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View Full Version : Scholam Progenium, or how many children do martyrs have?



worldshatterer
12-07-2005, 22:26
The scholam progenium are the schools in which the children of those who die in imperial service are educated .

As far as i can work out from the fluff these schools provide all commisars, storm troopers, soritas's, and arbites . This started out as a good idea to give stormtroopers a bit of identity in second ed, but these days becoming a member of a good portion of the forces of humanity seems to be dependent on ones parents being martyred!

Am i missing something? Is the fluff putting stress on the suspension of disbelief once more . Is the Scholam Progenium open to Imperial families who merely want their children to serve with unswerving loyalty, and all that one families death ensures is a guaranteed scholarship???Or is having cadavers in ones imediate family an absolute entry requirement?

TenTailedCat
12-07-2005, 22:47
I'd imagine there are more than enough orphans of high or middling status families to man the listed combat arms, also I thought the Sororitas were 'wayward daughters' sent to the Ministorum convents, in a nod to the same practice of sending daughters to become nuns in the middle ages.

Xisor
12-07-2005, 23:35
Also children of operatives on active service too isn't it? Naval Officers would send children to the Schola Progenium IIRC from Execution Hour and Shadowpoint.

Xisor

Minister
12-07-2005, 23:39
Naval officers are members of the Adeptus, whereas Guard (field, i.e. regimental rather than true Munitorium) officers are usually not. Besides that, think of all those scribes on Terra, and the number of them who will have a trafic accident, food poisoning, execution for uncovering something someone wants to keep hidden, accidents with badly-maintained equippment, victims of crime... whatever. It's not just the military which contributes, nor is it just those who die by the hand of the foe. The Scholasta is a perk of the job of Adeptus, whatever happens to you the Emperor will look after your soul and the Imperium will look after your children.

schoon
13-07-2005, 00:25
In a place as large as the Imperium, it's certainly not beyond the realm of believability that there might be a large number of orphans - particularly with the amount of conflict with its enemies :skull:

Has it ever been stated in the fluff if there is more than one location for the Schola (which personally I would think likely)?

Minister
13-07-2005, 01:08
It has. There is at least one within each Dicoesse, each of which I would think would roughly coencide with an Imperial sector. Thusly, about ten thousand or so of them.

orangesm
13-07-2005, 01:43
Thre are probably millions of Orphans, but remember not everywhere in the Imperium is at war, some places are 'happily' supplying food for hive cities which provide the latest in entertainment for a Pictbox on some asteriod where a metal is mined and sent to another hiveworld that produces farm equipment for the many agriworlds in the sector! Now some lowly Imperial Administrator on said asteriod had a family on Hive world A, his children get to attend the Scholam Progenium with the possiblity of becoming great Imperial Feild Marshalls or Fleet Admirals or Sisters Superiors or maybe even a feared/rumored Inquistor!

Brusilov
13-07-2005, 06:32
Indeed, IIRC not all children in the Schola are orphans, this only applies, as far as I'm aware for Commissars. The Schola Progenium is the place where all adepts of the Imperium are trained it would seem. It seems to be the main network for secondary education, but not for superior education (there are naval academies, general staff colleges...)

Inquis. Jaeger
13-07-2005, 11:01
Isn't it the central education institution for the children of any Imperial representative? ie. anyone who is a member of the Imperial (as opposed to local world) organisation - be they Guard, Navy, Terra, Ministorum, Arbites etc

Sai-Lauren
13-07-2005, 13:52
Indeed, IIRC not all children in the Schola are orphans, this only applies, as far as I'm aware for Commissars. The Schola Progenium is the place where all adepts of the Imperium are trained it would seem. It seems to be the main network for secondary education, but not for superior education (there are naval academies, general staff colleges...)

