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Bra'tac
04-01-2007, 09:53
i know in whfb you cant have larger bases ''unlike 40k''
i'm working on a chariot army but because they are scratch build they ''the chariots/wheels'' dont fit the base.

Now is it ''tournement '' legal to glue something ontop of the base that makes it wider?
the base has to be about 0,5cm wider in al directions.

Briohmar
04-01-2007, 10:33
As far as chariots go, I think the base size is actually just a guidline, because not all chariots fit onto the chariot bases. Try fitting a three wolf chariot on a two animal chariot base. A khorne Daemon Chariot is supposed to be pulled by a 2 Juggers, which would legitimately create a 100mm base, most just model it with 1 Jugger. A Tzeentch chariot pulled by 2 Screamers would be 80mm wide. So there should be no problem going 60mm wide instead of 50. The disadvantage will spill over onto you rather than your opponent as it will give him at least one more figure in contact against you, which I don't think your opponent would mind.

T10
04-01-2007, 10:58
I'm not aware of any rules regarding base sizes in 7th edition.

There are certain conventions, e.g. 20 or 25 mm bases for US 1 infantry and fliers, cavalry bases for, uh, non-flying cavalry, 40mm bases for US 3 infantry, 50 mm for monsters and 50x100mm for chariots.

But that's just because it makes sense and people generally agree.

-T10

Festus
04-01-2007, 11:27
Hi

I'm not aware of any rules regarding base sizes in 7th edition.
But there still are rules regarding Base size:

Cavalry has to go on 25x50, Ogresized have to go on 40x40, Infantry is on 20x20 or 25x25 respectively, Chariots are on 50x100, etc.

All those can be found on p.7 of the BRB.

FEstus

Flame
04-01-2007, 11:33
As far as chariots go, I think the base size is actually just a guidline, because not all chariots fit onto the chariot bases. Try fitting a three wolf chariot on a two animal chariot base. A khorne Daemon Chariot is supposed to be pulled by a 2 Juggers, which would legitimately create a 100mm base, most just model it with 1 Jugger. A Tzeentch chariot pulled by 2 Screamers would be 80mm wide. So there should be no problem going 60mm wide instead of 50. The disadvantage will spill over onto you rather than your opponent as it will give him at least one more figure in contact against you, which I don't think your opponent would mind.


Demon Legions are one of the few races that actually specify the base sizes for its units- in this case the chariots base size changed depending on the amount of creatures pulling it.

Briohmar
04-01-2007, 11:38
Except in the case of conversions or some of the examples I just gave. Not all Ogre sized models go on 40X40 either. Tyrants and maneaters go on 50X50 bases, and they are ogre sized. SOme things just have to be exceptions. In 6th ed, I played with a chariot on a 75X100 base, and nobody ever gave it any grief, in point, Jervis and Gav awarded me best army at a tourney that I was using it. Just treat it as a guideline and be as close as you can, but people will accept it if you have to go over, especially for a nice conversion piece, or a scratch built as you say.

Festus
04-01-2007, 11:41
Hi

Not all Ogre sized models go on 40X40 either. Tyrants and maneaters go on 50X50 bases, and they are ogre sized. SOme things just have to be exceptions.
Which Ogre Army do you play???

The only Ogre on 50x50 is the Hunter, to rank up with his cats...

Festus

Flame
04-01-2007, 11:47
It is to stop people from bending the rules for stuff such as terror.

For chariots, a wider base gives a larger charge arc, and a longer one increases the range of terror/bsb/spell ranges.

Just dont do it. They are there for a reason.

Briohmar
04-01-2007, 11:48
So then, the hunter is an illegal model? He is Ogre sized, so therefore must be on a 40X40 base or are we still stuck on RAW. I don't have my book here, but I still say its a guidline. Would you refuse to play against someone who had a beautiful converted chariot because its base was 60mm wide instead of 50? I surely wouldn't. I would ooh and ahh at a wonderful model, and appreciate the game more against someone who felt inclined to take the extra time to personalize his army. Look at some of the armies that win GTs, I would argue that not all of those armies follow exactly the model base sizes. Close is good enough.

Briohmar
04-01-2007, 11:56
It is to stop people from bending the rules for stuff such as terror.

For chariots, a wider base gives a larger charge arc, and a longer one increases the range of terror/bsb/spell ranges.

Just dont do it. They are there for a reason.

I just want to ask you, have you ever tried to put certain chariots on the official chariot base? some of them just refuse to fit. The official chariot base came out with the TK army, and it fits a TK chariot, but not an Orc chariot, a DE chariot, a Mortal Chaos Chariot, etc. I also believe that the Black coach is also too long. If there were no room for exception, then GW needs to change some of their models, and none of them would be allowed.

Flame
04-01-2007, 12:00
All of those three examples fit fine.

The Black coach is an exception, but then I think it was forgotten about in the base size chart.

Would you like to play against someone that put the 'beautifully' modelled black coach on a 400*400 base and consequently tried to claim terror from all parts within 6"?

