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IvorTangrean
02-01-2007, 13:19
I am sure that this has been asked, but I did a search and could not find anything. Stegadon with Skink Chief and Sacred Helm, is it ld7 Stubborn or ld7 with ld5 Stubborn? :cheese:

FatOlaf
02-01-2007, 14:07
Ld 7 and stubborn whilst the chief rides the Don.

ZomboCom
02-01-2007, 14:17
Yup, it's Ld7 stubborn, since the stegadon rules state that both it and any riders are stubborn. One neat new trick to do is to join the chief riding stegadon to a unit of kroxigor. Bingo, stubborn ld7 kroxigor :p

Griefbringer
02-01-2007, 14:35
I don't that the stegadon (regardless of a rider) can join any unit, though.

ZomboCom
02-01-2007, 15:11
I don't that the stegadon (regardless of a rider) can join any unit, though.

In 7th edition any character riding a non flying monstrous mount can join units.

Griefbringer
02-01-2007, 17:07
Ooops, my bad - I got some things mixed up!

Kotobuki
02-01-2007, 19:29
Zombo, doesn't the Stegadon follow the rules for Chariots? Chariots cannot join units.

ZomboCom
02-01-2007, 22:46
Zombo, doesn't the Stegadon follow the rules for Chariots? Chariots cannot join units.

Nowhere in the stegadon rules does it say it follows chariot rules. It's simply a monstrous mount that does impact hits.

IvorTangrean
03-01-2007, 04:49
thank you guys!

TheWarSmith
03-01-2007, 18:58
That's an interesting quirk to the rules. I'd have said that it's a monster, that has a character on it, and since it was selected independently, it can't follow rules for monster mounts.

Goq Gar
03-01-2007, 19:07
... HELLO Stubborn LD7 kroxies!

ZomboCom
03-01-2007, 20:04
That's an interesting quirk to the rules. I'd have said that it's a monster, that has a character on it, and since it was selected independently, it can't follow rules for monster mounts.

Nope. Just because it uses up a rare slot doesn't mean it's not a monstrous mount. Otherwise dragons wouldn't be considered a monstrous mount just because they use up a hero slot.

It is a mount with more than one wound ridden by a character. Therefore it is a monstrous mount and follows all the rules as such.

T10
04-01-2007, 07:11
... HELLO Stubborn LD7 kroxies!

At least it is still possible to shoot the tar out of the now somewhat less maneuverable stegadon.

Hm. If you kill the character you have a unit of Kroxigors and an unridden Stegadon. The Stegadon is a Stubborn but is not a character. Oh no! The game crashes!

Restart from last save.

-T10

ZomboCom
04-01-2007, 12:22
If the character dies the stegadon will leave the unit at the end of the phase, just like any unridden monster.

Of course, if the stegadon dies the skink chief remains stubborn, as do the normal skinks riding a normal stegadon...

Griefbringer
04-01-2007, 13:19
Of course, if the stegadon dies the skink chief remains stubborn, as do the normal skinks riding a normal stegadon...

Claiming the skink chief in question to be a stegadon rider when his stegadon is dead could be a bit stretchy. With the normal skink crew I could still find that acceptable, though not very fluffy (and I would claim that they are no aquatic like normal skinks :cool: ).

That said, I am not really scared of these skink chieftain + stegadon + kroxigor units, considering that it would cost over 500 points with the minimum number (3) of kroxies.

Paulus
04-01-2007, 13:40
Nowhere in the stegadon rules does it say it follows chariot rules. It's simply a monstrous mount that does impact hits.

I think that's a loop hole in the rules as I should imagine that it is meant so that a character with a steed can join a cavalry unit.

To have a Skink Chief mounted on a Stegadon joining a unit would be although technically allowed, stretching the rules.

Festus
04-01-2007, 13:47
Hi

To have a Skink Chief mounted on a Stegadon joining a unit would be although technically allowed, stretching the rules.
Why?

It is a monster, it follows monster rules, and the monster rules tell us that a monster ridden by a character may indeed join units.

A skink character is a character, is it not?

So we have a monster ridden by a character, which is explicitly allowed to join units, as p. 58, BRB clearly states...

Festus

Paulus
04-01-2007, 14:01
Well I'm glad I never play you :p

I'm a Lizardmen player myself but having this stubborn, temperamental creature joining an organised infantry unit stretches the boundries of common sense.

T10
04-01-2007, 14:04
If the character dies the stegadon will leave the unit at the end of the phase, just like any unridden monster.


Great! That was just the rule I was looking for. Now, what page was that, again?

