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xibo
03-01-2007, 11:41
Hi,

I guess it has been discussed already ten years ago, but I didn't care and therefore didn't listen to them those days...
Played a game with the 2nd ed rules again, and noticed this:
Back in the times of the second edition both the lasgun and the boltgun had given profile:
short range: 0-12
long range: 12-24
to-hit-modifiers: (S)+1/(L)-
wounds taken: 1
save modifier: -1
additional penetration: 1D6
The only difference between Bolters and Lasguns was the lasgun had strength 3 while the boltgun had strength 4. So how comes the lasgun is AP-, while the Boltgun has AP5 these days, when both used to have -1 ASM?
If you play an army that does not wear servo armour this is a tremendous difference! Also I think there lacks a fluff reason why bolters actually improved ap while lasguns became as bad as autoguns.

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 11:47
Space Marines obviously needed something more. :p

vampires are cool!
03-01-2007, 11:49
Yeah, the elite of the galaxcy needed something over the 'slightly-more-elite-than-the-fluff-on-the-emperors-butt'

Kjell
03-01-2007, 12:07
AP6 would work on, er, Orks. That's pretty much it, isn't it? The Imperial Guard can get a lot of troopers with Lasguns so maybe the developers thought that the Orks would get shafted against the Imperial Guard since Orks were made into an assault-based army. Lasguns aren't AP5 for a similiar reason. 5+ armour saves would be essentially worthless. In the end, the only viable armour saves would be 4+ and better, and a lot of anti-infantry heavy weapons are AP4... So that leaves power armour.


I know, the AP system is not very good.

xibo
03-01-2007, 12:21
AP6 would work on, er, Orks. That's pretty much it, isn't it? The Imperial Guard can get a lot of troopers with Lasguns so maybe the developers thought that the Orks would get shafted against the Imperial Guard since Orks were made into an assault-based army. Lasguns aren't AP5 for a similiar reason.
Orks didn't get armour saves against lasguns those days... guardsmen also didn't... and now guardsmen became both more 'resilent' ( look I write 'resilent' and 'guardsmen in the same sentence! ) and more in numbers than they were those days ( orks also increased their 'ead-kounts, but guardsmen increased more... ) ...
However Eldar Guardians actually HAD an armour save against boltguns, now they don't - this is one of the topmost reasons guardians became same the fodder as guardsmen.

5+ armour saves would be essentially worthless. In the end, the only viable armour saves would be 4+ and better, and a lot of anti-infantry heavy weapons are AP4... So that leaves power armour.The experience I gathered in WH40K during the last years has been '5+/6+ saves ARE worthless' (as just lasguns and shootas don't negate it, and while there are some few guard players, i can count all the ork players i know with one hand's fingers ).

Corrupt
03-01-2007, 12:27
Lasguns aren't AP5 for a similiar reason. 5+ armour saves would be essentially worthless. In the end, the only viable armour saves would be 4+ and better, and a lot of anti-infantry heavy weapons are AP4... So that leaves power armour.

I know, the AP system is not very good.

AP system isnt good enough I agree.
Eg Terminator armour.
Provides same defence vs Anti Tank (Krak) Missiles as it does against a lasgun...hmmm. Maybe have a save mod system, eg Ap5 ignores 5+ and 6+, reduces all other saves by 2 and maybe have 6+ as max a save can be reduced to. Yes it would weaken marines but not terribly. They would still be the hardest SoB's to kill AND things like their bolter would be awesome vs Ap4. Suddenly Carapace Armour(Which you only take to go into firefights with marines with for the saves) wouldn't be that great. Termintors would fear AT missiles like they should. Explosive shell autocannons would actually down some marines. We know they are the best the imperium (or chaos) has but they still dont walk across open fields with no fear of the enemy because "Meh My Terminator Armour will save me from a 255mm Artillary Round" They are smart and can be killed. Not easily, their armour is amazing agaisnt small arms, but artillary!!!

But giving Guard Ap- Rifles is not the solution. We have to be the ONLY army in the game with an ap- basic weapon IIRC. Even Orcs get Ap6 guns.

I know its not a massively powered weapon but a Lasgun still warrents Ap6 or Ap5 like Eldar get (maybe with a pts increase to Guard Squads) and then push Hellguns to AP4 OR give them bolter like stats or something, basically more than a lasgun that ignores orc leather jerkins.

Stormtroopers are the best the imperial guard has to offer. They have high powered hellrifles that punch through armour (which you'd think a focused las round would do anyways but meh), but atm their only puprose is for gunning down guardians, orcs and little nids more efficiently than regular lasguns. Not the elite storm troopers they supposedly are. They need something to make them the guys who can go toe to toe with Chaos Marines and stand a reasonable chance of killing some before they get massacred by the 7ft tall gods of war. Str 4 weapons would be perfect for this. But for gods sake do something. Or give them a modified Orc CHoppa Ability. They are high powered AP lasguns so they inflict -1 to armour saves. Str 3, Ap5, -1 to saves(but u still get a 4+ that is reduced to 5+).
There are some highly elite regiments in the guard which carry hellguns as standard, a doctrine for this would be nice and the Lasgun is an excellent weapon. Sort it out. Yes it's not a bolter, but its not terrible either. Ap5/6 would be perfect for thisthe lasgun. Punches through orcs and eldar light armour like it should. Then the hellgun could be Ap4 or Str 4 Ap5 or something. So when the nobz or bigger bugs or w/e appear in come the boys in black (colours of my stormtroopers) with the weapons for the task fight back.
Against marines and godzilla nids armies I see no reason to take storm troopers as their weapons are actually no better vs the enemy than regular men. I'd rather take veterans and get 3 Plasma Guns and a Lascannon. This is terrible as storm troopers are just soooo cool!

And before anyone says I'm just a bitching Guard Player I have more marines than I do Guard. 1 Guard Army, 1 Space Wolf Army, 1 Custom Chapter, 1 Blood Angels Army. I wouldnt mind Hellguns being str 4 and reducing my save a touch or w/e. Would be nice. Whenever I play Marines vs Guard I see 2 Infantry Platoons, Heavy Weapon Teams and Ordanace. Maybe, giving the guard an infantry squad that can actually hurt marines somewhat with basic weapons is a good thing. Even so. If Hellguns were Str 3, Ap5, -1 to saves likes I suggested. They would still only kill a marine 11% of the time. Not amazing, but better than the same BS4 Stormtrooper firing atm and only killing 7% of the time. I just hate it, both as and against guard when the elite stormtroopers are in a bunker, see advancing marines, rapid fire (obv with plasma since its the only marine killing weapon then can get). the plasma pistol and 2 plasma rifles drop 3-5 Marines. The other 7 men unload, full auto and kill 1-2 if they are lucky. Its stupid becuase it discourages such a cool unit from being played and reduces non plasma troopers to bullet shields for those who are.

Something needs doing

Take killteam. I played against my friend the other day. His killteam broke a few laws (Termi with Assault cannon for 1. Ended up as 3 Mutable, 2 Immutable) and had 5 men. I had 52 Guardsmen(including my Boss) on the board. 3/4 of them stood on the obj, the rest on patrol. In the entire game he lost 1 marine. ONE!. He charged the central obj and my boss hit one in the face with his power fist. Basically because his guns murder guardsmen so none can fire back ineffectually and in melee the only change is I get a 5+ save and still have a just 5% chance to kill him, becuase of this he can basically assault at will not fearing any special or heavy weapons and cut through my army. In a bigger game the only option guard realistically have is to run away and let the squad die to nail the marines with ap3 doom next turn. I can pile men in, but the fact you hit first combined with the fact your much more likely to kill someone means I rarely have enough strike backs to actually guarentee a dead marine.
Normally I don't compare pts vs pts, as it's not very realistic. But today i shall to illustrate my point.
60pts. 4 Tactical Marines.
60pts. 10 Man Guardsmen Squad with no upgrades.
Ranged(we'll say rapid fire range to make it quick)
Guard are wiped out for the loss of 2 Marines.

Lord Cook
03-01-2007, 13:07
I don't think hellguns should get S4, stormies don't carry boltguns after all. But like you said, either an improvement to AP4, an extra shot, or make them Assault weapons, still with the 24" range. Anything to make them notably better than hardened veterans. After all, stormtroopers are going to be battle hardened as well.

The_Outsider
03-01-2007, 13:08
"Hello 2nd ed? yes i'd like to order some modifiers for this faulty game I bought, its called Warhammer 40,000 4th edition."

"Oh I see, its designed that way. Hmm, you do refunds right?"

Corrupt
03-01-2007, 13:15
"Hello 2nd ed? yes i'd like to order some modifiers for this faulty game I bought, its called Warhammer 40,000 4th edition."

"Oh I see, its designed that way. Hmm, you do refunds right?"

Yes I know its intentional they have it this way. Doesn't mean I have to like it! Cmon. You know theres something wrong when Terminators dont fear an battle tank shell to the face because their armour has a 5/6 chance of saving them.

impending slaughter
03-01-2007, 13:29
1. GW is biased towards Space Marines. Deal with it.
2. Fluff wise there are literally billions more where your IG grunt came from so the Imperium gives them cheapass weapons.

I'm sure theres many more reasons but I'm feeling too lazy to think of them.

@Corrupt: your Killteam example is a poor one because in my experience the attacker almost always wins. You made the problem worse by allowing termies (seriously wtf)

Corrupt
03-01-2007, 13:35
1. GW is biased towards Space Marines. Deal with it.
2. Fluff wise there are literally billions more where your IG grunt came from so the Imperium gives them cheapass weapons.

I'm sure theres many more reasons but I'm feeling too lazy to think of them.

@Corrupt: your Killteam example is a poor one because in my experience the attacker almost always wins. You made the problem worse by allowing termies (seriously wtf)

1) I know
2) I know, but cheapass doesn't mean useless. There are billions of orcs, who arn't exactly technical whizzes but they get better guns than the IG who'se job is to stand and fire?
3) He askes if he could break immutable laws. I said He could. He allowed me to do the same(Can you say 20 IG Veterans, 6 Plasma Guns, 2 Plasma Pistols?) Owned his brute squads hehe. Yeah we v harsh to each other in these games.
I know the attacker almost always wins, that wasn't the problem. The problem was that he didn't need any tactics as his marines could walk with impunity to the objective becuase I could never get enough shots or attacks to drop a marine. Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orcs. Everyone else would have needed some degree of tactical skill to get through 52 Guardsmen standing ON the objective. But the marines just walked straight at it on the basis they'd kill anyone who spotted them and assault, kill everyone and leave noone to strike back

impending slaughter
03-01-2007, 13:45
3) He askes if he could break immutable laws. I said He could. He allowed me to do the same(Can you say 20 IG Veterans, 6 Plasma Guns, 2 Plasma Pistols?) Owned his brute squads hehe. Yeah we v harsh to each other in these games.
I know the attacker almost always wins, that wasn't the problem. The problem was that he didn't need any tactics as his marines could walk with impunity to the objective becuase I could never get enough shots or attacks to drop a marine. Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orcs. Everyone else would have needed some degree of tactical skill to get through 52 Guardsmen standing ON the objective. But the marines just walked straight at it on the basis they'd kill anyone who spotted them and assault, kill everyone and leave noone to strike back

yeah I understand what you're saying. But the IG number advantage is incremental imo. 1 SM vs a couple of IG, yeah the SM will probably gun them down. In Killteam its often hard for the defender to bring numbers to bear anyway. But in larger games, especially when you start to factor in things like IG tanks and artillery, the armies do become more balanced out. Course, SMs always get more than their fair share because they're GW's flagship army. Its just something non-SM armies have to learn to compensate for. This is the biggest reason why plasma is getting so prevalent these days

Corrupt
03-01-2007, 14:01
yeah I understand what you're saying. But the IG number advantage is incremental imo. 1 SM vs a couple of IG, yeah the SM will probably gun them down. In Killteam its often hard for the defender to bring numbers to bear anyway.

This is true. But even with numbers brought to bear. Once the marines were in melee I was screwed. They killed everyone near them meaning I got nowhere near the strikebacks I'd need to get a kill apart from a lucky hit.

Its just a shame that the variations available through doctrines all go out the window when facing marines. I stick with light infantry and snipers and suffer for it. I'd be much better with just carapace and lots of plasma/missiles. I won't take stormtroopers as they arnt any that much better than regular guardsmen with carapace vs marines.
They just remove a lot of the interesting choices from many armies in order to get more Lascannons, Missiles and Plasma that actually has a reasonable chance of dropping them.

The_Outsider
03-01-2007, 14:11
Since when were the main 40k rules suitable for killteam?

Even with the kill team restrictions it doesn't work.

THAT is why inquisitor does what it does so well.

Corrupt
03-01-2007, 14:15
And Power Armoured Looney's are undroppable there too :P

That and you cant realistically have actual defence platoons fighting off an elite commando team.
But point take, INQ is a great game. Shotguns are actually useful!

Catferret
03-01-2007, 14:39
OK, where do I begin?

Stormtroopers ARE Elite! They have better armour and better guns than regular infantry. They are Elite Guardsmen NOT the greatest elite force in the galaxy. They do not need to be able to go toe-to-toe with a Chaos Marine, that is what Space Marines are for.

The Hellgun works perfectly well against the Imperial Guard's main foes. Eldar, Orks and Cultists. They are not intended to destroy all Power Armoured loonies. That is what Bolters are for.

Lasguns are so much worse than Bolters because they don't fire armour piercing mass reactive rounds. They fire a beam of focussed light which converts to kinetic energy if it reaches a solid surface. However a curved surface (for example Power Armour) may well just reflect it off meaning less energy is converted at the target point. Bolter shells punch through armour and explode inside you.

xibo
03-01-2007, 14:45
They just remove a lot of the interesting choices from many armies in order to get more Lascannons, Missiles and Plasma that actually has a reasonable chance of dropping them.
Fatefully, that is true. One guy who regulary comes to our local GW ( a gt freak ) once said to me something like 'and anyways, why would you want some crap like an exterminator russ, if it doesn't take out more than one model a turn most of the time?'. And if I look at other people's guards I see guardsmen just beeing ablative wounds for the most static heavy weapon marksmen ever to encounter.

Long gone are the days where my horse-mounted commissar wielded a laspistol and a nonpower-sword :cries:


Fluff wise there are literally billions more where your IG grunt came from so the Imperium gives them cheapass weapons.IIAWI the planetary gouvernors are charged in case of poorly equiping _their_ guardsmen.

K0tka
03-01-2007, 14:46
well, marines needed some weapon to KILL enemy, not just burn theyr fingers...
Lasgun is beam of light that can be recharged byt throwing it in fire :D
Boltters have actual Bullets, that can kill people:D

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 14:46
Unless the armour were shiney there is more chance of a bolter round being deflected than a laser beam being deflected.

Corrupt
03-01-2007, 14:48
OK, where do I begin?

Stormtroopers ARE Elite! They have better armour and better guns than regular infantry. They are Elite Guardsmen NOT the greatest elite force in the galaxy. They do not need to be able to go toe-to-toe with a Chaos Marine, that is what Space Marines are for.


Agreed.
But Marines arn't always available. Im A Guard Player, unfortunately Marines arn't a choice for my army. If I was a Guard General and knew Chaos troops were in the area I'd send in the best I have. The Stormtroopers. And their high powered Hellguns. I know they arnt the .75 cal high explosive machine guns bolters are, but they are still high powered lasguns that should surely hurt more than regular las bolts.
Nope, im better sending in the guys with regular rifles because they are cheaper and have more bodies to bounce off the Chaos Marines before they all die.

The Hellgun was an excellent concept, but with the prevelance of 3+ Armour Armies it isn't what it should be. It doesnt help against any armies I play commonly. No Stormtroopers arn't marines, they shouldn't go toe to toe with them. But they should have a way of hurting them without resorting to plasma at least. I know 99 times out of a hundred 10 marines would rape 10 Stormtroopers. But the stormtroopers high powered BACKPACK POWERED hellguns should at least hurt the chaos troopers. Against marines the only applicable use for stormtroopers is getting armour saves (available through carapace armour doctrine anyway) and acting as meat shields for the plasma carriers. Thats whats wrong.

Catferret
03-01-2007, 14:50
@Slaaneshi Slave

Ever notice how light reflects off matt walls? That's how we see them! All surfaces are reflective!

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 14:52
The game just doesn't support anything more complex than "If shot != AP3 Then Power Armour = Win", but in the fluff Storm Troopers, while not on a par with Chaos Marines, they would surely make a lot more of a stand for themselves than regular troopers.

xibo
03-01-2007, 14:54
well, marines needed some weapon to KILL enemy, not just burn theyr fingers...
Lasgun is beam of light that can be recharged byt throwing it in fire :D
Boltters have actual Bullets, that can kill people:D
Phhh... Autoguns fire bullets... and everything with the intelligence of a grot would willingly throw away his autogun and pickup a lasgun.
Plasmaguns, Infernoflamers, Lascannons blah blah don't fire projectiles and yet rip of space marines...
EDIT: A grot would prefer a lasgun in case he's prefering to kill the enemy over making more dakka

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 14:54
@Slaaneshi Slave

Ever notice how light reflects off matt walls? That's how we see them! All surfaces are reflective!

Yes, but armours are rounded for a reason - to deflect bullets. Unless you hit a sphere dead on the centre, chances are your shot will bounce off. If thats a beam of light, it will be reflected, sure, just as it would if you hit it dead on, but a lot more of the energy would be transfered to the point of impact (? not sure of the correct term for a laser beam..).

Catferret
03-01-2007, 14:54
@Corrupt

I'm also a Guard player. Use tanks to kill marines! Stormtroopers are only men. Chaos Marines are millenia old 8' tall genetically engineered killing machines tainted by the Warp.

Only Cadian Pattern Hellguns use backpack power units. Other Hellguns use standard power cells.

