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azazel_fallenangel
02-01-2007, 14:40
Why are assassains no longer alowed in Imperial armies unless an Inquistor is presant? It doesn't quite make sense when Inquisitorial Stormtroopers can be sent to the front line by an Inquisitor left at the HQ.
It just annoys me that you have to take up a HQ slot just to an Assassain.

Sorry if this is the wrong place to discuss this, wasn't sure where to put it.

sigur
02-01-2007, 14:47
Well, it's a bit annoying but it has been like that since 2004 (IIRC) so . Still, I'd suggest you to read the rules for allies again, it seems like you got something wrong.

Slaaneshi Slave
02-01-2007, 14:53
To stop people abusing them, so now if you want one you have to pay a lot of points for it.

Spell_of_Destruction
02-01-2007, 14:58
I think that the current Guard list is certainly geared towards taking HQ choices from other codices seeing as you can only take one command platoon.

For his points I think that the Eversor would be a no brainer in any Guard army if an Inquisitor was not required as he provided an excellent counter charge capability. Having to take an Inquisitor makes that decision a little harder.

505
02-01-2007, 14:58
and since I got guard I only use one HQ nt a problem

Culven
02-01-2007, 15:10
Still, I'd suggest you to read the rules for allies again, it seems like you got something wrong.
To me, it seems like he understands. Of course, I also know that he is referring to the Inquisitor Lord (the HQ choice) that must also be taken in order to use an Assassin.

If there is something else that seems off to you, please elaborate.

mistformsquirrel
02-01-2007, 15:31
Actually - just wanted to point this out:

There is a difference between "Inquisitional Stormtroopers" and "Imperial Stormtroopers" - though both are nigh identical in stats. (The difference is pure fluff)

Stormtroopers are trained, I believe, by the Schola Prognam (Same place as Commissars) - those who past rigid purity tests and whatnot qualify to join an Inquisitor - the rest act as shock troops on the battlefield.

The Stormtroopers you get in the IG are *not* the Stormtroopers you get with an Inquisitor. Thus explaining why you don't need one to take storm troopers - they aren't attached to an inquisitor at all if they didn't pass the extra-high standards basically. Well that and in some cases its a local variant (Grenadiers/Karskins etc) that is just trained/equipped like Storm Troopers, but not actually the officially named Storm Troopers.

Assassins... I honestly wondered about it myself. It *does* make sense from a balance PoV I guess - and I suppose the specific type of work an assassin does really isn't a primary "battlefield" role. It's more the sort of black ops you'd see on a Kill Team or something (albiet you can't actually take one on a kill team - but that's beside the point)

I suppose the Inquisitor fits both the flavor and the balance needs of the assassin, and that's why they were chosen to work that way.

Angelus Mortis
02-01-2007, 15:57
It just annoys me that you have to take up a HQ slot just to an Assassain.
If you just want an Assassin, why take an Inquisitor Lord? Just take an Inquisitor. Its cheaper and only uses an Elite slot.

Phyros
02-01-2007, 16:11
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't you only allowed 1 Elite from the Inquisition forces if you add them to an IG army?

As to the background reason for the Inquisition having control of the Assassins: Long ago the Officio Assassinorum was split by a civil war and assassins fought assassins. Long story short, after it was over, the former true leader of the Assassins left and asked the Inquisition to rebuild and handle the place.

mistformsquirrel
02-01-2007, 16:55
You're correct Phyros. You HAVE to take a Lord if you want an assassin in an allied army >.>

scwolf
02-01-2007, 17:19
Actually - just wanted to point this out:

There is a difference between "Inquisitional Stormtroopers" and "Imperial Stormtroopers" - though both are nigh identical in stats. (The difference is pure fluff)

Actually, there is one important difference. Inquisition Stormtroopers use up Troops Slots on the FOC, and standard IG Stormtroopers use up Elite Slots.

However, with the Allies rules on the Inquisition lists, two units of IQ Stormtroopers can be added to the IG Army in Troops slots (once the required Troops slots have been met from the IG list, of course), all without ever fielding an Inquisitor himself.

If the IG player wanted to fill those 3 Elites Slots with more IG Stormtroopers, they could, getting 5 of a unit they could normally only take 3 of. Or they could take different Elite troops, still gaining the benefit of having an 'effective' 5 slots of Elites for the cost of 3 'real' Elite slots plus 2 Troops Slots, courtesy of some Inquisitor who doesn't even have to risk getting his hood singed by enemy fire.

However, I don't see this as a problem, as the IG List could already pull the almost the same trick off by itself, using Doctrines. Sure, Grenadiers lack infiltrate and deepstrike, but you can take 3 units of them, in any Troops slots as opposed to 2 of Allied IQ Stormtroopers who can only go in your optional Troops Slots.

