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Slaaneshi Slave
02-01-2007, 01:27
I may be wrong, but I am noticing a trend. Figures I have bought recently seem to have taken a huge drop in quality compared to those I purchased 6 years ago (before I quit). There is more detail, sure, but I am talking about more damaged parts, and a lot more flash. Anybody else notice this?

The_Outsider
02-01-2007, 01:33
Well I guess thats a trade off. Want more quality, thus more complicated mould thus probably more flash (at least thats my logic).

I can't conciously say I have noticed a difference, but I use mainly plastic models.

Slaaneshi Slave
02-01-2007, 01:36
Well I'm currently sitting at my desk with a huge pile of plastic off cuts from the Marines I've been assembling for two days. >.< Probably why I noticed it.

The_Outsider
02-01-2007, 01:39
Well I'm currently sitting at my desk with a huge pile of plastic off cuts from the Marines I've been assembling for two days. >.< Probably why I noticed it.

Plastic models have always been a problem for flash IMO. But unlike metal models (which is what I had in mind in my first post) plastic flash is far easier to remove.

Talking about flash, after building 1k of DE (battleforce + 2 raider and squad sets) you have about 1 metric F-ton(™) of plastic flash and spures.

Slaaneshi Slave
02-01-2007, 01:45
I recently build a 4,000 point Sisters of Battle army, with over 80 metal figures... If I recast all the flash I cut off I could add another 1,000 points I think. :p

The_Outsider
02-01-2007, 01:48
Sounds like a profit to me.

Also, I find metal flash is always in goddamn annyoing areas (like in crocthes and the like) while plastic flash is generally on large areas of the model (obviously where it is attached to the sprue).

Oh and standing on a pile of plastic flash is not something someone should try.

Khornies & milk
02-01-2007, 03:22
Can't say I have encountered much flash on my Daemonhunter metal minis, and I have 3000 pts. of them.

The other day however, I bought a blister of a GKT w/ Psycannon and the 'written' detail was very thin and crappy compared to others I have purchased.

cheers

sugarwookie
02-01-2007, 04:41
I've noticed this. I was very disapointed with the new Ork warboss kit for Fantasy. This guy should be the biggest of the big and he's just pitiful looking to be honest.
I have seen quality drop as well. It's really sad in a way. You see prices rising and you're not getting much for the increase, of anything. Hell, the Fabius Bile model is now seventeen bucks. That's just amazing to me to be honest.
Anywhoo, not much that can be done I imagine, sadly.

Mr_Smiley
02-01-2007, 05:33
The plastic models only seem to be getting better, I do think that they are trying to move towards as much plastic as possible and are not bothering to rework metal models towards any higher quality.

Penitent
02-01-2007, 05:47
I suppose its possible there is more flash than there used to be.

On the other hand, aside from a few fragile parts in the early days of 3rd edition, I've not seen much in the way of models breaking.

And, having seen the progress of models since the late days of 1st ed 40k, I would very much have to say that the overall quality has gone up

Aundae
02-01-2007, 06:20
I would say quality is definitly going down. However this is only my opinion because GW is moving toward more and more plastic, and I hate plastic models. The actual molds themselves however have been exceptional thus far.

Brother Antonios
02-01-2007, 07:24
Well this is a dangerous topic because you have to measure quality against something, like price. Quality has gone up, but prices have matched that quality rise. So in essence have we really gained anything? Most people I know who are getting "back in" to the hobby have this problem, they remember when an OK lot of OK quality models sold for an OK amount, now they pay so much more, and this rolls around the back of their mind and makes the value of the better newer platic models seem reduced.

I bet it's just a case of nostalgia here, if you have six year old marine compare it to one of the newer platics, really no comparison, the newer plastics are so much better you will hide that old style marine in the back of your army.

Let me also add that damaged parts can be returned and in hundreds of sprues I've only come across maybe 4 sprues worth of damaged goods, which were replaced free of charge.

