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scarletsquig
02-01-2007, 02:04
15 Aug 2007 - New picture, courtesy of Asur.org:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y271/dwarf5/scan0007.jpg

14 Aug 2007 - "Another rumour about the dragons is that there are three different types of dragon. A Young Dragon with all its stats at 5, a Normal Dragon with all its Stats at 6 and a Star Dragon with alll its stats at 7. Heroes get to ride the first one if I remember correctly."

*EDIT* - 1 Aug 2007 - pictures, thanks to Meraklis!

"This dragon is for HE only not the generic plastic dragon, that project is yet to see the light of day!" - 75hastings69

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e84/Zmithy/hedragoniq2.png


"There is a new Dragon for HE, but it is not on all fours, that is a different plastic dragon. The HE one is in a flying position." - 75hastings69

"There are currently four unreleased Dragon types knocking around the studio!
Not a kit to make four dragons...four different dragon kits." - Harry

New LotR Dragon (image courtesy of Ohman, photoshopped for clarity by me):
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/9837/dragonlv9.jpg

"This [Lotr Dragon] was one of the four unreleased dragon types I was talking about." - Harry

Catferret
02-01-2007, 02:13
It is definitely happening but I don't have any further details I'm afraid.

My guess would be they will be released with either Chaos, High Elves or Vampire Counts. These are the next 3 races to be redone and they all use dragons of some kind.

Highborn
02-01-2007, 02:17
I would expect them to be released with High Elves. The High Elves are meant to be 'the' premier dragon race, after all. Besides, Chaos Dragons and Zombie Dragons are too different to be part of a generic dragon kit, I feel.

Catferret
02-01-2007, 02:20
But the plastic giant had all sorts of racial options so it is feasible the dragon could go the same way.

I am inclined to agree that High Elves are the most likely candidates to get dragons with their release though.

Jon_Irenicus
02-01-2007, 03:59
Gah, it´d be great if it´s true, but your title is somewhat misleading :p

The giant got released out of any "major race" release, right? If so, the same could be up with the Dragon (ie not being tied to any particular race)...

Move Fast Hit Low
02-01-2007, 04:47
Son of a bitch, i just bought a HE dragon a few days ago, you have the worst timing in the world scarlet! Oh well, i really hope they dont make a new chaos one either cuz i just finished a conversion for a nurgle one a few hours ago.

bluesky322
02-01-2007, 05:20
i personly like the skinny zombie dragon its cool and evil with all its littly buzzing fly's flying into your mouth and eyes and ears and unmentionable areas

i heard somewere about a skinny wyvern wraped around a rock anyone else know of this

Nazguire
02-01-2007, 08:36
Can you imagine the White Dwarf when this bugger arrives on our shelves? :cries:

I'd imagine it'd be a multi-part plastic kit, complete with heroic elven parts/nasty Chaos parts/festering Vampire Counts parts to make a 'Vaguely different Dragon Every Time (tm)!'

Suicide Messiah
02-01-2007, 08:55
The wyvern is for Azhag. Hes coming out in the second wave of orcs.

Highborn
02-01-2007, 09:21
Son of a bitch, i just bought a HE dragon a few days ago, you have the worst timing in the world scarlet! Oh well, i really hope they dont make a new chaos one either cuz i just finished a conversion for a nurgle one a few hours ago.

Wow ... someone likes his dragons ;) I just dug most of the parts of the old plastic dragon out of my bits box, and can't decide whether to make it a High Elf dragon (more characterful) or a Wood Elf Forest Dragon (will see more use).

Darkhorse
02-01-2007, 10:06
It's associated with the High Elf release, (check the High Elf rumours) being a resculpt for Imrik.
You'll also notice that Asarnil has been withdrawn from the online store in preparation for the release. The new dragon is supposed to be in a quadroped stance (similar to the forgeworld dragon) rather than the upright stance of previous dagons. Watch for Imrik being withdrawn from stores just prior to the new release.

bluesky322
02-01-2007, 10:08
The wyvern is for Azhag. Hes coming out in the second wave of orcs.

so when is this second wave and is there any pics of it because it looks so cool in my minds eye even if i have poor minds eye sight:eyebrows:

Damokles
02-01-2007, 10:34
Scarletsquig, please edit the thread title to include a question mark so as to warn future readers, that no actually new information is included

other than that I think a plastic dragon would be very much in line with the way GW is going with their range

Lab Monkey
02-01-2007, 11:26
It seems to me that race-specific riders will be too hard to accomplish. The kit would simply be too big if it also contained a cool-looking High Elf, Dark Elf, Wood Elf lord.

By the way, I think Chaos and the Undead diserve other dragons. Not with pansy paste-on bits.

75hastings69
02-01-2007, 11:30
It's associated with the High Elf release, (check the High Elf rumours) being a resculpt for Imrik.
You'll also notice that Asarnil has been withdrawn from the online store in preparation for the release. The new dragon is supposed to be in a quadroped stance (similar to the forgeworld dragon) rather than the upright stance of previous dagons. Watch for Imrik being withdrawn from stores just prior to the new release.

There is a new Dragon for HE, but it is not on all fours, that is a different plastic dragon. The HE one is in a flying position.

Achilles
02-01-2007, 11:36
There is a new Dragon for HE, but it is not on all fours, that is a different plastic dragon. The HE one is in a flying position.

So TWO new plastic dragon kits? 1 Imrik, 1 generic????

And how about Karl-Franz....

vampires are cool!
02-01-2007, 12:06
75Hastings69, you seem like the kind of guy who can get his hands on some pics. I can easily say that almost any Warseer here would gladly **** your **** and then **** your feet :D

Paulus
02-01-2007, 12:15
There is a new Dragon for HE, but it is not on all fours, that is a different plastic dragon. The HE one is in a flying position.

Not heard about that one before V. Cool!! :eek:

Harry
02-01-2007, 12:42
There are currently four unreleased Dragon types knocking around the studio!:eek:
Not a kit to make four dragons...four different dragon kits.

EvC
02-01-2007, 12:54
Perhaps indeed, the thread a few months ago pointing to the Dragon in the Mark of Chaos video game flying as being a basis of the next HE Dragon could have been entirely on the mark...

Killshot
02-01-2007, 13:32
One can never have too many dragons! This is great news!!

Muncher666
02-01-2007, 14:18
Is there any formal confirmation of this?

Allan.

Paulus
02-01-2007, 14:27
Is there any formal confirmation of this?

Allan.

GW will not confirm an upcoming major release whilst still promoting another, they want all your hard earned pennies to be spent on Empire at the moment & not saved for Dragon's.

P.S. If Harry & Hasting's both tell you it's happening that's the closest you'll get to formal confirmation until it appears on the GW site.

Muncher666
02-01-2007, 15:30
Thank you, it's most reassuring. My wife wants a dragon in her new army, but she was hoping she could have a more classical style dragon, with a shorter snout and no flaps on the side - and a plastic dragon, assuming that it's not more to her liking, would be much easier to convert. :)

Allan.

Achilles
02-01-2007, 15:43
4 dragons being sighted on the developers desks does not mean all of them will be released.

however.... there is this little nag on my mind about the races page in the 7th edition warhammer book... the last page shows Chaos Dwarfs, Cathay & DRAGONS. maybe GW will awaken these mighty beasts from their slumber? give u rules for trying to slay one, treasure hunts.

and maybe they just want to reclaim the world that the old ones took from them?

mattjgilbert
02-01-2007, 16:10
My thoughts too when I saw them in the 7th Ed rule book. Those three races might just all get an Army Book each this time round. Cool stuff :)

Zodiac
02-01-2007, 18:08
P.S. If Harry & Hasting's both tell you it's happening that's the closest you'll get to formal confirmation until it appears on the GW site.

Thats exactly what I was thinking :D ..

giner
02-01-2007, 18:59
There are currently four unreleased Dragon types knocking around the studio!:eek:
Not a kit to make four dragons...four different dragon kits.
Thanks for the news.

Could you elaborate on this. Are they all 'normal' dragons or are there Chaos and VC dragons in there? If you can't tell us then thats fine you already do a great job with the news and rumours.

bluesky322
02-01-2007, 23:13
[QUOTE=Achilles;1187037]
however.... there is this little nag on my mind about the races page in the 7th edition warhammer book... the last page shows Chaos Dwarfs, Cathay & DRAGONS. QUOTE]

um i cant seem to find this can you give a specific page number and is it only in the brb because i cant find it in the little one

ObiWan
02-01-2007, 23:55
It's on the BRB, I don't have the small one so I can't confirm it isn't there, but given the layout of the books, it's probably not there.:D

Darkhorse
03-01-2007, 00:23
The small rule book sacrifices all the hobby section so you don't get it.
In the BRB it is page 202. I think you also lose the altenative scenarios on pages 248-251.

scarletsquig
03-01-2007, 00:29
So these 4 Dragon kits (way more than I was expecting - feels like asking for a moped and being giving a porsche :D)...

High elf Dragon, Chaos Dragon and Zombie Dragon?

Those 3 sound quite likely, especially considering upcoming army releases.
But what about the fourth? I'm guessing it'll be either a wood elf forest dragon, or a new Karl Franz on Dragon model.

Paulus
03-01-2007, 00:36
So these 4 Dragon kits (way more than I was expecting - feels like asking for a moped and being giving a porsche :D)...

High elf Dragon, Chaos Dragon and Zombie Dragon?

Those 3 sound quite likely, especially considering upcoming army releases.
But what about the fourth? I'm guessing it'll be either a wood elf forest dragon, or a new Karl Franz on Dragon model.

I wouldn't get too excited about seeing all 4 released - can't see that as GW's ethos at the mo seems to be in moving towards kits that can produce a few variants, presumably to provide more shelf space in stores.

Whilst this is pure speculation from me I would guess that the 4 were perhaps different prototypes from different sculptors for review??

Tiluca
03-01-2007, 01:11
4 dragons being sighted on the developers desks does not mean all of them will be released.

however.... there is this little nag on my mind about the races page in the 7th edition warhammer book... the last page shows Chaos Dwarfs, Cathay & DRAGONS. maybe GW will awaken these mighty beasts from their slumber? give u rules for trying to slay one, treasure hunts.

and maybe they just want to reclaim the world that the old ones took from them?

Couldn't have said it better myself !

I really can't wait to see the dragons and i hope Karl franz gets redone with the option to mount a new dragon. I would like to see what the imperial dragon looks like however.

Iron Buddha
03-01-2007, 03:11
While this is exciting, I wouldn't look forward to a dragon "army", because even if it is within the realm of possibilities, it wouldn't be any time in the next 4-5 years. and I would imagine that the very specialty dragons like chaos and zombie will be left as metal models, but they will give you ideas on how to convert them from the new dragons, but I could be wrong.

DeClaw
03-01-2007, 05:49
I don't know about the zombie dragon, but I can see a chaos one done in plastic as a part of a multi-race kit. All it would need is special neck and tail joints so that 2 heads/tail ends can be attached instead of just one, the rest can be done with little do-dakkies or bits.

Anyway if I was to chose 4 dragons they would be elf, empire, zombie and chaos (as all these armies have dragons and are close to the top of the reliese schedual).

snurl
03-01-2007, 06:24
I hope that the release of the new plastic Dragon is accompanied by some new rules as well. One reads of dragons laying waste to entire cities and towns... then look at what a dragon does in WHFB. Somehow they seem a bit underpowered. Unless maybe this could be dealt with by the age and size of the dragon ala D&D, which would open the door for even bigger (or smaller)dragon kits. Just a thought.