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 14:55
Phhh... Autoguns fire bullets... and everything with the intelligence of a grot would willingly throw away his autogun and pickup a lasgun.

Unless you're playing Necromunda. :p

Corrupt
03-01-2007, 14:58
@Corrupt

I'm also a Guard player. Use tanks to kill marines! Stormtroopers are only men. Chaos Marines are millenia old 8' tall genetically engineered killing machines tainted by the Warp.

Only Cadian Pattern Hellguns use backpack power units. Other Hellguns use standard power cells.

Thats the problem really. I don't want to take basic troop choices and load of on ordanance. I want to be interesting. I dont want my "men" to pwn his "MO8FTGEKMTBYW" I just want their higher powered weapons of my best to be marginally more use than those of the regulars.

Overlord Krycis
03-01-2007, 14:58
Eg Terminator armour.
Provides same defence vs Anti Tank (Krak) Missiles as it does against a lasgun...hmmm. Maybe have a save mod system, eg Ap5 ignores 5+ and 6+, reduces all other saves by 2 and maybe have 6+ as max a save can be reduced to. Yes it would weaken marines but not terribly. They would still be the hardest SoB's to kill AND things like their bolter would be awesome vs Ap4. Suddenly Carapace Armour(Which you only take to go into firefights with marines with for the saves) wouldn't be that great. Termintors would fear AT missiles like they should. Explosive shell autocannons would actually down some marines. We know they are the best the imperium (or chaos) has but they still dont walk across open fields with no fear of the enemy because "Meh My Terminator Armour will save me from a 255mm Artillary Round" They are smart and can be killed. Not easily, their armour is amazing agaisnt small arms, but artillary!!!

Not to seem a little antagonising here...but if you're firing a Krak missile or artillery shell at Terminators INSTEAD of the stuff they actual ignore armour on, then you deserve to be mushed by said Terminators...:D
Besides, thats what Plasma is for...:p

As to the "crapness" of the lasgun...
Balance-wise: How many Guardsmen can you fit into one Troops FOC slot?
Orks and Nids (THE horde armies) can get somwhere in the 30 models region...Guard (who should have LESS numbers than Orks) can fit 60. What makes it worse is that they are divided into multiple squads...so theoretically ONE Guard Troops choice can take on another army's entire Troops section on the FOC.
So that is 60 Lasgun shots PER Troops choice (without all the jazzy upgrades of course)...THAT is why the Lasgun is AP-
That and the fluff that states there are Billions upon Billions of humans. They are hardly going to give every single one of them a weapon as expensive, destructive and reliable as a Bolter.

I know that second edition is looked on by Veterans as some "magical" time where the game was great...but it wasn't really.
It took ages to play a game, you needed a PhD in Mathematics to keep track of everything and (IIRC) Terminators had a 3+ save on 2D6...

If it was a choice between 2nd and 4th edition...I'd choose 4th hands down.

Catferret
03-01-2007, 14:59
Power Armour gets the same save versus Boltguns and Hellguns. The big difference is the damage done when either penetrates the armour.

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 15:01
Terminators had a 3+ save on 2D6? Yeah, so? Lascannon had a -9 modifier and did D10 wounds...

Catferret
03-01-2007, 15:03
Lascannons had a -6 Save Mod and 2D6 Damage...

Corrupt
03-01-2007, 15:04
Not to seem a little antagonising here...but if you're firing a Krak missile or artillery shell at Terminators INSTEAD of the stuff they actual ignore armour on, then you deserve to be mushed by said Terminators...:D
Besides, thats what Plasma is for...:p

That and the fluff that states there are Billions upon Billions of humans. They are hardly going to give every single one of them a weapon as expensive, destructive and reliable as a Bolter.

If it was a choice between 2nd and 4th edition...I'd choose 4th hands down.



1) Yeah I fire Battlecannons and Missile Launchaers at the regular Marines. but it just annoys me that the Termis are only put down by Demolishers, Lascannons and Plasma
2) We don't want bolters, we just want a mass produced reliable useful rifle. Remember every other basic weapon has either higher str, higher ap or both. Guard dont get a save vs any basic weapon except Sluggas and Shootas (which are Str 4 though so get more wounds anyway). I Know the Lasgun isnt amazing, but It warrents a degree of AP. Surely being blasted in the chest with a lasrifle hurts you and your leather jacket more than a rifle butt?
The other thing is the way that vs Orcs and Nids, yeah the Hellgun is better because you don't get your armoursave. BUT in 90% of games the higher powered weapon is useless as ap5 doesnt bother power armour

Agamemnon2
03-01-2007, 15:04
Personally, I've just stopped expecting to win with IG. As long as I realize that I'm only going to prevail through insane luck, I can actually have fun. The Guardsman is the faceless mook of the 40k universe, the nameless redshirt that gets killed to show the viewer how serious the situation is. The stormtrooper is a redshirt with a name, that's all.

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 15:07
Lascannons had a -6 Save Mod and 2D6 Damage...

Close enough, it has been what? 8 or 9 years since I played 2nd Ed. :p

xibo
03-01-2007, 15:10
A lascannon had -6 ASM. And for more 60 Guardsmen in One FoC are about 360 points naked. Others can get 40 Shootaboys for that and a shootaboy is about same well in shooting and three or four times better in CC than a guardsmen... I'm not complaining about lasguns not ignoring ork armour, its about the bolter ripping of cultists/eldar/dark eldar/guardsmen/orks... every non-powerarmour besides tau, while lasguns which are same effective at punching through armour by fluff don't ignore not a thing? If the Imperium of Men/Adeptus Mechanicus has become that incapable that they can't properly construct lasguns any longer they surely also can't build bolters, right? And as Boltershells aren't reuseable Marines would be already using the new and crappy boltshells which have AP-, too.

Catferret
03-01-2007, 15:18
The Imperium CAN build Lasguns and Bolters! Lasguns are so prevalent because they are so easy to build and maintain. The power cells last for a long time as well. Bolters are churned out by all Marine Chapters and most Human Workshops can make them too, you just need the resources and time.

Corrupt
03-01-2007, 15:32
Just out of interest what armour do orks wear?
Seems the boyz have a leather Jerkin.
Please tell me why a laserbolt is not guarenteed no penetrate that no problems?
IG Flak Armour I can see. A Helmet and Proper Body Armour. But Seriously why can our rifles not hurt that leather jacket you guys have??

And To summarise the arguments
Lasgun needs to ignore leather jackets and maybe flak/mesh armour, bolter remains the uber weapon it is, while the hellgun needs some kind of boost to stop it being the 1 trick pony it is atm. Maybe longer range or assault or something (like Dire Avengers got)

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 15:36
They don't need to boost weapons, they just need to scrap the AP system, and put the armour modifier system back in. It worked for 40k, it works for WFB, so why not put it back into what we have now - W40k : Beginners Rules?

Corrupt
03-01-2007, 15:39
They don't need to boost weapons, they just need to scrap the AP system, and put the armour modifier system back in. It worked for 40k, it works for WFB, so why not put it back into what we have now - W40k : Beginners Rules?

I suggested that
Got OMG we had it, was crap, is better now.

That would be excellent.
Bolters are still great
Lasguns are ok
Hellguns would reduce marine save to 5+ which would be pretty good. Marines would still be awesome, getting the best save agaisnt everything
Termis would no longer be Krak missile Proof.

Corrupt
03-01-2007, 15:57
Just to illustrate a point here.

Storm Troopers-9 Troopers, Veteran Sgt, 2xPlasma Gun, Plasma Pistol 146pts

Hardened Veterans-9 Troopers, Veteran Sgt, Carapace Armour, 3x Plasma Gun, Plasma Pistol 145pts (And have option of a Missile Laucher or Lascannon)

Ok Storm Troopers are 1pt more expensive. Against any horde army these guys would be great. 14 Rapid fire armour save ignoring shots. Could replace the plasma with anti horde weapons if I want (Same price as veteran assault weapons)

But vs Marines I'l take the veterans anyday. Same points cost. 1 Extra Plasma Gun. Give me one good reason to take Stormtroopers over Veterans vs Marines. That is my argument. Hellguns, while Ap5 is nice, are basically not worth it in most games because everything has a 3+ save or better

Apologies for double post btw...

TheEndIsHere
03-01-2007, 16:01
I had an idea for a new AP system but it nerfed marines. So I lost hope cause GW would enver nerf marines with anything...

Went like this:
Shoota (ap6) shoots at marine and hit and wounds and the marine has power armour (3+). So a marine needs a 3, 4, 5 or 6 to live, but since the shoota is ap 6 the marine would also die on a 6. If hit by a pulse riffle the marine would die on a 1, 2, 5, 6. If a terminator would be hit by a krak missile, it dies on a 1, 3, 4, 5, 6.

But with that we shoudl recuce all AP by 1 *ap1=ap2, ap2=ap3, ap3=ap4, ap4=ap5, ap5=ap6, ap6=ap-*

But I lost hope

TheEndIsNear

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 16:03
Thats just the same as the current AP system, but backwards...

Corrupt
03-01-2007, 16:05
Thats just the same as the current AP system, but backwards...

No its not
Ap6 Shot vs 3+ Save. Marines Lives on a 4,5,6. The 6 is ignored by the ap6 weapon.
Thats a pretty cool idea.

Still waiting for ideas about the why take the elite stormies over the veterans btw :)

Catferret
03-01-2007, 16:07
@Corrupt

Of course you use Veterans against Marines. They have learnt to deal with that kind of target and acquired the relevant equipment so a commander would send them in.

Stormtroopers are specialised units for dealing with a particular threat. They aren't gonna be called in unless necessary.

Also, not everything has a 3+ save or better. Just because your gaming group all use MEQs doesn't mean the rest of us face them all the time. Use the right tools for the job at hand.

mistformsquirrel
03-01-2007, 16:12
I don't think hellguns should get S4, stormies don't carry boltguns after all. But like you said, either an improvement to AP4, an extra shot, or make them Assault weapons, still with the 24" range. Anything to make them notably better than hardened veterans. After all, stormtroopers are going to be battle hardened as well.

Agreed. I'd like to see them be Assault 2 - they'd still not be as good as stormbolters due to their lower strength - but for 10 points a model and with less effective saves, they should have a weapon 'roughly equal' to a Sister of Battle at least. (Who is only 11 points)

Catferret
03-01-2007, 16:15
I would love to see Hellguns as Assault 2 Range 18 or 24 but can't see it happening.

SoB don't start with grenades so if you want to compare prices treat Sisters as 14 per model.

Corrupt
03-01-2007, 16:19
@Corrupt

Of course you use Veterans against Marines. They have learnt to deal with that kind of target and acquired the relevant equipment so a commander would send them in.

Stormtroopers are specialised units for dealing with a particular threat. They aren't gonna be called in unless necessary.

Also, not everything has a 3+ save or better. Just because your gaming group all use MEQs doesn't mean the rest of us face them all the time. Use the right tools for the job at hand.

Thing is the the most played army by far is the Marines, followed by Chaos Space Marines.
I just don't like Stormtroopers being relegated to anti horde stuff. They are the best trained and best equipped, you send them in when you need the most elite troops you have, no matter who the enemy is. When the foul traitor marines are assaulting you want your storm troopers there, the ones who have the best chance of beating them. The Glory Boys, with the best guns, the best armour and the coolest name.

Look at the back of the IG codex. Centre of the Guard line, facing the Chaos Hordes. Guess who's there. The Stormtroopers.
Elites section. Photo shows stormtroopers attacking ut of their chimera against black marines. Caption "Stormtroopers pour forth from their Chimera tank to confront the forces of Abaddons Black Legion"

Unfortunately a realist would take veterans for the extra Plasma. The Hellgun is just a waste of points, which is the complaint, when fluff would indicate it is a higher powered lasgun. Why doesnt it hit harder? Its better than a regular lasgun vs some enemies yeah, but not versus all. Its like terminators get storm bolters. Assault 2 range 24" better vs everyone. Hellguns could be Str 3 Ap 5 Assault 2. That would make them better than they are now. Suprior to the lasgun in all situations.

Imagine their annoyance at the moment
"Ok men, the foul warriors of the balck legion are attacking. But worry not! Reinforcements are on the way. Stand fast and the stormtroopers will reinforce our lines!"
*Blazing away, only heavy and special weapons killing chaos marines, guardsmen dying all around*
"Here men the reinforcements"
*Stormtroopers drop from gunship and rush to the beleagured guardsmens aid, hellguns are equally ueless and annoyingly high pitched*
"Goddamnit, why didnt they send veterans with more plasma, hellguns are useless against these foes"

jfrazell
03-01-2007, 16:28
How about Str 4 no AP. This would reflect it not as a better armor piercer but as a "hot shot" able to do more damage. This would put it in a nice mid range between bolters and lasguns.

Catferret
03-01-2007, 16:28
Look at the back of the IG codex. Centre of the Guard line, facing the Chaos Hordes. Guess who's there. The Stormtroopers.
Elites section. Photo shows stormtroopers attacking ut of their chimera against black marines. Caption "Stormtroopers pour forth from their Chimera tank to confront the forces of Abaddons Black Legion"

It says confront, NOT beat!:D

They serve as a rapid reserve to hold the enemy up, they provide a measure of survivability that regular Guard do not. The enemy is stalled until the support can be called in. That's how the Guard operate. Combined Arms.

Baneboss
03-01-2007, 16:46
Every time i play against shooty SM/CSM army (except those mass barrage users) i win pretty big. I dont see what is the point. The only time IG should fear Meqs is when they assault. There are tricks however to minimise casulties taken from combat.

Read post number 3319 in Imperium Tactica thread. Here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101

Zerosoul
03-01-2007, 16:58
I had an idea for a new AP system but it nerfed marines. So I lost hope cause GW would enver nerf marines with anything...

Went like this:
Shoota (ap6) shoots at marine and hit and wounds and the marine has power armour (3+). So a marine needs a 3, 4, 5 or 6 to live, but since the shoota is ap 6 the marine would also die on a 6. If hit by a pulse riffle the marine would die on a 1, 2, 5, 6. If a terminator would be hit by a krak missile, it dies on a 1, 3, 4, 5, 6.

But with that we shoudl recuce all AP by 1 *ap1=ap2, ap2=ap3, ap3=ap4, ap4=ap5, ap5=ap6, ap6=ap-*

But I lost hope

TheEndIsNear

That's an awful system. Why not just increase everybody's armor save by one?

I'm also not sure what the fixation with killing terminators with krak missles is. It makes sense that the armor can deflect some of the force(remember, a successful armor save doesn't mean the model is fine - just that it's capable of continuing to fight). In the fluff, Terminator-equipped Marines survive being stepped on by a Titan. Unless you want to say an anti-tank missle is worse than getting stepped on by a war machine weighing a couple hundred tons, you have to come up with some sort of justification for this discrepancy - why Mr. Space Wolf can get up and fight after being mushed by a Titan, but a single krak missle blows him away.

I think it's threads like this that convince me that Marine-hate is a kneejerk emotional reaction rather than some kind of position gained from life experience. Space Marine Terminators are RENOWNED for being fragile due to small squad size and prevalence of Ap2 weaponry, with the only redeeming factor in most people's eyes being the assault cannon. And yet, if you read this thread, you'd think they were immortal.

A 2+ save is a very good save. But it's not guaranteed. I've lost too many Chaos Termies to think that for an instant. The key in 40K is weight of fire. Force enough saves and your opponent is bound to fail a few. Complaining that Guard aren't balanced in Kill Team is funny. NOTHING is balanced in Kill Team. The game isn't designed to run that level. Guard suffer particularly badly, sure, but what about Tyranids? Your Brute Boss is a critter that doesn't even exist anymore in the rules.

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 17:02
Unless you want to say an anti-tank missle is worse than getting stepped on by a war machine weighing a couple hundred tons, you have to come up with some sort of justification for this discrepancy - why Mr. Space Wolf can get up and fight after being mushed by a Titan, but a single krak missle blows him away.

Because the whole weight of the Titan isn't on him, its spread out over the area of its foot, and the Terminator is pressed into the soft mud. I've seen a man have his legs run over by a tank, and not be injured because they got pressed into the mud (was VERY muddy). So the mud takes the weight, not the terminator.

When a missile hits, the entire explosive charge is focused on one point - the terminator. A terminator shouldn't stand getting hit by a anti tank weapon 5 times out of 6. A terminator is just that, a tank, so they should be just as effective against those as they are against other medium tanks.

Corrupt
03-01-2007, 17:08
I think it's threads like this that convince me that Marine-hate is a kneejerk emotional reaction rather than some kind of position gained from life experience. Space Marine Terminators are RENOWNED for being fragile due to small squad size and prevalence of Ap2 weaponry, with the only redeeming factor in most people's eyes being the assault cannon. And yet, if you read this thread, you'd think they were immortal.

This isnt an anti marine argument. Marines are cool. I have a marine army myself. Its more a whats the worth of Hellguns when everyone plays marines thiese days? As a Marine player you dont see this. My elite stormtroopers (when I'm playing guard) the very best my race has to offer are equally useless vs marines as my regular guardsmen.
To play against Marines as many armies removes variety. You have to tailor a list to fit in as much ap3 and 2 death as possible, standard Guardsman have something like a 5% chance to kill a marine. On average thats 1 dead marine per 20 Guardsmen, so unless I do load on these anti marine weapons your going to rape me because you have about a 44% chance of killing me. Other than chaos marines and Tau you ignore everybodys armour with your basic weapons. Sniper Rifles, Hellguns. All the cool things you want to take are a waste of points compared to plasma which guarentees a marine dead when it hits. We just want our very best troopers to have something that at least scrathes your armour or has a better chance of hurting you than a flashlight

Catferret
03-01-2007, 17:16
Stormtroopers are not useless versus Marines. OK, the Hellgun does the same as a Lasgun to a marine but a Stormtrooper is BS4, making them better than regular infantry.