Yes, Inquisitorial resources are being used without an official Inquisitor presence on the Battlefield, but it's only expediting something the IG could have done on it's own, had it been able to shuffle around a properly trained regiment to this particular battlefield in time. This is merely a cutting of the bureaucratic red-tape, unlike deploying an agent of the Officio Assassinorum or a loyal Death Cultist, who have abilities and mission scope that are not truly compatible with the IG Command Structure.

(And after the glut of allied Assassins in 2nd Edition, I for one, welcome a change that enforces the fluff that the Assassin Temples are the tool of the Inquisition. The way they were originally presented, where "allied" merely meant "may appear to be acting on the same side as any army, it just so happens that the army is attacking at a convenient time for the assassin", led to too much nonsense IMO. I saw xenos vs. xenos battles where both sides were fielding Imperial Assassins, and I just can't picture the Inquisition or the Temples working that way, no matter how secretive and compartmentalized they can be.)

Angelus Mortis
02-01-2007, 17:27
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't you only allowed 1 Elite from the Inquisition forces if you add them to an IG army?

As to the background reason for the Inquisition having control of the Assassins: Long ago the Officio Assassinorum was split by a civil war and assassins fought assassins. Long story short, after it was over, the former true leader of the Assassins left and asked the Inquisition to rebuild and handle the place.Ahh yeah. I usually only use pure DH list, and overlooked that part. Still, if your using an IG army, most people I've seen only take one HQ anyway. And an Inquisitor Lord can add a much needed melee potential to a IG army, as well as the other goodies(wargear) he can take.

Axel
02-01-2007, 17:31
Assassins are not created for the battlefield. Its highly unlikely that a normal Guard unit ever has access to an assassin. The rules reflect this, and it makes lots of sense.

That said, fielding Schaeffers Last Chancers with 20 Psykers and a Culexus makes for a very expensive but also interesting combination. Make sure you only use it when you play a friendly game against somebody who can take it.

BTW: Inquisitors make bad cc units. Well, while they can perform decently in cc, they pay more pts then its ever worth. Use them as cheap as possible or geared up with HB Servitors for shooting. Use RR for the counterattack.

TCUTTER
02-01-2007, 17:52
assassins should be fielded once every 20 games at best, these guys are the best of the best even rarer than a marine chapter(if thats the case everyone should own all 4 temples), that fact the inquis is needed only highlights that fact, who else would have the power to call such killers

Angelus Mortis
02-01-2007, 18:13
BTW: Inquisitors make bad cc units. Well, while they can perform decently in cc, they pay more pts then its ever worth. The point I was making is hes better at it than anything in the IG list. It all depends on how you tool him up and who your fighting. And depending on the gear you select, he can well be worth his points.

You would argue that this isnt a decent CC unit, especially taking into account what the IG do have for CC?

HQ: Inquisitor Lord
1 Inquisitor Lord
Hammerhand; Holocaust; Frag Grenades; Lightning Claws (pair); Artificer Armour; Bionics; Holy Relic; Icon of the Just; Master-crafted weapon
3 Acolyte
Laspistol (x1); Power Weapon (x1)
1 Familiar
Close Combat Weapon
3 Warrior
Combat Servitor
1 Combat Servitor
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Fist & CCW
1 Holy Relic

Total Roster Cost: 351

351 is not too bad for a HQ w/retinue, and thats 3 Power Weapons and 3 Power Fists as well as a set of Master Crafted Lightning Claws at I5 and WS5. I think that is more than adequate for fighting most units in CC.

Slaaneshi Slave
02-01-2007, 18:24
Acolytes are better with mancatchers, str 3 power weapons are almost useless.

Crusaders are better than Combat Servators, since they give a 4+ invulnerable save.

If you want to make a combat unit you need some medics in there too.

Zerosoul
02-01-2007, 18:44
Acolytes are better with mancatchers, str 3 power weapons are almost useless.


My banshees and Autarch would like to have a word with you.

Slaaneshi Slave
02-01-2007, 18:45
My tooled up Canoness (the one with the 2+ invulnerable save and the Str 7 power weapon) would love to have a word with them.

Zerosoul
02-01-2007, 18:58
My tooled up Canoness (the one with the 2+ invulnerable save and the Str 7 power weapon) would love to have a word with them.

Otherwise known as "Daemon Prince food".

Just sayin'. Of course you can sit here and play "that'll kill YOUR dude" all day, but saying Str. 3 power weapons are useless is a pretty big leap. Of course they're useful, just in numbers, just like anything else in 40k.

Angelus Mortis
02-01-2007, 19:00
Acolytes are better with mancatchers, str 3 power weapons are almost useless.