Harry
03-01-2007, 06:31
There are currently four unreleased Dragon types knocking around the studio!:eek:
Not a kit to make four dragons...four different dragon kits.

I was including Wyverns when I said "Dragon types". (instead of just saying Dragons.)
Sorry for any confusion. Not my intention to mislead.

DarkWarrior1981
03-01-2007, 07:35
I was including Wyverns when I said "Dragon types". (instead of just saying Dragons.)
Sorry for any confusion. Not my intention to mislead.
One more question, are all of these four kits plastic, metal or mixed?:)

EvC
03-01-2007, 12:32
I hope that the release of the new plastic Dragon is accompanied by some new rules as well. One reads of dragons laying waste to entire cities and towns... then look at what a dragon does in WHFB. Somehow they seem a bit underpowered. Unless maybe this could be dealt with by the age and size of the dragon ala D&D, which would open the door for even bigger (or smaller)dragon kits. Just a thought.

Well if you want a huge city-destroying class of Dragon, just look to Forge World...

Achilles
03-01-2007, 13:01
I was including Wyverns when I said "Dragon types". (instead of just saying Dragons.)
Sorry for any confusion. Not my intention to mislead.

thats ok, any news is Cool... :D
if there is a wyvern amongs them, thats probably Arzagh then?
which still leaves 3 dragons... Imrik, Karl Franz, and a Plastic (to be used as High/Wood/Dark Elf, Chaos, Zombie & Dogs of War?)

any news is good news, harry, and all your comments are always appriciated... even if they are confusing somtimes :p

static grass
03-01-2007, 19:20
Why would they release 3 dragons that could be only used by one(ish) army or character? Wouldn't it be beter to release three dragons with three different poses that could be used by all armies?

You could have three different types: A fire dragon, A lightning dragon and A magic dragon (as three examples from the big red book* take from the big red book itself). Each dragon could still have bits if you wanted a high elf magic dragon or chaos magic dragon. I dunno just sounds the most sensible to me :)

Zzarchov
03-01-2007, 19:48
Or they could go back the the fourth ed dragon rules.

Anyone could have a riderless dragon.

Red/Orange (fire)
Green was Acid
Black was Poison
Blue was Lightning
White was Frost

All it really did was different breath weapons.

Sandlemad
03-01-2007, 19:55
Maybe GW will awaken these mighty beasts from their slumber? give u rules for trying to slay one, treasure hunts.
and maybe they just want to reclaim the world that the old ones took from them?

See, now, this I like the sound of. An army of dragons is an unpleasant concept, much like an army of giants. Actually, whatever happened to the rumours of a "Land of the Giants" campaign book, like Lustria?

Back on topic, these scenario rules would be most welcome on the other hand. One of the first things I did after getting into WH was trying to set up a "Slayers vs. Dragon" scenario. Didn't really work out, I couldn't balance it and make it fun at the same time. A proper GW attempt could be fun.
Also, I think the dragons were one of the races created or at least lifted to sentience by the Old Ones. Don't hold me to that though, I know the dragon ogres were around before.

megastar242
03-01-2007, 20:08
I have heard that it will be a kit with different heads/bodies , to make only 2 types of dragons (Wood Elf and High Elf). This kit will be simmilar to the giant kit. I imagine there will also be a kit to make an "evil" dragon (probably chaos and VC) This i suppose coincides with what Harry had said about having 4 dragons kicking around the studios.

M.

Palatine Katinka
03-01-2007, 20:36
I imagine there will also be a kit to make an "evil" dragon (probably chaos and VC)

What? No Dark Elf? :cries:

giner
03-01-2007, 20:42
Dark elves would probably be in the HE/WE dragon kit. The elven dragons aren't really that different to each other, in look at least.

Jonahmaul
03-01-2007, 21:43
If there were an evil & good dragon kit released you could always mix & match depending on how the sprues are constructed to convert a cool dragon though this might end up in you having to buy two dragon kits which isnt very economical (until we know more about these kits its impossible at the moment!!)

static grass
04-01-2007, 08:34
Now that's not a bad idea.

Achilles
04-01-2007, 13:14
Also, I think the dragons were one of the races created or at least lifted to sentience by the Old Ones. Don't hold me to that though, I know the dragon ogres were around before.

Dragons were the only race in the warhammer world present BEFORE the coming of the Old Ones. they are the true sentient inhabitants of the warhammer world, and were never influenced by the old ones. at least not directly.
Dragon ogres, if I remember correctly, are a result of the collapse of the polar gates and the Warping chaos energies that emerged from them.

an Evil/Good Dragon set would make little sence since it is just as easy for GW to make one set with all the bits, but gives them only 1 box to sell... that way they would sell the same dragon to VC, DE, HE, WE, and Chaos players who would all pay for extra bits they never realy need...

I still think the other 2 dragon kits are Imrik & Karl Franz... as the rumoured 'Expert level' Kits, as Arzhag probably is

Paulus
04-01-2007, 13:21
I think we'll only see one boxed generic Dragon set with parts to make all types in the same fashion as the plastic giant.

I can see White Dwarf hyping it for the next few years - why buy one Dragon when you could have 17!

Achilles
04-01-2007, 13:24
I can see White Dwarf hyping it for the next few years - why buy one Dragon when you could have 17!

thats where Army book: Cheesy Dragon List:cheese: comes in !!! :p

scarletsquig
04-01-2007, 15:43
If we do get warhammer armies: dragon kingdoms, I want some dorky new bright red/yellow "fire-goblin" type to go with them, that have an even worse stat line than gnoblars.

Nobgoblars or something - and the background could have them sweating petrol that dragons spend most of their waking lives licking off in order to refuel.

And the new dragon kit could have special equipment like "nobgoblar lick stick" - just a bunch of nobgoblars tied to a stick that the dragon uses to make it's breath weapon more powerful.

In other words, I can't seriously see how an all-dragon army list would work, in terms of background or playability... ogres were bad enough.

Darkhorse
04-01-2007, 16:10
Karl Franz + Dragon??? Griffon surely.:confused:

Catferret
04-01-2007, 16:12
Karl Franz + Dragon??? Griffon surely.:confused:

Karl Franz may now be mounted on The Imperial Dragon.

Wickerman71
05-01-2007, 06:54
It would not take much effort to take the existing Karl Franz & slap him on a plastic Dragon. If GW really are trying to conserve on shelf space then a kit for Karl Franz on a Dragon makes no sence. When you already have a smaller kit for him on a Griffon (that can be used as a regular Empire General BTW) and could easly mix it with a Plastic Dragon.

Achilles
05-01-2007, 10:57
yes but there is a rumoured 'Expert Line' of models coming up, the first of which supposedly is Arzhag on Wyvern.

It would make sence for GW to do the same for Karl Franz and Imrik the Dragonprince. Dragons always sell wel, regardless of army use. And for Expert models... well a dragon makes a nice piece. Maybe Malekith will get te same treatment when the Dark Elves come out.

Wickerman71
05-01-2007, 13:13
Keep in Mind I'm not saying that Karl Franz will not recieve a new model, but if they where to do him I'd put my money on him to remain on a Griffon. Hopefully this time one that doesn't look like an over sized battle turkey. Examples you list such as Arzhag, Imrik & Malekith could all be used as run of the mill lords on wurms which would see more use & appeal than a single SC option. Heck I suspect the ony reason the Karl was given the Dragon option was to make the Dragon kit appealing to Empire players.

bluesky322
05-01-2007, 17:11
i might try a dragon with my empire list because when i do a dragon i dont put a rider on it so that it may be used elswere such as my unridden vampire dragon usually i only use it with blood dragons but i may one day put a voncarstien or something on it

nightcrawler
05-01-2007, 21:05
I'd love to see the return of my wonderful white dragon from 4th-5th edition. Freezing units in place so I can get an extra couple of shots at them was wonderful with my high elf army.... of course it made for a boring game for my opponent... I wonder why they discontinued them... :)

Vogon
07-01-2007, 06:56
Hi there.

I just stumbled across this thread and have a question.

Harry when you say dragon "types" were you by any chance including War Hydras in that (big ass lizzard type thing)? The existing one I think could do with an overhaul.

Cheers

Vogon

Deathjester
07-01-2007, 09:46
I don't believe so, dragons are bigger, and have wings.

Zzarchov
09-01-2007, 00:46
Just flipping through WD 186 (long story) and saw the Ad for talisman "Dragon Tower"

Which included a Plastic dragon, of the same size and appearance of the one currently being used by Games Workshop.


So if they could have a plastic dragon 12 years ago, why not now?

Catferret
09-01-2007, 00:52
They do have a plastic Dragon just now. It's that same one... It is also the basis for all current Dragons except Wood Elf and Galrauch. A couple of metal bits to replace claws, heads and tails.

Tastyfish
11-01-2007, 15:08
Is the wrapped around a rock wyvern Azhag's or is that the generic wyvern kit (or are the two the same)?

Makaber
22-01-2007, 18:06
The generic wyvern kit does not wrap around a rock in any way, so I am assuming you're talking about the new Azhag thing, or something entirely different alltogether (like a model from a different manufacturer or something). As far as I know, there's no released pictures of the Azhag kit, so I would be very interested in seeing what you are talking about.

As for Dragon Ogres, I believe they've been around pre-gatecrash, but don't quote it on me. Yes it seems odd since they're an amalgam of dragon and ogre, but I believe they're very, very ancient indeed.

Now, onto topic, the plastic dragon. My sources of rumors told me a while ago (half a year or more) that Trish Morrison had made a dragon sculpt on her own spare time, and had brought it to the studio to show off her work. However, the guys there liked it so much that they decided to use the sculpt for something, and were going to make a plastic kit out of it. I am assuming this is it, then. If it's the same thing, it's supposedly very serpentine and elengant, and a very nice sculpt (if I recall correctly).

Paulus
22-01-2007, 18:17
From what I can gather 2 Wyvern's have been made, one is due to be released & the other is the one with it's tail wrapped around a rock.

The one with it's tail wrapped around a rock has had serious mould problems & may not be released it may be passed to Forge World.

I know that the one with it's tail wrapped around a rock exists because 1) various reliable & trustworthy people on this site know of it's existence & 2) My friend has seen it, he is a red shirt, however since I have known him from being 5 & am now going on 26 I really doubt that he would make it up (especially as he was the one who brought it up, I never even mentioned it).

75hastings69
22-01-2007, 19:21
Now, onto topic, the plastic dragon. My sources of rumors told me a while ago (half a year or more) that Trish Morrison had made a dragon sculpt on her own spare time, and had brought it to the studio to show off her work. However, the guys there liked it so much that they decided to use the sculpt for something, and were going to make a plastic kit out of it. I am assuming this is it, then. If it's the same thing, it's supposedly very serpentine and elengant, and a very nice sculpt (if I recall correctly).

This Dragon (Trish's) is the one I am led to believe is to be the plastic Imperial Dragon.

Paulus
22-01-2007, 20:16
This Dragon (Trish's) is the one I am led to believe is to be the plastic Imperial Dragon.

Is this the plastic kit you've been refering to for a while Hasting's or is this purely intended as The Imperial Dragon?

You wouldn't know of a rough time frame for release also would you?

Cheers,

Paulus

Hobgoblyn
23-01-2007, 18:46
First, it would be be best if there was a single dragon kit that one could make all the various dragons out of (Undead and Wyvern might be hard) and it would be good if Dragons were made available as a rare choice for all armies. This way everyone could have access to them just like the Giants.