Agamemnon2
02-01-2007, 07:28
Personally, I measure GW quality against plastic model kit quality in general, and on that front GW is in trouble, just barely on part with Easter European manufacturers like Zvezda and RPM. All the heavy hitters of plastic tanks, for example, are sailing far beyond the GW sphere.

devolutionary
02-01-2007, 07:30
The major issue I have seen is that they seem to have allowed some fool with only a quarter of a brain cell to cut some of the molds. The Bretonnian Warhorse for example is awfully done, with a huge ******* line right down the middle of small detail... and then it's cast half a milimetre off! It's shockingly obvious on the model too. Such a shame, because it's a damn fine model.

Catferret
02-01-2007, 07:38
@Agamemnon2

The quality of tank kits should hopefully start to improve with the new technology GW have. All that computer designed laser zapping resin shenanigans. They can now do perfect replicas of Forge World stuff in plastic so let's see what happens.

Agamemnon2
02-01-2007, 08:00
They still have a long way to go. I'm not expecting Dragon quality, but right now, theirs is beyond the level Tamiya did back in the 70s. And it's not all because of GW wanting to make models more gamer-proof, either.

Brother Antonios
02-01-2007, 08:56
They still have a long way to go. I'm not expecting Dragon quality, but right now, theirs is beyond the level Tamiya did back in the 70s. And it's not all because of GW wanting to make models more gamer-proof, either.

Getting way OT here, but I have to ask. I looked at some Tamiya models just a few months ago, and some Dragon. Are the Dragon resin kits comparable to the Forgeworld resin kits?

Ravenous
02-01-2007, 09:11
I agree that GWs quality is dropping in some areas (chaos possessed, Captain Cortez anyone?) But I think they are getting better in others.

The new plastic devastators look like doofuses compared to other marines. Where as things like the eldar wraithlord are fantastic.

Its hit and miss.

As for the miscasts: yes that is a huge problem. Before the biggest problem was the occasional missing part. Now every 3rd box I buy is a miscast I had a box of Gaunts with all the bodies melted. Another time I had a hive tyrant missing its back vents/stack things. Is there zero quality control? or is it just me getting a screw up every 3rd purchase?

Flash wise it is getting to be a pain but its not as terrible as forge world who oddly enough have gotten much better or at least that Ive notice anyway.

Vaktathi
02-01-2007, 09:28
gw's mini range varies so much over different armies that it is often hard to tell. I cannot stand Cadians (except for Kasrkin) or Catachans, and most of the Space Marine models do not strike me as fantastic, however the Terminator Chaplain is one of the best models I've seen, and most of the Chaos line looks great. So I'd have to say that they are still working out the kinks in their modeling line.

rivers3162
02-01-2007, 09:44
Generally, I'd say that the amount of detail going into the plastics is excellent and if the range is eventually all or mostly plastic then I'll be happy as I hate having "doubles" of figures.

Most figures I've bought from GW have been fine quality wise with one hideous exception. Every Grey Knight I've ever bought has had a huge lump of surplus metal on the back of his bolter due to the way the arms are positioned and due to the mold. It just looks terrible, though maybe it is just me that keeps getting these miscast freaks!

Jo Bennett
02-01-2007, 11:08
I bet it's just a case of nostalgia here, if you have six year old marine compare it to one of the newer platics, really no comparison, the newer plastics are so much better you will hide that old style marine in the back of your army.


Except that marines 6 years ago were the same models as they are now. Yes, they've recut the sprues, but the models haven't changed. You have to go back almost 10 years now to get to the previous version of marines, and so long as they're not the ones from the 2nd ed box there is no reason to hide them anyway.

Jan Polder
02-01-2007, 11:39
I have recently bought the eldar army deal and the old battleforce with two grav platforms. So far I have had only 1 part which was a little bit melted.

The Dire Avangers are in my opinion a good example of the improvements GW made in the last years. The models fit so much better together then the old guardians and look better.