I agree, the pupils would come from any sources, like the nobility or the very rich, either those families with a sense of duty sending their children, or those simply trying to hide them from local rivalries, or thse fulfilling propaganda-like obligations (the imperial news service covering the entrance to the SP of the 1st son of one of the high lords of terra's cousins); from less advanced worlds, with the view to them coming home to "civilise" the world in the same way that guard regiments are tithed and the survivors sent home later; from ancient family ties and traditions (all nth born females of a family go to the sororitas, all nth born males go to the stormtroopers or the commissarat); scholarships on some worlds, as a reward for service to the imperium on others (either the childs own actions, or the parents) and so on.

GavT
13-07-2005, 13:59
There are many thousands of Schola Progenium abbeys, which are a suborganisation of the Ministorum. The children taken there are not necessarily orphaned, as pointed out, simply the offsrping of Imperial servants that can no longer be their parents as mentioned, this includes military officers, adepts in most organisations (think of the Departmento Munitorum flunkies who get shipped off with the Guard, leaving their families behind, or translators and tithe-graders sent to a world to replace lost personnel, etc etc).

Bear in mind that being an Ecclesiarchy institution, the purpose of the Schola Progenium is to inculcate the Imperial Creed into the children it teaches, and thus bring them up on a diet of worship and loyalty (and no doubt emphasising the sacrifice their parents made for the Imperium and that they will be expected to make). A lot of the other stuff combat training for example would be provided after the Progeny has been selected for their suitability and removed from the Schola by another organisation.

GAV

Briareos
13-07-2005, 15:20
The interesting bit here is "when imperial servants can no longer be their parents"...

A familly consists of _at least_ one husband and a wife, not to mention the aunts and uncles probably dotting the family tree. Since when has the Imperium begun to take a stand against single parents ?

While a nice concept (as far as iron-fisted-regime-run schools go), I think the idea of the Schola Progenium suffers from the lack of information on the Imperium's education programs. Surely all citizens of the Imperium are taught to love the Emperor ? So what makes the Progenia different from the other Imperium run schools, except perhaps that it caters to a more elite population than the standard grunt familly ?

Karhedron
13-07-2005, 15:43
Surely all citizens of the Imperium are taught to love the Emperor ? So what makes the Progenia different from the other Imperium run schools, except perhaps that it caters to a more elite population than the standard grunt familly ?
Remember that the Imperium does not usually interfere with day-to-day running on a planetary level unless things start to go wrong. The majority of a planet's children will probably be educated by local schools run by the Planetary govenor (of his flunkies or whatever form of local government the planet has). I do not think that the Imperium organises schooling on the majority of planets. They will just check that children are being taught the right creeds and propoganda and let them get on with it.

On an Imperial planet there will probably only be a small percentage of the population that are directly Imperial servants. These may be members of the Ecclesiarchy, Arbites or one of the many other Adeptus. Citizens will send their children to local schools while Servants get to send their children to the SP.

Briareos
13-07-2005, 15:52
The Ecclesiarchy is omnipresent in the Imperium (pretty much in the same way the AdMech is present everywhere where industries exists). The imperial cult is pretty much what ties the Imperium together, through the worship of the Emperor.

While the day-to-day administration of planets or systems may be left to the local governor, the running of the cult (and the cult's sub-structures of which the Progenium is part) doesn't strike me as being independant from the core Ecclesiarchy hierarchy.

But the part about local systems being independant of the Imperium is interesting because it pretty much reduces the Imperium to Terra and the solar system, the rest of human space being a protectorate. This implies a depth of political and social complexity which is very often lacking in the 40.000 fluff.

Falkus
13-07-2005, 16:22
But the part about local systems being independant of the Imperium is interesting because it pretty much reduces the Imperium to Terra and the solar system, the rest of human space being a protectorate

A confederacy is really the only reasonable way of running a galactic empire.

orangesm
13-07-2005, 18:25
Confederacy or Federation. The Imperium's overall concern is that of maintaining interplanetary commerce and communications, protecting its members from and prosecuting war against outside parties (be these non-member human worlds, xenos empires, pirates, traitors, heretics, xenos invasions, etc), the exploration and expansion of its 'territory' and maintaining its holdings. Since the Imperium is a Theocratic Federation, another duty is the religous education of its citizens.