Second, I would like to see amongst the conversion parts the ability to make them into a Lyuu/Ryu Dragon (Chinese/Japanese dragon) which would basically require a frill that would fit onto the back of the neck and cat-fish like whiskers (you wouldn't put the wings on this one).

But, overall the goal should be to have a single kit, but make it so that everyone will be able to field them and likely everyone's will look a different much like the Giant kit or Imperial Commander kit allowed. The riders can be included in their own blister backs. In fact, if done correctly one could well take any cavalry person and stick then on the dragon. There are already riders for HE, WE, DE, Empire, Chaos, Orcs, Goblins, Lizardmen, Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings and even Hobgoblins. There are even Arabian riders in DoW if I recall correctly. Only Dwarfs, Ogres and Skaven are left out. (Well, Cathay, Ind, and Lustria too, but...). But that's assuming you even need a rider, the dragons should be Rare choices fieldable by themselves.

75hastings69
23-01-2007, 18:52
What you are asking for Hobgoblyn is waaaay to much. You want a kit that wil make a dragon for all armies (13 at the minute) plus coversion parts to make an oriental dragon! The only way this will happen is with a plastic box that costs 100+ and has 14 different bodies, 14 different heads etc.

Also getting most armies to field dragons just doesn't fit in with the fluff at all, if GW do decide on this (purely to sell a dragon to each and every WFB player for his army) I will be most pissed off!!!

The plastic dragon I am talking about above is intended to be the Imperial Dragon (first and foremost), or so I am led to believe. However, as I have already posted elsewhere it will contain different/alternate parts, NOT repeat NOT to make 13 different kinds of Dragon, but just to make the dragon more individual to each modlers needs. I sadly DO NOT know even a rough timescale for release, and the original timescale I had has changed that much that it isn't even worth looking at!!!!

Paulus
23-01-2007, 19:02
First, it would be be best if there was a single dragon kit that one could make all the various dragons out of (Undead and Wyvern might be hard) and it would be good if Dragons were made available as a rare choice for all armies. This way everyone could have access to them just like the Giants.

Second, I would like to see amongst the conversion parts the ability to make them into a Lyuu/Ryu Dragon (Chinese/Japanese dragon) which would basically require a frill that would fit onto the back of the neck and cat-fish like whiskers (you wouldn't put the wings on this one).

But, overall the goal should be to have a single kit, but make it so that everyone will be able to field them and likely everyone's will look a different much like the Giant kit or Imperial Commander kit allowed. The riders can be included in their own blister backs. In fact, if done correctly one could well take any cavalry person and stick then on the dragon. There are already riders for HE, WE, DE, Empire, Chaos, Orcs, Goblins, Lizardmen, Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings and even Hobgoblins. There are even Arabian riders in DoW if I recall correctly. Only Dwarfs, Ogres and Skaven are left out. (Well, Cathay, Ind, and Lustria too, but...). But that's assuming you even need a rider, the dragons should be Rare choices fieldable by themselves.

Bloody hell Hobgoblyn, you don't want much do you! :p


What you are asking for Hobgoblyn is waaaay to much. You want a kit that wil make a dragon for all armies (13 at the minute) plus coversion parts to make an oriental dragon! The only way this will happen is with a plastic box that costs 100+ and has 14 different bodies, 14 different heads etc.

Also getting most armies to field dragons just doesn't fit in with the fluff at all, if GW do decide on this (purely to sell a dragon to each and every WFB player for his army) I will be most pissed off!!!

The plastic dragon I am talking about above is intended to be the Imperial Dragon (first and foremost), or so I am led to believe. However, as I have already posted elsewhere it will contain different/alternate parts, NOT repeat NOT to make 13 different kinds of Dragon, but just to make the dragon more individual to each modlers needs. I sadly DO NOT know even a rough timescale for release, and the original timescale I had has changed that much that it isn't even worth looking at!!!!

Agreed on the cost Hasting's it would be way too expensive, it's just not practical.

I would also be a tad annoyed if all armies were allowed Dragon's, off the top of my head neither Skaven nor Bretonnian's should have access to Dragon's.

As for the time scale, I thought if you don't ask you don't get, cheer's for answering though, that alone is appreciated.

Hobgoblyn
23-01-2007, 19:11
That's quite an overexaggeration...

You'd need 1 body (current dragons are not all that far apart), 1-2 sets of back legs (whether it is on all fours or standing, the back legs will be about the same), 3-4 different sets of front legs for poses, 2 different tails, 2-3 different heads and the wings.

And then a sprue of 'accessory' parts such as horns, whiskers, saddle, etc.

Overall, no more than was included with the Giant.

Paulus
23-01-2007, 19:25
That's quite an overexaggeration...

You'd need 1 body (current dragons are not all that far apart), 1-2 sets of back legs (whether it is on all fours or standing, the back legs will be about the same), 3-4 different sets of front legs for poses, 2 different tails, 2-3 different heads and the wings.

And then a sprue of 'accessory' parts such as horns, whiskers, saddle, etc.

Overall, no more than was included with the Giant.

Chaos Dragon would need a completely different looking body, if Galruch is the design of Chaos Dragon's now rather than Baudros.

If more like Baudros then a single body for all Dragons which has a joint that an additional neck & head could be fitted to, effectively ruining the kit for all non Chaos players as it would have a nasty join to hide.

I appreciate what your saying Hobgoblyn & would love to agree with you but I think you are MASSIVELY underestimating what would be involved in effectively pulling that sort of kit off.

bluesky322
23-01-2007, 19:48
whats wrong with letting him want that its not like its very likly to be the case personaly i like the idea not the price but the idea is very nice

Hobgoblyn
23-01-2007, 19:50
Oh, right... Chaos Dragon has 2 heads. For some reason I was thinking it was a large horned red dragon...

Anyway, but even if the multi-head one is out you still have Frost, Storm, Fire, Forest and Swamp Dragon... and maybe not EVERY army can field them without it seeming out of place, but a good number of them should, again just like the Giant.

(Skaven would be out of place, but I could see some sort of silver or white holy/mithril dragon being used by Brets)

Paulus
23-01-2007, 19:51
whats wrong with letting him want that its not like its very likly to be the case personaly i like the idea not the price but the idea is very nice

The idea would be lovely, the price would be scary, but live the dream you never know - hee hee :p

Paulus
23-01-2007, 19:56
Oh, right... Chaos Dragon has 2 heads. For some reason I was thinking it was a large horned red dragon...

Anyway, but even if the multi-head one is out you still have Frost, Storm, Fire, Forest and Swamp Dragon... and maybe not EVERY army can field them without it seeming out of place, but a good number of them should, again just like the Giant.

(Skaven would be out of place, but I could see some sort of silver or white holy/mithril dragon being used by Brets)

Fair enough if you didn't realise that with Chaos. :D

I'm sure the kit will have a few different heads, horns & other trinkets like the giant. The other things tend to be more related to the paint job on the Dragon.

Only reason I would say a Dragon wouldn't fit with Bretonnian's is that horrible little habbit that knights have of attempting to kill them. ;)

Ender Shadowkin
23-01-2007, 19:57
That's quite an overexaggeration...

You'd need 1 body (current dragons are not all that far apart), 1-2 sets of back legs (whether it is on all fours or standing, the back legs will be about the same), 3-4 different sets of front legs for poses, 2 different tails, 2-3 different heads and the wings.

And then a sprue of 'accessory' parts such as horns, whiskers, saddle, etc.

Overall, no more than was included with the Giant.

I think your also missing the rider issue. I doubt they would sell something that required you to buy a bit or some other piece to complete the model. Thus if you made such a generic kit you would need a bunch of very different riders, some of which would be wasted. Its one thing to throw in some elf proto types which may share some legs and have enough parts that clever people can easily reasonable convert to high, dark, or wood elves. throwing in Chaos warriors, chaos wizards, orcs, and vampires would just be too much.

Hobgoblyn
23-01-2007, 20:14
Do you need a specific dragon rider model?

I haven't had any opportunity to test it before, but I was under the impression that cavarly had roughly a fixed size. So your Empire or Chaos knight would fit. So would a Dark Elf Cold One rider or BeastMaster. Or a Wood Elf Hawkrider. If I wanted a Hobgoblin, I pick up Ghazzack Khan or Oglah Khan.

Hagraz
23-01-2007, 21:11
when harry talked about dragon types could it be the LOTR one listed in Legions of Middle-earth :)

Paulus
23-01-2007, 21:22
when harry talked about dragon types could it be the LOTR one listed in Legions of Middle-earth :)

I'm almost certain that he was refering specifically to Warhammer Dragons.

Harry is usually very careful with how he words things & never mentioned LOTR.

Ender Shadowkin
23-01-2007, 21:55
Do you need a specific dragon rider model?

I haven't had any opportunity to test it before, but I was under the impression that cavarly had roughly a fixed size. So your Empire or Chaos knight would fit. So would a Dark Elf Cold One rider or BeastMaster. Or a Wood Elf Hawkrider. If I wanted a Hobgoblin, I pick up Ghazzack Khan or Oglah Khan.

Well yeah you do, If your gonna make somebody shell out $50 (25 quid ;) )for a model, it will need to be complete. Forcing all the uneducated masses to figure out what other piece they need is not realalistic and would result in a lot of ill will. That's not saying you can by it for something its not intended for and convert it however you like. I'm sure you can get out some green stuff and your hobby knife and convert it to any of the dragons, you just may need to make another bits order, which is exacly what your proposeing anyway if you need to get another rider.

Hobgoblyn
23-01-2007, 22:10
I am just trying to propose a way that one could make a single dragon kit that could be put into DoW which could be a hot seller compared to what we have now which is a High Elf Dragon, a Wood Elf Dragon, a Dark Elf dragon, none of which are very different from one another and all only work with a specific character, no Empire dragon, some factions that could reasonably field a Dragon with no access to one... and no one has the Frost Dragon even though there are still things to counter it...

So if you put a specific rider with the dragon, which race do you make it? Or do you include 5 different riders in the kit? (which reduces the number of conversion options for the dragon itself).

Instead you could make the dragon fieldable with no rider as a Rare option normally and include an optional saddle if you wanted to mount your army commander on it or perhaps just stick a random cavarly person to show its loyalty to a specific army. If you are going to put your Lord on it chances are you bought that model seperately anyway.

sulla
24-01-2007, 03:40
I am just trying to propose a way that one could make a single dragon kit that could be put into DoW which could be a hot seller compared to what we have now which is a High Elf Dragon, a Wood Elf Dragon, a Dark Elf dragon, none of which are very different from one another and all only work with a specific character, no Empire dragon, some factions that could reasonably field a Dragon with no access to one... and no one has the Frost Dragon even though there are still things to counter it...

So if you put a specific rider with the dragon, which race do you make it? Or do you include 5 different riders in the kit? (which reduces the number of conversion options for the dragon itself).

Instead you could make the dragon fieldable with no rider as a Rare option normally and include an optional saddle if you wanted to mount your army commander on it or perhaps just stick a random cavarly person to show its loyalty to a specific army. If you are going to put your Lord on it chances are you bought that model seperately anyway.

You could sell the dragon 'naked' but convertable to be any of the coloured varieties of dragon, then as you release plastic generals for armies who are allowed ridden dragons, package them with a saddle and legs to mount your HE/DE/WE/Vampire on the dragon. (For chaos, since it requires a 2 headed dragon, it may be simpler to just release a new dragon ridden by van Horstimm (or whatever his name is). Once plastic chaos knights come out, it will be easy enough to convert him probably.

