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Servo11
03-01-2007, 20:55
GW tends to derive names from history and/or mythology. Where did they get the names of the four principle Chaos Gods?

Here is Nurgle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nergal

Mephistofeles
03-01-2007, 21:16
Well...I don't think Nergal and Nurgle is that similar, but yeah, why not...

I think they at least have gotten a lot of inspiration from H.P. Lovecraft, all the names sound like entities from his universe, and the daemons too...

Tiluca
03-01-2007, 22:31
I might be on something, but i thought i remember reading that the Chaos gods are one of the FEW things that has little if none at all direct inspiration from anything. However i do see SLIGHT similarities to H.P. Lovecraft's works and his mythos, but not all that much.

Weregerbil
03-01-2007, 23:57
Well Khorne comes from their love of breakfast.

Dspankdo
04-01-2007, 00:29
Nergal is the god of pestilence so I'm pretty sure thats where GW got the inspiration for Nurgle from.

Move Fast Hit Low
04-01-2007, 00:44
i thought i read somewhere that GW stole a bunch of their backstory from some author

pox
04-01-2007, 00:45
tzeentch is a sumarian god, IIRC.

Paulus
04-01-2007, 07:26
Slaneesh seems a little Hellraiser like, but knowing GW it's probably more inspired by something obscure.

snurl
04-01-2007, 07:29
Quote weregerbil: Khorne comes from their love of breakfast

* In the heart of every warrior of Khorne
There's a Chaos Warrior waiting to be Born? *

Briohmar
04-01-2007, 09:24
Much of the imagery associated with the four comes from Michael Moorcock. The most popular image of Nurgle, and infact the basis for GUO and Nurglings comes from an image of Arioch in the Prince Corum books. The skull throne is also an image from Moorcock. And I bet if I went back and re-read the Elric and Corum Sagas I'd remember where the other images came from. Incidently, High Elves, as we know them today take much of their mythology directly from Melnibonea. It is the Dragon Isle; The People became cruel and jaded, giving themselves over to art, sex and drugs (ala Ulthuan before the split); they are a dying race; greatest sea power; Melnibonean Battle Barges are identical in description to the Dark Elf Reaver Ships. I could go on if you'd like.

Paulus
04-01-2007, 10:07
I think your right, I've never read the books but did a quick Wiki search & found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_and_Chaos

Look at the symbol of Chaos!!

Mephistofeles
04-01-2007, 10:59
Well, that is the "true" symbol of Chaos in many religions, IIRC it's a Hindu or Bhuddistic symbol to start with, a form of degeneration of the eightspokered wheel.

Briohmar
04-01-2007, 12:20
Intellectual property ruling aside, there's very little that is original in either Warhammer or 40K. Even the majority of the models are rip-offs from other sources (Cadians and Mobile Infantry from Starship Troopers) Tyranids and Bugs from Starship Troopers, Chaos as a Power from Moorcock and DandD, It just goes on and on, but its still a cool game.

Paulus
04-01-2007, 12:30
Very true, all of GW's armies tend to have elements taken from history, religion, mythology, literatre & film but on the whole it's done to good effect & adds to the games.

I've thought of the 4 chaos powers as a kind of play on the 4 horsemen of the apocolypse (not in powers as only Nurgle & Khorne would match).

Glorfindel
04-01-2007, 16:10
I think that was indeed their plan. Anyway almost all stories and background have ties to reality, after all we can only imagine compositions of what we know, we cannot create something that has absolutely no ties to reality :)

something else related to Persian gods btw:

Angra Mainyu (Ahriman), is the Evil Spirit, who is constantly attempting to destroy the world of truth and to harm men and beasts. Thus life in this world is a reflection of the cosmic struggle between Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu. => http://www.art-arena.com/godspersia.htm#top

Ahriman is a 40k sorcerer though.

Servo11
04-01-2007, 17:54
The inspiration for the gods themselves (powers, influence, etc.) seem basic.