Briohmar
04-01-2007, 12:08
I'm not talking about blatant violations to break the rules, I'm talking about minor differences. I am talking about the hobby aspect of the game and not every model conforming exactly to every other one. As to an Orc chariot, if you assemble the model directly out of the box, it requires 53mm of base as there is an inherent gap because of the construction of the model itself between the bases of the two boars, granted its not a large gap, but it is a gap. therefore the Orc chariot as it comes is not a legal model by this argument unless you chop the slotta base part off of each boar and buy different bases, ones without slots, and then the chariot would fit on 50X100. I can't believe that this is the intent however, if it was, those bases would be included in the model, along with different instructions for assembly.

T10
04-01-2007, 12:12
Hi

All those can be found on p.7 of the BRB.



Proves I need to read stuff in the beginning of the book as well as the stuff that tells me how to hit enemy in close combat!

-T10

Festus
04-01-2007, 12:57
Hi

So then, the hunter is an illegal model? He is Ogre sized, so therefore must be on a 40X40 base or are we still stuck on RAW. I don't have my book here, but I still say its a guidline.
The book tells us what goes where, so it is a rule, noting more, nothing less...

Would you refuse to play against someone who had a beautiful converted chariot because its base was 60mm wide instead of 50? I surely wouldn't. I would ooh and ahh at a wonderful model, and appreciate the game more against someone who felt inclined to take the extra time to personalize his army. Look at some of the armies that win GTs, I would argue that not all of those armies follow exactly the model base sizes.No, I would not refuse to play against such an army or player, just the oposite. I gladly play with nice people who have nice armies, no matter the base size. I never even said otherwise, I just gave the rules... :eyebrows:

But that's besides the point. The point is that the OP asked for tournament legal bases and as nice as those Gav and Jervis blokes are, they are not the tournament refs or organizers of the world. Far from it.

Tournament legal is strictly following the rules. The rules is clear: Chariots go on 50x100, and can vary in the case of special circumstances - Daemonic Chariots are one, three draughtanimals are another, and the Black Coach has simply been forgotten (again), as it is too long...


Close is good enough.

Yes, for gaming, close is good enough. It usually is easy to tell how large a chariot is anyways and it will hardly be gamebreaking. But one could avoid any fuss just by either using the right base from the start, or showing where the right basesize is, by markers on the base, or an empty base for combat purposes when it counts.

Greetings
Festus

Braad
04-01-2007, 15:50
I read a document about this from the UK website. It was posted here at warseer some days ago I believe...

A chariot normally has to be fitten on a 50x100 mm base. contrary to what someone said somewhere in this thread, a wolf chariot that has three wolves pulling has to be placed on a 75x100 mm base. It also says a elven chariot pulled by four horses has to be on a 100x100 mm base.
So there are rules for chariot bases.

Let me see if I can find the document somewhere...

Ah here: http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammer/base-chart/1/
I don't really know if it's up to date (new O&G units are not present), but I also can't think of any reason why they would change this for chariots...
Sounds logical IMHO.

Briohmar
04-01-2007, 16:23
Well, I'm home from work now, and I can admit that I was wrong: The Orc chariot is 52mm wide, not 53. ;-)

Festus
04-01-2007, 17:17
Hi

Well, I'm home from work now, and I can admit that I was wrong: The Orc chariot is 52mm wide, not 53. ;-)
Funny that you mention it, as mine is 82 mm wide, including the blades. But it nonetheless perfectly fits on a 50x100 base...

...while we are at it, my horses are all about 55 to 56mm long, but they seem to fit on a standard 25x50 base just fine.

And don't even get me started on my Banshee, who measures a fat 38mm but fits a 20x20mm base!

And?

TheWarSmith
04-01-2007, 17:57
Try fitting a three wolf chariot on a two animal chariot base. A khorne Daemon Chariot is supposed to be pulled by a 2 Juggers, which would legitimately create a 100mm base, most just model it with 1 Jugger. A Tzeentch chariot pulled by 2 Screamers would be 80mm wide. mind.

Actually, I believe the rules for khorne daemon chariots specifically state that if there are 2 juggers, it's 100mm wide, same with nurgle ones.

I made a Tzeentch chariot and it EASILY fits on a 50x50, because i didn't simply take 2 screamer bases and slap them next to each other.