Jonahmaul
24-01-2007, 09:00
Allowing all armies access to Dragon's is a terrible idea & doesn't fit the fluff at all. Equally allowing all armies access to the Giant was a terrible idea, why would Dwarfs, for example, suddenly decide that they want to be mates with Giants when they've had so many batter their kin when allied with greenskins?!?! It just doesn't make sense. It is easier to see why armies would have access to Dragons than Giants but still think they should be limited otherwise armies start losing their uniqueness.

The Dark One
24-01-2007, 09:43
Allowing all armies access to Dragon's is a terrible idea & doesn't fit the fluff at all. Equally allowing all armies access to the Giant was a terrible idea, why would Dwarfs, for example, suddenly decide that they want to be mates with Giants when they've had so many batter their kin when allied with greenskins?!?! It just doesn't make sense. It is easier to see why armies would have access to Dragons than Giants but still think they should be limited otherwise armies start losing their uniqueness.


last time i checked dwarfs can't hire a giant, nor can high elves, wood elves or bretonnia (possibly more can't).
i have just checked it only 6 armies can hire a giant and 3 have a giant in there list

i agree about the dragons, not every army should be able to have one

Hellebore
24-01-2007, 13:06
Perhaps they'll just do a plastic 'general' style sprue, for each dragon riding army, that comes with a plastic dragon.

It's only chaos, Empire, and the 3 elvses that can have 'em - so that's 5 sprues of characters (and if you get a 'general' sprue for each army, then they wouldn't even need to make a new one, just package it with that one).

Hellebore

The Dark One
24-01-2007, 14:14
Vampire Counts and Dogs of War have dragons

BlazeXI
24-01-2007, 15:31
The Vampire Counts dragon does differ from a regular one. So does the Chaos dragon.

Empire, Dogs of War and Elfs it is then. 5 armies for the potential plastic kit.

Jonahmaul
24-01-2007, 15:49
last time i checked dwarfs can't hire a giant, nor can high elves, wood elves or bretonnia (possibly more can't).
i have just checked it only 6 armies can hire a giant and 3 have a giant in there list

i agree about the dragons, not every army should be able to have one

I thought that everybody who had access to DoW could have a giant? And don't all lists have the DoW option as a Rare choice?

BlazeXI
24-01-2007, 15:55
I thought that everybody who had access to DoW could have a giant? And don't all lists have the DoW option as a Rare choice?

Empire and Orcs&Goblins don't, actually...

Jonahmaul
24-01-2007, 16:03
O&G have the Giant as a Rare choice anyway but you are correct about DoW not being there. Is this the same in the latest Dwarf book? ie are GW actually going to start removing DoW as an option from army lists? If they are I will be a very happy man as I really dislike the option - 'oh look, I've got this army & they're very good at this thing but not so good at this thing so rather than just playing to my armies strengths I'll take something not in my army list to help me'!

metro_gnome
24-01-2007, 16:13
chaos dwarfs cannot take DoW Giants either...

Shallowain
24-01-2007, 16:17
DoW currently have no access to a regular dragon, they have a dragon riding exiled high elf listed under regiments of renown. but they have NO regular dragon. And, he can only fielded by High Elves, Wood Elves, Empire, Lizardmen or pure DoW armies.

Arhalien
24-01-2007, 16:18
Not sure if I'm correct about this but doesn;t the DOW list say which armies can take certain choices? There would therefore be no need to print it as an option in individual army books.

Shallowain
24-01-2007, 16:36
Not sure if I'm correct about this but doesn;t the DOW list say which armies can take certain choices? There would therefore be no need to print it as an option in individual army books.

correct, but the generic DoW list specifies this in the rules, how to create a pure DoW Army. The named regiments of renown have the restrictions listed in their respective entry

Ender Shadowkin
24-01-2007, 17:23
DoW currently have no access to a regular dragon, they have a dragon riding exiled high elf listed under regiments of renown. but they have NO regular dragon. And, he can only fielded by High Elves, Wood Elves, Empire, Lizardmen or pure DoW armies.

Hey Asrail isn't exiled ;) He just gets around a little more than the other Calidorans.

Paulus
24-01-2007, 17:24
O&G have the Giant as a Rare choice anyway but you are correct about DoW not being there. Is this the same in the latest Dwarf book? ie are GW actually going to start removing DoW as an option from army lists? If they are I will be a very happy man as I really dislike the option - 'oh look, I've got this army & they're very good at this thing but not so good at this thing so rather than just playing to my armies strengths I'll take something not in my army list to help me'!

I agree completely, I've felt that way since DoW were first introduced.

Chaos suddenly has access to missile weapons & Dwarf's to cavalry (these are just what comes to mind) removing 2 distinct themes & tactical challenges.

BlazeXI
24-01-2007, 19:51
I agree completely, I've felt that way since DoW were first introduced.

Chaos suddenly has access to missile weapons & Dwarf's to cavalry (these are just what comes to mind) removing 2 distinct themes & tactical challenges.

Access to flyers. Was it Birdmen of Catarazza? Can't find them in the Online store.

The Dark One
24-01-2007, 19:56
Access to flyers. Was it Birdmen of Catarazza? Can't find them in the Online store.

they have been discontinued

Hobgoblyn
24-01-2007, 20:01
Access to flyers. Was it Birdmen of Catarazza? Can't find them in the Online store.

He said cavalry, not flyers...
Dwarves have access to a number of cavalry units in DoW in both the main DoW list and in RoR. They can't use Oglah Khan's boyz for obvious reasons, but there are a few others they can use.

Sandlemad
24-01-2007, 20:04
I agree completely, I've felt that way since DoW were first introduced.

Chaos suddenly has access to missile weapons & Dwarf's to cavalry (these are just what comes to mind) removing 2 distinct themes & tactical challenges.

Really though, how many people actually take DoW solely for the rules benefit? As in, make up a regiment of pikemen for their orc army, or whatever the case may be.
I have yet to meet anyone who has used DoW for anything other than fluff reasons or for representing homemade units, such as ogres to represent kislev bear riders in a themed kislev-empire force or duellists to represent witch-hunters.
I am not a regular tourney-goer, so I can't speak for people using them simply for filling gaps but I have yet to encounter it. Seems more trouble than it's worth and many people barely realise the option is there.

However, I am firmly opposed to adding dragons as a DoW unit, they're a damn sight rarer than giants.
And if I may ask, what's up with Asarnil the Dragonlord? Is he exiled? Is he fighting for gold or a mutual benefit type thing? Basically, what's his background, I haven't found it anywhere.

Shallowain
24-01-2007, 20:58
I look for the background tomorrow, I have the old DoW supplement for 5th edition.

Paulus
24-01-2007, 21:29
I have yet to meet anyone who has used DoW for anything other than fluff reasons or for representing homemade units, such as ogres to represent kislev bear riders in a themed kislev-empire force or duellists to represent witch-hunters.

I agree with you the wouldn't exploit it & I do like them being used in the manner you suggest.

I remember seeing an entire DoW army (can't remember where) that was used as a Tilean army in a tournament & won best themed army.

You are probably fully aware though, there are plenty of gamers about who like to exploit anything that will help them win. I've seen loads of threads with people saying about using the Besieger's for Chaos armies "because they have no missile troops".

Sandlemad
24-01-2007, 23:03
You are probably fully aware though, there are plenty of gamers about who like to exploit anything that will help them win. I've seen loads of threads with people saying about using the Besieger's for Chaos armies "because they have no missile troops".

Absolutely, Bronzino's Galloper Guns are fairly widely recommended also.
Actually, I find Regiments of Renown tend to be accepted less than normal DoW. Possibly they're viewed as being closer to special characters, which in turn are unpalatable to this sort of gamer.

The big obstacle to widespread use of powergaming with DoW for other armies is to my mind the cost. The Besiegers you mentioned are something like two pounds each and only available through mail-order.
I'm assembling a DoW force and due to the costs of an entirely metal range, I'm more or less entirely using combinations of the Bretonnian and Empire ranges.
Perhaps I'm being unpleasant but I doubt those who would use DoW solely for a tournament advantage would care to convert up their units to a large degree.;)

BlazeXI
25-01-2007, 06:51
He said cavalry, not flyers...
Dwarves have access to a number of cavalry units in DoW in both the main DoW list and in RoR. They can't use Oglah Khan's boyz for obvious reasons, but there are a few others they can use.

I know what he has said. What I added is that some armies due to DoW got also access to flyers in form od the Birdmen.

Tastyfish
25-01-2007, 07:55
Perhaps I'm being unpleasant but I doubt those who would use DoW solely for a tournament advantage would care to convert up their units to a large degree.;)
I think its the opposite - afterall how can you complain that I'm a powergamer and care nothing for the fluff if I've converted up some units specially for this army - they just happen to 'counts as' the galloper guns (enslaved/chaos dwarfs quite often, sometimes enchanted bolt throwers or battlemages) or ironguts (arcane constructs, miscelaneous beasts) to use dark elf examples.

...I mean Dragons?

will23
28-01-2007, 09:10
new dragon,
that'd be nice!
doable for any race i gues...

Stormtrooper Clark
28-01-2007, 10:38
Peronsally it shold be in my opinion:

High Elf
Dark Elf (If needs be, just be the HE one with different paintscehe and add on though i'd be angry)
Chaos
Vampire Counts

It would also be nice if they came with there own commander for each Race (If so, don't you DARE miss out DE GW!)

Dspankdo
28-01-2007, 10:46
I think it would be to difficult to have all four types of dragons in the same box, perhaps a DE/HE dragon and then a box for the chaos one and then a box for the zombie one.

DeClaw
28-01-2007, 11:04
I think that as a company reaches a certain size it will prefeer to make things out of plastic rather than metal and it is only the starting costs that prohibit smaller and newer companys from doing such. Because of this I think we will see a plasic dragon for each race that can take them, now that GW has the tech.

Marovingean
28-01-2007, 11:29
Yes, but the reason lots of plastic are being released by GW is for the useablilty of the gamer. It's actually easier (if my memory serves correct) for them to produce metal, but i may be wrong

Harry
28-01-2007, 13:33
Easier and cheaper. The initial costs for each mould for a plastic sprue are huge. They have to be confident of selling a boat load of units to see profit in plastic.

static grass
28-01-2007, 13:47
Easier and cheaper. The initial costs for each mould for a plastic sprue are huge. They have to be confident of selling a boat load of units to see profit in plastic.

hurrah for bound dragons!

Seriously dwarfs need their bound dragons back.

Unless of course mean if they do a good sculpt everyone will buy them ;)

Tastyfish
28-01-2007, 13:49
I'm not so sure anymore - the Decam article that was posted here a bit mentioned that it takes 10x less to create a mould (less than two days rather than most of a month) and there is a lot less wear and tear whilst doing so. If we ignore the original investment of the machines for the time being, I don't think its quite as expensive to make a plastic model as it used to (especially with regards to time, which was one of the big things - they were limited to a set number of plastic sets a year based of time rather than cost).

silverstu
28-01-2007, 18:57
hurrah for bound dragons!

Seriously dwarfs need their bound dragons back.



I second that..
might be a bit big as a base for a slayer...:D

Hagraz
28-01-2007, 20:54
They might have 2 different dragon types in there one for HE and DE
and then one for Chaos and undead :)

ediblespread
28-01-2007, 21:16
I'm not so sure anymore - the Decam article that was posted here a bit mentioned that it takes 10x less to create a mould (less than two days rather than most of a month) and there is a lot less wear and tear whilst doing so. If we ignore the original investment of the machines for the time being, I don't think its quite as expensive to make a plastic model as it used to (especially with regards to time, which was one of the big things - they were limited to a set number of plastic sets a year based of time rather than cost).