-T10

Festus
04-01-2007, 14:35
Hi

Well I'm glad I never play you :p
Nevermind, I can return the compliment in full :D

But I don't even play a Lizzie Army - although I have and play 6 Armies regularly...

Festus

Paulus
04-01-2007, 15:53
As you say it's in the rules & you can do it (it's a daft rule non the less as in many cases surely the monster would attempt to eat the unit & would have to slow down to march in time with the average M4 stat).

Briohmar
05-01-2007, 06:01
I don't believe that it constitutes a monstrous mount, unless it specifically says that the character in question may choose a stegadon as a mount in the selection rules. Otherwise, The skink joins with the unit, and in fact slows it down to its movement, and in fact the rules prohibit the joining of two separate units, so the steg unit with a character joined to it, would not be allowed to join the unit of Kroxies. Its the same thing as claiming that if a dark elf noble joins with a unit of War hydra, his movement is automatically raised to a six instead of a five, and that war hydra may now join with a unit of cold ones knights. By previous interpretations in this thread, the answer is yes, as obviously, the champion would ride on the back of the shaggoth instead of walking, which them makes the shaggoth a monstrous mount. My interpretation of both questions is no, unless it specifically states that the character may take the specific monster as a mount.
So the question remains, and I don't own a LM army book, so I honestly don't know this, that a Skink character may choose a stegadon as a monstrous mount?

JonnyTHM
05-01-2007, 06:13
Not to flame, but why would you answer with such a long post without having the book? Why not just ask what the exact rule is?

"May ride a stegadon chosen as normal from the rare section...replacing all crew"

Briohmar
05-01-2007, 06:52
Ah, OK, then. I honestly didn't know if this was an option, but was concerned about the rule in question. I withdraw from the debate.

DeathlessDraich
05-01-2007, 09:26
If the character dies the stegadon will leave the unit at the end of the phase, just like any unridden monster.

Of course, if the stegadon dies the skink chief remains stubborn, as do the normal skinks riding a normal stegadon...


Great! That was just the rule I was looking for. Now, what page was that, again?

-T10

Problem here!*

1) The Steg rolls on the Monster Reaction table.**

2) :D There is no rule in the 'Slain riders on Mounts' section that mentions the Monster must leave immediately.

3) However the Steg must count as a separate unit (again not mentioned specifically in Monster rules). *The unit formation of Steg and Kroxis is now illegal if the Steg is in the middle!

4) The Steg can't be part of the original Krox unit anymore because of Monster reaction outcomes.

** On a 1-2 the Steg is Stupid - only the Steg not the Kroxis. Therefore they can't be the same unit. Similarly 5-6 = Frenzy and Hatred.
3-4 Unbreakable and immovable - the Krox can move.

The problem has a solution if the rider is slain during combat using Redress ranks but if the rider is slain by shooting or magic...?

Festus
05-01-2007, 10:03
1st: The Skink will not remain stubborn, as the Psychology applies to all parts if one has it, but as soon as the Steg dies, no part has it anymore.

In the Case of Skinkriders (the Originals), they will retain it, as it is their Special Rule as well.

2nd Monsters always fight on their own if not ridden by a character. As soon as the Skink dies, the Stegadon is a unit of its own. The Kroxs are in an illegal formation then. They have to change it as soon as possible (next movement phase, anyone?).

Festus

ZomboCom
05-01-2007, 13:50
I don't believe that it constitutes a monstrous mount, unless it specifically says that the character in question may choose a
stegadon as a mount in the selection rules.

..............................

So the question remains, and I don't own a LM army book, so I honestly don't know this, that a Skink character may choose a stegadon as a monstrous mount?

It's clearly marked in the skink chief and priest section of the army list that they may ride a stegadon, replacing all the crew.

Wickerman71
05-01-2007, 23:39
It is also clearly indicated that the Skink purchases the Stegadon as normal through the rare unit section. A skink hero riding a stegadon is already a unit having a new rule aplied to the Skink hero Unit Size 1 Stegadon. This is quite diffrent from the magority of Monstrous Mounts that are purchased though the character section, as far as I know a Unit can not join a Unit. This is pretty much the same reasoning for a character on a chariot not being able to join units, with Tomb Kings being an exception. The Ridden Monster Rule is no real easter egg in this regard.

ZomboCom
06-01-2007, 00:18
Erm, no.

It's purchased differently, yes, but it is still a monstrous mount according to every rule, and as such may join units.

NakedFisherman
06-01-2007, 00:36
There is no rule that says 'if a model is chosen as a mount from a different unit entry it may not join units.'