To fulfill these needs the Imperium requires trained individuals. I see the Schola being broken up into mutliple levels. Individuals like Commissars begin there education at a much younger age because they are orphaned, given to the Imperium, etc - these individuals would attend primary school (so to the age of about 12) at the Schola, surrounded by a much larger body of secondary school students.

The secondary school students are drawn from multiple sources described earlier: lottery to buying their spot, it varys from world to world, who probably have to meet a certain requirement, part of the tithe. It is a prep school for all kinds of higher education, be it Guard Staff Officer, Navy Officer, Munitorum Quartermaster, Guard Stormtrooper Officer, Key World Administrator Staff, Merchant Ship Officer, Sub-Sector Administrator Staff, Sector Administrator Staff, etc.

Briareos
13-07-2005, 18:56
the problem here is that a federation or confederacy is generally composed of several members more or less equal in power, all working for the common welfare of the whole. This is how the Tau empire, with its concept of "Greater Good" is described. But it is not the case with the Imperium.

The Imperium is a dictatorship with a strong theocratic flavor.

Brusilov
13-07-2005, 19:17
The Imperium is just that, an Empire, that is a system where the centre holds together the whole through representatives and clients. It is the exchange of military protection against the right to self-rule, within certain constraints set by the centre.
A federation or a confederation would require some sort of representation of the component entities at the level of the central power, which is not the case in the Imperium (unless you believe, like Kage did, that the Senatorum Imperialis is very much aking to the Roman Senate, while the High Lords form a smaller structure called the Concilium Imperatos).

On the matter of the Schola Progenium, it does not say anywhere that the Ecclesiarchy has to provide everyone with education, even if they provide them with spiritual guidance. Just look at the Catholic Church, it provided the aforementioned spiritual guidance to all, but education only to a few, thanks to the Jesuits.
IMHO the Schola is just that, an organisation akin to the Company of Jesus. Both the Jesuits and the Schola seem to have a semi-military organisation (Drill-Abbots, and the Jesuits were formed to combat the Reform, they were called the footsoldiers of Jesus). Jesuits provided superior education to nobles and royalty, ever extending their influence and their teachings (it did not matter to teach the peasant in an age when the religion of the Prince was by law the religion of the population).

Minister
14-07-2005, 11:27
I would object to the idea that not all of the Scholasta initiates are orphans, as this is repeatedly stated in every source for the institution. What is not the case is that every Storm Trooper, Commissar, Sister and Naval officer is from these institutions. From all indications (I reference various novels and a nice little short from White Dwarf when BFG was new in an article about fleet fformations), members of the various institutions to which former Progenia are allocated recieve further training from the institution in question, making them the equivelant of primary, and possibly, secondary schools rather than a full education.

By the way:

SCHOLA PROGENIUM
The Schola Progenium is responsible for the care and education of orphans of Imperial servants. From the favoured sons of an Imperial Guard colonel to the children of a scribe posted to a distant world, the Schola Progenium cares for them all. Each diocese contains a number of Schola Progenium habitats where the orphans are gathered together. Headed by an Abbot, the Preachers of the habitat educate the young in a variety of studies, including religious education.
By the time a Progena reaches early adolescence they will have displayed skills in a certain direction and their tutelage to the age of sixteen will focus on these talents and hone the pupil to a career in one of the Imperial organisations. Most of the Progena will end up in the Adeptus Terra as scribes, clerks or overseers. However, a few will be assigned to higher positions. Male Progena may become Commissars in the Imperial Guard, petty officers in the Imperial Navy or enter the priesthood itself and become a Preacher or Dean (a subordinate lo a Deacon). Female Progena may well be entered into the Adepta Sororitas. Progena of both sexes may be recruited into the Inquisition or even the Officio Assassinorum. It is a great honour to pass through the Schola Progenium and those who do are well aware of their privilege.
The lifestyle of the teachers and pupils is strict and puritan. During the Age of Apostasy, most of the Schola Progenium was corrupted and rife with slavery and depravity. Orphans were used as slave labour in factories and mines making goods for the Ecclesiarchy. Particularly promising individuals were sold to Imperial commanders as slaves and servants, and the most attractive became concubines for Imperial Nobles. The most physically adept were sent to be trained, as Frateris Templars or Brides of the Emperor, swelling Vandire's armies with the best recruits. The habitats themselves became associated with licentious practices, and their money was put to questionable ends. In direct contrast, each habitat now maintains a strict separation between the two genders and contact between them is restricted purely to religious ceremonies. Only with this purity can the Progena hope lo be elevated to a position within the Emperor's domain.

Xisor
14-07-2005, 12:33
Perhaps by attending the Schola one is orhpaned? In this manner, regardless of living or dead parents, they are removed from the picture of that childs life...

Xisor

Briareos
14-07-2005, 12:42
I would object to the idea that not all of the Scholasta initiates are orphans, as this is repeatedly stated in every source for the institution.
It is also repeatedly stated that bolt weapons ammo are overblown water baloons...

TenTailedCat
14-07-2005, 12:44
Ugh, when Minister says something you'd better believe it - he's pretty clued in on these matters.

Briareos
14-07-2005, 12:51
Read my post : I do not deny that some things are repeatedly stated in the written background, just that the background is full of holes on several core elements (weaponry being one example amongst many).

[The core of bolt weapons ammo is made up of depleted deuterium (heavy water) = depleted H3O isotope = H2O (water)]

Brusilov
14-07-2005, 15:07
I would agree with Xisor, I would not put it past the Imperium to take away the children of Adepts (low ranking) and send them off to the Schola Progenium.

Oh and btw Minister, I don't have exact references on hand, but I seem to remember that Imperial Navy officers (like Flag Captain and such not petty officers) were also said to have trained in the Schola before going to the Naval Academy.

archangels uk
15-07-2005, 16:16
COMMISSAR TRAINING SQUADS (White Dwarf 115)

The Schola Progenium teach and train orphans of Imperial Officials until they are ready to become Cadet Commissars. As such, their training continues on the galaxy's battlegrounds where they are formed into special squads. Fighting alongside Imperial Guard units, they are completely devoted servants of the Emperor whose loyalty and bravery know no bounds.



http://www.criticalhit.co.uk/w40krp/WD115_Commissar_Training_Squads.shtml

Minister
16-07-2005, 13:03
Oh and btw Minister, I don't have exact references on hand, but I seem to remember that Imperial Navy officers (like Flag Captain and such not petty officers) were also said to have trained in the Schola before going to the Naval Academy.
Which actually supports my point, of the Scholam being a school rather than the entirety of the training system before full service, and I thank you on that :D

however, I don't see the need for the Imperium to remove the children from their families. It's not as if they can't claim them at a later date, after all. The Scholasta is in fact as much a propaganda tool with a secondary practical function as anything else (look at us! we're nice!) in the same way as the Sororitas Orders Hospitalar.

And deuterium is heavy hydrogen, one proton and one neutron, which is a component of H22O (blast the lack of sub and super scripts!) or D2O.

Brusilov
16-07-2005, 21:41
Where did I say that the Shola was the whole curriculum of Imperial servants? It may be the case for Stormtroopers or Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas, but certainly not for Commissars and future officers. These people need further training in strategy and all related topics (economics, history, logistics...) before being able to join the Departmento Munitorum (one of the often forgotten duty of Commissars is to act as liaisons between a regiment and high command, which could mean effectively commanding a regiment when it's composed of backward barbarians who do not understand the finer points of tactics).