MrBigMr
03-01-2007, 17:17
Las/autogun are like normal rifles, bolters are 19mm armor piercing mass reactive rocket launchers, so lets think about it...
Lasguns don't penetrate, as bullet proof vests are designed to stop bullets (such as the Catachan flak jacket), but even at such, there's only about 16% chanse of stopping the shot.

I agree about the armor save thingy. A rifle bullet and battlecannon shell have about the same chanse to frag a terminator. But then again, I remember a story about a terminator getting stepped on by a Titan and surviving it.

John Vaughan
03-01-2007, 17:19
Ohhh...A billion-ton titan??? Not very plausible, but a kewl thing to tell the grandkids about...

Col.Gravis
03-01-2007, 17:23
Ahem, I disagree, Storm Troopers are fine, okay the Helgun does'nt rip through Power Armour so what? Storm Troopers are 50% more resistant to Bolt Guns then regular Guard Infantry, they include the option to take two Special Weapons - maybe your beloved Plasma Guns? They also have the option to Infiltrate or Deep Strike given the correct upgrade without having to invest in an extra Docturine, they get Frag & Krak Grenades not fantastic but useful none the less.

I play Guard and Guard alone, I like my Stormies just the way they are.

Corrupt
03-01-2007, 17:47
The point is though Veterans get Carapace and an extra plasma gun for the same points compared to stormtroopers. And nice as Stormtroopers are they are too much of a one trick pony compared to veterans as half one of their major selling points, Ap5 weapons is not applicable agaisnt the most commonly encountered enemies. Hence the Str4 Ap6 being suggested.

I always considered Stormtroopers to be all round superior to Guardmen-hence the WS4
I'd happily drop the free Krak Grenades and Frag and pay 11 pts for Ws 4 and a Str 4 ap5/6 weapon
Then Stormtroopers would be perfect. Sisters are stormtroopers with bolters and power armour, but no grenades. They are 11pts. Replace power armour with Ws4.

Better skilled and disciplined than normal troopers.
Higher powered weapons which are generally better, not just horde killers that are pointless waste agaisnt MEQ's.
Armour that provides better defence and allows saves vs small arms.

Zerosoul
03-01-2007, 17:49
Because the whole weight of the Titan isn't on him, its spread out over the area of its foot, and the Terminator is pressed into the soft mud. I've seen a man have his legs run over by a tank, and not be injured because they got pressed into the mud (was VERY muddy). So the mud takes the weight, not the terminator.

When a missile hits, the entire explosive charge is focused on one point - the terminator. A terminator shouldn't stand getting hit by a anti tank weapon 5 times out of 6. A terminator is just that, a tank, so they should be just as effective against those as they are against other medium tanks.

Except the ground was frozen in the story, if I recall correctly(it's in the Space Wolves codex, I think). And besides, a Titan weighs an order of magnitude more than a tank.

Col.Gravis
03-01-2007, 17:55
The point is though Veterans get Carapace and an extra plasma gun for the same points compared to stormtroopers. And nice as Stormtroopers are they are too much of a one trick pony compared to veterans as half one of their major selling points, Ap5 weapons is not applicable agaisnt the most commonly encountered enemies. Hence the Str4 Ap6 being suggested.

[SNIP]

Better skilled and disciplined than normal troopers.
Higher powered weapons which are generally better, not just horde killers that are pointless waste agaisnt MEQ's.
Armour that provides better defence and allows saves vs small arms.

Well if they dont work for you then dont use them perhaps? Or use Veterans kitted out and call them 'Storm Troopers' theres nothing to stop you doing this. You dont use a square peg for a round hole which is how you view Storm Troopers for dealing with MEQs however valid those points may be, same applies here in terms of rules, in terms of background - its your background and can be applied as you wish - the options are all there, just apply it as it best fits you.

As too WS4 I'll repost my response on 40k Online,



Yep Storm Troopers are elite, thats shown by their equipment, their increased leadership and importantly their increased ballistic skill - I fail to see any reason why weapon skill should come into it. The Guard is not about combat, it never has been, its a shooty army whether you take that to be a static firebase or a mobile column is down to you, they have a few combat elements, combat specialists, only Officers and Ogryns have WS4 by default. Yep you can take the Hardened Fighters upgrade, this reflects a world where close combat is a more primary skill, such as maybe Regiments from Remus would be, but as others have said Storm Troopers are a seperate regiment, part of me would like to see Grenadiers have access to some docturines but I see it as by no means essential, you can if you want all these fancy (and unneeded extras) get them through the use of for example Veterans and Docturines.

Corrupt
03-01-2007, 18:00
Well if they dont work for you then dont use them perhaps?
Thats the thing.
I'l play them. The concept is cool. I like the guys who had all the luck and the best kit, best guns etcetcetc, the elite.
Its just sad that their guns, apparnatly so much better than regular las weapons arnt any better vs marines the most common foe you face. They dont wound any better, they dont affect the armour. All i want is for the glory boy's superior kit to perform...better in all situations rather than a few select ones

Hell the armoury doesn't even contail hellweaponry anymore because officers call get boltguns/pistols for 1pts so theres no point in that anymore either.

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 18:01
Except the ground was frozen in the story, if I recall correctly(it's in the Space Wolves codex, I think). And besides, a Titan weighs an order of magnitude more than a tank.

Same principle, just a little extra crunch. :p

A Titan may have a lot more weight behind it, but Terminator armour a LOT stronger than unarmoured legs...

Calden
03-01-2007, 18:05
The point is though Veterans get Carapace and an extra plasma gun for the same points compared to stormtroopers. And nice as Stormtroopers are they are too much of a one trick pony compared to veterans as half one of their major selling points, Ap5 weapons is not applicable agaisnt the most commonly encountered enemies. Hence the Str4 Ap6 being suggested.

I always considered Stormtroopers to be all round superior to Guardmen-hence the WS4
I'd happily drop the free Krak Grenades and Frag and pay 11 pts for Ws 4 and a Str 4 ap5/6 weapon
Then Stormtroopers would be perfect. Sisters are stormtroopers with bolters and power armour, but no grenades. They are 11pts. Replace power armour with Ws4.

Better skilled and disciplined than normal troopers.
Higher powered weapons which are generally better, not just horde killers that are pointless waste agaisnt MEQ's.
Armour that provides better defence and allows saves vs small arms.

Stormtroopers may well cost the same as carapace armour equipped veterans. But then you've changed your entire army to one wearing carapace armour. You are asking a different question then "Why aren't Stormtroopers better than Veterans in a Carapace armour equipped Imperial Guard army?". Stormtroopers are very good in a basic Guard army, the AP and BS can make a huge difference against more lightly armed enemies, and as has been said they can deep strike or infiltrate without the need to spend doctrins. You can also take more of them than Veterans too. In a basic IG army you can have 3 squads, as opposed to 1 of veterans. For 2 doctrins you can have 3 squads of Carapace equipped Veterans, but for 2 doctrines you could have up to 6 squads of Stormtroopers too!

LeeJerrum
03-01-2007, 18:05
I think it's something to do with Space Marines being genetically enhanced super humans as oppose to a dweeby little guardsman - probably called

Corporal Jones

Zerosoul
03-01-2007, 18:08
Same principle, just a little extra crunch. :p

A Titan may have a lot more weight behind it, but Terminator armour a LOT stronger than unarmoured legs...

Sure. But nobody is going to convince me that the equivalent of several hundred of those tanks stepping on you on frozen ground with no yield whatsoever isn't worse than a missle.

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 18:08
Well Detachment D-99 are genetically enhanced super humans, and they use Lasguns too. There goes that argument. :p

Corrupt
03-01-2007, 18:10
Stormtroopers are very good in a basic Guard army, the AP and BS can make a huge difference against more lightly armed enemies

Yeah, but for every one of those we face, we face 2 T4, 3+ save armies :o
And Infiltrate/Deep Strike puts the pts up to 11, on par with sisters again who have the mystical boltguns and power armour.

It would be really great and useful, if only there wen't so many MEQ's running around making it useless. If there were more eldar, nids or other Guard I'd love them. I still do! but they never live up to their name as most enemies ignore their puny upgraded flashlights

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 18:10
Sure. But nobody is going to convince me that the equivalent of several hundred of those tanks stepping on you on frozen ground with no yield whatsoever isn't worse than a missle.

Even if the missile doesn't penetrate the armour there will be nothing left inside is except tomato soup which used to be a space marine, due to the shock of the impact.

Col.Gravis
03-01-2007, 18:12
Thats the thing.
I'l play them. The concept is cool. I like the guys who had all the luck and the best kit, best guns etcetcetc, the elite.
Its just sad that their guns, apparnatly so much better than regular las weapons arnt any better vs marines the most common foe you face. They dont wound any better, they dont affect the armour. All i want is for the glory boy's superior kit to perform...better in all situations rather than a few select ones

Hell the armoury doesn't even contail hellweaponry anymore because officers call get boltguns/pistols for 1pts so theres no point in that anymore either.

It would be nice if it had some effect but I disagree over whats sad, I dont feel theres a huge amount wrong with STs, whats really sad is Marines and the like are so common, background wise such foes are in a minority but for various reasons they just happen to be the most played armies. Hell discounting Chaos Marines there is less then one Marine per world in the Imperium background wise and worlds worth of Guard verses one Marine - anyones gota like those odds.

Zerosoul
03-01-2007, 18:14
Even if the missile doesn't penetrate the armour there will be nothing left inside is except tomato soup which used to be a space marine, due to the shock of the impact.

And power weapons can cleave right through Terminator armor without slowing down yet can't so much as dent a Rhino. OH NO BACKGROUND INCONSISTENCY

Corrupt
03-01-2007, 18:17
It would be nice if it had some effect but I disagree over whats sad, I dont feel theres a huge amount wrong with STs, whats really sad is Marines and the like are so common, background wise such foes are in a minority but for various reasons they just happen to be the most played armies. Hell discounting Chaos Marines there is less then one Marine per world in the Imperium background wise and worlds worth of Guard verses one Marine - anyones gota like those odds.

Thats what I meant by thats what's sad about ST's
The prevelence of marines means their weapons never live up to what they could be.
Yes there are minor issues about should/shouldn't they get WS4, other than that they are brilliant for what we pay and what you get compared to background, but the major problem is the prevelence of power armoured armies around meaning what was a greap concept and a brilliant weapon for the IG became almost pointless as it rarely has an effect.

Helicon_One
03-01-2007, 18:22
Ooh, nice derail guys, must be at least three days since the last "oh god AP is rubbish bring back ASMs" thread.

As for the original question, lasguns were depowered (is that a word?) relative to other weapons to emphasise the fact that the IG are generally used as expendable cannon-fodder witrh crappy equipment and guns to match. Not much point giving a tuned-up hellgun to millions of grunts who are likely to get smeared across the battlefield by an artillery strike before they ever get to fire it, is there?

Tim

Lord Humongous
03-01-2007, 18:23
Its just sad that their guns, apparnatly so much better than regular las weapons arn't any better vs marines the most common foe you face. They dont wound any better, they dont affect the armour. All i want is for the glory boy's superior kit to perform...better in all situations rather than a few select ones.

BS 4 hellguns vs bs 3 lasguns certainly will score more wounds on ANY target.

Units with hellguns generally have BS4. That partly reflects the fact that the hellgun is a better weapon; a more powerful beam would have ke4ss "fade" across its effective range, and would likely allow more "rounds" per minute to be fired, both of which would factor into BS more than into the weapon stats.

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 18:23
Can't really derail a threat if the answer to the original question was answered in the first few posts...

Corrupt
03-01-2007, 18:36
Units with hellguns generally have BS4. That partly reflects the fact that the hellgun is a better weapon; a more powerful beam would have ke4ss "fade" across its effective range, and would likely allow more "rounds" per minute to be fired, both of which would factor into BS more than into the weapon stats.

Veterans Bs4 Lasguns
Stormies with Bs4 Hellguns
Hellgun=High powered Lasgun
Explain lack of extra casualties caused by higher powered weapon.
Thats the problem I was illustrating

knight of ne
03-01-2007, 18:39
i agree with helicon, but stormtroopers are hideous still as they simply need to infiltrate and then unleash a nice load of rapid fire goodness on a squad anbd thats there job done, they can be hideous against anything that isnt a vehicle when used correctly.

xibo
03-01-2007, 18:45
My 1000 points guard list consists of a command squad with a heroic senior officer, a commissar and a master vox, an infantry platoon with 4 squads with sharpshooters, autocannons, grenade launchers, vox casters, a 40 man conscript platoon with 2 grenade launchers, a 10 man veteran squad with 3 grenade launchers and vox caster and a 10 man kasakin squad with 2 meltas, vox caster and infiltration. This list sucks bad against MEq, but I think it's cool and fluffy and although I loose next to everytime I face MEq, its uneraseable for no matter how cheesemonging they build their lists, cause 110 Leadership 10 Models are not so easy to be taken out in 6 Turns. win by sheer numbers - very guardy IMO ;)

Why Stormtroopers? Simply, because it's cool(or hot). Why Meltas? Why should they want to take plasguns? I mean they are our most elite troops, so why should we want to give them weapons that tend to kill them, especially once they are needed most ( rapid firing chosen terminators, for example ). Also the increased range of the plasgun does not justify the everpresent 16% get-hot threat ( 66% at rapid fire ), as the storm troopers are supposed to be able to sneak close enough to the enemy to hurt him with the reliable meltas, right? And these storm troopers are sent out for tank hunting ( or at least forcing a 12" radius tank free zone to the enemy ).

Why Veterans, why with grenade launchers? They are what is left of my Metal Cadians, and those had grenade launchers. I still like them and their better than a sameequiped special weapons team. Why not plasma? See Storm Troopers.

---
the termie... A terminator armour is supposed to weight some tons. After the termie got stomped by a titan it could surely not get out of the mud all by himself.
Ever seen what happens to a light tank if it's hit by a AT-Missile? Right, it's wreckage flies around through the air. Terminators are less in weight than tanks, i guess, so the termi-armour would - even if the bearer is unharmed, fly at least out of the termi squad's formation, wouldn't it? Not what I consider 'having no effect'.

---
the commando thingie... You don't choose different Commando units depending on a mission. You send the same guys to steal an enemy vehicle who are sent to blow up a paranoidly guarded chinese military research lab that you're sure is going to get immidiate support as soon as they notice somethings wrong.

guillimansknight
03-01-2007, 18:48
Its just something non-SM armies have to learn to compensate for. This is the biggest reason why plasma is getting so prevalent these days

which is why marines now suck

i hug cover every game, all game

my night lord army still seems to have to eat plasma

AP is ruining the game

hellguns in 4th ed should be str 3 ap 3 its hard to wound MEQ's but will puch through their amour
ouch that'd hurt

Corrupt
03-01-2007, 18:53
which is why marines now suck

i hug cover every game, all game

my night lord army still seems to have to eat plasma

AP is ruining the game

hellguns in 4th ed should be str 3 ap 3

ouch that'd hurt

Uhuh. Except your standard boltgun is just a effective at killing the guard with plasma gun (and his useless buddy meatshields) as the plasma is at killing you. Imagine facing an army armed entirely with weapons that hit on 3+ kill on 3+ no armour save. In CC its the same except you strike first and we get a 5+ save at the end.
Now realise thats what it's like playing agaisnt marines before you complain 1 gun in 10 in my squads ignore your armour.

guillimansknight
03-01-2007, 19:03
Uhuh. Except your standard boltgun is just a effective at killing the guard with plasma gun (and his useless buddy meatshields) as the plasma is at killing you. Imagine facing an army armed entirely with weapons that hit on 3+ kill on 3+ no armour save. In CC its the same except you strike first and we get a 5+ save at the end.
Now realise thats what it's like playing agaisnt marines before you complain 1 gun in 10 in my squads ignore your armour.

meh its annoying real annoying

guard are weight in numbers somehow a plasma gun dosent suit them

and i hate the fact guard might as well not buy that 5+ save MORE than i hate plasma-maniac armies

also dont start saying im a dum MEQ player I just suggeted AP 3 hellguns

xibo
03-01-2007, 19:08
Uhuh. Except your standard boltgun is just a effective at killing the guard with plasma gun (and his useless buddy meatshields) as the plasma is at killing you. Imagine facing an army armed entirely with weapons that hit on 3+ kill on 3+ no armour save. In CC its the same except you strike first and we get a 5+ save at the end.
Now realise thats what it's like playing agaisnt marines before you complain 1 gun in 10 in my squads ignore your armour.
didn't he just actually suppose ap3? ap3??? marinekiller??
btw. marines with bolters are MORE effective against guardsmen than guardsmen with plasguns are against marines.

Toppan
03-01-2007, 19:10
fluffwise, guardsmen are not used to combat power armor...ever. if they do go against chaos marines, theyre just a distraction until the marines come. theyre allies remember?

gamewise, orks and guardsmen are not the same people and do not have the same brain, thankfully. orks sacrifice pretty much everything cosmetic or practical on a shoota to give it the most dakka possible.

lasguns are assembly line produced, meaning theyre cheap and effective in any normal circumstance. fighting 8 foot tall superhumans is not very normal, and the gun was not built for that.

i agree though, lasguns need a boost, maybe s4 Ap-, or s3 Ap5

Corrupt
03-01-2007, 19:11
didn't he just actually suppose ap3? ap3??? marinekiller??
btw. marines with bolters are MORE effective against guardsmen than guardsmen with plasguns are against marines.

Haha Ap3 Hellguns would own so much. Something like 5-6 Dead marines a turn if we rapid fire. No need for plasma anymore. Just max out on stormtroopers.
Asif we'd ever get that...

xibo
03-01-2007, 19:19
Haha Ap3 Hellguns would own so much. Something like 5-6 Dead marines a turn if we rapid fire. No need for plasma anymore. Just max out on stormtroopers.
Asif we'd ever get that...
We'll rename them to imperial obliterators, do we not? No wait... Codex Grey Reapers ;)

MrBigMr
03-01-2007, 19:25
Ohhh...A billion-ton titan??? Not very plausible, but a kewl thing to tell the grandkids about...
It's possible even in the game. You might not get an armor save against the stomp of a Titan, but Termie armors have the shield, which would give them the ability to survive.