Im going off the DH list for Inquisitors, but yes there are some other decent choices for WH. S3 power weapons are not useless seeing how if you even get a single wound it only allows invunerables. Now if you said S3 CCW are nearly useless, then I would agree with you. Keep in mind that with the 3 Accolytes alone and the gear I selected for the Inquisitor your looking at 12(2base +1 Charge +1(once)Relic) power weapon attacks. You should get a couple kills off that vs. T4 and more vs. T3. Anyways, my point is that its better than anything an pure IG list can come up with.


Crusaders are better than Combat Servators, since they give a 4+ invulnerable save.I think S6 Power Weapons are better than a 4+ invunerable in CC on a pee-on. Their job is to kill not to live.


If you want to make a combat unit you need some medics in there tooThey would help, but arent really neccessarry. After all, the Inquisitor can take wounds on the Acolytes so its like having a 6 wound Character.


My tooled up Canoness (the one with the 2+ invulnerable save and the Str 7 power weapon) would love to have a word with them.I think this was about taking Inquitor Lords w/Assassins. Don't think she counts.;)

Shrike30
02-01-2007, 19:06
351 for 9 humans, power weapons, fists, and lightning claws or no, is too much. A couple of fat squads of ogryn, a bunch of rough riders, some attached GKs, or even just another platoon of really angry IG is a better CQ expenditure of points.

Angelus Mortis
02-01-2007, 19:18
351 for 9 humans, power weapons, fists, and lightning claws or no, is too much. A couple of fat squads of ogryn, a bunch of rough riders, some attached GKs, or even just another platoon of really angry IG is a better CQ expenditure of points.Jeez o' petes! Does everyone here only read one or two lines out of threads then post? The whole point of this thread is, the guy wants to take an Assasssin. If he wants to take an Assassin he must take an Inquisitors Lord. My point was an Inquisitor Lord is not a complete waste of points.

Diomedes
02-01-2007, 19:30
From a fluff point of view Assassins only being available with Inquisitors makes a lot of sense to me.

They are going to be rarely seen on a battlefield as this isn't really their area, they are going to be taking out important people and high ranking generals in their camps/headquarters, not rushing round the battlefield.

They are like a scapel rather than a sledgehammer and only an Inquisitor should have the authority to call up one of these rare and skilled killers imo.

Shrike30
02-01-2007, 19:37
No, I read the topic pretty thoroughly. What I was attempting to point out was that 351 points worth of Inquisitor Lord and maxed-out close-combat retinue is a major waste compared to what 351 points gets you elsewhere. It's too many points put into trying to make the unit be big and scary in a close-up fight, something that many other units do noticeably cheaper. Building an IL tuned for a different job (or simply running him stripped down to the minimum to save on points) is, IMO, a better expenditure of several hundred points when the IL isn't even the unit you're trying to wedge into your list.

Slaaneshi Slave
02-01-2007, 19:54
Jeez o' petes! Does everyone here only read one or two lines out of threads then post? The whole point of this thread is, the guy wants to take an Assasssin. If he wants to take an Assassin he must take an Inquisitors Lord. My point was an Inquisitor Lord is not a complete waste of points.

You are indeed correct! The setup you stated IS a waste of points though. Inq Lord with a Storm Bolter and a psi power of your choosing, with 3 Heavy Bolter servators is a much better way to spend the points.

QuixotesGhost
02-01-2007, 20:03
If you're a Guard player looking for an allied Inquisitor Lord I'd take either one with the Emperor's Tarot (DH Wargear that helps you roll better for first turn), or the Liber Heresius (WH wargear that almost guarantees your choice of deployment zone). I'd recommend a shooty inquisitor with either Scourging or Divine Pronouncement (if WH) or a psycannon (if DH).

As for CC, =I= Retinues really suffer from the majority armor saves rule. It's pretty damn expensive to get a majority +4 save (acolytes with carapace + a weapon will run 20 points minimum), not to mention +3. This is doubly true if you wish to use combat servitors (which is pretty much the only way to get decent strength) and thus must have enough wounds in the squad that they will survive to I1. And T3 4+ save humans do not survive long at all against anything that's dedicated CC.

If it's a shooty =I= you can just stick the whole damn squad in cover and forget about it (even easier if you have the Liber Heresius).

If you really want to equip him for Countercharge, I'd equip him (and dedicate the points) like you would an IG command squad with a HSO (maybe a single hidden powerfist + flamers and a Power weapon) not like a Marine HQ.

Axel
02-01-2007, 21:33
Total Roster Cost: 351

Others have already made the actual point. Its more efficient to buy a cheap GI with three acolytes (and perhaps a Psychic Hood) and go for Rough Riders and Ogres then to create one cc-unit. For 350 pts you get a decent cc-unit, but it will not survive one round with any REAL cc-unit. If I spend 50 pts I can still get 3*8 Rough Riders, who will secure your base better then one footslogging Inquisitor. Sadly (I admire the models) there is no way to make an Inquisitor cc-worthy.