But what you also have to remember is that once they have paid back the cost of the mould (not sure how much they cost, someone said 1000 at some time), the plastic is pretty much free. Really, as much of a deal as they make about plastic prices rising, tis still quite cheap. So 1000/50 is... 20 dragons (assuming they are priced at 50). After that, its free cash for them. Even if its 10,000, thats still only 200 drags.

Paulus
28-01-2007, 22:22
But what you also have to remember is that once they have paid back the cost of the mould (not sure how much they cost, someone said 1000 at some time), the plastic is pretty much free. Really, as much of a deal as they make about plastic prices rising, tis still quite cheap. So 1000/50 is... 20 dragons (assuming they are priced at 50). After that, its free cash for them. Even if its 10,000, thats still only 200 drags.

My very rough guess based on the Giant is that it will either be the same price or slightly more expensive so 25 to 30.

Although my guess is based upon never having actually seen the model nor having any idea as to the size or complexity of the kit. ;)

Bael
29-01-2007, 02:33
But what you also have to remember is that once they have paid back the cost of the mould (not sure how much they cost, someone said 1000 at some time), the plastic is pretty much free. Really, as much of a deal as they make about plastic prices rising, tis still quite cheap. So 1000/50 is... 20 dragons (assuming they are priced at 50). After that, its free cash for them. Even if its 10,000, thats still only 200 drags.
Not sure who said 1000 for a plastic mould, but it is significantly more than that. I have been told the Bretonnian moulds cost 36k, and the Land Raider ones cost 250k. Worth noting that these were done on older tech, but I believe that the moulds are still pricey.

I have no idea how these costs are broke down by the way, or if they are accurate, but if a plastic mould costs as little as 1000 I would be amazed.

dominic_carrillo
29-01-2007, 02:56
i hope they make a new dragon, the current ones suck

Highborn
29-01-2007, 03:46
But what you also have to remember is that once they have paid back the cost of the mould (not sure how much they cost, someone said 1000 at some time), the plastic is pretty much free. Really, as much of a deal as they make about plastic prices rising, tis still quite cheap. So 1000/50 is... 20 dragons (assuming they are priced at 50). After that, its free cash for them.

Until you factor in:

- Plastics (those dragons aren't made of air)
- Sculptors (those dragons don't sculpt themselves)
- Materials (to design those dragons with)
- Computers (for the designers to refine their sculpts on)
- IT Technicians (to keep those computers running)
- Managers (to decide to make dragons)
- High level Managers & Directors (to decide to keep making WHFB)
- Marketing (to make people want to buy the dragons)
- Writers (to write the rules for the dragons)
- Illustrators (to draw pretty pictures of the dragon)
- Painters (to paint up that dragon)
- Photographers (to take photos of that painted dragon)
- Graphic Artists (to put those photos, illustration and text into a book)
- Lawyers (to make sure noone copies anything the sculptors, writers, illustrators, painters, graphic artists or photographers do)
- Printers (to print what the writers and illustrators have come up with)
- Building costs (Noone likes working without electricity, water)
- Rent (for that building you have the electricity, water, etc going to)
- Insurance (in case said building burns down)
- HR (to manage all the sculptors, IT technicians, managers, marketing, writers)
- Transport (to get the dragon to the store)
- Staff (to sell the dragon)
- Managers (to make sure the staff sell the dragon and don't go off for 8-hour long potty breaks)



Those dragons don't seem so cheap to make anymore, do they?

laughingman
29-01-2007, 05:33
it may cost alot, but there in business to make only and if they don't make money they would go out of business, so they wouldn't make them unless they would make them money.

They may not be making as much money as they would like, but they are still making money.

Highborn
29-01-2007, 05:48
I have no doubt that they'd make money off a plastic dragon. It's ediblespread's assumption that GW make $85 off every dragon they sell beyond the first 20 that I found ridiculous :D

laughingman
29-01-2007, 06:04
I have no doubt that they'd make money off a plastic dragon. It's ediblespread's assumption that GW make $85 off every dragon they sell beyond the first 20 that I found ridiculous :D

Well ok then, my bad.

mabey next time I will read all the posts and not just the last couple, mabey I feel stupid now. or not.

The Dread King
29-01-2007, 09:04
this reminds me of when i heard a store manager talking to his staff about how much it costs to produce a Battle for macrag, which costs (drum roll please) 2.50 each one

Varath- Lord Impaler
29-01-2007, 11:37
Yes to produce it, But they are actually tryinf to get a profit when they add in the original cost, which would be fairly large.

ChrisLS
29-01-2007, 14:48
I'm not so sure anymore - the Decam article that was posted here a bit mentioned that it takes 10x less to create a mould (less than two days rather than most of a month) and there is a lot less wear and tear whilst doing so.

I can't find this article - can you post a link?

Thanks!

Tastyfish
29-01-2007, 15:45
I can't find this article - can you post a link?

Thanks!
Apparently not! I've had a quick look around on this site and google but can't find it anywhere, sorry about that. Was sure it was moved to 'other GW Discussion' but can't see it there either.

Hobgoblyn
29-01-2007, 18:58
Until you factor in:

- Plastics (those dragons aren't made of air)
- Sculptors (those dragons don't sculpt themselves)
- Materials (to design those dragons with)
- Computers (for the designers to refine their sculpts on)
- IT Technicians (to keep those computers running)
- Managers (to decide to make dragons)
- High level Managers & Directors (to decide to keep making WHFB)
- Marketing (to make people want to buy the dragons)
- Writers (to write the rules for the dragons)
- Illustrators (to draw pretty pictures of the dragon)
- Painters (to paint up that dragon)
- Photographers (to take photos of that painted dragon)
- Graphic Artists (to put those photos, illustration and text into a book)
- Lawyers (to make sure noone copies anything the sculptors, writers, illustrators, painters, graphic artists or photographers do)
- Printers (to print what the writers and illustrators have come up with)
- Building costs (Noone likes working without electricity, water)
- Rent (for that building you have the electricity, water, etc going to)
- Insurance (in case said building burns down)
- HR (to manage all the sculptors, IT technicians, managers, marketing, writers)
- Transport (to get the dragon to the store)
- Staff (to sell the dragon)
- Managers (to make sure the staff sell the dragon and don't go off for 8-hour long potty breaks)



Those dragons don't seem so cheap to make anymore, do they?

You know, its kind of stupid to make the arguement like this. Because you need to go back and refigure considering how many of these things are
1) One time costs that never need to be repeated (designing the thing on a computer, etc.)
2) Things that you have to do once for every _____ models (transportation costs)
3) Things that are ALREADY being paid for in order to produce the models already being produced and adding one more object to the things they are working on is not a sizable increase at all. This would also cover people you have hired on regular pay roll who don't have anything better to spend their time on (they don't need to hire graphic artists for JUST one book or magazine at a time, they have numerous on staff at all times and thus need projects for them to work on and the same goes for the lawyers, it really isn't any harder for them to copyright and protect copyright for one more model design)

Once you remove all those things you are going to be paying for one way or another and spread the costs of the 1 time things across the projected sales figures of the model itself, you'd see that listing everything out like that is just plain stupid. Because frankly most of this stuff ends up being worth less than a penny cost per model sold.

Paulus
29-01-2007, 19:09
I agree with both Hobgoblyn & Highborn on a lot of there points.

I think the only thing that can be safely said is that none of us know the costs involved & probably the only people privvy to this info are the higher up's at GW.

What I would say though is that we know it is coming & GW obviously would not release this were they not to make there money back.

I would say for an idea on price look at the cost of other plastic kit's, the only comparables to a large multi piece Dragon are The Giant of The Landraider which means 25 -40 (max - I highly doubt GW would try charge more for what is ultimately a single mini).

I'm going to put my neck on the line & say 30.00.

Highborn
29-01-2007, 21:03
You know, its kind of stupid to make the arguement like this. Because you need to go back and refigure considering how many of these things are
1) One time costs that never need to be repeated (designing the thing on a computer, etc.)
2) Things that you have to do once for every _____ models (transportation costs)
3) Things that are ALREADY being paid for in order to produce the models already being produced and adding one more object to the things they are working on is not a sizable increase at all. This would also cover people you have hired on regular pay roll who don't have anything better to spend their time on (they don't need to hire graphic artists for JUST one book or magazine at a time, they have numerous on staff at all times and thus need projects for them to work on and the same goes for the lawyers, it really isn't any harder for them to copyright and protect copyright for one more model design)

Once you remove all those things you are going to be paying for one way or another and spread the costs of the 1 time things across the projected sales figures of the model itself, you'd see that listing everything out like that is just plain stupid. Because frankly most of this stuff ends up being worth less than a penny cost per model sold.

Economy of scale is what you're describing, and it definitely applies here.

My point still stands that the dragon sales aren't "free cash", as the previous poster puts it.

Harry
29-01-2007, 22:53
I think the only thing that can be safely said is that none of us know the costs involved & probably the only people privvy to this info are the higher up's at GW.
I am prepared to give it a bash:D


Not sure who said 1000 for a plastic mould, but it is significantly more than that. I have been told the Bretonnian moulds cost 36k, and the Land Raider ones cost 250k. Worth noting that these were done on older tech, but I believe that the moulds are still pricey.

I have no idea how these costs are broke down by the way, or if they are accurate, but if a plastic mould costs as little as 1000 I would be amazed.
Not sure about these prices. But they don't sound out of the way. The majority of the costs involved are labour costs to build a mould. This can be hundreds of hours per mould. I think moulds average at around 80,000. Each die wieghs over a ton/tonne!


Until you factor in:

[QUOTE]- Plastics (those dragons aren't made of air)
Costs about 1/pound so not so significant. (but not getting cheaper with the price of oil rocketting.

- Sculptors (those dragons don't sculpt themselves)
Probably one sculptors main project for several months 10,000???

- Computers (for the designers to refine their sculpts on)
Last year Games Workshop invested 1.6 million in Computers and software and 2 million the year before. Obviously you can spread these costs over models for the next few years but not forever we all know how fast technology moves on. In three years this kit will be obsolete!


You forgot to mention the labour costs involved in manufacture, and packing.
Also the packaging costs are not insignificant.


You know, its kind of stupid to make the arguement like this.
It is, but its also stupid just to blow it off as if nothing has to be paid for.

Games workshop have invested 4.5 million in production kit (A whole new moulding workshop, moving manufacture from Wisbech to Nottingham, with 13 new high presision moulding machines and an overhead crane to lift the dies in and out) on the back of 4.million pounds the year before. Obviously these are a long term investments but still...
These also have running costs I am going to guess at around the 25-50/hour mark. They can and sometimes do run 24/7



But what you also have to remember is that once they have paid back the cost of the mould (not sure how much they cost, someone said 1000 at some time), the plastic is pretty much free. Really, as much of a deal as they make about plastic prices rising, tis still quite cheap. So 1000/50 is... 20 dragons (assuming they are priced at 50). After that, its free cash for them. Even if its 10,000, thats still only 200 drags.
Do you want to rethink this position?

Paulus
29-01-2007, 22:56
I think moulds average at around 80,000.

Suddenly 3.50 for plastic Black Orc would seem a reasonable price, lol! ;)

Jonahmaul
30-01-2007, 08:26
At the end of the day GW is a profit making organisation and ultimately they need to make money. However, if they start making rubbish models or massively overpricing their products then they are going to drive customers away which is obvisouly bad for business, hence the need to make decent models. As an ex red shirt I know how much staff paid for models & it was crazy cheap, a standard metal model would usually cost somewhere between 15p-30p & even then GW was still making a profit, but that's on the assumption that all the costs of making the model in the first place such as making the mould etc. have been reached. Think I remember a manager saying years ago that it took 7 years before the Leman Russ Tank started making GW profit (although casts are cheaper now).