I used to put a Stegadon in my Saurus Warrior units. It was a fairly cheap way of boosting rank bonus and damage caused by the unit (and a good way of protecting the Skink Priest riding it).

Wickerman71
06-01-2007, 01:49
There is no rule that says 'if a model is chosen as a mount from a different unit entry it may not join units.'

The Skink may Ride a Stegadon purchased from the rare unit section as normal. Normal for a stegadon is that it's a unit combining the Skink hero does not change this. Nor is there any thing remotely in the Ridden monster rule that would remove the statis of it being a single model unit. It seems to me atleast than rather than adding on the Stegadon as a peice of War Gear (as I beleive you are sugesting) is in fact the Skink being added to the Stegadon.

So, it's the same rule that prevents any character joining a unit then taking that unit & merging it with another or taking Stegadon, Hydra or whatever & placing it in a Unit. The Character must leave the orginal unit first, The Stegadon is already a unit with a fixed Unit Size. Characters do not have Unit sizes they are only Treated as Units if they are independent. Last time I checked there was Hero sections in the army lists not Hero Unit sections A character may join a Unit but a Unit is not free to join with another Unit.

NakedFisherman
06-01-2007, 02:53
The Skink may Ride a Stegadon purchased from the rare unit section as normal. Normal for a stegadon is that it's a unit combining the Skink hero does not change this.

You're absolutely correct; it's still a unit. It's a unit just as a Highborn riding a Black Dragon is a unit. A unit is not 'a selection from an army book' and you will never find it defined as such.

Wickerman71
06-01-2007, 05:23
You're absolutely correct; it's still a unit. It's a unit just as a Highborn riding a Black Dragon is a unit. A unit is not 'a selection from an army book' and you will never find it defined as such.

ROFL
Have you ever read the using army list section in any of the Warhammer Armies books???

Atrahasis
06-01-2007, 09:42
That section describes unit entries, it does not define the term "unit".

Atzcapotzalco
06-01-2007, 10:11
A small quote from the LM army book which you may find relevant here, from the special rules for Stegadons:
"Ridden monster: Treat Stegadons as ridden monsters with more than one rider."
Importantly, the Stegadon is specifically classed as a "Ridden monster", and it follows that a stegadon with its crew replaced by a character would still be a ridden monster, with no reason to treat it differently to other ridden monsters.

Paulus
06-01-2007, 12:19
A small quote from the LM army book which you may find relevant here, from the special rules for Stegadons:
"Ridden monster: Treat Stegadons as ridden monsters with more than one rider."
Importantly, the Stegadon is specifically classed as a "Ridden monster", and it follows that a stegadon with its crew replaced by a character would still be a ridden monster, with no reason to treat it differently to other ridden monsters.

We have a winner that is clearly stated in the book & is why was agreeing it's allowed earlier in the thread, before arguing with me though please read below:


I used to put a Stegadon in my Saurus Warrior units. It was a fairly cheap way of boosting rank bonus

Which is exactly why I don't agree that rule & I play Lizardmen.

Imagine this isn't a game but real for a second. This huge, wild, difficult to control beast wanders over to a unit, allows it to reform around (without worrying they're about to attack it) & then deliberately slows to down to march in formation?!? :wtf:

This is 7th edition though & RAW whether you agree with it or not it's there so TS.

I don't like & have e-mailed GW about it & won't use the tactic myself but it IS allowed.

NakedFisherman
06-01-2007, 18:26
ROFL
Have you ever read the using army list section in any of the Warhammer Armies books???

Please don't use net-speak.

Atrahasis
06-01-2007, 18:34
Please don't use net-speak.

ROFL isn't net-speak, any more than IIRC, IMHO etc are.

I expected more from you than (unfounded) ad hominem attacks, NF.

Wickerman71
06-01-2007, 19:20
That section describes unit entries, it does not define the term "unit".

:rolleyes: Units is defined in the BRB as a group of one or more models

True/False

Core, Special & Rare Units are called up as units in there descriptions in any using the Army List section & characters are never refered to as units.

Most people would content with the title Core Unit or Rare Unit I don't know how many times something must be reffered to as a unit for you guys to actually believe it is.



A small quote from the LM army book which you may find relevant here, from the special rules for Stegadons:
"Ridden monster: Treat Stegadons as ridden monsters with more than one rider."
Importantly, the Stegadon is specifically classed as a "Ridden monster", and it follows that a stegadon with its crew replaced by a character would still be a ridden monster, with no reason to treat it differently to other ridden monsters.

:rolleyes: Just because the character section tells me I can put a character in a unit is not an open door for me placing an Alter Kindred with in a unit. Also by your thinking why would you think skink hero is required in the first place.