Kjell
03-01-2007, 19:28
I believe that little piece of fiction was written when they introduced the Crux Terminatus rule (IE, the 5+ Invulnerable save) in Chapter Approved. Just, y'know, in case anyone didn't know that already. :p

Lord Humongous
03-01-2007, 19:41
Veterans Bs4 Lasguns
Stormies with Bs4 Hellguns
Hellgun=High powered Lasgun
Explain lack of extra casualties caused by higher powered weapon.
Thats the problem I was illustrating

Ah, OK, comparing those two unit types, facing 4+ or better saves, you are right. The lasgun and hellgun are equally (in)effective in those cases.

Then again, there is plenty of historic precedent for units being given "superior" weapons and not achieving any extra combat effectiveness against certain enemies, due to enemy tactics or whatever.

Hmm, maybe Hellguns could get a modified "living ammo" rule, where 1's (only 1's) to wound can be re-rolled. (Scoring more wounds would be BETTER than a save mod vs marines and sisters, due to the "torrent of fire" rule, and would still bost effect vs necrons, tau, nids with 4+ saves, and so on. Obviously it would also make hellguns more powerful vs 5+ and 6+ save armies- maybe to much so?)
As for why the weapons are currently sometimes equally effective- well, there just isn't enough fine gradation in the stat / dice system of 40K to allow a weapon-stat based difference (one that will have impact in EVERY situation) between a hellgun and a lasgun in 40K, and not throw in a VERY large power boost in certain other situations. ASM's are not really the answer, as they introduce their own problems...

Sarge
03-01-2007, 20:23
lol why not just give them twin-linked devourers, it'd be just as effective in their hands as hellguns, if not more so lol

Being an ex-guard player, present day Tau player, and experimentor with both 13th Co and Nids (never thought i'd do it, but I've gone over to the bug side), I should know how ineffective guard weapons can be against all commers, and seeing so many of my fellow guard players reduce their tactics to using plasmaguns and lascannons gallore, it's a very depressing sight to see.

TheEndIsHere
03-01-2007, 20:33
Also titans use anti grav devises to not end up 10 km under the gronud everytime they take a step *some billion tons on maybe 100square meters area...*

Plus krak missiles are VERY VERY powerfull in full: a bolter is stronger than today's Anti tank guns so imagine a krak missile...

TheEndIsHere

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 20:36
Plus krak missiles are VERY VERY powerfull in full: a bolter is stronger than today's Anti tank guns so imagine a krak missile...

TheEndIsHere

If you'd seen todays anti-tank weapons in action, you wouldn't say a bolter was more powerful. :p

KTG
03-01-2007, 21:04
I've always thought that it was silly that the Imperial Guard would have something like lasguns. I think they should get Autoguns and the Eldar Guardians should have lasguns as opposed to Shuriken Catapults.

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 21:04
Eldar did have lasguns, back in 2nd Ed.

KTG
03-01-2007, 21:12
I know, with Catapults as an upgrade. So it doesn't change what I said about them.

TheEndIsHere
03-01-2007, 21:21
I meant in the fluff *I've seen them* but quote from codex space marine:

998. model bolter, Godwyn
pattern with ammo counter,
sinister/dexter locking
mechanism and sickle
magazine containing 300 rounds
of .75 calibre bolts with
diamantine tips, depleted
deuterium core & mass
reactive. Fires in 4
round burst

SOOO...
An unknown locking mechanism containing 300 rounds that are .75*dunno what* wide with a diamond tip and a heavy hydrogen core thats mass reactive, also fires in 4 round burst...

Wait, I just saw GW screwed up:
*(...) depleted
deuterium core & mass
reactive.*
Deuterium can't be depleted, for something to be depelted it has to be reactive first *wich it isn't* tritium is the form of hydrogen that is reactive and can be depleted *half life of 12.32yrs*. That means the bolt shell is either tritium OR not mass reactive ALSO it cannot be depleted if it still is reactive...

Don't fear me, my profile says I'm 14 and I actually am... *but I suck at english, science is my second best thing *go figure...**

TheEndIsHere

xibo
03-01-2007, 21:34
todays AT-Missiles ( emphasis missile, not rpg ) blast a 10-family house away with no problems. I don't think that shouldn't suffice to blast terminators. The destructive power of such a missile's warhead is in no comparization with any autocannon shells, so I doubt a bolt shell which is a fourth of the size of todays autocannonshells can carry something that ... explody.
For more, imagine a bullet hits a marines boltgun magazine... the whole squad would blow up o_O

jfrazell
03-01-2007, 21:37
.75 caliber is ~20mm. Think of a shotgun case for easy reference.
It says nothing about its penetrative and explosive capacities other than "uber cool."

Comparing to modern weaponry is always tricky as our current missile launchers have a penetrative capacity more easily measured in meters (800+MM for TOW II). Besides, if a 20MM recoilless shell is uber boom boom (bolter), whats the magnitude of a 100MM shell (Krak missile launcher)?

TheEndIsHere
03-01-2007, 21:41
Yeh GW screwed up BAD there their weapons are as strong as ours, their armour is like 100X stronger but their*so ours too* penetrate their armour easily.. weird...

TheEndIsHere

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 21:44
I've never seen GW say their weapons are as strong as ours, and the only armour comparison I've seen is of tanks.

Sarge
03-01-2007, 21:44
20mm aren't uber boom boom, they are basically an HE grenade, which might be able to blast through a foot of concrete, but wouldn't bring a house down, unless that house was very shabily built. And a 100mm is like an Aberhams main battle cannon, so explain to me how in the hell two men, let alone one can opperate such a system, while underfire none the less? And were did you get this 100mm inclination anyway? Such a system would be well over 50lbs alone, especially if they expect the barrel to survive more than one use, which would be near impossible for a normal man to carry into a fight along with the rest of your equipment. So either A) it's not 100mm, or B) it's a mounted/stationary system that isn't carried by a normal squad.

xibo
03-01-2007, 21:46
I'm just wondering how a guard veteran can run firing a storm-pattern bolter which has twice the fire rate iirc without being thrown backwards by the bolters backtroke :rolleyes:

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 21:49
No, thats just plain wrong. Our current man portable anti tank system is called the Milan Anti-Tank Missile System. It fires 115mm munition. That is only 5mm less than a C2 battle tank though, so I can see why you would get mixed up. ;)

If that thing is locked onto a tank, the tank is gone. There are no second chances with that thing. Its got a 2km range and will always hit the top of the tank (weakest point), ensuring a nice clean kill. If you want to compare that to a Krak missile, then I don't think a terminator would stand a snowballs chance in hell if he got hit by one.

Kahadras
03-01-2007, 21:54
On the whole krak missile front in our gaming group it was sugested that krak missiles should go up to AP2 and plasma should be dropped down to AP3. This seemed like a really good idea as Terminator suits were built to work inside plasma reactors so should be built to withstand it.

By going down to AP 3 plasma still works against Power armour and now krak missiles (which are anti armour weapons) can take down Terminators. Great idea IMHO (although it wasn't mine).

Kahadras

Sarge
03-01-2007, 21:54
It's all about physics, there are three likely scenarios:

A) He braces himself against an object after that 6m run, and than fires. Very likely.

B) He puts the weapon on semi-automatic and pauses to squeeze off a burst. Anothe very likely situation.

C) He is a very physically capable individual and can squeeze off a burst on the run. Not very likely.

cav da man
03-01-2007, 21:56
They fire a beam of focussed light which converts to kinetic energy if it reaches a solid surface. However a curved surface (for example Power Armour) may well just reflect it off meaning less energy is converted at the target point. Bolter shells punch through armour and explode inside you.

Laser guns I can live with yes, but laser guns that PUNCH YOU IN THE FACE?!?!?!?!?!? Seriously..............what!?
Since when does focused light begin pushing people around, doesnt it work off the principle that if you focus it you get hot because of the infra red radiation so if you focus enough you can melt stuff like a giant magnifying glass with a super powerful torch behind it.


Ah, OK, comparing those two unit types, facing 4+ or better saves, you are right. The lasgun and hellgun are equally (in)effective in those cases.

Then again, there is plenty of historic precedent for units being given "superior" weapons and not achieving any extra combat effectiveness against certain enemies, due to enemy tactics or whatever.

Hmm, maybe Hellguns could get a modified "living ammo" rule, where 1's (only 1's) to wound can be re-rolled. (Scoring more wounds would be BETTER than a save mod vs marines and sisters, due to the "torrent of fire" rule, and would still bost effect vs necrons, tau, nids with 4+ saves, and so on. Obviously it would also make hellguns more powerful vs 5+ and 6+ save armies- maybe to much so?)
As for why the weapons are currently sometimes equally effective- well, there just isn't enough fine gradation in the stat / dice system of 40K to allow a weapon-stat based difference (one that will have impact in EVERY situation) between a hellgun and a lasgun in 40K, and not throw in a VERY large power boost in certain other situations. ASM's are not really the answer, as they introduce their own problems...
Ive said it before and il say it again, if you want to make it all better bring back mods and use d10 or 20 dice to do your armor saves. Its really not that much more difficult to do and its better if you can make rules that you and your friends can agree on and enjoy.

Sarge
03-01-2007, 21:56
No, thats just plain wrong. Our current man portable anti tank system is called the Milan Anti-Tank Missile System. It fires 115mm calibre munition. That is only 5mm less than a C2 battle tank though, so I can see why you would get mixed up. ;)

If that thing is locked onto a tank, the tank is gone. There are no second chances with that thing. Its got a 2km range and will always hit the top of the tank (weakest point), ensuring a nice clean kill. If you want to compare that to a Krak missile, then I don't think a terminator would stand a snowballs chance in hell if he got hit by one.

But they also plan on reducing the size and therefore weight of this weapon with it's next upgrade. Oh did I mention it still weighs around 50lb and is typically carried by one squad member with a lighter than ordinary pack, and is fired by two individuals.

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 21:56
It's all about physics, there are three likely scenarios:

A) He braces himself against an object after that 6m run, and than fires. Very likely.

B) He puts the weapon on semi-automatic and pauses to squeeze off a burst. Anothe very likely situation.

C) He is a very physically capable individual and can squeeze off a burst on the run. Not very likely.

D) He is firing caseless ammunition with no recoil and can fire a burst on the run - Fairly likely.

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 21:57
But they also plan on reducing the size and therefore weight of this weapon with it's next upgrade. Oh did I mention it still weighs around 50lb and is typically carried by one squad member with a lighter than ordinary pack, and is fired by two individuals.

So sorta like an Imperial Guard missile launcher team? ;) I thought you said they were unlikely to be able to do that? :o

Sarge
03-01-2007, 22:02
Ok than explain to me why the Storm bolter is featured with an ejector slide? And why you can plainly see casings inside the storm bolter clip?

As for an IG missle launcher team, have you seen how large the launcher is? It's as large as the individual manning it. The Milan Anti-Tank Missile System is half that size, and therefore half the weight.

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 22:07
Most the the weight is in the worky bits, not the firing cylinder. Because its got a longer cylinder doesn't mean it weights a whole lot more.

About the "ejector slide"... You need some way to removing blockages... Unless you want to start poking around the barrel of a loaded storm bolter?

Bolters and Storm Bolters come in two forms, cased and caseless. Cased have a faster ejection velocity, and a hell of a lot of kick, caseless ones are slower to begin with (so less powerful at short range), but little kick.

Also, Yarrick had anti-grav stabalisers fitted to his Storm Bolter to enable him to fire it one handed. No reason why others couldn't do the same for their regiments.

TheEndIsHere
03-01-2007, 22:13
I have a feeling Slaaneshi Slave hates me, everytime I post he replies just to answer me *me feel special*.

Also about the armour have your read flak armour fluff? We used better armour in WW2 and a bolter can punch throug that but not hard that means if one of our weapon can penetrate WW2 armour it has the same armour penetration as bolter...

TheEndIsHere

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 22:16
We have no idea what Imperial Flak armour is made from. For all we know it could be made from Ceramite plates, the same stuff power armour is made out of, with the only reason for the 5+ is it only covers the abdomen and back. Thats pure guesswork of course, like I said, we don't know what goes into its construction.

Sarge
03-01-2007, 22:19
Except the cost entitled, and the rarity of such a micro device in the 41st century.

And given how bulkey the missle launcher is portrayed you must admit that the barrel must be more than enough for one man to operate, let alone fire when it's loaded, while the Milan Anti-Tank Missile System was made as light as possible. I'll concede that the teams help, one man carrying the cylander, and the other the rockets, but by far the 40k missle launcher must be twice the weight of todays systems.

As for the Flak armor, there is alot of beleif and fluff that it is mostly ceramite.

TheEndIsHere
03-01-2007, 22:19
In necronmunda fluff it says how to make flak armour *if I rembmer well it even has bone powder in it..*

TheEndIsHere

Sarge
03-01-2007, 22:22
Which can be used to make ceramite, just a very low end version.

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 22:25
Sarge: You have to remember that 40k weapons are not to scale though, they are made larger so you can see them - just take a look at bolters and lasguns. They are also designed to look good, whilst real stuff is designed to be as small as possible.

TheEndIsHere: Some of it is simple leather jackets, some of it is ceramite plates, and there is everything in between I would imagine, so on average you would get a 5+ save. :p 40k is a game of averages.

Sarge
03-01-2007, 22:35
True, but by present day standards it would still be very heavy and bulky.

Slaaneshi Slave
03-01-2007, 22:42
I agree they are bulky, but they must be made from very light materials (or if they aren't, don't tell my Battle Sisters who carry around Heavy Bolters and Multi Meltas on their own). Just look at the pace our composites are advancing now, in another 38,000 years things will have gone so far forward its insane, even if they have lost a lot of technology, they will still be way in advance of anything we can concieve.

Sarge
03-01-2007, 22:59
Not if you beleive the fluff that GW has set down stating that they have returned to the most basic technology, and aren't advancing any further. Which may be much more advanced than our technology in certain areas, but isn't as different as say human technology is to tau technology or even eldar.

MrBigMr
03-01-2007, 23:25
An unknown locking mechanism containing 300 rounds that are .75*dunno what* wide with a diamond tip and a heavy hydrogen core thats mass reactive, also fires in 4 round burst...
Unknown? It's right there, Sinister/Dexter. Might be a nod in the direction of Sinister Dexter comic strip. I'd assume the bolter to use a pretty standard closed bolt.
.75 caliber is about 19-20mm. And I'm assuming the 300 rounds is a typo. There's no way to fit 300 rounds in that magazine and in Inquisitor the sickle magazine holds 30 rounds.


Deuterium can't be depleted, for something to be depelted it has to be reactive first *wich it isn't* tritium is the form of hydrogen that is reactive and can be depleted *half life of 12.32yrs*. That means the bolt shell is either tritium OR not mass reactive ALSO it cannot be depleted if it still is reactive...
I'd assume deuterium just to be some technobabble form of stuff.


We have no idea what Imperial Flak armour is made from. For all we know it could be made from Ceramite plates, the same stuff power armour is made out of, with the only reason for the 5+ is it only covers the abdomen and back. Thats pure guesswork of course, like I said, we don't know what goes into its construction.
I'd think that mostly all armor is the same material. It's just the amount that varies. Would explain how a guardsman has 5+ with torso armor and helmet, while a stormtrooper gets a 4+ from full body armor of the same type.


Bolters and Storm Bolters come in two forms, cased and caseless. Cased have a faster ejection velocity, and a hell of a lot of kick, caseless ones are slower to begin with (so less powerful at short range), but little kick.
I've never heard about caseless bolters. Sure there has been some misunderstandings by people that all bolters are caseless, which they aren't. But I haven't heard that there are two types, cased and caseless.


When it come to the stats of 40K, you have to remember that it's just a balanced representation. In Inquisitor, which is way more smaller and accurate scale presentation of the world, Space Marines are about 3-4 times stronger and tougher than normal humans.
As for lasguns and bolters, I have bad memories of them. I can shoot a character in the ass (literally) with a lasgun and he won't even slow down. But a bolt will go through a heavy brick wall and knock a character off of his feet.
*shouts at the sky*
Damn you, Inquisitor Maximus Stereotypicus! I will get you! The blood of so many of my characters is on your character sheet.

TheEndIsHere
03-01-2007, 23:33
Deuterium actually is a hydrogen Isotope...

TheEndIsHere

Frodo34x
03-01-2007, 23:36
Ok than explain to me why the Storm bolter is featured with an ejector slide? And why you can plainly see casings inside the storm bolter clip?.
Because it looks pretty in pictures to have ejected cases.

MrBigMr
03-01-2007, 23:38
Deuterium actually is a hydrogen Isotope...
Yes, yes it is, but how in the hell will some isotope help the bolt? As such, in the 40K universe deuterium might be totaly different substance from hydrogen isotope.
...
Is it me or do people intentionally get me wrong today?
It's me. It's always me. People never understand what I say.

TheEndIsHere
03-01-2007, 23:47
Well they mixed up deuterium and tritium, tritium is the reactive one... Also when something is depleted it gets ahrder but loses reactivity...

TheEndIsHere

MrBigMr
03-01-2007, 23:51
Depleted deuterium sounds more like depleted uranium.
And don't they use tritium in Star Trek to turn suns into super novas and power up the warp cores, or something like that?

TheEndIsHere
04-01-2007, 00:02
Tritium is also a hydrogen Isotope: this one has 2 neutrons...