Current large scale plastic kits cost up to 50 if you include the lotr mumakil but I'd put my neck out with Paulus & go with a 30 price tag.

Hellebore
30-01-2007, 09:32
I think the upshot is:

Everything costs money
Nothing is free
You don't have to buy anything

Use sticks if you don't want miniatures.


Hellebore

sulla
30-01-2007, 15:37
Use sticks if you don't want miniatures.


Hellebore

Don't even joke about it... I saw a guy play an army so proxied it didn't even have a single model that was what it was supposed to be. Hard enough keeping track of that. I don't want to have to remember what each group of matchsticks is supposed to be...

Tastyfish
30-01-2007, 16:00
At the school club we'd just have paper cut to the right size with 'Chaos Warriors - 20' on them, with the number crossed out and rewritten as it took casulties to proxy with until we got the models.

Ender Shadowkin
30-01-2007, 16:22
My group has never had a problem proxying models, but we generally have something that looks close.

But the point is nobody is twisting your arm to buy GW stuff. There are lots of very afforadale great looking miniatures from other manufactorers that can easiy fit the troop type you want. Not to mention classic models from ebay. I've never seen anyone complain about a well painted army with non GW models. You can't use them at a GW tournament ,but as long as they look good, people will play.

I don't understand people who vehiminatly complain about GW making something soo cool that they have to buy it. If it costs too much, buy something else, if you really have to have it, then maybe you should reward the people for creating something so cool you had to buy it.

silverstu
30-01-2007, 16:55
Nice illustration of costs Harry- I'm glasd i'm not writing those cheques! Other factors are rising energy prices in the uk, maintaining an international supply chain and supporting R&D- not all projects are successful and this is a drain on resources too. Sometimes companies compete on quality/innovation and unique selling points because price competion sometimes isn't the wisest choice for a variety of Factors, And we should bear in mind that a profitable and sucessful bussiness allows for more lovely things for us to enjoy, a non-profitable business might well vanish-along with the things we love to buy. I may not be able to afford everything i would like but i'm glad there are models coming up I'd love to own, i'll just get them later rather than sooner.
Back on topic- do you think you could create a senic base for a whole unit of slayers with this plastic dragon???

Paulus
30-01-2007, 18:01
Use sticks if you don't want miniatures

LOL! Coming soon Warhammer armies: Sticks

Core: Twigs
Monsterous units: Branches

Sounds almost as good as the rocks that were mentioned a while back on another thread! :p

Jonahmaul
30-01-2007, 18:12
LOL! Coming soon Warhammer armies: Sticks

Core: Twigs
Monsterous units: Branches



But we already have a WE army?!

Paulus
30-01-2007, 18:16
But we already have a WE army?!

That's a bit harsh, personally I think Wood Elves are far better than an army of twigs. :p

Jonahmaul
30-01-2007, 18:42
I think most of the WE models are fantastic but they are still essentially an army of twigs/branches! ie Dryads, Treekin, Treemen!

Paulus
30-01-2007, 18:54
Erm, I know I wasn't for one minutw being remotely serious about an army of sticks... It was a joke. ;)

Hellebore
31-01-2007, 01:13
At the school club we'd just have paper cut to the right size with 'Chaos Warriors - 20' on them, with the number crossed out and rewritten as it took casulties to proxy with until we got the models.

I was thinking of this exact thing whilst writing that post:p

However, I was thinking 'delux'. By bags of bases of different sizes, and print out squares of paper with the name of the individual and their equipment on it.

Glue square to base, play.

It just illustrates that the game requires no miniatures to play, just a clear set of markers to represent units.

Hellebore

Jonahmaul
31-01-2007, 14:21
Lol, it's ok Paulus, I didn't think you were being serious!

Paulus
31-01-2007, 18:14
It just illustrates that the game requires no miniatures to play, just a clear set of markers to represent units.

Where would the fun be in that?

Tastyfish
31-01-2007, 19:09
Where would the fun be in that?
Its more fun than not playing the game...

Paulus
31-01-2007, 19:22
Its more fun than not playing the game...

You have me there!

sulla
01-02-2007, 00:20
Its more fun than not playing the game...

I think I'd prefer a computer game to moving twigs around for 2 hours...

Or maybe I'd just spend the time painting more mini's. That's almost as much fun as playing the game anyhow...

Hellebore
01-02-2007, 03:35
I prefer painting and modelling to actually playing, and I wince everytime a newly painted miniature is knocked over on the table. :cries:

With tokens (especially on GW bases) you can play the game and keep your miniatures nice and safe.

Hmmm, I might do up a sheet of tokens for all base sizes to allow people without the money or wanting to try out a unit to use them.

Hellebore

snurl
01-02-2007, 04:47
I think I'd prefer a computer game to moving twigs around for 2 hours...

Or maybe I'd just spend the time painting more mini's. That's almost as much fun as playing the game anyhow...

Do the twigs have to be Citadel twigs, or can they be from alternative manufacturers?

Must all of the twigs be painted to play a game?

Kellindel
01-02-2007, 18:01
Going to number you're points here to make my point easier to follow.



1- Plastics (those dragons aren't made of air)
2- Sculptors (those dragons don't sculpt themselves)
3- Materials (to design those dragons with)
4- Computers (for the designers to refine their sculpts on)
5- IT Technicians (to keep those computers running)
6- Managers (to decide to make dragons)
7- High level Managers & Directors (to decide to keep making WHFB)
8- Marketing (to make people want to buy the dragons)
9- Writers (to write the rules for the dragons)
10- Illustrators (to draw pretty pictures of the dragon)
11- Painters (to paint up that dragon)
12- Photographers (to take photos of that painted dragon)
13- Graphic Artists (to put those photos, illustration and text into a book)
14- Lawyers (to make sure noone copies anything the sculptors, writers, illustrators, painters, graphic artists or photographers do)
15- Printers (to print what the writers and illustrators have come up with)
16- Building costs (Noone likes working without electricity, water)
17- Rent (for that building you have the electricity, water, etc going to)
18- Insurance (in case said building burns down)
19- HR (to manage all the sculptors, IT technicians, managers, marketing, writers)
20- Transport (to get the dragon to the store)
21- Staff (to sell the dragon)
22- Managers (to make sure the staff sell the dragon and don't go off for 8-hour long potty breaks)


I think elements of points 2, 5, 6, 9,10, 12, and 13 pretty much make up number 11. And to be honest they can usually cross over into each other. Basically what I'm saying is that I would be surprised if you find that the is a small group of people that do ALL those functions and only get paid wages for only doing one of them.

Tastyfish
01-02-2007, 18:55
They can do, but then you're not really getting your money out of a professional sculptor - sure in the 80s they would have had a few people doing almost everything, but now we're talking big business and skilled professionals. Felix Paniagua left because GW wanted him to do rank and file infantry rather than mostly characters, you start getting them to do the rest of the jobs as well and you're going to lose even more.

Not to mention, a professional sculptor is probably not going to be anywhere near as good as a professional painter is at painting and vice versa.

Harry
01-02-2007, 20:02
Going to number you're points here to make my point easier to follow.



I think elements of points 2, 5, 6, 9,10, 12, and 13 pretty much make up number 11. And to be honest they can usually cross over into each other. Basically what I'm saying is that I would be surprised if you find that the is a small group of people that do ALL those functions and only get paid wages for only doing one of them.

You clearly have no idea how many people are employed in the studio or just how skilled these individuals are at what they do if you think they do each others jobs!
You honestly believe they get a sculptor to fix the computer?
Or the studio photograoher to knock off a few sculpts with his spare time?

What are you on???

Paulus
01-02-2007, 20:07
You clearly have no idea how many people are employed in the studio or just how skilled these individuals are at what they do if you think they do each others jobs!
You honestly believe they get a sculptor to fix the computer?
Or the studio photograoher to knock off a few sculpts with his spare time?

What are you on???

lol, I think you hit the nail on the head Harry!

Sculptor fixing a computer, does the MD clean the window's whilst there at it?

Kellindel
01-02-2007, 20:22
You clearly have no idea how many people are employed in the studio or just how skilled these individuals are at what they do if you think they do each others jobs!
You honestly believe they get a sculptor to fix the computer?
Or the studio photograoher to knock off a few sculpts with his spare time?

What are you on???

I suppose I deserve that from you Harry!! :p

My point wasn't really as drastic as you make it sound, and once more I worded it poorly. I'll have to stop posting while I'm at work.

My point is, I would be surprised if say "The ART department" painted these things for the company for marketting. The ART Department might consist of the people that do the cover art, the concept art, and sculpting, and blah blah blah.

Just because they work on computers doesn't mean that there is NO chance that these people NEVER take part in the game. If GW has a computer geek working for them that paints to their standards and plays the game, they would be STUPID not to take advantage of that. Pay him for one job but ask permission to use photo's of his personal stuff in ad's. Would they pay him money for said permission ... most likely ... would it be as much as paying an additional body to do same job??? Most likely not.

I'm sure there are plenty of people that work for the company that are NOT involved with the game. But look at the painted armies for the battle reports in WD and you'll see some of the people are playing with their OWN armies they PAINTED, and not some studio army. Which DO exist and DO get used.

Just saying the cost for some of those points are most likely spread out to pay people that are doing other jobs, hence are not that big of a factor.

Paulus
01-02-2007, 20:28
They don't they have the 'Eavy Metal team (listed in every army book/Codex), one of whom even graces this very site's modelling, painting & terrain forum.

Other members of staff's may appear in White Dwarf but I feel that I can safely 90% of stuff used in promotional pics or army books is done by the 'Eavy Metal team.

Harry
01-02-2007, 20:36
[QUOTE]My point is, I would be surprised if say "The ART department" painted these things for the company for marketting. The ART Department might consist of the people that do the cover art, the concept art, and sculpting, and blah blah blah.

The Art department do...the art.
The 'eavy metal team paint minis.
Sculptors...sculpt.

People dabble. But mostly they have a job to do and that is what they do.


Just saying the cost for some of those points are most likely spread out to pay people that are doing other jobs, hence are not that big of a factor.
The cost of labour, especially skilled labour, is usually a fairly significant factor in the cost of anything produced in this country. 'Creative Genius' is even more expensive.

Paulus
01-02-2007, 20:38
[QUOTE=Kellindel;1264083]The cost of labour, especially skilled labour, is usually a fairly significant factor in the cost of anything produced in this country.

Yep, it's the most signifcant factor if my works anything to go by.

Kellindel
01-02-2007, 20:55
What are you on???

And since you asked so nicely, Lipator and some nice Blood Pressure medication that I think might be a tad to strong cause it almost makes me a tad loopy. :wtf:

So maybe that's my problem!!!:eek:

Tastyfish
01-02-2007, 21:00
People dabble. But mostly they have a job to do and that is what they do.


If you want to see how true this is, have a look in any WD where they show you John Blanches' armies. Even though I dislike his style he clearly has a talent for drawing and painting artwork, however, good at painting minitures he is not.

Paulus
01-02-2007, 21:05
have a look in any WD where they show you John Blanches' armies. Even though I dislike his style he clearly has a talent for drawing and painting artwork

You are not the only who dislikes Mr Blanche's style I much prefered Mr Gibbon's work.