Follow the rule for Ridden Monster go right on ahead, but at the end of it all you would still end up with an illegal formation a Character that is already in a Unit placed in another Unit.

So, any of you guys want to stop side stepping the issue yet. You want to put a skink hero in a stegadon in to another unit, fine. Prove to me & every one else that a Stegadon that is pruchased from the rare unit section as normal is some how not a unit & can be placed in another unit.

Paulus
06-01-2007, 19:31
I will once again point out before saying this that I hate the rule & wouldn't use this tactic myself.

7th editition's core point has been RAW & it clearly states as the first sentence of the special rule in The Lizardmen book "Treat Stegadon's as ridden monsters with more than one rider." All other points on unit's are unfortunately at this point irrelevent as the rule for ridden monsters irrelevant of where they are selected from is that they CAN join a unit.

Once again I don't like the rule, I think it is stupid as per my earlier post, but it's sadly correct. I do think that the new book though will correct this & prevent Steggie's from joining other units.

Atrahasis
06-01-2007, 19:37
:rolleyes: Units is defined in the BRB as a group of one or more models

True/FalseA character is a unit. Who are you rolling your eyes at?


Core, Special & Rare Units are called up as units in there descriptions in any using the Army List section & characters are never refered to as units.That doesn't mean that characters aren't units. The rulebook specifically states that they are.


Most people would content with the title Core Unit or Rare Unit I don't know how many times something must be reffered to as a unit for you guys to actually believe it is.We aren't arguing that Cores, Specials, and Rares are not Units. However, we ARE arguing that it is irrelevant.





:rolleyes: Just because the character section tells me I can put a character in a unit is not an open door for me placing an Alter Kindred with in a unit. Also by your thinking why would you think skink hero is required in the first place.Because only characters (and their non-flying mounts) have permission to join units. We can only do what teh rules say we can do.


Follow the rule for Ridden Monster go right on ahead, but at the end of it all you would still end up with an illegal formation a Character that is already in a Unit placed in another Unit.There is no rule that says a unit cannot be within another unit. The rules do say however that a character and any monster he is riding can join a unit.

Just in case you missed it - A character on foot joining a unit is a "unit within a unit" as you so irrelevantly point out.


So, any of you guys want to stop side stepping the issue yet. You want to put a skink hero in a stegadon in to another unit, fine. Prove to me & every one else that a Stegadon that is pruchased from the rare unit section as normal is some how not a unit & can be placed in another unit.

There is no rule that says a unit cannot be within another unit. A character is a unit and therefore if there was such a rule, it would be in direct conflict with the rules allowing characters to join units. A character and any non-flying mount can join a unit. The fact that the character and his mount are a unit MAKES NO DIFFERENCE, as unit refers to [b]any[/b model or group of models in the game.

Wintermute
06-01-2007, 19:50
ROFL isn't net-speak, any more than IIRC, IMHO etc are.

I expected more from you than (unfounded) ad hominem attacks, NF.

I expect members of this forum not to accuse fellow members of attacking each other.

All NakedFisherman did was to make a request, he did not attack anyone.

This matter is closed.

With regard to the use of acronyms and abbreviations, they are permitted to be used on WarSeer.

Wintermute
The WarSeer Inquisition

Wickerman71
07-01-2007, 19:26
Athrahasis, provide a page number from the BRB that says a charater(s) is(are) a Unit & not treat like or as a unit. Did this change from 6th edtion to 7th? Or provide a page number from any army book that reffers to characters as units. Being treat like teacher does not make me a teacher.

Also, by your understanding of the rules regarding units what stops me from taking A Wightlord in a Unit of Grave Guard then placing it in a unit of Zombies. Sounds like a better combo than the steg & krox to me. For the record a Highborn on a Dragon is never given the title of Unit, the only sections its req'd to abide by in this reguard is Characters & Mounts on the other hand the steg is reffed to as a unit on more than once.

p.s. On the of the whole Net Speak issue I was not offened nor should any one else be.

Festus
07-01-2007, 19:31
Hi

Unit is defined in the BRB:
p.6

Units include, but are not restricted to:

regiments (cavalry or infantry), characters, monsters (Dragons - which are generally only mounts - are an explicit example here!), chariots, etc.


edit:
Also, by your understanding of the rules regarding units what stops me from taking A Wightlord in a Unit of Grave Guard then placing it in a unit of Zombies.A lot, because in the one case, the character joins the unit (GGuard), in the other he mounts the unit(Steg). Both follow different sets of rules.

Festus