wound (which effect also lasts the complete combat)

... the only way out for the nets is to either be used after the Skill (which I think they aren't), or to explicitly have stated that they nullify/overrule/whatever any other modifier to strength that came into effect after the nets.

Festus
02-01-2007, 20:20
Hi

As you may or may not know I do have the German version of the books. So I will have to translate and cannot give exact quotes.

But the o&G book tells us explicitly, that the Nets come into effect at the start of the combat phase and - equally explicitly - that they stay in effect until the very end of said phase.

Well... we will not come to an agreement here, I think. I still am in favour of taking one S off the slayers, but let's roll for it... :)

Festus

Latro
02-01-2007, 20:39
I roll a six ... :D

Festus
02-01-2007, 20:48
D'oh!

You win ;)

Festus

Tutore
02-01-2007, 22:30
I see the main problem is the clash of two opposing rules. As Festus and others said, the best way to solve it is a die roll.

Danke vielmals! Hilfe aus Deutschland ist immer wichtig, wenn es vernuenftig ist.