TheEndIsHere

MrBigMr
04-01-2007, 02:01
Tritium is also a hydrogen Isotope: this one has 2 neutrons...
http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/juuso007/Pics/cap'n.jpg

TheEndIsHere
04-01-2007, 02:24
WTF is that I'm so stupid I don't get it..

-.-

TheEndIsHere

EDIT: Omg I get it... how was I that stupid? *don't sig me...*

InquisitorNiels
04-01-2007, 02:39
Lets see what I can come up with really fast.

Regular Lasguns
Becomes Ap6

Hellgun
Still Ap 5
When used within 18" the gun counts as str 4.

megastar242
04-01-2007, 03:09
Personally I think that 40k close combat sucks. Why do they not have it like fantasy battle, where whomever charges gets to attack first the first round. Yes there are some weapons/abilities that make this not so but why have the differences in both games? ease of play?. This may not solve the imperial flashlight problem, but would at least make numbers count.
I am with you on the hell guns though. I mean come on, Tau reg troops get str 5 weapons. Make it at least st4, if not 5. Maybe without the ap, but still, give em a chance. As is, who would take stormtroopers vs marines.

M.

Mr_Smiley
04-01-2007, 03:24
Tau are very different from Imperial Guard. Tau can only sit and shoot, at least guard have a few cc options, thats why they have a S5 basic gun.

Currently nobody would really take Stormtroopers vs Marines, I agree that Hellguns should have some rule that makes them better against 3+ armour saves, but making them AP3 is a bit extreme, I like the idea of making them a -1 to armour saves, eg 3+ armour becomes 4+.
I also really like the idea about making Krak missile AP2 and Plasma AP3, I think that will improve both people usage of different weapons and make for some more interesting tactics.

I have been playing WH40K for long enough to know that I consider AP system a better one than ASM, its not perfect and requires some tweaking but it is good.

Sarge
04-01-2007, 03:30
But they also cost 4pts more than normal guardsmen, and have horrid weapon skills.

Don't talk about what you don't know Mr. Smiley, yes Tau can't dish it out in melee (but they sure can take it agaisnt non power weapons), but Pulse Carbines give Shas'la the ability to stay just out of the typical assault range 12" (6" move, 6" assault). The Guard can't do the same.

Mr_Smiley
04-01-2007, 03:36
But they also cost 4pts more than normal guardsmen, and have horrid weapon skills.

A Tau Firewarrior and Imperial Guard Infantry have the same basic stats.

Ok for 4 points you get:
A better gun, with better AP, Strength and range.
better armour.

I can't really see the problem here, if an upgrade existed that increased range, strength and AP of weapons as well as gave better armour and it only costed 4 points, I think everyone would take it.


Don't talk about what you don't know Mr. Smiley, yes Tau can't dish it out in melee (but they sure can take it agaisnt non power weapons), but Pulse Carbines give Shas'la the ability to stay just out of the typical assault range 12" (6" move, 6" assault). The Guard can't do the same.
I have never played against Tau, but I have played against Imperial Guard and they have assault options to help their basic units avoid CC, they can take weapons like Powerfists and Powerweapons, units like Ogryns, they can take Doctrines to help improve WS and they have large numbers which can be a turning factor in CC.

All I was trying to say was that Tau have a better gun than Imperial Guard because Tau need it more than Imperial Guard.

Sarge
04-01-2007, 03:43
Well on average, caraprace armor only costs 2pts per model (unless you get into smaller units than the cost can sky rocket up to 4pts a model, but still cheaper than caraprace armor from the armory at 5pts). This ofcourse only leaves the weapon to be upgraded. The strength and ap, I agree on, but range is out of the question. If you want a pulse rifle join the greater good, otherwise settle with what you have.

However, a doctrine that would give IG Infantry units bolters for 20 pts a unit, would be a nice deal. Given guardsmen have better WS than a Shas'la. Call it an exchange that Tau make for better range.

FashaTheDog
04-01-2007, 03:45
WTF is that I'm so stupid I don't get it..

-.-

TheEndIsHere

EDIT: Omg I get it... how was I that stupid? *don't sig me...*

It should be mandatory for everyone to sig you for that one. Just kidding.

As for the humble Imperial lasgun, I got a friend into the game partly because of them so they can't be that bad, can they? Like me has loves Frank Herbert's Dune series (his son and Anderson's are ok) and when I was pursading him to start 40K the seeling point was that there is an entire army armed with lasguns. Now what I failed to mention right away was that they were Dune's lasguns but when he pressed I admitted they were as close to Dune's lasguns as what he saw in the Dune movies. They at least peaked his interest into looking into the game and now he plays Necrons.

Mr_Smiley
04-01-2007, 03:47
I'm just saying that Imperial Guard don't really need a Pulse Rifle, whilst Tau kinda do, or at least that's how it seems.
Imperial Guard do need some form of an upgrade to weapons, mainly to guns like Hellguns and Krak Missiles.

I like the Bolter Doctrine idea.

Sarge
04-01-2007, 03:50
Because the Lasgun has to be the worst weapon in the game... besides a Devourer in the hands of a Guant... but only just barely... 2 bs3 str2 living ammo shots at 18" isn't somthing to scoff at... especially when you're facing 32 of the lil buggers... oh the nightmares... oh the terror *curls into the fetal position and tries to remember the mantras of the Tau'va*

azimaith
04-01-2007, 04:03
D) He is firing caseless ammunition with no recoil and can fire a burst on the run - Fairly likely.
Caseless weapons still have recoil and Bolters ain't caseless, its pretty obvious by the way they're shown.

The only thing caseless weapons change is that theres no ejection cycle which means rounds can be fired much faster. Considering the bolt is still going to have to move back to accept the next round theres not going to be any less recoil. Hell even weapons like railguns still have recoil, only guns that don't are recoiless rifles(Rocket launcher style weapons).


Most the the weight is in the worky bits, not the firing cylinder. Because its got a longer cylinder doesn't mean it weights a whole lot more.
This is debateable. Heavier barrels allow for more heat absorbtion which extends the life of the barrels and allows for more sustained fire. Its why a heavy machine gun can lay down heavy suppressive fire for longer periods of time than a light machine gun.



About the "ejector slide"... You need some way to removing blockages... Unless you want to start poking around the barrel of a loaded storm bolter?

Just follow Metal Storms example, the round behind the stuck round will push it out of the barrel.



Bolters and Storm Bolters come in two forms, cased and caseless. Cased have a faster ejection velocity, and a hell of a lot of kick, caseless ones are slower to begin with (so less powerful at short range), but little kick.

Never seen or even heard of this before, wheres it from?



Also, Yarrick had anti-grav stabalisers fitted to his Storm Bolter to enable him to fire it one handed. No reason why others couldn't do the same for their regiments.
Because Yarrick was the leader of an army. One could ask why doesn't every guardsman get a force field like Yarrick as well. Its expensive. I think the obvious answer is because its cool sounding. Taking GW techincal specs is ridiculous, nearly all modern weapon systems make Imperial tech look laughably primitive.

Toppan
04-01-2007, 04:41
uh i think we're veering off topic here

the topic was lasguns...and how they suck...wait...no...WHY they suck

every other race has a weapon better than the lasgun for their basic troops, however, look at the resources of the imperium vs. the rest of the armies
excuse me if this smells like my hole

Orks:scrounge anything up to make anything pretty much
Tyranids:living stuff=their stuff
Tau:unsure...factories?
Necrons:automatically have it i assume
Eldar:made long ago i think
Dark eldar:same as eldar, just stolen and changed a bit i think
Marines:forgeworlds
CSM: plundered forgeworlds
and finally
IG:mass produced low quality weapons from forgeworlds i assume

now not all of these are built for quality, but some are. IG's arent...at all. the only thing quality about a gaurdsman is maybe his fashion sense or...uh...courage?

...

maybe im just talking out of my ass

Yorrik
04-01-2007, 06:53
Am I the only one who thinks that guardsman OUGHT to have the worst basic gun in the game? That Storm Troopers SHOULDN'T be able to go toe to toe with power armored units? That the appeal of guardsmen is that they're simply NOT as good as everybody else when you just roll out their statlines?

I like the idea that the 10,000 year old chaos terminator can't really tell between a soldier with a lasgun and a soldier with a hellgun. To him, they're all so many mewling meatbags - it doesn't matter that one of them happens to have his gun hooked up to a backpack.

Guard players have to play smart, but I like that. A guard general learns how to make sacrifices - using a squad of guardsman to lure a squad of Khorne Berserkers into a kill zone, where crossfires and press of saves can do their work.

I don't need better stats for the hellgun. I don't need any one unit that worries my opponent. I like having an army that is able to accomplish a lot more than the sum of its stats.

Ravenous
04-01-2007, 06:59
I remember reading one story in a white dwarf years ago that a lasgun could blow the head off of a marine you just need to use the lascartridge on max itsnot suggested as they can explode and it takes up the whole cartridge.

So essentially lasguns could be used like that but there is no rules for it. Probably something like S6 AP3 heavy 1, gets hot!

MrBigMr
04-01-2007, 10:13
So about 50 mandatory (2 troop choises) S6 AP3 shots going off at the first round? I can see a tidal wave of whining from pretty much every player in town.
I think the idea of blowing a marines head off is pretty much the same as blowing anyone else's head off. The Marine helmet isn't so much more durable than any other helmet. If hit in the right way, it'll get penetrated by a bullet/lasbolt.

Ravenous
04-01-2007, 10:27
I wouldnt suggest it for game terms at all. In the same story "full blast" lasguns would punch holes in chaos marine armour as well. So its not limited to the helmet. And in the same story they were doing quite well against chaos until they started running out of cartridges. Most of them only carried 10 each.

The_Outsider
04-01-2007, 10:30
.....Or how about we give both IG and Tau the same gun, make them BS4 and keep the pts the same.

Gun Rng 30" S5 AP3 pinning.

CLEARLY that solves all the problems and is completely fluffy.

OR you could just play IG how its meant to be and just use a F-ton of guardsmen, but thats just madness.

wingedserpant
04-01-2007, 11:04
Yes, but armours are rounded for a reason - to deflect bullets. Unless you hit a sphere dead on the centre, chances are your shot will bounce off. If thats a beam of light, it will be reflected, sure, just as it would if you hit it dead on, but a lot more of the energy would be transfered to the point of impact (? not sure of the correct term for a laser beam..).

I do think laser beam is the correct term. Perhaps just laser.

Anyways. Giving lasguns an AP would just raise the cost of a gun that will take away a save which is rarely ever going to pass. AP5 is sometimes useful but AP only start to really matter above AP4. Hey, put bolters down to AP- and it won' make alot of difference. It would just not fit the fluff.

Fluff is another reason. Bolters are made with expensive materials and are rare.[they are pink in the middle, bm bm ssshh] but lasguns are mass produced with cheap materials.

Partisan Rimmo
04-01-2007, 17:54
I like things the way they are now.

Fluff wise, why should a lasgun be any better than an autogun? Why? Lasguns are cheaper to produce than autoguns, and easier to maintain. Hence, their have a more widespread usage. Personally, I've always quite liked the idea of Autoguns being actually more powerful than las. There's something about a laser burning you that can't compare to having dozens of rifle rounds hammered into you. But, of course, in the 10 points strength restrictions, both are 3, and that's fine.

On the other hand, bolt guns are the apotheosis of projectile weaponary. I won't go into why they are so great. Entire essays exist on the topic online. But you can knock down a brick wall with them quite easily. They have POWER. Unfortunatly, due to the proliferation of MEQs, S4 is taken for granted. S4 is exceedingly high power. To take the modern equivalent, and large high power machine gun, like the SAW, and it's 40K equivalent, the Heavy Stubber, this is the equivalent of S4. If an M16 was to be translated into 40K, it wouldn't even have an AP. I like to think that as far as bolt weapons are concerned, it's the explosion that gives them S4, and the speed of the round that gives it AP5. Two separate componants have two separate effects. Hell guns are the equivalent of lasguns which have been perfected. Sounds like an AP5 scenario to me. A hellgun is no where near as power as a boltgun. Because the 'elite' stormtroopers still immensly outnumber the marines. No matter how elite you want your stormies to be, marines are always a damn sight more elite.

Lasguns are inferior as they are basically a jolt of heat that can cut into human flesh, assuming it is not armoured, in the same way that a bullet will bore into human flesh unless it hits kevlar. Boltguns, well, boltguns rock my world. Material just dissappears before them. Steel, monstrous creature flesh, stonework, all is simply torn through by the whirlwind of explosions.

Gamewise, I see your point. The Hellgun/Lasgun change makes little difference. Getting a 5+ save against shooting is near mythical. But I think this is a sign of more radical changes that should be made to the game, rather than compromising the various weapon's natures.

Sarge
04-01-2007, 18:07
.....Or how about we give both IG and Tau the same gun, make them BS4 and keep the pts the same.

Gun Rng 30" S5 AP3 pinning.

CLEARLY that solves all the problems and is completely fluffy.

OR you could just play IG how its meant to be and just use a F-ton of guardsmen, but thats just madness.

That, luckily, will never happen. Tau need their uber long range gun, IG just gotta settle with what they got, that or join the Greater Good.

guillimansknight
04-01-2007, 18:45
I like things the way they are now.

Fluff wise, why should a lasgun be any better than an autogun? Why? Lasguns are cheaper to produce than autoguns, and easier to maintain. Hence, their have a more widespread usage. Personally, I've always quite liked the idea of Autoguns being actually more powerful than las. There's something about a laser burning you that can't compare to having dozens of rifle rounds hammered into you. But, of course, in the 10 points strength restrictions, both are 3, and that's fine.



whats the stats on an auto gun/pistol i have never found them

Slaaneshi Slave
04-01-2007, 18:48
In 40k they are exactly the same as a lasgun.

Sarge
04-01-2007, 18:53
4th ed, they used to have worse stats in earlier eds if my sources are correct.

Slaaneshi Slave
04-01-2007, 19:04
This is RT stuff, I don't remember from 2nd Ed.

Lasgun:

Str 3, -1 Armour, Short range = 0-12", Long range = 12-24"

Autogun:

Str 3, -1 Armour, Short range = 0-12", Long range = 12-36"

So you can see, the Autogun has always been slightly better.

Frodo34x
04-01-2007, 19:05
whats the stats on an auto gun/pistol i have never found them
Strength 42 Ap -3 24" Assualt 2.

Opponent's permission only.

Sarge
04-01-2007, 19:20
Ok, so they have better range... that makes sense, but 36"? What was the range of the bolter back then?

MrBigMr
04-01-2007, 19:27
Fluff wise, why should a lasgun be any better than an autogun? Why? Lasguns are cheaper to produce than autoguns, and easier to maintain. Hence, their have a more widespread usage. Personally, I've always quite liked the idea of Autoguns being actually more powerful than las. There's something about a laser burning you that can't compare to having dozens of rifle rounds hammered into you. But, of course, in the 10 points strength restrictions, both are 3, and that's fine.
Well, actualy the laser pulse causes rapid heating of the target surface and a small explosion.
In Inquisitor a lasgun has strenght of 2D6 while autogun has 2D6+2. But some lasguns can boost the strenght up to 2D6+5 at the cost or more ammo per shot. Autopistol and laspistol are both 2D6.

Slaaneshi Slave
04-01-2007, 19:30
Ok, so they have better range... that makes sense, but 36"? What was the range of the bolter back then?

Max range on a Bolter was 24", and had Str 4, and -1 saves. Not much better than a lasgun, and I would say only better than an autogun in certain circumstances. So really, why is the bolter so much better than anything else out there now? :p

guillimansknight
04-01-2007, 19:33
Max range on a Bolter was 24", and had Str 4, and -1 saves. Not much better than a lasgun, and I would say only better than an autogun in certain circumstances. So really, why is the bolter so much better than anything else out there now? :p

deathwatch bolters are the best then pulse rifles

ahh str 4 ap 4 24" rapid fire (would love it on a strom bolter)

bolters are good because they always have been good

Slaaneshi Slave
04-01-2007, 19:36
deathwatch bolters are the best then pulse rifles

ahh str 4 ap 4 24" rapid fire (would love it on a strom bolter)

bolters are good because they always have been good

If you want to get nitpicky, Sisters of Battle bolters are the best, Str 4, AP 5 / AP 1 24" rapid fire.

guillimansknight
04-01-2007, 19:39
If you want to get nitpicky, Sisters of Battle bolters are the best, Str 4, AP 5 / AP 1 24" rapid fire.

i treid that (apparently i cant pull it off more than 5 times and thats if i spend a ton of pts on elites and HQ)

Slaaneshi Slave
04-01-2007, 19:47
SoB power is in its massed bolter fire, i.e. troops, so I'm not sure what spending a tonne of points on elites and hq does... o.O

guillimansknight
04-01-2007, 19:50
SoB power is in its massed bolter fire, i.e. troops, so I'm not sure what spending a tonne of points on elites and hq does... o.O

i was told (on warseer) that i needed faith points to use it and that only certain elites and HQ choices got me faith points

Slaaneshi Slave
04-01-2007, 19:53
This is so off topic... :D

Veterans in normal Battle Sister squads get you faith points too, a canoness (your basic HQ) gets you two, seraphim get you one, with or without a veteran, celestians do the same. Veteran Sisters in other battle sister squads get you another point. Killing a faithful model, or the last model in a faithful unit will get you its faith points refunded (isn't it great when women come with a cash back guaruntee?).

For more info, check the Codex! Failing that, look in the Tactica Witchhunter thread.

azimaith
04-01-2007, 20:06
Lasguns are inferior as they are basically a jolt of heat that can cut into human flesh, assuming it is not armoured, in the same way that a bullet will bore into human flesh unless it hits kevlar.

One of the most unexplored aspects of 40k Lasers that are very present in real world lasers is that they set you on fire. So its now "Pew pew" now you got two cuts. Its "Pew Pew" now your Johnny Human Torch. Then again, marines probably don't exactly catch on fire well.