With injection moulding cooling down takes roughly 70&#37; of the cycle time. Trying to reduce this will lower production cost but it will mean balancing on a razorfine edge. Esspecialy hard to reach spot might not get fully shaped because the plastic colled down to much before filling the cavity. This is not to say that it is excusable to sell faulty sprues but it is a quality control thing. On the other hand some things will always slip without insane quality control through. And they don't make a fuss about it when you return a faulty sprue.

So in the end IMHO the quality of the figures has gone up, and clearly they are making an effort of reducing cost as much as they can without , in the end, the gamer not suffering for it.

If however like me you don't live next door to a GW store make it a habit of opening the box as soon as you bought it at the GW. This way you can check if there aren't any mistakes. Even you might miss some but at least it's a extra precaution. And let's be honest, who doesn't open his box as soon as he can ;)

Cheers

Max

zombied00d
02-01-2007, 11:46
One of the issues is that we've seen a near universal rise in the quality of sculpts across the board in miniatures gaming. So on those occassions when we see a dodgy sculpt (like the previously mentioned) we tend to be more unforgiving of it.

In regards to the QC at GW, they've grown a bunch and unfortunately their self policing has lagged. It happens. But standing policy is replacement free of charge so it's only an issue of the hassle to get it swapped...

Slaaneshi Slave
02-01-2007, 13:44
If however like me you don't live next door to a GW store make it a habit of opening the box as soon as you bought it at the GW. This way you can check if there aren't any mistakes. Even you might miss some but at least it's a extra precaution. And let's be honest, who doesn't open his box as soon as he can ;)

I would, but whenever I got to a GW store its usually to buy a new army, not a new box. :p

Captain Micha
02-01-2007, 14:06
heh. I have only had one gw mini problem and thats my -metal- Tau pathfinder. no problems with the plastics here! not on my tau or crons. save for my stupid heavy destroyer.. that gun just wont stay on! let alone the molding of the spot where I put the green rods was so badly done that I have to trim both the rod and the slot... then again that gun is metal...

Lord Hjamlar
02-01-2007, 14:11
I just got a new box of assault marines, and the minis lack a lot of details... On the back of the armour there aren't any holes/marks as before... A lot of casting flesh - on backpacks, 'nades, arms!!
The sprue is rather round, if u get what I'm talkin' about, not square like before...

Sakura
02-01-2007, 17:16
I've found flash on plastic to be rather a non issue, its so easy to remove, mould lines only need a quick drag of a blade to remove them.

When it comes to degradation of the quality in models detail then yes, their has been some bad ones recently in the 40k sector, but some good ones.
i've noticed 3 types of plastic too, a dark grey which is very stiff , a light grey thats often flexible and blobbly and a mix of the 2 which is fine.
i'm sure its accidental as I have had this in the same type of box.

the Black templar frames were really poor here, dont knwo if its universal?
Sure they had lots of detail but they were big blocky detail that looked like they were stuck onto the original marine torsos/guns with playdough stensils.

rob_alderman
02-01-2007, 17:20
I have noticed this, I just bought a box of ork Nobz and found them to be much more badly cast than the ones I bought the day they were first released.The heads all have flash that is becoming a pain to remove and the head wearing a helmet with smaller horns is miscast, the cheek-guards are bent in, this is okay for me as it looks different to my older head meaning I can convert it easier.

intellectawe
02-01-2007, 17:26
If GW can find ways to cut costs to keep that bottom line while having the customer base not complain or notice the changes much, they will do it.

Catferret
02-01-2007, 17:27
The best way to improve the quality of models would be to stop Gary Morley sculpting! The worse news is he has been put in charge of training the new sculptors. Such a shame. Some of the new sculptors may have had talent!

I dunno why GW keep him around, I met him at Games Day once and he was one of the rudest people I have ever met. OK, he isn't meant to be in public relations acting as the face of the company but he could at least have tried faking being nice...