So do the NAMES have an origin?

Falkman
04-01-2007, 23:34
(Cadians and Mobile Infantry from Starship Troopers) Tyranids and Bugs from Starship Troopers
You gotta be joking?
Cadians look like regular soldiers with some high tech equipment, nothing particularly SST over them.
And the Tyranids look more like Aliens than Arachnids.
The concept of alien bugs is not unusual, and exist in most sci-fi universes, so to say that they are ripped off from SST (which is a relatively new movie, the Tyranids are way older) is just silly.

Paulus
04-01-2007, 23:46
You gotta be joking?
Cadians look like regular soldiers with some high tech equipment, nothing particularly SST over them.
And the Tyranids look more like Aliens than Arachnids.
The concept of alien bugs is not unusual, and exist in most sci-fi universes, so to say that they are ripped off from SST (which is a relatively new movie, the Tyranids are way older) is just silly.

Starship Troopers was a book long before ot became a film & GW designers have said that it was the inspiration behind Tyranids & some Imperial Guard

Falkman
04-01-2007, 23:52
I know it was (still is, actually) a book, but Briohmar's post seemed to point at the movie (light infantry) and the looks of the soldiers/creatures therein.

The concept of alien bugs might be somewhat borrowed from Heinlein's book, but it's hardly a rip-off of his stuff, there are quite some differences between Arachnids and Tyranids.
And if you look at older Tyranid models, you'll see that they are more than just "influenced" by Aliens, they are practically copies, so Heinlein is far from the only one to have inspired the Tyranids.

Paulus
05-01-2007, 00:03
I'm aware it is still a book thank you for pointing out my grammatical errors :p

I don't think Briohmar was suggesting that the inspiration for Tyranid's came solely from Starship Troopers but merely pointing it out as an example of where GW have borrowed from other sources.

Falkman
05-01-2007, 00:05
His way of putting it as if the models were ripoffs from SST made me think otherwise, but let's not discuss that any further, there is a real topic at hand here :p

Briohmar
05-01-2007, 04:13
I'm aware it is still a book thank you for pointing out my grammatical errors :p

I don't think Briohmar was suggesting that the inspiration for Tyranid's came solely from Starship Troopers but merely pointing it out as an example of where GW have borrowed from other sources.

Thank you, that is in fact what I was doing. Incidently, GW openly admitted that SST (from the book) bugs were the inspiration for the nids. The Cadians were released long after the movie, and were clearly influenced by the MI in the movie as well. Actually, Assault SMs are a better representation of MI as they are explained in the book.

Quote from Falkman: "And if you look at older Tyranid models, you'll see that they are more than just "influenced" by Aliens, they are practically copies, so Heinlein is far from the only one to have inspired the Tyranids."

Which validates my original point that GW does very little that is original. As to the original topic, we already have the origins for two of the four, anyone have an idea on the origin of the names Slaanesh and Khorne? Slaanesh sounds a bit as if it were of Hindu origin, but I have no proof to back it up.

Falkman
05-01-2007, 09:10
As I said Briohmar, the Tyranids were alive and kicking in 40k long before the SST movie was produced, so I fail to see how they can be a rip-off of said movie.
Yes, they might have been part of the inspiration for some of the later models, but to claim that they are a rip-off is just plain stupidity.
The Cadians have also existed in the game for far longer than the SST movie, and got their look way before the movie too, even though it was updated with the latest IG codex, they still were in action long before it.
And I fail to see the blinding likeness to the Light infantry to be honest, both the Cadians and the Light infantry in SST look like generic soldiers, nothing too special about them.

And as you say, much of what GW does is not original per se, as is not many other fictional things, but it is the way GW combines influences from many popcultural phenomena (sp?) and sprinkle it with their own lore, that makes their universes so compelling.
They are familiar, yet very different, from our own world.

mistformsquirrel
05-01-2007, 09:52
First thing that I'm noticing:

People have apparently forgotten what Mobile Infantry are supposed to look like! That damnable movie...