Boltguns, well, boltguns rock my world. Material just dissappears before them. Steel, monstrous creature flesh, stonework, all is simply torn through by the whirlwind of explosions.

Bolt guns are about the equivalent of a modern day .50 with a .50 explosive tip smacked on em. If you've seen a .50 a wall you'd be pretty impressed.



Gamewise, I see your point. The Hellgun/Lasgun change makes little difference. Getting a 5+ save against shooting is near mythical. But I think this is a sign of more radical changes that should be made to the game, rather than compromising the various weapon's natures.
I don't think getting a 5+ save is so amazing considering cat sized rippers get a 6+ save. 5+ is basically heavy kevlar style armor adapted to 40k weaponry. Honestly, rather than seeing more low AP weapons, I want to see more AP- weapons. I want necrons with S3 Assault 2/3(12") AP- guns, and guard to keep their S3 AP- lasguns. I'd like to see Hellguns with S4 AP- as well


Well, actualy the laser pulse causes rapid heating of the target surface and a small explosion.

The best explanation i've seen for the whole explosion thing is that it causes liquid, usually water, to superheat and spontanously boil just like if you put water in the microwave in a glass, narrow mouth jar, causing an explosion as the steam forces its way out.

Sarge
04-01-2007, 20:07
That's why I love them so much, women, not Sisters of Battle, as they don't put out as often, or as willing lol

So yes, the power of SoB lists are massed bolter fire, why do you think you get 10-20 model strong troop choices?

xibo
04-01-2007, 21:44
hmmm... i'll just mention an eldar guardian had the same chance of surviving a bolter wound as a marine who got one by an autocannon. Nowadays the guardian has NO chance of surviving a bolter shot, and a marine has a 2/3 chance of surviving that 120mm explosive projectile in his face?
Shooty Marines own every nonMEq, including tau, in static gunline battles and everybody is complaining that 40k got so shooty... don't tell guard are so freaking more, because guard can put about twice to three times as many models on the table, but boltgun-marines are EIGHT(4/9 vs 1/18) times more effective at killing guardsmen than lasgun-guardsmen are on marines.

I didn't start this thread because i was annoyed that lasguns suck, but because i wondered how bolters can be that much better? Remember its the imperial GUARD, the emperors hammer, the guys who actualy capture and hold stuff, not any ferral world's hive millitia that is equiped with lasguns. Lasguns are supposed to be effective and simple, not just simple. And with effective I mean 'penetrate guardian armour 2/3 of the times'. You actually know the guardians armour's fluff? It is NOT supposed to not be able to withstand a bolter shot.

Sarge
04-01-2007, 21:49
I doubt that shooty marines out shoot Tau, especially with markerlights, and no scenarios where marines miraculously apear at 24" or even 12" without taking causualities.

Slaaneshi Slave
04-01-2007, 21:55
Like drop pods, you mean?

xibo
04-01-2007, 21:59
The markerlight thing is something powerfull, i have to admit. However there are seldomly more than one pathfinder squads around, and you can heavy bolter the pathfinders and the markerdrones fairly easy... Against tau any heavy support choice other than havocs/devastors is not going to make it to round 2, so you might find lots of heavy bolters there ( 4 to talk in numbers, as you also need that 8 lascannons to get rid of the broadsides/hammerheads )

Sarge
04-01-2007, 22:00
Yes, exactly, to both statements. I rarely ever see pods unless the army is assault oriented, and markerlights are a god send (or should I say Aun send?) for the BS3 Tau. Especially since the standard marine costs 15pts while Fire Warriors only cost 10, means you can get 3 FW to ever 2 SM, and we all know how many Aun forsaken static Tau armies there are. Too many.

guillimansknight
04-01-2007, 22:13
Yes, exactly, to both statements. I rarely ever see pods unless the army is assault oriented, and markerlights are a god send (or should I say Aun send?) for the BS3 Tau. Especially since the standard marine costs 15pts while Fire Warriors only cost 10, means you can get 3 FW to ever 2 SM, and we all know how many Aun forsaken static Tau armies there are. Too many.

ahh drop pods i love them great for my BT, no i aint a "ohh new shiny thing" BT player. Iv played them since i started also i get extras and dont lose anything i didnt use, go me!!

also ML's hurt! (so do broadsides the wannabe obliterator B*******!!!!!)

anyone else think this is turning into a disscusion thread between Slaaneshi Slave, sarge, xibo and me

Slaaneshi Slave
04-01-2007, 22:35
Most threads do.

I can't say that I have ever played against Tau (I don't think I am missing much, really), but if you could find a way to ensure a good portion of your army comes at once, I think pods could be an excellent way of getting a short ranged Marine army in. Maybe thats because I'm used to playing SoB, so my Marines will use similar tactics. Possibly a Comd Rhino?

xibo
04-01-2007, 22:51
Hmmm tomorrow I'll force my mates to field a 1000pts BOLTERWIELDING world eaters army ( ok, IW colour scheme, but who cares? ), and myself will field only sharpshooting lasgun guardsmen ( those who can't take lasguns shall take boltguns ) ... on a dessert table. Just want to see what happens...

guillimansknight
04-01-2007, 22:53
Hmmm tomorrow I'll force my mates to field a 1000pts BOLTERWIELDING world eaters army ( ok, IW colour scheme, but who cares? ), and myself will field only sharpshooting lasgun guardsmen ( those who can't take lasguns shall take boltguns ) ... on a dessert table. Just want to see what happens...

lots of dead WE and 30 odd dead guardsmen

FashaTheDog
04-01-2007, 23:06
Anyone else think this is turning into a disscusion thread between Slaaneshi Slave, sarge, xibo and me

Truthfully, you four sound like a bunch of old men sitting in front of the town's general store on a lazy summer day yapping about the good old days, the weather, price of bread, and what not.

As for drop pods, another player in my area and myself both regularly field drop pod Marine armies and both of our armies are excel at short firefights. At under 12" few armies can weather shooting phases and generally find themselves stuck shooting at the drop pod "shields" because of how what came in landed. Rapid firing bolters, heavy flamers, assault cannons, stormbolters, meltaguns, plasma guns, Fear of the Dark, and the threat of Dreadnoughts and Terminators charging next turn are all very powerful. Even if they pop the drop pod, they are generally stuck with a nice piece of wreckage blocking line of sight for the rest of their army. As a result what comes in will not outgun the entire enemy army, but it will outgun everything that can draw line of sight to them.

Slaaneshi Slave
04-01-2007, 23:13
Sounds like you should be playing Sisters of Battle. Exchange the words "Drop Pod" with "Rhino" and you just perfectly described a SoB game plan.

guillimansknight
04-01-2007, 23:14
Truthfully, you four sound like a bunch of old men sitting in front of the town's general store on a lazy summer day yapping about the good old days, the weather, price of bread, and what not.

As for drop pods, another player in my area and myself both regularly field drop pod Marine armies and both of our armies are excel at short firefights. At under 12" few armies can weather shooting phases and generally find themselves stuck shooting at the drop pod "shields" because of how what came in landed. Rapid firing bolters, heavy flamers, assault cannons, stormbolters, meltaguns, plasma guns, Fear of the Dark, and the threat of Dreadnoughts and Terminators charging next turn are all very powerful. Even if they pop the drop pod, they are generally stuck with a nice piece of wreckage blocking line of sight for the rest of their army. As a result what comes in will not outgun the entire enemy army, but it will outgun everything that can draw line of sight to them.


"sarge i see breads went down by 4 pence this week" lol

oh ta (old men, ill bash yar skull in ya grechtin luvin git) im accutly a late 3rd ed player and im waaay younger than most on warseer


i once traped a russ in a "wall " of pods with the help of the building it was backed up to (hehe) it couldnt get out even after it earned 3 kills ahh one of my finest moments

xibo
04-01-2007, 23:26
i once traped a russ in a "wall " of pods with the help of the building it was backed up to (hehe) it couldnt get out even after it earned 3 kills ahh one of my finest moments
hahaahaaa awesome!

guillimansknight
04-01-2007, 23:34
hahaahaaa awesome!

yep

so xibo where has this thread gone why are bolters better than lasguns, what is a kark missle compred to a mordern compact anti-tank missile, to depleted whatever and to drop pods

well thats quite a bit

Nodachi-Widowmaker
04-01-2007, 23:41
@xibo
That just reminded me. How come the Imperial Guard, forces sent to liberate xeno-worlds, defend planets and stage crusades, how come they get weaker weapons compared to the Adeptus Arbites?
The Imperiums own POLICE force has better weapons than the regular guardsmen. A guardsman's lasgun is Str 3 AP -, A law enforcer's shotgun can be Str 4 AP 5 (re-roll to hit)! Practically, this implies that the Imperium's worst enemy is the Imperium itself!
It's nice to think we have forces which can uphold the law but what's going on with the forces protecting the Imperium?!

Slaaneshi Slave
04-01-2007, 23:50
There are only 1,000,000 Marines, meaning they can afford to give them the best of the best. There are not that many Adeptus Arbites either, meaning they get decent kit. Some worlds have more Guardsman than there are marines in the entire galaxy, and there are a 1,000,000 inhabited worlds in the Imperium. Imagine kitting all those out with Bolters, and keeping the supply lines running? It would be impossible, so they get a weapon and armour they can maintain themselves and which needs no ammunition.

guillimansknight
04-01-2007, 23:50
@xibo
That just reminded me. How come the Imperial Guard, forces sent to liberate xeno-worlds, defend planets and stage crusades, how come they get weaker weapons compared to the Adeptus Arbites?
The Imperiums own POLICE force has better weapons than the regular guardsmen. A guardsman's lasgun is Str 3 AP -, A law enforcer's shotgun can be Str 4 AP 5 (re-roll to hit)! Practically, this implies that the Imperium's worst enemy is the Imperium itself!
It's nice to think we have forces which can uphold the law but what's going on with the forces protecting the Imperium?!

errmmm......dying by the millions of billions(brit billions ) every day

Mr_Smiley
04-01-2007, 23:52
Realistically Adeptus Arbites should have the las gun as it would be perfect against unarmoured people.

Slaaneshi Slave
04-01-2007, 23:53
They don't really want to kill civilians though, so they get a Shotgun, which can be loaded with non-lethel rounds.

guillimansknight
04-01-2007, 23:57
They don't really want to kill civilians though, so they get a Shotgun, which can be loaded with non-lethel rounds.

last time i checked shooting them in the leg (not with a bolter, bloody blow them apart) was non-lethel

Slaaneshi Slave
04-01-2007, 23:59
What good is a civilian if you put a hole through his leg? He is worse than dead then, he cannot work and must leech of the rest of the population to survive. Much better to simply shoot him with a rubber round to knock him out, so he can carry on as normal later on.

mistformsquirrel
05-01-2007, 00:15
Something that has probably been mentioned at one point or other, but I feel like adding for the sake of adding it >.>

For every 1 single marine you get, you get 2 and a half guardsmen.

So, as an example - 10 marines up against 25 guardsmen with lasguns.

Marines shoot - 7 hit, 5 wound (no save), 5 dead guardsmen.

Guardsmen shoot, 12 hits, 5 wounds, 2 kills.

(All stats roughly guesstimated)

30 points either way am I right? I mean sure, 25 men only killing 2 *sounds* awful - but when you look at it statistically, that's actually not horrible at all compared to the number of points you paid. The marine special weapons also are mostly good against MEQs unless they get close enough to use a flamer, and a tactical squad with a heavy weapon is going to be facing almost assuredly 2 or 3 heavy weapons on the other end. (Not to mention the plasma guns and grenade launchers the guard may have).

For costs, I'm not seeing the problem really... yeah the Guard's Lasgun is crappy >.> but there are a gillion of them compared to said marines.

Hellguns though I agree could use *some* sort of a boost. I still like the idea of them being Assault 2 - though perhaps I am biased by the way I used to use Karskins in Dawn of War >.>

Now someone is going to slug me and tell me how horribly wrong I am.

xibo
05-01-2007, 00:23
12 hits score 4 wounds and 1 kill statistically, but thats not such a great difference. Guard has LD7, and that means 50% prob the remains of the guard squad you shot will run away, leaving your 8/9 marines vs 15 guardsmen.

Mr_Smiley
05-01-2007, 00:24
What you've said makes sense, I believe that the lasgun is fine, its weapons like the Krak missile and Hellguns that need tweaking.

Sarge
05-01-2007, 00:49
Ontop of which you can give them a save against bolters for roughly 2pts a model (as long as the unit is 10 men strong). So 8pts a peice for Guardsmen with Caraprace, and 15pts a peice for Astartes.

That's 8 Marines against 15 Caraprace Armored Guardsmen, or 16 Marines against 30 Caraprace Armored Guardsmen.

16 Shots, 11 hits, 7 wounds, 4 saves, 3 dead.
30 Shots, 15 hits, 5 wounds, 3 saves, 2 dead.

Doesn't sound so bad now does it? Sure they killed a 10th of your force, but you killed an 8th.

Slaaneshi Slave
05-01-2007, 00:52
You also need to factor in that the Guardsmen are likely to have 3 heavy bolters / lascannon / rocket launchers and 3 plasma guns in there too. Kill count quickly goes up in the Guardsmens favour. This is what Imperial Guard were designed for.

mistformsquirrel
05-01-2007, 00:55
You can also give your guardsman, for half a point a model (5 points to the squad), a Vox caster, to give them Ld9 or even 10 if you have a comissar in your command squad. Not so easy to break then.

Yeah, lasguns are trash - but the guard don't just bring their lasguns and unless you REALLY kit your guardsmen out - you're still going to vastly outnumber the astartes. Plus, you can force them to come to you - halving their range and giving you free shots.

Etc...

Sarge
05-01-2007, 01:00
Even if the Commissar happens to kill the officer too.

odmiller
05-01-2007, 01:28
Start to add in the Guard's tanks and transport options and things equal out quickly.

I play a decent combined arms guard force and have no more trouble against marines than any other opponent. However, an all infantry IG force would most likely get owned. But that's a play style then isn't it, not taking best advantage of the army list.

If you're expecting a infantry guard army to outshoot an infantry marine force, it's not going to happen. And it shouldn't frankly. Marines are the ultimate warrior, with the ultimate weapons, and the ultimate armor. They are individual killing machines. Think about the Ciaphas Cain book where 1 Chaos marine is wiping out an entire guard squad, and likely him too until Jugen shoots him with a melta gun. That's about right.

However, the guard have developed a range of options not available to marines. Guard armor loves killing marines, it's made for it. If you don't want to field a combined arms force, then don't, but then don't complain either. You can't hold anyone else responsible for you not using half the army list.

Stormtroopers are available much more readily (especially with Grendier Doctrine) than Hardened Vets, who can only have one squad I think. And as said earlier, unless you're giving your entire army carapace, their 4+ armor save is a huge lift. As for the hellgun, it's made to kill the equivilent of other guardsmen in other forces. And it does, well. It's not made to kill marines, except in the same way other las-guns are, through massed application.

This discussion goes through 10 pages of trying to make a square peg fit a round hole. The IG have plently of power armor killing machines. The hellgun is not one of them, and it's not meant to be.

Slaaneshi Slave
05-01-2007, 01:34
Pretty sure you didn't read the thread if you think its 10 pages about bolters and lasguns. :p This is one of those awesome multi-purpose threads you get occasionally.

mistformsquirrel
05-01-2007, 01:39
Pretty sure you didn't read the thread if you think its 10 pages about bolters and lasguns. :p This is one of those awesome multi-purpose threads you get occasionally.

It's the swiss army knife of threads. It's sexy like that! <^_^>

Misanthrope
05-01-2007, 01:43
At the very least I think the Hellgun should be assault, or that Stormtroopers and/or regular IG troops should have access to some sort of carbine assault weapon that is Assault 2 rather than Rapid Fire. Perhaps with 18" range or summat.

odmiller
05-01-2007, 01:49
Pretty sure you didn't read the thread if you think its 10 pages about bolters and lasguns. :p This is one of those awesome multi-purpose threads you get occasionally.

I actually read every single post. However, despite the digressions into krak missiles, terminators getting stepped on, and lots of real world weapons talk, the thread started with a question, and almost every page, this one included, have at least cursory relavance to the starting question.

As for the real world mechanics of anti-tank weaponry, I think 40k's mechanics and game play force it to be so far removed from reality that the discussion just doesn't really work. The last thing you would expect to see on battlefields of tomorrow are massed infantry charges into the teeth of enemy fire points,, or two full armies standing 50 yards from each other blasting away with everything they've got, but that's what 40k is.

Slaaneshi Slave
05-01-2007, 01:51
Or entire armies not carrying any food or spare ammunition. :p

mistformsquirrel
05-01-2007, 03:02
At the very least I think the Hellgun should be assault, or that Stormtroopers and/or regular IG troops should have access to some sort of carbine assault weapon that is Assault 2 rather than Rapid Fire. Perhaps with 18" range or summat.

Here's a doctrine I saw suggested on another board - I mentioned it in another thread and damn if I don't like it:

Lascarbines - 18" Range, Str 3, AP -, Assault 2, +1 Point per model.

Sure some might think "But that's like gaining 6" of rapid fire!" - it's also losing 6" of regular fire, and if you're moving and shooting, you aren't sitting and using heavy weapons.

Hellguns I've said 3 or 4 times in this thread - Assault 2 - Yes please!

mistformsquirrel
05-01-2007, 03:04
I actually read every single post. However, despite the digressions into krak missiles, terminators getting stepped on, and lots of real world weapons talk, the thread started with a question, and almost every page, this one included, have at least cursory relavance to the starting question.

As for the real world mechanics of anti-tank weaponry, I think 40k's mechanics and game play force it to be so far removed from reality that the discussion just doesn't really work. The last thing you would expect to see on battlefields of tomorrow are massed infantry charges into the teeth of enemy fire points,, or two full armies standing 50 yards from each other blasting away with everything they've got, but that's what 40k is.