Briohmar
04-01-2007, 18:43
It does cause one to wonder, though. I used half movement trays as the bases for my wolf chariots which on the inside are 50 X 100, but on the outside are 52 by 104, does that mean they're illegal in the game? I mean if rules as read, which by my definition means GW game designers just will not admit to their own mistakes rather than trying to correct them, is what we have to play, then all movement trays are also illegal as that extra 4 mm on each tray may give someone a tactical advantage. I'm sorry, but I'm being pragmatic here. The 52 mm I was talking about on the orc chariot was from boar base to boar base, not counting the scythes. The original question was, if the guy made a scratch built chariot that came out to just over 50mm I mean really we're talking about less than a quarter of an inch, would it be legal. I still contend that it would be, as it is in the spirit of the game to create and convert models. Apparently I'm wrong, and all chariots that are 51mm wide are now unusable. I understand Flame's argument about a 400mm square base, but how many chariots actually cause terror? just one that I can think of, and the 50 x 100 rule doesn't even apply to it.
If a tournament organiser told me I couldn't use a model that I had painstakingly converted because it was 4mm too wide, I would likely beat him liberally about the head and shoulders with his own rule book until he admitted he was a *****, and then I'd leave.

Briohmar
04-01-2007, 19:55
Hi

But there still are rules regarding Base size:

Cavalry has to go on 25x50, Ogresized have to go on 40x40, Infantry is on 20x20 or 25x25 respectively, Chariots are on 50x100, etc.

All those can be found on p.7 of the BRB.

FEstus

Aha!!! You're wrong. Rules as written on page 7. "Chariots are normally mounted on a 50mm by 100mm base." This does not say they must be. Therefore, ny interpretation is correct, and he can go above the 50mm width. Al of the other types specify they must be mounted on x by y base, but not chariots.

Festus
04-01-2007, 20:52
Hi

Aha!!! You're wrong. Rules as written on page 7. "Chariots are normally mounted on a 50mm by 100mm base." This does not say they must be. Therefore, ny interpretation is correct, and he can go above the 50mm width. Al of the other types specify they must be mounted on x by y base, but not chariots.
I won't start to teach the finer points of the English language to you here, but *normally* normally means *in usual cases*, *in most cases*.
There are exceptions (like the aforementioned Daemonic Chariots of Nurgle and Khorne, or chariots with three or four animals...), of course. Note, however, that there are no exceptions for Cavalry for example.

We are splitting hairs here, though: A chariot belongs on a 50x100 base and will be played as such under normal circumstances. If your base is 52 or 49mm is not important.

If your chariot touches my Orcs, it can contact up to 4, and up to 4 of my Gobbos - and vice versa.

As soon as you start to claim that your chariot can only be attacked by 3 Chaos Warriors, because it is 49mm wide, you have one angry customer :D

The same will happen if you tell me that you can contact 5 Gobbos becaus your chariotbase is 61mm wide.

It may not seem to be much of a difference, but tell that to the Chaos Player with the Berserker Sword on a chariot... 100x100 chariotbase anyone ;)

Festus

edit: BTW: The edit-button is there for a few reasons. Among others, to avoid double posting...

Bra'tac
05-01-2007, 00:04
i have to make 10 chariots in this way.
they are al pulled by a rhinox and from scratch, ''to fit an ogre''.



What if the kork/plasticard or whatever on my chariot base is wider then the base itself...
and i measure from the original?50X100 then al problems are solved right?
i make a little scenic base but measure from the original...

Festus
05-01-2007, 00:11
Hi

so...What if the kork on my chariot base is wider then the base itself...
and i measure from the original?50-100 then al problems are solved right?
i make a little scenic base but measure from the original...
Not the slightest bit of problems can be anticipated with that, not even in the strictest of tournaments. :)

Good luck with your chariot!

Festus

Crazy Harborc
05-01-2007, 01:06
IMHO, a custom made chariot should be able to fit on the SAME size base as the official GW chariot. For tournies/official events the "normal sizes" are considered to be the required base sizes. Actually, make that the event judges have the final word......contact them.

By the by......I don't care as long as the base used looks good. If it's alittle too big oh well. If it's too small...........I'll loan you a correct full size base for the model....we'll tackie it on the correct base.:)

Palatine Katinka
05-01-2007, 02:03
Rhinox chariots? curious as to what they would count as before considering base size. Would it be possible to custom a base 50mm at the front (relevant for charging etc.) but wider at the back? A "T" shape.

Briohmar
05-01-2007, 04:06
Hi

I won't start to teach the finer points of the English language to you here, but *normally* normally means *in usual cases*, *in most cases*.
There are exceptions (like the aforementioned Daemonic Chariots of Nurgle and Khorne, or chariots with three or four animals...), of course. Note, however, that there are no exceptions for Cavalry for example.

Or normally can mean that it *is a recognized convention* that most gamers do so, but it is not required. I'm awake, and fresh now after a good nights sleep and have no desire to argue further, so I will close with saying this to the original poster: "Go ahead and use your scratch built chariot, Its not, in strictest terms, against the rules, and it is in keeping with the spirit of the game and the hobby. Make sure you play to have fun."

Bra'tac
05-01-2007, 09:10
Rhinox chariots? curious as to what they would count as before considering base size. Would it be possible to custom a base 50mm at the front (relevant for charging etc.) but wider at the back? A "T" shape.

the rhinox will count as two chaos steeds either by heaving two heads or someother way.
the drivers wil be gnoblars and the non driver warriors ogres.