Mobile Infantry are, for all intents and purposes, battlesuits. Imagine Terminators with Jump Packs and you get 'close' - though not quite. Remember, those things fired *nuclear shoulder rockets* >.< NUCLEAR MISSILES!! >.>

<._.>; just making mention.

Falkman
05-01-2007, 09:54
If you read our posts you'll notice that we are talking about LIGHT infantry, not MOBILE.

I know perfectly well that Mobile infantry uses battle suits, but those in the movie never claim to be the battle suit-riding mobile infantry, they're the light infantry, made up of volunteering civilians.

Varath- Lord Impaler
05-01-2007, 10:31
Jeez sometimes people assume too much. The most tenuous links means GW 'stole' it.

Of course they have taken things from history and other books. But really, how are you going to tell one universes Light Infantry's from the others?

Its like Flak armour and fatigues have been copywrited...

The chaos gods (i think you really need to read all 4 liber Chaoticas to get a full grip of what the gods represent) seem very original and ive never seen anything like them.

Kharneth
Nurgleth
Tzeeneth
Slaaneth

The 4 gods of chaos, 4 points of a compass, 4 horsemen of the apocalypse. whatever you want. Anything in GW's games may be 'stolen' but it has advanced beyond that now and is something else in its own right.

Briohmar
05-01-2007, 12:25
First thing that I'm noticing:

People have apparently forgotten what Mobile Infantry are supposed to look like! That damnable movie...

Mobile Infantry are, for all intents and purposes, battlesuits. Imagine Terminators with Jump Packs and you get 'close' - though not quite. Remember, those things fired *nuclear shoulder rockets* >.< NUCLEAR MISSILES!! >.>

<._.>; just making mention.

Actually I did mention Assault marines with jump packs being closer to MI.

To Falkland I was citing known and established points such as nids originating from the Book Starship Troopers which GW themselves admitted a long time ago, to illustrate my point that Most of their ideas are stolen. They have done some original things, but not too many. Can we please now get on with the discussion of the origins of the Chaos gods.

Oh, and here's a quote from wikipedia that you might like: "The Cadians fighting in the 13th Black Crusade were developed to be a generic force representing any modern or science fiction armed force. In previous (Second and Third) editions, the Cadian Shock Troopers were heavily styled on the United States Army as well as the Mobile Infantry from the 1997 movie Starship Troopers and the United States Colonial Marines from the 1986 movie Aliens."

mistformsquirrel
05-01-2007, 13:29
If you read our posts you'll notice that we are talking about LIGHT infantry, not MOBILE.

I know perfectly well that Mobile infantry uses battle suits, but those in the movie never claim to be the battle suit-riding mobile infantry, they're the light infantry, made up of volunteering civilians.

I don't recall the book mentioning light infantry at all - though to be honest I've read many things since then.

The ones in the movie are simply "Mobile Infantry" - there not even being a rumor of the battlesuited variety - not even a hint.

Of course my issue with the movie, far in excess of anything, is just the portrayal of the governmental system and whatnot. The book itself is much kinder to the Terrans; but the movie portrayed them as practically fascists.

Seriously though - I really, honestly do not recall one word of a light infantry force in the book (not to say one couldn't logically exist - merely that it wasn't mentioned to my rememberance; possible I forgot though)

>.>; course why exactly I'm debating this in the fantasy forum... yeah I admit this is kinda weird. <-- was just lurking by >.>;

mistformsquirrel
05-01-2007, 13:34
Jeez sometimes people assume too much. The most tenuous links means GW 'stole' it.

Of course they have taken things from history and other books. But really, how are you going to tell one universes Light Infantry's from the others?

Its like Flak armour and fatigues have been copywrited...

The chaos gods (i think you really need to read all 4 liber Chaoticas to get a full grip of what the gods represent) seem very original and ive never seen anything like them.