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
02-01-2007, 18:18
Wow, the GW haters are in full force. I also have that same warhorse problem. But can you guys really look at the new models that are/have coming/come out (giant, chaplains, ork kommandos, empire generals) and say that they're not as good quality as the stupid tab-on-the-bottom-everyone's-flat stuff that GW used to churn out? As the technology gets better, so do the models. The Sisters of Battle models are old molds anyway. They're not going to be as well done as the new stuff. And sometimes you just get crap with flash on it. I look at those as a hobby challenge, I don't shake my fist at the GW gods for my misfortune. And as has been said, if they're really that bad where you can't do anything with them, GW will normally mail you a replacement free of charge. They sent me a whole sprue a beastmen because I was missing some heads.

I just think all this GW hate is misplaced. Of COURSE they want to make money, they are a business. But they have to balance the price of doing business with keeping their customers happy. We'd all love the products to be cheaper because who likes spending $30 on a box of *******' 20 Night Goblins? But when you buy them, they are yours forever to be used in as many games as you want to be a part of. I say, if you have a problem with GW prices, there is one surefire way to end your suffering.

Stop buying it.

Zerosoul
02-01-2007, 18:39
If GW can find ways to cut costs to keep that bottom line while having the customer base not complain or notice the changes much, they will do it.

This is the Internet. The odds that customers won't complain about any given change is practically nil.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
02-01-2007, 18:54
This is the Internet. The odds that customers won't complain about any given change is practically nil.

Good point.

bertcom1
02-01-2007, 20:50
There's at least 3 parts to quality in terms of GW. Customer service, artistic appeal, and technical quality.

Customer service seems about the same as it has been for years, quite good in sorting out problems, but there is of course the question of whether these problems should be occurring in the first place. It's nice that they sort out mispacked items, but why hasn't the number of mispacked items gone down?

Artistic appeal, well there have been quite ugly looking things released before, some very nice things released before, some ugly looking things released now, and some nice things released now. Possibly the same as always.

Slaaneshi slave seems to mostly be talking about technical quality.

In terms of technical quality, I think that the standard is not as high as it should be, or as high as it was a few years ago.

Sakura has mentioned a difference in the type of plastic. This shouldn't really be happening at all. The plastic used should be consistent, not variable. There could be several reasons why the plastic is variable, such as a change in supplier, or tolerances of machinery, but part of the duties of production staff is to minimise things like that.

Misaligned moulds are a nuisance. For CSM and SM models, the two torso halves have pegs and holes, so they fit together. For models I got several years ago, they lined up perfectly. For models I got recently, they don't line up, meaning I have to cut the pegs off, defeating the point of there being pegs+holes. I have had to do this for all the CSM I bought this year, and at least a third of the SM. This might suggest that the precision of the moulding machines is not as high as it should be.

Design of moulds is also an issue. When mould lines occur, taking off the mould line is often made difficult by the positions of the mould lines on the model. Lines running through high detailed parts are awkward to remove, there is also the difficulty of getting a suitable tool into position.
Vents for metal models also seem to be placed in awkward and odd places, with some leaving a big metal tag that has to be clipped off, then filed.

For metal models, I think that the frequency of mould lines is higher than it was, although the severity of the mould lines is less extreme. This means overall, that more cleaning up work is necessary, although individual models need less of it. Instead of 1 model needing 10mins work, 4 require 3 mins work.

For some of the metal models as well, such as the Exorcist, shape and fit of the pieces is not very good, and I think that far older models such as the metal Chaos Dreadnought fit together more easily, so design hasn't improved much.

Overall, I think that standards have declined slightly in several areas. I don't think that GW are paying enough attention to the quality of their manufacturing, and that's a shame.

insaniak
02-01-2007, 20:54
The best way to improve the quality of models would be to stop Gary Morley sculpting! The worse news is he has been put in charge of training the new sculptors.

That happened at least 5 years ago... he was training new sculptors back when the 3rd Edition Eldar Codex was released, which is why Juan Diaz's Aspect Warriors were so much sillier-looking than anything he has sculpted since.