Or for that matter mounted troopers on horseback trying to lance enemies <,<

My explanation for Terminator armor resisting Krak missiles btw - the Refractor field causes the missile to detonate *before* it actually strikes the armor, so the explosion occurs before the missile even hits the terminator, this dissipating its force.

Lord Humongous
05-01-2007, 04:11
Not that its really relevant to the thread, but what amazes me is that the Imperial forces have ANY effective laser weaponry, let alone man-portable small arms and (even more shocking) anti-tank laser weapons.

Really, the energy densities needed in those things (the laser components and especially the power supplies, aka batteries) is just mind blowing. Whatever ways the Imperium might be technologically "backwords", it is certainly NOT in the fields of laser and power technologies.

Reflex
05-01-2007, 05:24
Space Marines obviously needed something more. :p

agree'd....

the_raptor
05-01-2007, 06:23
Not that its really relevant to the thread, but what amazes me is that the Imperial forces have ANY effective laser weaponry, let alone man-portable small arms and (even more shocking) anti-tank laser weapons.

Really, the energy densities needed in those things (the laser components and especially the power supplies, aka batteries) is just mind blowing. Whatever ways the Imperium might be technologically "backwords", it is certainly NOT in the fields of laser and power technologies.

They are technologically backwards, and at the same time surpass our level of technology for nearly everything. The problem is they treat their technology religiously and have no idea how anything works.

Las gun power packs are fun. If you shorted one out you could probably vaporise a Leman Russ ^^

xibo
05-01-2007, 11:07
However, an all infantry IG force would most likely get owned. But that's a play style then isn't it, not taking best advantage of the army list.
Hmm lemme see:

Command Squads
Mortar Team Squads, Fire Support Squads, Anti Tank Weapon Team Squads, Special Weapon Team Squads
Advisors
Hardened Veterans
Ogryns
Ratlings
Stormtroopers
Infantry Platoons
Conscripts Platoons
Mobile Infantry, Kimera
Sentinells
Rough Riders

vs

Kimera Hellhound
Leman Russ
Leman Russ Demolisher
Bassilisk

See. It's one fourth of the list that I'm not willing to take. Now compare to this:

Lord,Lieutnand
Chosen
Possessed
Space Marines
Raptors
Bikers
Dreadnoughts
Predators
Land Raiders

vs

Oblits
Havocs
Defilers
Bassilisks
Vindicators

One third of the army list. Obviously Iron Warriors deserve being defeated if they don't make intensive use of the later items? :eyebrows:

Besides, there is actually an Armoured Company variant-list for the Imperial Guard, so I think IG should be still competitive vs Marines without tanks.

EDIT: it's one fourth/one third, of cause

Baldemyr
05-01-2007, 13:21
I guess im in the minority but I LIKE the new armour rules-the old version with modifiers to your rolls had no one ever having a chance to save wearing only a flak vest (just about every weapon had a -1 AP).
For Hellguns, we just cheesed and said they perform as "master crafted"-I know I lose a few more marines to them but so what-the marines will heal and the Stormtroopers are the Green Berets of 40k.

Lasguns always annoyed me-because against my marines, my friend was left deploying heavy weapons teams with autocannons which REALY changed the nature of his army. We are now expiramenting with giving them longer range (lasrifles)to give troopers another round of fire -if they are lucky.

xibo
05-01-2007, 13:41
Yeah, guardsmen died in droves those days and they do now. Nothings wrong with that. The point is, GW inconsequently converted ASM to AP. It becomes most obvious when a chaos cultist beared machine gun has better AP then the pintle-mounted one in the new guard codex. If you transfer directly, orks(AS6+) didn't get saves against neither bolt- nor lasguns, so both deserve at least AP6. Eldar Guardians(5+) had saves against bolt- and lasguns those days, so bolters should NOT ignore Guardian armour these days, right?

... Shuriken Catapults used to be same the strong but better penetrating than bolters those days, now shuriken cats just suck because they were reduced in range AND actually became same the bad in piercing things as a boltgun --> shuriken catapults are crap today, and IMO they are even worse than lasguns.

guillimansknight
05-01-2007, 13:42
They are technologically backwards, and at the same time surpass our level of technology for nearly everything. The problem is they treat their technology religiously and have no idea how anything works.

Las gun power packs are fun. If you shorted one out you could probably vaporise a Leman Russ ^^

and warp travel plasma melta

its the ideas which are backwards like "praise the machine spirt"

Partisan Rimmo
05-01-2007, 17:03
Bolt guns are about the equivalent of a modern day .50 with a .50 explosive tip smacked on em. If you've seen a .50 a wall you'd be pretty impressed.


Good sir, you speak madness!

Bolt shells move fast. Very fast. Certainly faster than an M16 for example.

The bolt does not change it's rate of ignition. Rather, it has a two stage fuel step. The two fuels are probably made from totally different substances. When the trigger is pulled, the bolt weapon activates the first, small fuel supply, causing the shell to begin to exit the gun at maybe a few hundred miles an hour (fast enough considering painball guns can do this at 180 with virtually no recoil, though they use compressed gas) Once the bolt is maybe a few inches out of the gun, the first fuel supply is used up, and the second ignites. This is the big stuff. Now, no one knows the exact speed, but I seem to recall in GW cannon references to either close to or over supersonic speeds. That would mean bolt shells break the sound barrier, but if you read descriptions of bolt weapons, they're described as being shockingly loud, so I guess that's ok. This means that despite a moderate start, the bolt shell moves much faster than a normal bullet, simply as if a normal bullet could be developed that had a propellant capable of such speeds it would probably tear the gun apart. The boltgun's two stage process removes this limitation.

Also, and I know this quite reliably, bolt shells do NOT have a timed fuse so that they exlode in their target. They are 'mass reactive'. What this means is that probably about 2 inches along from the tip of the shell there is a very sensitive pressure sensitive zone going all round the shell. When the entire zone detects it is in contact with something, bang. The shell detonates. Also, however, the tip of the shell is sensitive to VERY heavy impacts. The means that even if the shell slams into armour and bounces off, it will still explode on contact. The size of the explosion can be debated, but I would imagine if it hits a human body straight on then a 4/5" circumfrance isn't ridiculous. Given that these things are fired on automatic, very destructive.

There are a few instances where the bolt shell might struggle to operate. It would shoot straight through glass for example. I question whether it would shoot from something such as a matress, or blow it apart first. It would probably also require heavy modification to function underwater. But still, bolt weapons are nigh on the perfect solid projectile rifle. They combine immense velocities with high precision heavy destruction. Their speed alone allows them to punch through most armour, and the explosive charges tears through anything it hits. Modern gun manufacturers can dream on.

Bolter technology is just that, a level of technology, like a plasma gun or melta, for example. It's not just an existing form of weapon made bigger and better. It's the next level, designed to be different from scratch.


And for my next trick...


However, an all infantry IG force would most likely get owned. But that's a play style then isn't it, not taking best advantage of the army list.

I play all infantry Guardsmen as my main army. I intend to take it to the Grand Tournament this year. And I can assure you, they are lacking in no respect. Any army with 132 models, 13 meltaguns, 6 plasma guns, 8 flamers, 2 demo charges, 7 hidden power fists and is all infiltraiting/deep striking WILL cause your enemy problems.

I think something that is often forgot is lasguns vs. bolters against MEQs. Example:

4 Space Marines = 10 Guardsmen, agreed?
Say everyone is withint 12" range

Marines - 8 shots - 5.3 hits - 2.6 wounds - 0.88 casualties

Guardsmen - 20 shots - 10 hits - 3.3 wounds - 1.1 casualties


Massed lasguns are in fact startlingly ferocious, an error many opponant of mine has made. Spending 300 points on 4 squads with plasmas and maybe a few heavy weapons will shore up a flank agaisnt all but the most determined infantry advance if deployed in cover. Even the advances of dreadnoughts and the like can be stopped. Leaving you the remaining 80&#37; of your points to begin having fun with. I lurve lasguns.

odmiller
05-01-2007, 17:48
Hmm lemme see:

Command Squads
Mortar Team Squads, Fire Support Squads, Anti Tank Weapon Team Squads, Special Weapon Team Squads
Advisors
Hardened Veterans
Ogryns
Ratlings
Stormtroopers
Infantry Platoons
Conscripts Platoons
Mobile Infantry, Kimera
Sentinells
Rough Riders

vs

Kimera Hellhound
Leman Russ
Leman Russ Demolisher
Bassilisk

See. It's one fourth of the list that I'm not willing to take. Now compare to this:

Lord,Lieutnand
Chosen
Possessed
Space Marines
Raptors
Bikers
Dreadnoughts
Predators
Land Raiders

vs

Oblits
Havocs
Defilers
Bassilisks
Vindicators

One third of the army list. Obviously Iron Warriors deserve being defeated if they don't make intensive use of the later items? :eyebrows:

Besides, there is actually an Armoured Company variant-list for the Imperial Guard, so I think IG should be still competitive vs Marines without tanks.

EDIT: it's one fourth/one third, of cause

Umm, I'm not sure that's a logical argument you're making. You can't compare unrelated list and unrelated units and expect to have the same effects.

My point is, I guess, that you are making a list with no heavy support and asking why it doesn't really affect the most heavily armored army in the game. Even then, from your list above you have potential in almost all those units to have insta-kill weapons, just not in the hands of your basically armed infantry (storm troopers included).

Laughingmonk
05-01-2007, 23:12
Yeah, guardsmen died in droves those days and they do now. Nothings wrong with that. The point is, GW inconsequently converted ASM to AP. It becomes most obvious when a chaos cultist beared machine gun has better AP then the pintle-mounted one in the new guard codex. If you transfer directly, orks(AS6+) didn't get saves against neither bolt- nor lasguns, so both deserve at least AP6. Eldar Guardians(5+) had saves against bolt- and lasguns those days, so bolters should NOT ignore Guardian armour these days, right?

... Shuriken Catapults used to be same the strong but better penetrating than bolters those days, now shuriken cats just suck because they were reduced in range AND actually became same the bad in piercing things as a boltgun --> shuriken catapults are crap today, and IMO they are even worse than lasguns.


Shuricats are pretty good in and of themselves, IMO. I know some marine players who would trade in bolters for 'em easy, the ability to assault afterwards is too good to pass up for up close and personal style armies.

It's just the unit that it's mounted on that makes it kind of a contradiction. They're mounted on Gaurdian "Defenders," Even though the Shuricat is quite plainly on offensive weapon, and they have an offensive heavy weapon. Guardians are ok against marines, but IMO, the only thing deadlier than massed lasgun fire is massed shuriken fire. The real trick is pulling it off.

Granted, I miss the days when guardians were more flexible, and could actually have standoff with shuricats, but now they just carry Glorified shotguns. I mostly just use Storm guardians and Avengers.

Not that I intend to switch subjects or anything.

Now, back on topic. The fact that guardsmen can kill Space marines AT ALL with basic rifles amazes me. Imagine if a space marine appeared today next to a Marine Corps. Platoon! The m16 wouldn't be the main killer. It wouldn't even be close. Yeah it's a good gun, but it even has trouble dropping just regular people, let alone a space marine. No, it would be the .50's, mk19's, saws with ap rounds and 203's that would be doing most of the work... just like in any other firefight. The main purpose of of infantry small arms today is suppression and close in assaults. The killing is always mostly done by the crew serves (Even in urban environments).

As taught in the "Machine Gunnery" Handbook, the machine gun section of the USMC provides SEVENTY-PERCENT of a rifle companies firepower.

Not to mention the simple common sense of how unpleasant it is to be shot at by automatic crew serves.

I think lasguns are fine the way they are. Consider the gaurdsman. He's probably exhausted, scared, dehydrated and most likely confused to some lesser or greater extent. Hitting anything while receiving return fire is a challenge by itself, let alone the weak spot on a space marines armor.

Look at it that way and the lasgun seems just about right. I mean really, the whole point of lasguns is to augment the firepower of the special and heavy weapons, not the other way around.

The real question that should be asked is "Why are Machine Guns so weak in 40k?"

"Bolt shells move fast. Very fast. Certainly faster than an M16 for example."

I disagree Partisan Rimmo. The m16 fires very fast rounds (3000+ fps) which is very, very quick for small arms. Besides, bolters don't really rely on the penetration to cause damage, rather the explosion (at least from your description, which seems very well thought out). What you mean by "mass reactive" sounds exactly like Dual-purpose SMAW rounds. They either bury themselves in soft targets and then explode or explode on the surface, still causing considerable damage.


I also disagree about azimaith speaking madness. .50 cals are probably more devastating than a bolter. Maximum range of miles, accurate enough to snipe with (Longest confirmed sniper kill anyone?), fairly fast firing, and with AP rounds can destroy medium to light tanks. I'm not only impressed with the holes it makes, but also the fact that the round keeps on going and going and going, eventually going through entire buildings and beyond. The rounds move so fast that they would rip the flesh off of ones bones by simply flying close enough to someone.



Now, would I take a bolter over say, a 16? Heck yes I would (only problem would be ammo.... 600 bolt shells probably has some wieght to it hehe). But it's kind of daff to compare rifles to crew serves, IMO. It would be like comparing an old cannon and an m16.

A .50 cal is hard to beat, since not much really beats a machine gun that fires big rounds at muzzle velocities exceeding 3000 feet per second.

Slaaneshi Slave
05-01-2007, 23:20
The record for the longest sniper confirmed kill is was recently broken in Afgan by a Canadian sniper. Two days later another Canadian sniper broke it again. I have completely forgotten how far it was, but it was staggering (I knew Soldier magazine would be useful someday. :p)

Laughingmonk
05-01-2007, 23:32
Ah, just found that out myself. Good shot eh?

Slaaneshi Slave
05-01-2007, 23:34
Even more impressive is the Afgan sniper who is killing all our teams. He has something like 30 kills so far.

xibo
05-01-2007, 23:34
No matter how effective the weapon and how skilled the marksman is, due to weather conditions you can't use a bullet-based weapon effectively over more than say ... a mile. Remember wind speed and direction might be different in the bullets path, and there are also other difractions like raindrops and thermal lift, and even if those appear so ignoreable, those things regulary redirect bullets into void. Gravity is also a factor although a good marksman knows how to take care of that.

guillimansknight
05-01-2007, 23:42
No matter how effective the weapon and how skilled the marksman is, due to weather conditions you can't use a bullet-based weapon effectively over more than say ... a mile. Remember wind speed and direction might be different in the bullets path, and there are also other difractions like raindrops and thermal lift, and even if those appear so ignoreable, those things regulary redirect bullets into void. Gravity is also a factor although a good marksman knows how to take care of that.

sniping isnt getting a head in the aimer "cross" its about wind, weather, concealment and prediction to name a few

MrBigMr
05-01-2007, 23:50
Now, back on topic. The fact that guardsmen can kill Space marines AT ALL with basic rifles amazes me.
Hey, even an Abrams cracks under fire.


Imagine if a space marine appeared today next to a Marine Corps. Platoon! The m16 wouldn't be the main killer. It wouldn't even be close. Yeah it's a good gun, but it even has trouble dropping just regular people, let alone a space marine. No, it would be the .50's, mk19's, saws with ap rounds and 203's that would be doing most of the work... just like in any other firefight.
M249 SAW uses same ammo as M16, so if it can have ap ammo, M16 can too. I don't see there much difference against power armor. Besides, 5.56x45mm ammo is designed to wound soft targets (spin in target and tear tissue). 7.62x39mm tops it in penetration past 50m.


The main purpose of of infantry small arms today is suppression and close in assaults. The killing is always mostly done by the crew serves (Even in urban environments).
Right. I was a guerilla (and a medic) in the army and our rifles were mostly for suppression. Mines and rocket launchers were out primary weapons, but then again, vehicles were our primary targets.


As taught in the "Machine Gunnery" Handbook, the machine gun section of the USMC provides SEVENTY-PERCENT of a rifle companies firepower.
We didn't even have them, but then again, we had the launchers.


The real question that should be asked is "Why are Machine Guns so weak in 40k?"
Heavy Bolter weak? It's an effin' automatic rocket launcher. As for Heavy Stubbers, they're about the same as .50s.


I disagree Partisan Rimmo. The m16 fires very fast rounds (3000+ fps) which is very, very quick for small arms.
But bolts pick up speed all the time, while bullets lose it.


What you mean by "mass reactive" sounds exactly like Dual-purpose SMAW rounds. They either bury themselves in soft targets and then explode or explode on the surface, still causing considerable damage.
Right, delayed detonation. Impact, activate detonator, penetrate, detonate.


I also disagree about azimaith speaking madness. .50 cals are probably more devastating than a bolter. Maximum range of miles, accurate enough to snipe with (Longest confirmed sniper kill anyone?), fairly fast firing, and with AP rounds can destroy medium to light tanks. I'm not only impressed with the holes it makes, but also the fact that the round keeps on going and going and going, eventually going through entire buildings and beyond. The rounds move so fast that they would rip the flesh off of ones bones by simply flying close enough to someone.
12.7mm solid bullet better than 19mm explosive rocket? And when talking about range, WW1 rifles had enough power to hit a target up to a mile away, but troops couldn't realy hit anything past few hundred meters. That's why rifle bullets were scaled down for assault rifles and such.
It's hard to hit a man sized target from 150m away, even when having the time to aim. Add haste, incoming fire, etc. Now try doing it while moving. Far from easy. Possible, but not easy.

Slaaneshi Slave
05-01-2007, 23:55
How about Lasguns stay the same, and Guardsman can pay 2pts extra for Autoguns, which have the same stats as Lasguns, but cause Pinning?