Angelus Mortis
02-01-2007, 22:01
You are indeed correct! The setup you stated IS a waste of points though. Inq Lord with a Storm Bolter and a psi power of your choosing, with 3 Heavy Bolter servators is a much better way to spend the points.


No, I read the topic pretty thoroughly. What I was attempting to point out was that 351 points worth of Inquisitor Lord and maxed-out close-combat retinue is a major waste compared to what 351 points gets you elsewhere. It's too many points put into trying to make the unit be big and scary in a close-up fight, something that many other units do noticeably cheaper. Building an IL tuned for a different job (or simply running him stripped down to the minimum to save on points) is, IMO, a better expenditure of several hundred points when the IL isn't even the unit you're trying to wedge into your list.

I understand what you guys are saying and Im not denying its expensive comparitively, but all I am saying is it would be nice to have a scary CC unit floating around. I mean, do you really need 3 more Heavy Bolters in IG army? You dont have 315 of them already? Now dont get me wrong, because you can make him nasty shooter too. Couple sages, 3xHvy Bolter or if your feeling frisky 3x Plasma Cannon/Multi-melta mix and you can lay down some serious smackdown. But the way I play, its always nice to have one of your weak spot covered a bit.

Slaaneshi Slave
02-01-2007, 22:11
If you want a scary close combat unit and nothing more, take some Marine allies.

Angelus Mortis
02-01-2007, 22:14
If you want a scary close combat unit and nothing more, take some Marine allies.Again, he wants an Assassin, so he has to take the Lord. :confused:

Slaaneshi Slave
02-01-2007, 22:18
So keep the Inquisitor cheap, you can't make it a scary combat unit, its impossible. Even if you pay max points, its still not a scary combat unit. Its not scary.

Right, thats out the way. Keep your lord as cheap as possible, then take your assassin.

Angelus Mortis
02-01-2007, 23:44
So keep the Inquisitor cheap, you can't make it a scary combat unit, its impossible. Even if you pay max points, its still not a scary combat unit. Its not scary.

Right, thats out the way. Keep your lord as cheap as possible, then take your assassin.
So you think that a unit that can dish out 12 Power Fist and 18 Power Weapon attacks(6 of which wounds are re-rollable) and then hit you with a Ordnance template is not scary? Ummmm...ok then.:confused:

Slaaneshi Slave
02-01-2007, 23:46
I think there are a lot better, for a lot cheaper, especially when anybody with half a brain will just unload a few heavy bolter rounds into your very expensive, but oh so fragile unit and waste all your points.

Angelus Mortis
02-01-2007, 23:48
I think there are a lot better, for a lot cheaper, especially when anybody with half a brain will just unload a few heavy bolter rounds into your very expensive, but oh so fragile unit and waste all your points.You mean the one you hide behind stuff or pop into a vehicle to ride up to the front? The one cleverly kept out of LOS until its too late? Ok. You got me again. Because most people put units vunerable to ranged fire out in the open with bullseyes on them.

Slaaneshi Slave
02-01-2007, 23:53
We both know that unit would never make it to combat. No sane foe would let it anywhere near him without blasting it to pieces, or charging it with a unit of assault marines (or similar) (read: wiping it out before you can attack back).

Angelus Mortis
02-01-2007, 23:55
We both know that unit would never make it to combat. No sane foe would let it anywhere near him without blasting it to pieces, or charging it with a unit of assault marines (or similar) (read: wiping it out before you can attack back).Why not? You just posted that it wasnt scary? So they should just let it waltz up the middle right? Anyway, Im beginning to see this is turning into me talking to the wall. Have a good one.

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 00:00
Maybe you have found a wonderful new way of using Inquisitor Lords, but the general concensus amongst people who play them is they suck. Don't touch Combat Inquisitors with a 10 foot barge pole.

They are not scary because they are so fragile, and so expensive that they will never get to attack

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 00:14
This is worked out from the Witch Hunters list (as thats what I play).

Inquisitor Lord
Force Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Digi Weapons, Inquisitorial Mandate, Psi Hood
Hammer Hand, Word of the Emperor, His Will Be Done

3 Acolytes w/ Power Weapon, Carapace armour
3 Combat Servators
2 Familiars
2 Penitent
3 Medics

That totals out at 377 points. For that price I can have a tooled up Canoness (101 points), a standard Inquisitor with a storm bolter (30), and 6 Death Cult assassins (240), which would grind your expensive, but crap Melee Lord into the ground. Of course, that requires an extra detachment, but you get the idea.

Rhamag
03-01-2007, 00:37
Inquisitor Lord (Purgatus, Divine Pronouncement, Liber Heresius) - 110 pts
3 Familiars - 18 pts
TOTAL: 128 pts

Put him behind a big bullet-shield platoon. Almost always choose table edge, strip -3 Ld from an enemy IC then make them take morale checks. Not too bad for the points, and lets you get the assassin.