Kharneth
Nurgleth
Tzeeneth
Slaaneth

The 4 gods of chaos, 4 points of a compass, 4 horsemen of the apocalypse. whatever you want. Anything in GW's games may be 'stolen' but it has advanced beyond that now and is something else in its own right.

I think a key thing GW does - is that they draw heavily on something for inspiration - but mutate it beyond easy identification. I would say "Innovators instead of inventors" basically. I wouldn't be surprised if, for example, the Nergal Wikipedia entry really was the original inspiration for Nurgle.

Likewise - the two only hold the barest of resemblances (not physically of course, but just power-wise; ie: they both control pestilence and decay).

Likely there are other things similarly appropriated from ancient religions and suitably modified. I think "borrowed" is a better term than stolen though. Stolen implies a degree of malice or greed - I tend to think of it as more homage than anything.

<. .> That's just my logic anyway.

Siam-Tiger
05-01-2007, 14:33
Didnīt we had this enormous thread were all the names and their origins have been explained with sources and all?

Falkman
05-01-2007, 14:35
To Falkland I was citing known and established points such as nids originating from the Book Starship Troopers which GW themselves admitted a long time ago, to illustrate my point that Most of their ideas are stolen. They have done some original things, but not too many. Can we please now get on with the discussion of the origins of the Chaos gods.
It's Falkman ;)
Again, I don't think SST would be the only source of the 'nids, which is evident in their design for example.
They are probably as influenced (notice the word influenced instead of stolen) by Aliens as they might be by SST, SST is not their only source of inspiration, as you seem to think.
Your use of the word steal really irritates me.
GW has not "stolen" anything, they merely get inspiration from other popcultural things, but then develop them into their own stuff.



Oh, and here's a quote from wikipedia that you might like: "The Cadians fighting in the 13th Black Crusade were developed to be a generic force representing any modern or science fiction armed force. In previous (Second and Third) editions, the Cadian Shock Troopers were heavily styled on the United States Army as well as the Mobile Infantry from the 1997 movie Starship Troopers and the United States Colonial Marines from the 1986 movie Aliens."
Second edition Cadians were released before the movie SST, so would have nothing to do with it.
I don't claim that they are not inspired by SST, they might very well be, but that would not be their only source of inspiration, as you seem to think.
The design of the Light infantry is hardly original anyway, they look just like modern soldiers with some high tech gadgets, as I said earlier, so it's hardly a very unique look to begin with.
In that case I think, as the wikipedia article says, that the Colonial marines from Aliens played a bigger part in influence.



I don't recall the book mentioning light infantry at all - though to be honest I've read many things since then.

The ones in the movie are simply "Mobile Infantry" - there not even being a rumor of the battlesuited variety - not even a hint.
You are correct, there is no Light infantry in the book, and there is no suits in the movie, just see them as showing two different sides of the same universe, battle suits does not exclude a citizen army, and vice versa.
Look at the movie as a continuation/extension to the universe Heinlein created, because it did not try to copy the book, it made something different but used the same core theme as the book.

Servo11
05-01-2007, 18:33
I am not accusing them of stealing anything. I find it interesting to see the parallels GW draws between their own characters/planets and those from other sources: Horus, Ahriman, Jaghaiti Khan, Baal, Azrael. Its all very interesting.

With the Chaos gods it is even more interesting, because you could argue that these gods have always existed. Nurgle is too close to Nergal to be a coincidence, maybe GW is saying the god worshipped in Babylonia is the same one from WHF and WH40K.

If it is POSSIBLE, maybe the names of the other three have origins we have not figured out yet.

squiggoth
05-01-2007, 22:26
Didn&#180;t we had this enormous thread were all the names and their origins have been explained with sources and all?

Yup. ;)

If I remember correctly, I suggested over there that Slaanesh' name and design were loosely based around Gaanesh and other Hindu gods and iconography (multi-limbed and polychrome), but people thought it was a silly idea. :p