Khabuldashudeth
01-02-2007, 22:36
I just wish there was less price discussion, and more Dragon info... pics? anyone? PLEASE? :p

Paulus
01-02-2007, 22:41
I just wish there was less price discussion, and more Dragon info... pics? anyone? PLEASE? :p

If only, unfortunately GW have gotten good at hiding things away from our beady little eyes. :cries:

Fred_Scuttle
05-02-2007, 02:48
I nicked this from the Scenery Thread - not my original idea but I blew the original up 400% and tired to clean it a tad.

New Dragon? Gotta say I like the body - but the wings have a weird 'On A Coat Hanger' :wtf: :confused: look to them.

Could it be they are making a 'platform' to place mini's on? Kind of a one size fits all - swap out your lord characters at will on your dragon?

From one stance - makes sense as it multiplies the places you can use the Dragon Model ( ohhhhh boy - those GW marketing boys could make the Giant look subtle by comparison! ).

The figure seems to be STANDING IMHO. But - as it's a bad back side picture from another type of add sheet could be nothing at all.......

Fred

Paulus
05-02-2007, 06:38
It was discussed on the fantasy terrain pics thread, it's one of the existing dragons with Galrauch's wings.

Still a good spot though, I didn't notice it when I first looked at the pic.

Suriel
14-02-2007, 19:40
hi. i have a question. have anyone of you heard if the gw will be changing the look of their dragons. i mean will they still be serpent dragons or something more lets say bulky. the reason i'm asking is because i want one for my army and a flying snake with wings doesn't suit my tastes...

Paulus
14-02-2007, 19:42
hi. i have a question. have anyone of you heard if the gw will be changing the look of their dragons. i mean will they still be serpent dragons or something more lets say bulky. the reason i'm asking is because i want one for my army and a flying snake with wings doesn't suit my tastes...

I think it's supposed to be more bulky.

Ohman
14-02-2007, 20:32
Well, while we wait me could take a look at the upcoming LOTR dragon first found in this thread:
http://www.thelastalliance.com/index.php?pid=view_replies&thread_id=51051&forum_id=59

I'm pretty sure GW will work hard to make the new Warhammer dragon different from the LOTR one, but perhaps some ideas will carry over to the fantasy dragon?

verydarkshadow
14-02-2007, 21:06
There were rumors of multiple dragons in different poses, one of which, if memory serves me right, said something about the dragon lying down on the base. I'm wondering if maybe the LotR one is it...?

Heck! If the Warhammer dragons look anything remortly like that I'll buy 2!...or at least, I would, if I was a doctor :D

Suriel
15-02-2007, 06:25
hmm. looking at the lotr dragon i have this feeling that i'll end up buying mcfarlane's.

RizzenBlade
15-02-2007, 06:50
I'm very disappointed with that dragon, looks like some of the pieces from the early dragons from citadel. Very bloated with stubby legs :S

Marked_by_chaos
15-02-2007, 08:20
my god is that dragon awful!

It's up there with the craptacular plastic cave troll and plastic balrog!

Achilles
15-02-2007, 09:24
Dont like that one, hope it isnt one of Harry's 4 dragon types.

Its neck is to short.
Its wings are positioned strangely (EDIT: are those WHFB dragon wings??)
Its legs are to short
doesnt really awe me with ancient power. whats it gonna do? roll over on you...?

I vote for the nickname: the Bulldog Dragon

What i do like, is the base. That rocks, and wil def get some for my larger 40K models

Khabuldashudeth
15-02-2007, 09:42
Hmm, if any ideas do carry over from the LotR Dragon, I hope they are limited. Limited, specifically, to the name of the creature.

Having said that, I do like its head. But you can see the wing joins and the front of its body is awful :p

The Dark One
15-02-2007, 09:57
i like the dragon and as long as it is not to expensive, i'll be getting one for one of my armies

Jonahmaul
15-02-2007, 10:00
That Dragon sucks, I really hope that GW make a better effort for the new WFB Dragons. If that's one of Harry's 4 I won't be too upset as that still leaves 3 for them to get right!

Jedi152
15-02-2007, 10:01
Wow, that looks pretty bad. Maybe it's just the angle, but it looks like a big fat sluggish lizard that happens to have wings.

Arhandjeo
15-02-2007, 10:06
It's LOTR dragon....

The Judge
15-02-2007, 12:09
It's a fat lizard, with wings stuck on it.

Not a fan... but the base... that's quite big and round. Like the dragon. But it can be useful for 40K anyway.

jimbob
15-02-2007, 12:29
i'm honestly fine with the dragon. i like the look. but then i like the old dinosaur movies, which had iguanas with fins on the back. ahhhhh.....

but anyway, can i ask whats actually wrong with it apart from the fact that (bar scales, teeth and wings) it doesnt mesh with the classic dragon we see in so many different fantasy books/comics/games? I think its good to see a different shape to the creature.

Tastyfish
15-02-2007, 13:41
Messing with the shape of an iconic creature like a dragon isn't really that good a thing to do, its had hundreds of years selecting the most favourable shapes so that it sort of has evolved into the most pleasing form.

Whilst he isn't a patch on the FW dragon, I think a lot of that is the awful painting job and the bad angle we're seeing it from (which really doesn't help). I think the head is actually a lot longer and more dragonish than iguanesque but as it blends nearly seamlessly into the body behind it we can't really make it out, same with the front, right leg. The length of the tail and neck might change things a bit as well - but lets not forget that the LOTR miniature line is aimed to be more realistic than the Warhammer one, it might well be that a more solid, lizardlike dragon was chosen for this reason.

Anyone good at photoshop fancy giving it a new paint job?

Adept
15-02-2007, 14:36
I have to say, I am extremely dissapointed with the LotR dragon.

Now, this isn't to say it's ugly, I mean, it's certainly no Posessed. (http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=305649&orignav=300901&ParentID=258394&GameNav=10) I just feel they missed an opportunity to make a really great centrepiece mini-smaug model.

Something more like this (http://www.rackham-store.com/boutique_us/fiche_produit.cfm?type=708&ref=UKCYTI01&code_lg=lg_us&pag=1&num=38) would have really made my eyes stand out, and I would have definately bought one.

verydarkshadow
15-02-2007, 18:42
Hmm. Well its true that it looks nothing like the Warhammer idea of dragons. Overall though I think it looks really, really tough. Much more intimidating than the aweful "snake with wings" (and flipper feet) that WFB is currently stuck with.

I agree a slightly elongated neck and longer legs all around would have been an improvement, but generally I just think it looks very .... realistic (as dragons go :rolleyes: ). Love the scales! No sword is getting through that!

Vogon
15-02-2007, 21:06
I personally think that the LOTR dragon looks OK, though it’s difficult to tell from the angle how long the neck actually is. I tin that it could be longer than appears in the photo it’s just the angle that makes it look so short.

However I soooo wish they’d done a scaled up BOFA Smaug. Now that would be cool.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99061666001&orignav=300808

Cheers

Vogon

Zanzibarthefirst
15-02-2007, 21:39
the dragon fits in with the idea that the dragon got big and fat guarding the treasure.

RizzenBlade
16-02-2007, 04:47
Yeah this bulldog dragon isnt filled with ancient majesty that I would have expected, although I haven't been a fan of most of the lotr sculpts.
My girlfriend seems to love it though and she is mainly into lotr so maybe there is something there.
Anyway I can see it working well as an engine of the gods for my lizardmen, but a dragon... not a chance.

verydarkshadow
16-02-2007, 06:08
This probably isn't encouraging GW to release any early information on the WFB dragon, eh? :o

Still, I think it's safe to assume that the WFB dragon(s) won't be too much like this one though, if for no reason other than to keep the ranges distinct.

Jonahmaul
16-02-2007, 08:19
I have to say on reflection that I was slightly unfair to this model. Having had a closer look I don't think it's too bad although the angle & the paint job really don't help. I think I'll reserve my full judgement until it's released but it's not as damning as I first thought!

Zanzibarthefirst
16-02-2007, 09:18
when are these getting released?

verydarkshadow
16-02-2007, 17:05
They're starting to release those models in May! :D

Looks like GW plans to make this the "Summer of a Dozen Dragons".

Harry
17-02-2007, 11:55
Not a dozen. Not all this summer.
This was one of the four unreleased dragon types I was talking about.

Arhalien
17-02-2007, 11:57
one down three to go :)

Or have some of them been cancelled?

EvC
17-02-2007, 12:02
Well, one's a Wyvern, one's a generic Dragon (I believe), and the third could be for High Elves (New Prince Imrik?). But, we shall see...

scarletsquig
17-02-2007, 13:58
I rather like the look of that new dragon, although the painting is indeed bad (adding slits to those eyes would have made a *big* difference in terms of making it look less... dumb).

Can wait to see some more pics of it!

EDIT: Here's that photoshop job someone asked for... the original image was far too bright and red-washed - I introduced some blue into the shadows that should make the detail stand out a bit more (and gave it an eyeslit, just because it was bugging me ;) :

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/9837/dragonlv9.jpg

Kinda reminds me of a squig...

Arhalien
17-02-2007, 13:59
This is starting to get like a project log :p

ChrisLS
17-02-2007, 14:44
EDIT: Here's that photoshop job someone asked for... the original image was far too bright and red-washed - I introduced some blue into the shadows that should make the detail stand out a bit more (and gave it an eyeslit, just because it was bugging me ;)

OK, so I wasn't the only one who was bugged by that! Your work is much appreciated, scarletsquig, it makes the picture look a lot better. What that dragon really reminds me of is drawings of early D&D dragons, and IMO that is a GOOD thing! That's what a dragon is supposed to look like to me!

I only have one Evil army (two if you include the completely unworked on Mordor army) for LoTR and I am totally getting this dragon. And giving it slit pupils. :D

Arhalien
17-02-2007, 14:45
Good photoshop there Squig, it does look a bit better. Those dwarves look ridiculously static though.

Achilles
17-02-2007, 16:13
I still dont like the wings... they look to thin for the bulk of the dragons. they should have been folded or something

Tastyfish
17-02-2007, 17:45
I still dont like the wings... they look to thin for the bulk of the dragons. they should have been folded or something

Apparently they are like that because having dragons fly is on of the options in LOTR. Might look quite a bit better with a set of Balrog ones on it.

verydarkshadow
17-02-2007, 19:42
Not a dozen. Not all this summer.
This was one of the four unreleased dragon types I was talking about.


Ah, o'course not ;) But a little embelishment never hurt anyone, did it?
I just thought "Dozen Dragons" was a clever little bit of alliteration....maybe not.

skkipper
17-02-2007, 20:37
This is why i love my current employer.

engineer to sell machines
engineer to design machines
engineer to buy parts for machine
engineer to assemble machines
IT to keep porn pipe running
president to use said porn pipe



Until you factor in:

- Plastics (those dragons aren't made of air)
- Sculptors (those dragons don't sculpt themselves)
- Materials (to design those dragons with)
- Computers (for the designers to refine their sculpts on)
- IT Technicians (to keep those computers running)
- Managers (to decide to make dragons)
- High level Managers & Directors (to decide to keep making WHFB)
- Marketing (to make people want to buy the dragons)
- Writers (to write the rules for the dragons)
- Illustrators (to draw pretty pictures of the dragon)
- Painters (to paint up that dragon)
- Photographers (to take photos of that painted dragon)
- Graphic Artists (to put those photos, illustration and text into a book)
- Lawyers (to make sure noone copies anything the sculptors, writers, illustrators, painters, graphic artists or photographers do)
- Printers (to print what the writers and illustrators have come up with)
- Building costs (Noone likes working without electricity, water)
- Rent (for that building you have the electricity, water, etc going to)
- Insurance (in case said building burns down)
- HR (to manage all the sculptors, IT technicians, managers, marketing, writers)
- Transport (to get the dragon to the store)
- Staff (to sell the dragon)
- Managers (to make sure the staff sell the dragon and don't go off for 8-hour long potty breaks)



Those dragons don't seem so cheap to make anymore, do they?