MrBigMr
05-01-2007, 23:56
Even more impressive is the Afgan sniper who is killing all our teams. He has something like 30 kills so far.
Nothing can beat this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4) guy.
Over 500 kills with a Mosin-Nagant Model 28 and iron sights, plus well over 200 kills with a submachine gun.

xibo
05-01-2007, 23:56
How about Lasguns stay the same, and Guardsman can pay 2pts extra for Autoguns, which have the same stats as Lasguns, but cause Pinning? In the LD10 rerollable or fearless environment 40k has become that would be totally worthless.


sniping isnt getting a head in the aimer "cross" its about wind, weather, concealment and prediction to name a few
Yes, but the divertion caused by unknown/guessed factors is exponential to the distance you're shooting. If your victim is 100m away you can just aim on him and the bullet will hit 99&#37; of the times. If he's 1000m away the bullet will have accelerated 5m downwards and 1m sidewards at 5km/h wind speed. You can aim 5m over him and 1m aside, maybe also adding his movement to that, but you still don't know if there even is wind say 100m in front of you...
...damnit, i'm hijaking my own thread...

Laughingmonk
05-01-2007, 23:58
That's what the .50 cal so cool, and why its max effective range (In USMC terms that means half the people hit half the time) is 2200 meters. It's not about each individual bullet, but rather it's about getting a Cone of Fire onto the target. With a trained gunner, that's not hard to do, which is why i made the distinction between crew serves and automatics.

Gimme a can of 50 cal ammo and I can walk the rounds on to a man sized target at 2000 meters. With a spotter, of course.

1 round? Probably not. That's what makes the good Master Corporal's shot so good. BTW, it was 2430 SlaaneshiSlave :D

As far as the afghan sniper, that still doesn't hold a torch to Gunny Hathcock. (93 kills), who doesn't hold a torch to that other guy who slaughtered like a batalion.

Slaaneshi Slave
06-01-2007, 00:02
The thing with the Afgan sniper though, he only targets our snipers. Its not a job I would like in the best of times, even less if I knew there was somebody targeting you specifically who knows the land better than you. He even uses a rifle he took from an American sniper, according to the article.

guillimansknight
06-01-2007, 00:02
Yes, but the divertion caused by unknown/guessed factors is exponential to the distance you're shooting. If your victim is 100m away you can just aim on him and the bullet will hit 99&#37; of the times. If he's 1000m away the bullet will have accelerated 5m downwards and 1m sidewards at 5km/h wind speed. You can aim 5m over him and 1m aside, maybe also adding his movement to that, but you still don't know if there even is wind say 100m in front of you...
...damnit, i'm hijaking my own thread...

your good

"...damnit, i'm hijaking my own thread... " <- omg im on the floor laughing

also if your in combat sniping is a lot harder, (crack and thump) because a sniper (in the real world) is devasting sometimes morale, gunners, commanders ect can be picked off by a unseen enemy changing a battles course, a sniper is a top priority target, so hiding is in most cases a definate


The thing with the Afgan sniper though, he only targets our snipers. Its not a job I would like in the best of times, even less if I knew there was somebody targeting you specifically who knows the land better than you. He even uses a rifle he took from an American sniper, according to the article.

"to kill a sniper you need a better sniper"

that is somthing about snipers unless you get lucky or send a horde at him(not likely cough IG cough) that is the best way of killing him(unless you find out where he is and "tank crew FIRE")

MrBigMr
06-01-2007, 00:09
I could have qualified as a sniper back in the army. But the snipers we guerillas had, were more fire support than actual sniping. When we blow up convoys and stuff, the sniper would pick individual targets rather than just firing in the general direction of the enemy.
What also made the job crappy, was the fact that they had to carry both theyr assault rifle and the sniper rifle. And rarely they had the chanse to use the sniper rifle. Mostly they used their assault rifles like everyone else.

guillimansknight
06-01-2007, 00:11
I could have qualified as a sniper back in the army. But the snipers we guerillas had, were more fire support than actual sniping. When we blow up convoys and stuff, the sniper would pick individual targets rather than just firing in the general direction of the enemy.
What also made the job crappy, was the fact that they had to carry both theyr assault rifle and the sniper rifle. And rarely they had the chanse to use the sniper rifle. Mostly they used their assault rifles like everyone else.

man how old are all the guys on warseer???

cause im begining to think im the only one not old enough to get a proper job

also if your a yank(usa) id be scared if i had i fire support sniper after the iraq war (the yanks shot down more brit aircraft at the start than the iraqi army - no offence)

Slaaneshi Slave
06-01-2007, 00:13
"to kill a sniper you need a better sniper"

that is somthing about snipers unless you get lucky or send a horde at him(not likely cough IG cough) that is the best way of killing him(unless you find out where he is and "tank crew FIRE")

Nah, to kill a sniper you just need to know which state he is in. :D They don't call MRLSs Grid Square Removal Service for nothing. A bit excessive for a single guy though. :p


also if your a yank(usa) id be scared if i had i fire support sniper after the iraq war (the yanks shot down more brit aircraft at the start than the iraqi army - no offence)

Thats why the Americans go in first - We don't want them behind us. ;)

guillimansknight
06-01-2007, 00:16
Nah, to kill a sniper you just need to know which state he is in. :D They don't call MRLSs Grid Square Removal Service for nothing. A bit excessive for a single guy though. :p

ehh?

what are you on about (sorry that made no sense to me)

need to know which state he is in <--- WTH??

MRLSs Grid Square Removal Service <--- again??





Thats why the Americans go in first - We don't want them behind us. ;)

yeah most high tech army(well realy just richest) in the world and FF still happens

MrBigMr
06-01-2007, 00:17
man how old are all the guys on warseer???
cause im begining to think im the only one not old enough to get a proper job
Old enough to buy booze, too young to go on an early retire.


also if your a yank(usa) id be scared if i had i fire support sniper after the iraq war (the yanks shot down more brit aircraft at the start than the iraqi army - no offence)
Not a yankee doodle dandy. I don't think they have guerillas.

Slaaneshi Slave
06-01-2007, 00:18
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/mrls.jpg

Multi Launch Rocket System, an artillery piece. Launches 12 independent rockets at the target area, its nickname in the Royal Artillery is Grid Square Removal Service, but you can just call it "Sir" if you like.

EDIT: Think of it like a Space Marine whirlwind that actually does what its supposed to.

MrBigMr
06-01-2007, 00:19
need to know which state he is in <--- WTH??
MRLSs Grid Square Removal Service <--- again??
Artillery barrage. Point a grid from the map and order them to blast it to bits.

guillimansknight
06-01-2007, 00:22
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/mrls.jpg

Multi Launch Rocket System, an artillery piece. Launches 12 independent rockets at the target area, its nickname in the Royal Artillery is Grid Square Removal Service, but you can just call it "Sir" if you like.

EDIT: Think of it like a Space Marine whirlwind that actually does what its supposed to.

could have just said "a big gun"

but unless you know there is a sniper and are prepared to blow a big radius apart that aint gonna work

MrBigMr
06-01-2007, 00:23
For special forces artillery cover, there's the silenced version.
http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/EE/images/uploads/tanksilencer1.jpg
Yes, that's real. I read about it in some magazine. It's a german device for artillery training firing, so that the sound wouldn't bother civilians.

Diomedes
06-01-2007, 00:24
Good old Slaaneshi Slave, never uses a scapel when a sledgehammer will do the job! :D

Back on topic, I agree that the Lasgun is more of a suppression weapon than an out and out killer, its weakness is made up by the sheer amount of them on the field.

It can be frustrating when you loose off 30 shots and only say one or two models fall but when fighting marines, each marine that falls is much more devastating for the marine player than losing a guardsman is to you.

Slaaneshi Slave
06-01-2007, 00:24
In Afgan you always assume there is a sniper, or ambush, and you are always prepared to blow the **** out of anything and everything. If you aren't, you die.

EDIT: Diomedes. You sir, are sigged. :p

xibo
06-01-2007, 00:29
isn't the mlrs using satelite guidance? *hack hack, oups targeted the wrong coordinates?*

Slaaneshi Slave
06-01-2007, 00:29
For special forces artillery cover, there's the silenced version.
http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/EE/images/uploads/tanksilencer1.jpg
Yes, that's real. I read about it in some magazine. It's a german device for artillery training firing, so that the sound wouldn't bother civilians.

Do the Germans use AS90s? I thought they were just British.


isn't the mlrs using satelite guidance? *hack hack, oups targeted the wrong coordinates?*

Most of our stuff runs on Bowman now, which is our new multipurpose comms kit. You can do pretty much anything from radio to command and conquer style **** with it. Its also just about as secure as you can get.

guillimansknight
06-01-2007, 00:29
For special forces artillery cover, there's the silenced version.
http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/EE/images/uploads/tanksilencer1.jpg
Yes, that's real. I read about it in some magazine. It's a german device for artillery training firing, so that the sound wouldn't bother civilians.

pic aint working

anyway about killing a sniper with that

1 you'd need to get a aprox radius of where he was when he shot
2 you'd need a bigger radius staring at the edges of the first and going out by his speed x the time between the shot and the "sir" ( as slave says i should call it)shooting

THAT could turn into a big blast

lets see if i could walk 6 miles in 1 hour when i was 11 what could a trained adult do running??

the blast needed to make sure he'd die would wipe out an army

Slaaneshi Slave
06-01-2007, 00:37
If you landed a barrage of MRLS fire in the middle of an army, there wouldn't be much left. Nobody was actually serious about using one of those to take out a sniper. There is such a thing as going a little overboard, and in the army, that tends to land you in prison.

I do have quite a funny story about MRLSs though. I work with a Sgt in the RA who is MRLS trained. During training he had his first live fire from within the vehicle. The other guys in there with him wedged themselves in tiny corners, crammed their hands over their ear protecters and screamed at the top of their voices. He is sitting there thinking wtf are they doing? Just then the missiles launch and he is thrown across cabin, ends up with his feet in the air, both ears popped and ear ache for a week. :p The other two guys get up and say "Oh, did we forget to tell you about the 'recoil'?"

Buahahaha!

EDIT: Sgt = Sergeant, RA = Royal Artillery

xibo
06-01-2007, 00:41
lets see if i could walk 6 miles in 1 hour when i was 11 what could a trained adult do running??
you didn't have to keep unnoticed, did you?
either way, you don't need to care about that mrls, because 66% of the time it won't hit you and the other 33% of the time youre in a building and have a 4+ cover save and your cameoline +2 csm... :p

guillimansknight
06-01-2007, 00:41
If you landed a barrage of MRLS fire in the middle of an army, there wouldn't be much left. Nobody was actually serious about using one of those to take out a sniper. There is such a thing as going a little overboard, and in the army, that tends to land you in prison.

I do have quite a funny story about MRLSs though. I work with a Sgt in the RA who is MRLS trained. During training he had his first live fire from within the vehicle. The other guys in there with him wedged themselves in tiny corners, crammed their hands over their ear protecters and screamed at the top of their voices. He is sitting there thinking wtf are they doing? Just then the missiles launch and he is thrown across cabin, ends up with his feet in the air, both ears popped and ear ache for a week. :p The other two guys get up and say "Oh, did we forget to tell you about the 'recoil'?"

Buahahaha!

EDIT: Sgt = Sergeant, RA = Royal Artillery

wtf was sgt thinking

hhhmmmm............im in a tin box on tracks with a huge missle launcher on top there isnt going to be a loud bang or huge recoil no, it will be the same as sitting on my sofa


you didn't have to keep unnoticed, did you?
either way, you don't need to care about that mrls, because 66&#37; of the time it won't hit you and the other 33% of the time youre in a building and have a 4+ cover save and your cameoline +2 csm... :p

unnoticed ????


cover saves......................
hmm never thought of that

in a real battle

sorry your MRL's cant hurt me because im in a fortified building with a cameoline cloak and a + 1 to cover special rule

Slaaneshi Slave
06-01-2007, 00:43
This was way back when he was a crow.

guillimansknight
06-01-2007, 00:49
This was way back when he was a crow.

also thanks for telling that recoil story after id taken a swig

theres water all over my computer i look like iv wet myself and i chocked(spelling??)

Laughingmonk
06-01-2007, 00:53
--------------Hey, even an Abrams cracks under fire.----------------------
Of course it does. However, it's alot easier to hit an Abrams than it is a running/concealed man.


---------------------M249 SAW uses same ammo as M16, so if it can have ap ammo, M16 can too. I don't see there much difference against power armor. Besides, 5.56x45mm ammo is designed to wound soft targets (spin in target and tear tissue). 7.62x39mm tops it in penetration past 50m.--------

But the SAW also has the advantage of being a light machine gun, and can fire far, far faster than a 16. But then again, you know this. More rounds= better chance to hit the vitals on a space marine. Besides, marines (generally) don't use ak-47's (well, sometimes we do :p ) I was merely stating weapons organic to most rifle companies.

Whether this would work or not, is open to debate. I have never trained to fight against or have actually fought a Space Marine (and I really hope it stays this way :p ). The point was is that the main killers in Firefights are the automatics.


-------------Heavy Bolter weak? It's an effin' automatic rocket launcher. As for Heavy Stubbers, they're about the same as .50s.--------------------


I meant in game terms. My bad, I should've clarified.

Heavy bolters ARE mean. But in game terms they can kill a couple geq's a turn, even when they're in the open.
Or take the shuriken cannon. In fluff terms it has a firing rate akin to a minigun, but it apparently only equals a heavy with enhanced str and reduced ap.

As far as heavy stubbers being .50's that's a little far fetched. You're tellin me a .50 cal is ap6, and can't even bust through flak/mesh armour?


---------12.7mm solid bullet better than 19mm explosive rocket? And when talking about range, WW1 rifles had enough power to hit a target up to a mile away, but troops couldn't realy hit anything past few hundred meters. That's why rifle bullets were scaled down for assault rifles and such.
It's hard to hit a man sized target from 150m away, even when having the time to aim. Add haste, incoming fire, etc. Now try doing it while moving. Far from easy. Possible, but not easy.-------

1.) That was the point. Comparing crew serves to small arms was daff. Crew serves have abundant ammo with high rates of accurate fire. They will almost always be superior to rifles/carbines. I was commenting at how comparing .50's and bolters is kind of silly. Besides, it's the explosive part that makes solid bullets still viable. that's why we always mix .50's with mk19's

2.) yes, it's harder to hit with small arms than most people realize. We both know this, that's why I was amazed at how guardsmen can kill space marines.

Get what I mean, yall?

As of now, I'm gonna stop jackin this thread, and start a new one.

Slaaneshi Slave
06-01-2007, 00:57
Is the SAW equivilent to our GPMG (Gen Purpose Machine Gun) or LSR (Light Sup Weapon - modified assault rifle with bipod, longer barrel etc)?

Slaaneshi Slave
06-01-2007, 01:02
As far as heavy stubbers being .50's that's a little far fetched. You're tellin me a .50 cal is ap6, and can't even bust through flak/mesh armour?

Heavy Stubbers and Auto Guns are a bit strange in 40k. In the rules there is only 1 stat line for them, but in the fluff a Heavy Stubber can be almost anything. A heavy stubber IS a GPMG, since it is simply machine gun which fires solid rounds. A stubber in the 40k universe fires solid rounds using a mechanical firing mechanism. A autogun fires solid / explosive / AT / etc rounds with an electronic feed. There are little motors which feed the next round in, as opposed to springs or gravity, like stubbers use.

guillimansknight
06-01-2007, 01:05
Heavy Stubbers and Auto Guns are a bit strange in 40k. In the rules there is only 1 stat line for them, but in the fluff a Heavy Stubber can be almost anything. A heavy stubber IS a GPMG, since it is simply machine gun which fires solid rounds. A stubber in the 40k universe fires solid rounds using a mechanical firing mechanism. A autogun fires solid / explosive / AT / etc rounds with an electronic feed. There are little motors which feed the next round in, as opposed to springs or gravity, like stubbers use.

There are little motors which feed the next round in, as opposed to springs or gravity, like stubbers use

i wonder what would happen if a anti-grav vechial flew over a heavy stubber?????? would no more rounds get fed in??

Slaaneshi Slave
06-01-2007, 01:07
Magazine fed = springs
Belt fed = gravity...

guillimansknight
06-01-2007, 01:09
Magazine fed = springs
Belt fed = gravity...

it was just a joke

anyone know how a gun feed would work under water ?? without a feeding motor

Slaaneshi Slave
06-01-2007, 01:13
Some work, some don't. You'd get a lot more blockages though, as the firing mechanism is still trying to move at its normal speed, since there would be not a great deal of water in your moving parts, but your chamber would be flooded, meaning the rounds are being fed very slowly.

guillimansknight
06-01-2007, 01:16
Some work, some don't. You'd get a lot more blockages though, as the firing mechanism is still trying to move at its normal speed, since there would be not a great deal of water in your moving parts, but your chamber would be flooded, meaning the rounds are being fed very slowly.

hhmmmm ........ wonder how a gravity exploiting(aka uses gravity to feed rounds) feed would work under water because of upthrust...............................

well thats me its 17 past 1 in the morning here and im logging of to go do sit ups

Laughingmonk
06-01-2007, 01:17
-----------------------Nah, to kill a sniper you just need to know which state he is in. :D They don't call MRLSs Grid Square Removal Service for nothing. A bit excessive for a single guy though. :p

Thats why the Americans go in first - We don't want them behind us. --------


Of course, the US Army loves their "Thunder Runs" don't they :p .

I don't think that's excessive :evilgrin:

If a rifle won't do the job, use a SAW, failing that, a 240, failing that etc. etc.

Now, we couldn't use the MGRLS in an urban environment, but we have used tank cannons and JDAMS....

Slaaneshi Slave
06-01-2007, 01:17
A belt fed weapon wouldn't work underwater, I'm pretty sure.

Catferret
06-01-2007, 01:17
I've gotta jump in here and say this thread is both amusing and highly informative. I think I last posted on page 3 when the Bolter/Lasgun debate was still going.

Keep it up guys, this is genius! Your goal is to be back on topic by page 20.;)