So far as quality goes, the biggest problem I've seen is that the new plastic GW are using is softer than what they were using in 3rd edition, which makes it easier to damage pieces when cleaning them up, and results in a huge reduction in the crispness of the detail.

Seriously, put a marine torso from the current Tactical or Assault sprue beside a 3rd edition torso, and you'll see a rather noticable difference in the detail.

Karhedron
02-01-2007, 22:53
The plastic models only seem to be getting better, I do think that they are trying to move towards as much plastic as possible and are not bothering to rework metal models towards any higher quality.

I don't think that is true. The new Eldar metal models are exceptional. They are a definite step up on the previous generation in terms of both detail and quality. I have to say that the small pictures in WD don't neccessarily show them to best effect. If you hold the new Reapers next to the previous incarnations for example, you will be amazed at the extra details they have crammed in.

Agamemnon2
02-01-2007, 23:22
Getting way OT here, but I have to ask. I looked at some Tamiya models just a few months ago, and some Dragon. Are the Dragon resin kits comparable to the Forgeworld resin kits?

I think Dragon makes mostly if not exclusively plastic kits. The quality of their plastic parts surpasses FW resin detail quality any day, but comes at the cost of fiddly assembly. A Dragon panzer kit can easily have 500+ parts.

TheEndIsHere
03-01-2007, 00:57
I've noticed the different plastic and I hate it: I've just bought last week a necron battle force and it was a dark gray like darker than the usual dark grey and the models broke, they were plastics but they broke like metal if you touched them... I was removing then from the sprues with clippers and 2 broke and while removing the mold lines I think 9 arms broke...

This sucks luckily my GWs has a the best red shirts in the world... lol

TheEndIsHere

Brushmonkey
03-01-2007, 01:22
I think Dragon makes mostly if not exclusively plastic kits. The quality of their plastic parts surpasses FW resin detail quality any day, but comes at the cost of fiddly assembly. A Dragon panzer kit can easily have 500+ parts.

I won't be getting a Dragon kit then...

Agamemnon2
03-01-2007, 16:15
If you want something easy to build, I recommend a Tamiya kit. It will cost you on par with GW products, but the toolings are better (most of them), and even their 70s moulds are worlds ahead of GW's "top-quality" land raider. Trumpeter is another good brand, their KV series of Soviet tanks is top-notch, easy to assemble and you can get three for the price of one Land Raider.

There's a whole universe of kits out there, and most of them make GW offerings look shoddy in terms of detail and reveals their claims of "superb moulding technology" as the hollow marketing spiel it is.

Sakura
03-01-2007, 18:32
The best way to improve the quality of models would be to stop Gary Morley sculpting! The worse news is he has been put in charge of training the new sculptors. Such a shame. Some of the new sculptors may have had talent!

I dunno why GW keep him around, I met him at Games Day once and he was one of the rudest people I have ever met. OK, he isn't meant to be in public relations acting as the face of the company but he could at least have tried faking being nice...

I don't believe you.
GW wouldnt put the guy responsible for the worst GW models ever in charge!
And why would they dare to use a rude person at an advertising event?
If this was true GW would be making a bad choice for their future.

I base the judgement 'worse GW models ever' in relation to current competition, current standard of metals and current perception

much2much
12-01-2007, 11:34
Oh and standing on a pile of plastic flash is not something someone should try.

One out of ten Empire soldiers would agree with you.



With injection moulding cooling down takes roughly 70% of the cycle time. Trying to reduce this will lower production cost but it will mean balancing on a razorfine edge. Esspecialy hard to reach spot might not get fully shaped because the plastic colled down to much before filling the cavity. This is not to say that it is excusable to sell faulty sprues but it is a quality control thing. On the other hand some things will always slip without insane quality control through. And they don't make a fuss about it when you return a faulty sprue.

Shortening the cool down time might save GW $1000 of electricity over a year. It is not worth fiddling with. It would not reduce cost significantly at all. If they are not producing stuff fast enough they can definitely afford to buy new machines.