Paulus
17-02-2007, 22:25
This is why i love my current employer.

engineer to sell machines
engineer to design machines
engineer to buy parts for machine
engineer to assemble machines
IT to keep porn pipe running
president to use said porn pipe

No offense but what on earth are you talking about??

sulla
18-02-2007, 02:23
Something more like this (http://www.rackham-store.com/boutique_us/fiche_produit.cfm?type=708&ref=UKCYTI01&code_lg=lg_us&pag=1&num=38) would have really made my eyes stand out, and I would have definately bought one.

:eek: That Rackham dragon is ridiculous. It's got huge chicken legs (I can't see how it could walk on all fours), spikes in ridiculous places; it's underbelly :wtf: and those silly bone-knives on it's neck (it might decapitate itself if it looks up :rolleyes: ). I really dislike the nose and chin spikes too. I can understand that they have to make their dragon different from everyone elses but this is just a bit over the top for me. It would make a better daemon than a dragon.

Fingol23
22-02-2007, 19:02
I like the Lotr Dragon through in Fantasy you would probably have to model the rider standing next to it like Eragon in Eldest

The Judge
22-02-2007, 19:12
No, the Rackham Dragon is still a thousand times better than the fat iguana, despite the knives on it's back (which now you point them out are rather ridiculous)

maraxis
26-02-2007, 16:34
LOTR Dragon...

Braad
26-02-2007, 17:17
About this LOTR dragon... I somewhere got the feeling it is a plastic toy dragon which has GW wings glued to them, or do I see this wrong?

The rackham dragon is outrageous. I've seen it in reel life, painted... the only thing that kept me from buying it was the pricecard.
But its still on my wishlist :) (ow... and then I mean the big one, not the little one)

Fingol23
01-03-2007, 17:10
No it is 100% citadel

eleveninches
02-03-2007, 09:41
Personally, the only dragons that I liked from the current GW range are:
the wood elf dragon (got)
the dark elf dragon
the chaos dragon (from eggrim's box set) (want this one. personally, it looks better than the new daemonic chaos dragon, but the new one is made to appear better because of the awesome paintjobs it recieves on all of GW's media)
the chaos dragon (daemonic one)
the FW chaos dragon
the FW dragon
zacharias' zombie dragon (got)

all of them are perfectly good models, but i am not keen on:
azhags old wyvern
Imriks old dragon (i have this model, but it is dwarfed by my wood elf dragon)
old zombie dragon (have one of these, pretty boring)
the old pre-40k dragons

The_Hrud
17-03-2007, 21:27
i think gw like doing stuff that can be used for several armies. it'll probs be like the giant-army spec add-ons. maybe it'll come out with the next wfb campaign.

kainthedragoonx
18-06-2007, 20:15
That Rackham dragon is crazy stupid...it's like 350 US and will ever really be usable in the game...though, if I was a painter, I would have painted it up just because.

Anyway, I wish the GW Dragons would look like the FW Dragons. Good Lord I love that "Red Dragon" FW put together.

That being said, I am a dragon buff, and will buy a couple of these, for all my dragon-riding armies (Woodizes, Panzies, Chaos, Orcs)

Hagraz
18-06-2007, 21:11
Dead thread here :o
dont reply to age old threads ;)

scarletsquig
01-08-2007, 10:58
*bump due to relevant new information*

Courtesy of Meraklis, we now how the first dragon pictures:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e84/Zmithy/hedragoniq2.png
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e84/Zmithy/hedragonriderou4.png


Very nice to see the model towering over the top of regiments, as it should. This will probably get me buying from GW again after a 3-year break :)

New model also fixes the problem of placing the model in base contact with the enemy that a lot of the current dragon models have. Somewhat concerned about it falling over a lot though.

There's even a pic of the sprue layout in the background.. any thoughts on how this is going to be modified for other races?

Tastyfish
01-08-2007, 11:14
Honestly I don't think it will, wouldn't suprise me now to see a totally different dragon for Dark or Wood elves. A lot of the obvious high elf bits (the reins and the seat) are already on the sprue rather than with the riders.

That said, replacement parts for these could be on the other races' rider sprues. Just think a new dragon for the others is more likely.

Lavieth
01-08-2007, 11:29
wow, .... well it looks like I won't be converting my dragon anymore. Thanks for the pics! Although the rider looks a bit funny, but that could be because teh image is kinda small. Once again thank you

Wildkard
01-08-2007, 11:29
grr give human races dragons!

Empire can have a dragon..but only Karl Franz can ride it :D

And I just have to add the new dragon looks awsome!

Urgat
01-08-2007, 11:31
Looks nice, but doesn't seem very big, does it?

scarletsquig
01-08-2007, 11:37
Looks nice, but doesn't seem very big, does it?

This may be due to the image, although, to be honest it's very hard to get a sense of scale with that picture.

The only point of reference is the monster base... assuming that's the standard 50X50mm I'll attempt to add in some other models to the picture to get a better idea of how big it is.

Edit: Okay, judging by the base size, I think this is about right:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e84/Zmithy/dragonscale.jpg

Count Zero
01-08-2007, 11:42
i dont like the pose tbh, it looks like the dragon is jumping off a diving board.

gorenut
01-08-2007, 11:46
I posted this in the other thread, but here are some enlargements I did

http://usera.imagecave.com/gorenut/hedragon.jpg

http://usera.imagecave.com/gorenut/hedragon2.jpg

Rabid Bunny 666
01-08-2007, 11:47
Looks cool, the pose is okay i guess, not too keen on the reins though.

The Dark One
01-08-2007, 11:50
for what i can see of this dragon, i think it looks brilliant

Sureshot05
01-08-2007, 11:55
That looks like a superb model. I might just have to pick that up purely on aesthetic reasons. I like the pose as well. I have never liked the curved spine on the old GW dragons that much but this is just more dynamic for me.

Though the diving board comment did make me laugh, would be painful with a regiment of spearmen beneath it!

jahorin
01-08-2007, 11:57
I feel we will see more and more dragon on the table in a couple of months. I really like this new dragon, more dynamic than it's predecessors.

Thanks for the find.

Urgat
01-08-2007, 12:01
Looks cool, the pose is okay i guess, not too keen on the reins though.

Too large I think, but they should be easy to trim down. At least, it has reins, can't say that of most mounts.

donuter
01-08-2007, 12:09
will there be a zombie dragon by any chance

Urgat
01-08-2007, 12:17
There's 4 of them planed it seems, so the zombie dragon is probably in the lot. At least from my covonluted brainstorming (chaos and wood elvf dragons unlikely, so there HAS to be some others changed). I'd say after this HE dragon, there should be a Karl Franz mini on dragon (because Azhag gets his wyvern, or, at least, is planned to, when there's already a regular wyvern), a DE dragon and the zombie Dragon. And, brilliantly enough, it more or less fits with release schedules, so you get a new dragon every now and then.
Or maybe I'm talking out of my lower back, but I certainly don't think it is an idiotic hippotes... hypothesys?... however you spell that in english.

EvC
01-08-2007, 12:25
The LotR Dragon is probably one of the 4? So that makes LotR, HE, then two more. I think Azhag's Wyvern would be the third (Don't know if it'll ever see a release) leaving one... who knows?

Stingray_tm
01-08-2007, 12:28
I love it! The HE core troops still suck...

Major Thom
01-08-2007, 13:12
Finally a GW dragon I like other than the LotRs one. This one I would buy, I could say that of the other Warhammer dragons, which just didn't suit my tastes.

SV_Harlequin
01-08-2007, 13:38
Doesn't it seem a bit nose heavy? i get the idea that if you stick a metal Rider on it it might tip.

Oh and I don't like the pose its looks like its diving, the front arms seem stubby/to short and the throne chair looks far to tall. And how are you meant to line that up in base contact with anything with it sticking so far out from the base?

If it is just the HE Dragon and not an Alt one (like Imriks as opposed to the standard HE Dragon) I'm gonna have to seriously convert it.

Freenut
01-08-2007, 13:48
Damn I am going to be spending alot of money this Xmas. Very nice.

75hastings69
01-08-2007, 13:57
This dragon is for HE only not the generic plastic dragon, that project is yet to see the light of day!

MutantMaggot
01-08-2007, 14:31
So there's another dragon, as has long been rumoured? Excellent...

It is very good, but the head looks sort of... chinese... mind you, I bet there's more options on the sprue.

scarletsquig
01-08-2007, 15:18
This dragon is for HE only not the generic plastic dragon, that project is yet to see the light of day!

Woo, another tidbit to add to the first page :D

Kotobuki
01-08-2007, 15:50
For everyone complaining about it being likely to tip over...

The rock base rises toward the back, moving the dragon's CG back, as well as the weight of the pillar being at the back. The wings are swept back, and appear to me that the majority of them will be behind the centerline. The tail (though thin) also extends backwards.

There is a rather substantial amount of material in the head and rider area, but I think (at least with the plastic rider that comes with it) there is enough other weight to counteract that. And, if you want to have a metal model riding it, you can always fill the giant void within the rock spire with gravel/ballast/shot/scrap whatever... which will certainly keep you from tipping over, and also give the model a nice heft.

75hastings69
01-08-2007, 15:57
Woo, another tidbit to add to the first page :D

I said it had yet to see the light of day, it might not at all!

Neknoh
01-08-2007, 16:09
Reins and seat are actually rather Dark Elfy as well, and if that rider on the left isn't evil, I'm a bloody high elf mage.

And I love that dragon, although, it looks a tad... lizardly, doesn't it?

Eldarion
01-08-2007, 16:17
The dragon is great, im definitly buy one! only wish i hadn't bought two Prince Imriks. The reins.....i like them, i can just imagine painting pretty patterns on it.

C-Coen
01-08-2007, 17:33
...
Damn, this one is beautiful! :D
Don't know whether I'll be able to control myself not to buy one.. if I was sane, I would wait, to see whether the generic plastic dragon would be better..
A shame they put a throne, reins and armour on it. I want to use it as a WE dragon! (altough I prefer the WE dragon over the other (released!) dragons, I don't like the spites all over the beastie..)
Hope the generic kit would be just as good (or even better!)..!

popisdead
01-08-2007, 19:18
But the plastic giant had all sorts of racial options so it is feasible the dragon could go the same way.

yes then they nixed the giant in (almost) every new army :/

SV_Harlequin
01-08-2007, 19:21
Rules wise there are meant to be 3 High Elf Dragon types/breeds supposedely so hopfully there will be parts to make them look like the different types rather than just having to paint them the different colours.

Damborg
01-08-2007, 19:40
Nice small front legs. Easy to cut off and make an awesome wyvern

jimmyrut
01-08-2007, 19:43
Great model! I can't wait to get my grubby hands on this one!

Eldarion
01-08-2007, 19:57
Rules wise there are meant to be 3 High Elf Dragon types/breeds supposedely so hopfully there will be parts to make them look like the different types rather than just having to paint them the different colours.

If you look at the Tank poster in the backgroud it does indicate, that the dragon is very varied. So this may be the kit that has the moon dragon ect.

The Phazer
01-08-2007, 20:09
Nice wings to steal for a 40k Hive Tyrant! I like it a lot.

Phazer